I hear complaints about the Shadowrun system everywhere I go – some say its unnecessarily complex, others say it tries to address the wrong things, etc. and I kind of agree with those.

So, first: what are the system´s problems to you ? And second: if you were the new SR lead designer and were tasked to redesign it as you see fit, what would you do ?

It seems to me that since Shadowrun defined both it's setting and it's mechanics in a single book, that it's impossible for those not to be in sync by definition.

Anyone thinking that it fails to address much of anything is likely wanting a different game that they're are incorrectly calling Shadowrun.

But that point aside...

Early (1st through 3rd) editions used a dice pool mechanic that made it very difficult for players and GMs to know the real odds behind any in game resolution. Often things were far more difficult or easier than they would imagine, thus many actions that sound reasonable ended up being counter-productive at best.

The mechanics were also rather complex, with both the number of dice and target numbers changing depending upon specific game conditions.

4th edition corrected this to some degree (with fixed target numbers inside the normal dice range), but it's still more difficult to detemine the actual odds than IMO a RPG system should be. But all in all improved and I haven't heard much complaint about 4th edition mechanically- instead I've heard issues with presentation (compared to previous editions) and setting changes.

That said (i.e. few complaints about the mechanics), we still use HERO for our re-imagined Shadowrun games. Even improved, I think the actual games mechanics are a failure.

Quote from: silva;565271So, first: what are the system´s problems to you ?

Complexity... or maybe just "weight". What do I mean?

I learned SR under 1st edition, and made the jump to second. Now, I find myself wanting to run an SR4A campaign, but I'm starting from scratch. I know little about the 4th edition.

And it's big. Nearly 400 pages of big. 400 Build Points of big. 5 (or 6) Core Rulebooks of big. An intricate rules set for each subsystem (Magic, Matrix, etc.), and there's a lot of them.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the rules. Magical Traditions, to pick a random element, are simply better under 4A.

(Though I read that the Matrix rules are borked. "Agent Smith" and what not.)

But it's a lot of work to learn, and I just don't want to do it. I'm strongly considering running it with Savage Worlds, because that's a system I already know.

Learning the game feels like work. And it shouldn't.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;565276Complexity... or maybe just "weight". What do I mean?

I learned SR under 1st edition, and made the jump to second. Now, I find myself wanting to run an SR4A campaign, but I'm starting from scratch. I know little about the 4th edition.

And it's big. Nearly 400 pages of big. 400 Build Points of big. 5 (or 6) Core Rulebooks of big. An intricate rules set for each subsystem (Magic, Matrix, etc.), and there's a lot of them.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the rules. Magical Traditions, to pick a random element, are simply better under 4A.

(Though I read that the Matrix rules are borked. "Agent Smith" and what not.)

But it's a lot of work to learn, and I just don't want to do it. I'm strongly considering running it with Savage Worlds, because that's a system I already know.

Learning the game feels like work. And it shouldn't.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

I thought it was just me. I have been attempting to learn the SR4A rules after not running it since 2e, but it's seeming to be pretty overwhelming. Finding myself wanting to just give up and run ACKs or 1e or BRP instead.

Surprisingly, I like light games, and yet Shadowrun is light enough in play to be enjoyable, but far crunchier in game setup. Which is problematic.

I fixed the rules a bit mostly by streamlining hacking to fit the stat+skill+gear mechanic that everything else uses, pretty much. Its a notable exception that just doesn't work me either mechanically nor genre wise. Since I feel hackers are spinning out programs as needed in such a setting.

My fixes would be focused on mostly streamlining everything, and perhaps compressing the scale a bit. Maybe. Collapse 1-3 skill/attribute into a value of 1, and cut things down a bit along the scale. Reducing the dice rolled, and simplifying the complexity would work for making the game more controlled.  Other than that keep it simple stupid would be my mantra.

It just sucks. Character creation absolutely sucks with its whole "here's 400 points for you to spend among 8000 different options" bullshit.
Actual play utterly sucks with the whole "you have 9 base dice, versus a difficulty of 4; but the wall is there, so that's +2 to the difficulty and its foggy so that's two less dice, but then you have the cybernetic enhancement so you get 5 more dice from that, and you're using the special scope on the rifle so you get -3 to the difficulty, and Mercury is Retrograde In Taurus so there's +2 dice there, but its the Second Tuesday before Lent so you get a +3 to your difficulty..."

Its shit.

RPGPundit

I recall having problems with the 1st Shadowrun. Mostly to do with the Matrix rules. Gave up on it rather than having to try and explain it to my group. Their main question would have been 'why are we wasting time with this shit?' and I'd be hard pressed to answer, even if the setting did seem intriguing at the time (elves, orcs, dwarves, dragons in a sci fi setting).

There must be plenty of people who love it though, as it managed 4 editions so far, and a very successful kickstarter for a video game not so long since.

Quote from: RPGPundit;565673It just sucks. Character creation absolutely sucks with its whole "here's 400 points for you to spend among 8000 different options" bullshit.

Yeah, this. I don't have an objection to points-based systems due to the maths; I work in finance and study maths in my free time, addition / subtraction / multiplication isn't a problem. No, I object to spending my free time on an exercise which looks pretty fucking similar to filling out a cashflow forecast, but is even less entertaining. Priorities had smaller pools and more interesting decisions to make; the points-based system is a failed improvement.

In play, it works fine, and AE is simpler than 3 due to the fixed target numbers and simpler difficulty mechanics. But that character creation is a mess.

That something as easy and straight forward as Shadowrun 4E character generation can stymie grown men baffles me. But it seems a very common characteristic of gamers who post online.

Quote from: gleichman;565775That something as easy and straight forward as Shadowrun 4E character generation can stymie grown men baffles me. But it seems a very common characteristic of gamers who post online.

It's not that I can't do that sort of thing. It's my day job.

I simply don't want to, because it's my fucking day job and I would like to do something else in my free time. It takes longer and doesn't create more playable characters than Priorities did.

Quote from: Ladybird;565779It's not that I can't do that sort of thing. It's my day job.

I seriously doubt you day job consists of spending a few points to make a character. If you think they are that similar both in process and ends, you likely need a change of profession to something a bit more demanding I think.

QuoteI seriously doubt you day job consists of spending a few points to make a character.

The problem is when "spending a few points to make a character" takes from 45 minutes to 1 hour and you didnt even get to the slowest part that is choosing gears and spells and armor and implants and lifestyle and credsticks and contacts from huge lists and calculating the respective essence and ratings and price of all this and deducting of a total and.. and you realize those 4 hours you had to play the game with your friends are now just 1 hour because you just wasted 3 hours just creating a character.

Quote from: silva;565788The problem is when "spending a few points to make a character" takes from 45 minutes to 1 hour and you didnt even get to the slowest part that is choosing gears and spells and armor and implants and lifestyle and credsticks and contacts from huge lists and calculating the respective essence and ratings and price of all this and deducting of a total and.. and you realize those 4 hours you had to play the game with your friends are now just 1 hour because you just wasted 3 hours just creating a character.

If it takes you 3 hours to create a character in Shadowrun 4E, and if you in addition insist that you do so during play time...

...nevermind. If that is what it takes you to do something that quick and easy, there is nothing for me to say. You have to work within the limits that bound you.

Quote from: gleichman;565782I seriously doubt you day job consists of spending a few points to make a character. If you think they are that similar both in process and ends, you likely need a change of profession to something a bit more demanding I think.

Actually, you're right; I'm not moving a few points to make a man, I'm moving thousands of "points" to help make a global company.

I get paid to do one, and I'm happy with that. I have to pay to do the other one, and I'm not happy with that.

Quote from: Ladybird;565797I get paid to do one, and I'm happy with that. I have to pay to do the other one, and I'm not happy with that.

If you're unable to enjoy a simple process that's likely oh, a thousand time simpler than your work (and thus should be almost unnoticed)- that's all your problem.

I'll just sit here and laugh at how limited you are and that will be that.