Quote from: Ladybird;565797Actually, you're right; I'm not moving a few points to make a man, I'm moving thousands of "points" to help make a global company.

Sounds cool, where do I sign up?

Quote from: warp9;565812Sounds cool, where do I sign up?

Here.


( )

Quote from: gleichman;565810If you're unable to enjoy a simple process that's likely oh, a thousand time simpler than your work (and thus should be almost unnoticed)- that's all your problem.

I'll just sit here and laugh at how limited you are and that will be that.

And I'll sit back and laugh at your lack of understanding of the concept of a "leisure activity", or something that someone may do to "relax".

Quote from: Ladybird;565815And I'll sit back and laugh at your lack of understanding of the concept of a "leisure activity", or something that someone may do to "relax".

I sorry, but 'relax' and lazy really shouldn't be used together in my world view. But if that's what floats your boat- go sailing.

I myself want more energy and involvement from people I game with. People willing to make a effort you know. And able to do basic addition too without crying while they're at it.

Its a little known fact that Gleichman also pisses his pants with glee whenever he receives the long-form tax return in the mail.

RPGPundit

Quote from: gleichman;565775That something as easy and straight forward as Shadowrun 4E character generation can stymie grown men baffles me. But it seems a very common characteristic of gamers who post online.

So, you just suck at making 4e characters. Is that it?

So, we can agree on the 3 main problems of Shadowrun being....

1. lack of transparency on sucess rolls. (dice pools + varying target numbers)

2. ridiculously boring char creation (here take these 400 pts and distribute among these hundreds of options... and dont forget to calc all total ratings, essence and ending money in the process )

3. too much sub-systems trying to simulate things that adds near to nothing to the game premise.

....or something like that ?

Quote from: gleichmanI myself want more energy and involvement from people I game with. People willing to make a effort you know. And able to do basic addition too without crying while they're at it.

And I see no problem with that. In fact, I also prefer gaming with people that participate pro-actively in the game. But theres no need to insult others because they have a different opinion from you, man. Ladybird was kind and polite on his (her?) remarks, and you tried to inferiorize it. Shame on you.

Quote from: silva;566125So, we can agree on the 3 main problems of Shadowrun being....

1. lack of transparency on sucess rolls. (dice pools + varying target numbers)

This is no longer accurate, as the TN is always 5-6 on the dice. If you mean varying needs for different success levels, I'd agree with you.

Quote from: silva;566125So, we can agree on the 3 main problems of Shadowrun being....

I agree only with your First point (and 4th edition reduced that problem compared to previous versions).

Quote from: silva;566125And I see no problem with that. In fact, I also prefer gaming with people that participate pro-actively in the game. But theres no need to insult others because they have a different opinion from you, man. Ladybird was kind and polite on his (her?) remarks, and you tried to inferiorize it. Shame on you.

Lack of ability (or motivation) to handle simple systems shouldn't be praised.

And my comments weren't directed solely at Ladybird- but to Pundit and all the others who can't deal with simple rules and thus spend their time knocking perfectly playable and enjoyable games.

Quote from: gleichman;566308I agree only with your second point (and 4th edition reduced that problem compared to previous versions).



Lack of ability (or motivation) to handle simple systems shouldn't be praised.

And my comments weren't directed solely at Ladybird- but to Pundit and all the others who can't deal with simple rules and thus spend their time knocking perfectly playable and enjoyable games.

Your misplaced and unjustified sense of superiority is showing.

Quote from: gleichman;566308And my comments weren't directed solely at Ladybird- but to Pundit and all the others who can't deal with simple rules and thus spend their time knocking perfectly playable and enjoyable games.

Ouch, ouch, ouch.

Quote from: Ladybird;565815And I'll sit back and laugh at your lack of understanding of the concept of a "leisure activity", or something that someone may do to "relax".

When I was a teenager, I think we spent more time creating Shadowrun characters than we did playing Shadowrun, in 2e and 3e. (I'm not saying 4e is better at character creation. On reflection, I think any game that tracks your personal assets down to the dollar nuyen and asks you to pay individually for every magazine of ammo, ration bar, and month of prepaid rent is asking for trouble.)

Quote from: Halloween Jack;566323When I was a teenager, I think we spent more time creating Shadowrun characters than we did playing Shadowrun, in 2e and 3e. (I'm not saying 4e is better at character creation. On reflection, I think any game that tracks your personal assets down to the dollar nuyen and asks you to pay individually for every magazine of ammo, ration bar, and month of prepaid rent is asking for trouble.)

I've had similar experiences. The thing that kills me is that all that bean counting really doesn't mean as much as you think it would in actual play. I mean, I don't think I've ever had a character run out of ammo or fail to eat.

I never played CP2020, but it settled for giving PCs a Wealth rating and that worked out fine, didn't it? Although maybe it tracked equipment bits just as closely as SR; I don't know.

Quote from: gleichman;566308I agree only with your second point (and 4th edition reduced that problem compared to previous versions).

Gonna have to disagree with you there, too.

Priorities weren't balanced (Why would you ever skimp on cash? In a gear-based game, cash is just another form of XP), but they worked and gave some focus to the chargen process. The multiple, smaller pools of points were easier to handle, too, because they were small and basically only spent on one thing. There's no budgeting minigame, so it's faster to create a character.

Now, SR4's points system allows for Skill Groups, which are great, and Ads/Disads, which are fine. SR4 does have the PACKS, which are bundles of stuff and help a bit, but I don't feel that they add enough to the game in actual play; SR4 runs great because of the improved system, not because of the character gen.