Quote from: Ladybird;566359Gonna have to disagree with you there, too.

Sadly, I can't type on some days. I meant that I in part only agreed with his first point. I've corrected the post you replied to and apologize for the original error.


Beyond that, I'm not interested in your opinion of the detail and balance of the Shadowrun character creation as you're already on record as claiming to to be incapable of using it. Tough to take statements of balance seriously from such a person.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;566120So, you just suck at making 4e characters. Is that it?

I don't have a clue to what you're even trying to imply with such a odd statement (given that I'm claiming SR 4E has easy and straight forward character generation).

Quote from: gleichman;566371I don't have a clue to what you're even trying to imply with such a odd statement (given that I'm claiming SR 4E has easy and straight forward character generation).

I just thought after reading your posts that I'd be free to say stupid stuff with the authority of an asshat. So, that's not the direction of the thread?

Quote from: silva;5661251. lack of transparency on sucess rolls. (dice pools + varying target numbers)

As a new GM, this can be an issue with 4e, even more so with 2/3 and even more so with 1st.  

1e had the problem of varying stages, that was very hard to gauge.  8S4 vs. 10M2, which is likely to do more damage on average? :banghead:

2e and 3e however were easier, and from a player's standpoint, how transparent does it need to be?  The GM tells you what you need and you roll.  Since you're using a d6, it's pretty obvious that higher than 6 is pretty hard, and higher than 12 is really damn hard.  

I vastly prefer 2/3e's method to the cartload of dice method of 4e.

Quote from: silva;5661252. ridiculously boring char creation (here take these 400 pts and distribute among these hundreds of options... and dont forget to calc all total ratings, essence and ending money in the process )

I don't like point-buy much, however, I don't find it difficult, just evaluating all the options can be daunting for the newbies.  If I wanted point-buy though, I'd do GURPS Cyberpunk.  

Quote from: silva;5661253. too much sub-systems trying to simulate things that adds near to nothing to the game premise.

The only real sub-system that seems to crawl up people's backsides is the Matrix rules, no matter what edition, and to be honest, they were never a problem for me in any editon.  Are they a mini-game? Sure.  But since my non-decker players could have their asses in a sling if the Decker hosed up, they were usually gathered around cheering the Decker on.

Astral Quests seem to be less exciting to watch then Decking runs

Spoiler

unless of course you're doing Harlequin's Back where everyone joins in the fun.

although if your life depends on the Shaman summoning a Great Form spirit because nothing else has a chance of getting you out of the Drek you just dropped yourself in, then again, my players found it pretty interesting.

If your players are the types that tune out the second they aren't front and center, well you can have them.

Any "streamlining" of the 4e system comes with a generic vanilla make-over that wiped all style from the original rules.  Magic for example.  Oh, no grounding now, it was way too mean *sniff*.  All magic is the same now, Traditions are just groups of options, bleah.  The only single cool thing about the entire 4e magic system spread over how many books is that Traditions have different Drain stats.  That's it, the rest is pap.  

Don't even get me started on the Matrix stuff, it's even worse and brings to the fore another problem with 4e, that it was made by people who didn't like the earlier editions.  "Oh, cyberdecks, how quaint *giggle*".  To me, having a decker use DNI to interface his brain with an electronic system is a little more high-tech and cool then having a script kiddie watching a Minority Report HUD using a fragging glove.

Quote from: CRKrueger;566393I don't like point-buy much, however, I don't find it difficult, just evaluating all the options can be daunting for the newbies.  If I wanted point-buy though, I'd do GURPS Cyberpunk.  

Gurps is where it's at. Shadowrun 4e point buy is just boring in a way I've never experienced before.

Quote from: CRKrueger;566393If your players are the types that tune out the second they aren't front and center, well you can have them.

This is another common issue (at least online at sites like this one) that one sees complaints about. Many are incapable of being interested in a RPG unless they personally have the spotlight.

Myself, I'm happy to show up at a session where I don't have anything to do other than cheer the other players on. It's a great deal of fun really.

Quote from: CRKrueger;566393All magic is the same now, Traditions are just groups of options, bleah.

I think this was driven more by the raging Political Correctness that started with SR 1st edition and grew with each additional book. For a setting that is all about the dysfunction of civilization, Shadowrun is all about everybody and everything be 'valid' and equal.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;566401Gurps is where it's at. Shadowrun 4e point buy is just boring in a way I've never experienced before.

I do like GURPS point buy better.  Whether you prefer it or not, they've pretty much perfected it.

Quote from: gleichman;566404I think this was driven more by the raging Political Correctness that started with SR 1st edition and grew with each additional book. For a setting that is all about the dysfunction of civilization, Shadowrun is all about everybody and everything be 'valid' and equal.

Which is extremely odd to me, because taking a specific cultural magic tradition like summoning of Ancestor Spirits and having it be no different then other spirit summoning, equalizes by diminishment.

Shadowrun is a setting wherein magic came back, and Injuns reclaimed a big chunk of the US with mysterious tribal magic. I was a conservative Republican during the time I played Shadowrun the most (I was also too young to  vote) and it never got me prickly about political correctness. I find the idea somewhat silly.

Quote from: gleichman;566367Sadly, I can't type on some days. I meant that I in part only agreed with his first point. I've corrected the post you replied to and apologize for the original error.

Fair enough. I do think 4 is simpler - 1/3 of dice should score a hit, on average, so the difficulty curve is dead easy to extrapolate - but it's not a huge issue for me.

QuoteBeyond that, I'm not interested in your opinion of the detail and balance of the Shadowrun character creation as you're already on record as claiming to to be incapable of using it. Tough to take statements of balance seriously from such a person.

I said I was unhappy about doing so, not unwilling to do so. It's tough to take attempts at admonishment seriously from people who can't tell the difference.

SR4's shit character gen system doesn't stop me enjoying the game.

Quote from: Ladybird;566414I said I was unhappy about doing so, not unwilling to do so. It's tough to take attempts at admonishment seriously from people who can't tell the difference.

'Can't Do', and 'Dislike Doing' often end up much the same. I wouldn't trust the judgement of anyone suffering from either problem.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;566410Shadowrun is a setting wherein magic came back, and Injuns reclaimed a big chunk of the US with mysterious tribal magic. I was a conservative Republican during the time I played Shadowrun the most (I was also too young to  vote) and it never got me prickly about political correctness. I find the idea somewhat silly.

I don't really care about the political correctness itself, just the disconnect between the setting convention of a world in social decline on one hand, and a presentation that's nearly a Leftist's PC dream come true on the other.

But it's easy enough to steal ideas and rework the setting. But does limit what I buy from them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;566409Which is extremely odd to me, because taking a specific cultural magic tradition like summoning of Ancestor Spirits and having it be no different then other spirit summoning, equalizes by diminishment.

Well yes, but that's the price of making everything valid and equal isn't it?

It also plays into the modern tendency for universal mechanical resolution (although SR doesn't eat the whole cake here at least). Every is resolved the same dull way even if they should be different in result and process.

Quote from: gleichman;566433I don't really care about the political correctness itself, just the disconnect between the setting convention of a world in social decline on one hand, and a presentation that's nearly a Leftist's PC dream come true on the other.

But it's easy enough to steal ideas and rework the setting. But does limit what I buy from them.

IME Shadowrun is a world where megacorporations own almost everything, and even those who are outcasts from and rebels against the megacorporate monoculture are forced to make their living serving the corporations' whims. I don't see how that's a leftist dream, except insofar as Shadowrun's setting is a half-decent illustration of the communist principle that capitalism is bad because it forces you to participate in its system even if you would like to opt out.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;566452I don't see how that's a leftist dream, except insofar as Shadowrun's setting is a half-decent illustration of the communist principle that capitalism is bad because it forces you to participate in its system even if you would like to opt out.

That's a start. Open the books and start reading. You'll find many other examples.