Having played and loved Shadowrun Returns, I quite fancy playing me some tabletop Shadowrun, but golly gee there's a confusing heap of editions out there. How do the different editions compare?
1st Edition - Glorious Mess
2nd Edition - The Best
3rd Edition - Like GURPS, HERO or 3.5 with all options
4th Edition - Boy do I miss the FASA guys.
Quote from: CRKrueger1st Edition - Glorious Mess
2nd Edition - The Best
3rd Edition - Like GURPS, HERO or 3.5 with all options
4th Edition - Boy do I miss the FASA guys.
Ditto.
Why is it the best?
Quote from: Bobloblah;675951Why is it the best?
The system is clunky but it's relatively straightforward to learn, the book is well presented, and the decking system is probably the best ever put in a cyberpunk game.
1e 2e and 3e a very similar in style and increasingly complicated to play as the editions go up. 3e is especially fiddly and easily broken by a min-maxing player. I agree that out of these 3, 2e is probably the best of the bunch. They are all kind of messy as far as rulesets go.
4e is a total revamp that is much, MUCH easier to run and play. However, the setting changed pretty significantly...mostly to handle gameplay issues that arose with the previous versions of the game (primarily with the Matrix and Rigging) and to incorporate more modern views of future technology. As usual, some people don't like the changes to the setting, but it is, in my opinion, the best version of the game to date.
The just released 5e is a revision of the 4e system and setting. I have not played it, but CGL has a free quickstart here: http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/products/introductory-products/
Quote from: CRKrueger;6758871st Edition - Glorious Mess
2nd Edition - The Best
3rd Edition - Like GURPS, HERO or 3.5 with all options
4th Edition - Boy do I miss the FASA guys.
Very well put.
edit:
I think there is some parallel with D&D/AD&D. 4e seemed to be designed for people who didn't like Shadowrun. If it's easier to play, why is the rulebook so much bigger? 1e/2e SR were in a fairly slim book and the basics were very simple
Quote from: CRKrueger;6758871st Edition - Glorious Mess
2nd Edition - The Best
3rd Edition - Like GURPS, HERO or 3.5 with all options
4th Edition - Boy do I miss the FASA guys.
Short and sweet.
5e's also out now, the general consensus seems to be that it is everything 4e should have been. My friend, who has for years now stuck with 3e, has told me to go ahead and learn 5e for his new campaign.
Quote from: LibraryLass;6760275e's also out now, the general consensus seems to be that it is everything 4e should have been. My friend, who has for years now stuck with 3e, has told me to go ahead and learn 5e for his new campaign.
That does sound promising... I still think the setting is the best part of the game but decent rules would be a nice plus.
I skimmed the 5e PDF but to be honest, it somehow just didn't grab me.
I think what I may do, since I've no real attachment to the particulars, is put together some decking/cyberware house rules for Arcana Rising and run that at some point in the future.
Quote from: J Arcane;676122I think what I may do, since I've no real attachment to the particulars, is put together some decking/cyberware house rules for Arcana Rising and run that at some point in the future.
Easy for you to say.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;676123Easy for you to say.
:D Being a games writer has its perks. ;) I promise to share them when I'm done.
Hm. Based on the advice I've had here and elsewhere I guess part of the decision hinges on how you see the setting. If you consider it to be a warts-and-all descendent of 80s cyberpunk and don't mind that the technology has begun to look dated then it sounds like the pre-4E stuff seems to be the best bet, whereas 4E and onwards seems concerned with updating the setting to make it seem less dated, which I'd worry would come at the cost of ceasing to resemble the sort of cyberpunk literature the earlier incarnations of the setting (and the videogame) seems to draw on.
Quote from: Warthur;676137Hm. Based on the advice I've had here and elsewhere I guess part of the decision hinges on how you see the setting. If you consider it to be a warts-and-all descendent of 80s cyberpunk and don't mind that the technology has begun to look dated then it sounds like the pre-4E stuff seems to be the best bet, whereas 4E and onwards seems concerned with updating the setting to make it seem less dated, which I'd worry would come at the cost of ceasing to resemble the sort of cyberpunk literature the earlier incarnations of the setting (and the videogame) seems to draw on.
That's probably a fair analysis, I think. 'Going wireless' was a very, very controversial decision, and really sort of defines the split between old and new editions.
Warthur, I think its more than a setting matter: 1st/2nd ed is more akin to O/AD&D in which its more simple and straightforward (aka: gamist), while 4th/5th ed is more akin to GURPS with point-buy and advantages/disadvantages bloat, etc (aka: simulationist).
I think I'll go for 2E then; since I can't really take the setting seriously I'd kind of like to ham up the "people had very inaccurate ideas about how we'd interface with computers in the 1980s" angle from a setting perspective, and from a system perspective I've prefer something nice and simple to something built around character optimisation (not least because I don't expect to use it for more than the occasional one-shot).
Quote from: Warthur;676142I think I'll go for 2E then; since I can't really take the setting seriously I'd kind of like to ham up the "people had very inaccurate ideas about how we'd interface with computers in the 1980s" angle from a setting perspective, and from a system perspective I've prefer something nice and simple to something built around character optimisation (not least because I don't expect to use it for more than the occasional one-shot).
Actually, the funny thing is, other than the dated spec numbers, SR's old system was so good because it far better resembled how an actual network is structured than the silly maze-grids in CP2020.
Of course, for extra irony, the creators of Shadowrun Returns, seeking to work within limits, went with a grid-based combat system for the Matrix. :p
What about the new edition? What does it use?
Wasn't "Shadowrun 2050" the old setting with 4e rules?
Quote from: languagegeek;676226Wasn't "Shadowrun 2050" the old setting with 4e rules?
It was, but it was just a sourcebook, not a complete alternate game unto itself. It even had Dodger and his chummers on the cover.
Quote from: silva;676141Warthur, I think its more than a setting matter: 1st/2nd ed is more akin to O/AD&D in which its more simple and straightforward (aka: gamist), while 4th/5th ed is more akin to GURPS with point-buy and advantages/disadvantages bloat, etc (aka: simulationist).
Ummm...no?
1-3e had an increasingly complex priority-point buy character system. The rulset also got a little strange with 3e but was basically a D6 dice pool game.
4e character creation uses a similar but simplified priority system. 4e rulset, however, is very similar to nWoD with D6s. One of the complaints about 4e was the de-emphasis on gear (similar again to nWoD). It also added the "edge" stat...which was basically like bennies/force/fate points.
Also, and completely irrelevant to your post: One of my favorite things about SR4e rules is that you can critically fail and critically succeed (or just plain succeed) on the same roll.
Krakajak, I think youre confusing things out.
Its 2nd ed that have the more simple, priority-based, character creation. While 4th edition is full GURPS-like point-buy. Also, its 2nd ed who have the more simpler skill packages (like Firearms), while 4th ed has those packages broken down in individual skills (like Pistols, SMGs, Rifles, Shotguns, etc).
Quote from: silva;675949Ditto.
Tripplo.
Quote from: KrakaJak;676293Ummm...no?
1-3e had an increasingly complex priority-point buy character system. The rulset also got a little strange with 3e but was basically a D6 dice pool game.
4e character creation uses a similar but simplified priority system. 4e rulset, however, is very similar to nWoD with D6s. One of the complaints about 4e was the de-emphasis on gear (similar again to nWoD). It also added the "edge" stat...which was basically like bennies/force/fate points.
I think there was an Edge stat in 3E, but I don't have a copy to look at.
QuoteAlso, and completely irrelevant to your post: One of my favorite things about SR4e rules is that you can critically fail and critically succeed (or just plain succeed) on the same roll.
Well, no, you can have a critical glitch if you get at least half of your dice pool as ones AND no successes. But with a "normal" glitch (at least half 1s and at least one success) it is indeed possible to succeed in a task and still have something get incidentally screwed up.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;676341I think there was an Edge stat in 3E, but I don't have a copy to look at.
JG
Nope, it was Karma just like in 1e/2e. What 3e did was breaking down the skills in sub-skills, adding the new knowledge skills, and various adjustments overall (to initiative, pools, matrix, rigging, etc). Most of ´em for the better.
In the end, though, I still prefer the simplicity of 2e.
I wrote my breakdown elsewhere, but I still have a preference for 4E's simplicity and would honestly have liked 5E to simply fix hacking/decking to fit the rest of 4E.
Frankly, I dont understand when people call 4e simple.
It has the worst character creation in terms of simplicity (Gurps-like point-buy)
It has the worst skills structure in terms of simplicity (Gurps-like skills bloat)
It introduces a feats/disads structure that is far from simple (and, once again, Gurps-like in nature).
It introduces even more atributes/stats.
The only thing that is more simple is the resolution with fixed target numbers vs variable ones from old editions. But even then, the structure created around it makes so that the pools of dice are even bigger then old editions.
:confused:
Quote from: silva;676567Frankly, I dont understand when people call 4e simple.
It has the worst character creation in terms of simplicity (Gurps-like point-buy)
It has the worst skills structure in terms of simplicity (Gurps-like skills bloat)
It introduces a feats/disads structure that is far from simple (and, once again, Gurps-like in nature).
It introduces even more atributes/stats.
The only thing that is more simple is the resolution with fixed target numbers vs variable ones from old editions. But even then, the structure created around it makes so that the pools of dice are even bigger then old editions.
:confused:
I am getting the feeling you don't like GURPS!
I find the 4e resolution system easier and that makes my job as GM easier; variable TN is such a pain to nail down. Even with the larger dice pools, the + or - 2 dice shortcut works well for our group. But I definitely agree with you about too many attributes and fiddly chargen.
Point buy isn't that necessarily complex. (It can be and honestly 4E is one of the most complex games I use.)
Disadvantages aren't "new" with 4E per se either, and they make sense for some games. They work, and work well, mind you for Shadowrun.
Resolution IS simpler, and that's where I prefer the simplicity. If I could get Priority chargen, 20a resolutions system, and the 5E hacking rules, it would be perfect.
None of the editions were playable as far as my tastes were concerned, but 1e at least filled me with a sense of novel inspiration.
Im forced to agree with Pundit here. Even if 2nd ed was the one I liked most, the reality is that Shadowrun never had a truly great system. Its convoluted and mathematically broken. Any system out there with half the complexity should give the game a better cost-benefit, from OD&D to BoL to AW.
Yup, I've thought about using a cross of Rolemaster and Cyberspace to play in the Shadowrun setting, because whatever original system you might choose: it has issues.
Another problem I have with Shadowrun is the cyberpunk crossed with fantasy. On the one hand it looks tempting, on the other hand I'm disgusted by it. It's a love-hate thing...???
Nevertheless, I played it for several years: 1E through 3E.
Quote from: Vonn;676876Yup, I've thought about using a cross of Rolemaster and Cyberspace to play in the Shadowrun setting, because whatever original system you might choose: it has issues.
I never saw the SF books for Rolemaster, so do you know if the critical hit tables are just as fun with energy weapons and assault rifles? :D
JG
Quote from: Vonn;676876Another problem I have with Shadowrun is the cyberpunk crossed with fantasy. On the one hand it looks tempting, on the other hand I'm disgusted by it. It's a love-hate thing...???
I thought I was the only who felt that way. Actually, my discontent is limited to running Shadowrun. "Fantasy in MY cyberpunk? Get out you heathen! MY games are pure. Oh, you're running it? I'll be a troll physical adept then."
I have zero explanation for why I feel that way.
I just had the most brilliant idea for a Shadowrun character - a troll that's a hacker, whose sole purpose is to troll corporations.
Quote from: Rincewind1;679486I just had the most brilliant idea for a Shadowrun character - a troll that's a hacker, whose sole purpose is to troll corporations.
Hah. I love it.
Of course Troll in the Machine was an NPC I used to post things to my players with--he was of course not a Troll. But an AI in a Trollcola machine (he hides inside it when not elsewhere.)
Quote from: Rincewind1;679486I just had the most brilliant idea for a Shadowrun character - a troll that's a hacker, whose sole purpose is to troll corporations.
A Troll troll!
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;679694A Troll troll!
On which note: thanks to a certain episode of
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, I've kind of entertained the idea of playing a Troll character in
Shadowrun who refers to his fees as the "troll toll".
"Troll" (in the internet sense) wasn't even a term yet when Shadowrun first came out, I don't think. That somehow makes it more amusing.
RPGPundit
Anyone have any opinions on 5E now that the .pdf is available?
1) Hacking/Decking is improved. There are throwbacks to classic decking though that makes it a minigame again. However, while gear can be hacked. Your own Decker can defend it. The new handling of decking is a win for people who don't think corporations, governments, etc, basically goto the lowest bidder for their stuff, and are super-anal retentive so that only the absolute best runners ever survive to actually run again. Loss: Anyone who realize that sometimes kids with cheap gear can get into so called secure places, like in real life.
2) The Priority system makes chargen a bit faster. Win for people who like characters who are less customized, but quicker to make. Probably combined with one to help make the loss of characters more palatable. Loss: Anyone one who likes a bit more customization/details and choice at chargen.
3) Gear now has a stat that applies in some cases that cause you to lose many of your "hits" in the game. Win: People who think you should always spend the most money to have the best gear. Loss: Everyone else. Seriously, the game makes it so you can't be "skilled" and "talented." Instead you must be rich.
4) Magic gear also use limits, they can force you to take damage when you get to many successes, physical, rather than stun/fatigue damage. Foci are also now likely to be addicting. Win: See 3. Loss: Anyone who likes mages/shamans having a choice in how hard they push themselves.
5) Due to limits, it seems best to cast the most powerfull spells you have at the highest force. This way, if you get burned at least you have something big out of it. Win: Min Maxers. Actually lets retcon this list, Min Maxers win on all of these. Loss: Anyone who likes a bit of subtlety in actions.
Pretty much my opinion is it fixes some things, and fucks up some things that makes the fixes kind of pointless. Gear is more expensive in some ways, and so it seems that Adepts win out as the archetype most likely to be min-maxed and useful, against everything else (nearly.) Can't be hacked, can't burn themselves with their magic (that I recall.) Less expensive gear needed.
Overall? I'm sticking with 20A, and a few house rules I've been using (most of those are similar to the good changes in 5E.)
Of course I may say screw it and just use Sixth World (Dungeon World Hack) or Fate, because frankly they can't seem to get the crunch vs playability right, and they listen to the biggest complaints from the small minority, and that means 'running is back again something only optimal min/max, super professionals due.
I love SR's setting, I like (marginally 20A edition), 5E seems like a huge misstep to me, its selling well, but we'll see how it plays out in the long run (without people house-ruling the heck out of it.)
Quote from: Silverlion;6804881) Hacking/Decking is improved. There are throwbacks to classic decking though that makes it a minigame again. However, while gear can be hacked. Your own Decker can defend it. The new handling of decking is a win for people who don't think corporations, governments, etc, basically goto the lowest bidder for their stuff, and are super-anal retentive so that only the absolute best runners ever survive to actually run again. Loss: Anyone who realize that sometimes kids with cheap gear can get into so called secure places, like in real life.
3) Gear now has a stat that applies in some cases that cause you to lose many of your "hits" in the game. Win: People who think you should always spend the most money to have the best gear. Loss: Everyone else. Seriously, the game makes it so you can't be "skilled" and "talented." Instead you must be rich.
Like in real life!
JG
Sounds like a classic problem of many sci-fi games, where the equipment you have ends up mattering way more than your stats.
Funny thing, lots of people here complained about 4e as it is the most GURPS like system, but in my RPG groups most of the guys I play/played Shadowrun with were GURPS players as well, so we were glad to see the rules system going that way.
Hacking cyberware is the most brain-dead idea ever. Yeah let's have our entire army, including infantry subject to hacking and jamming. Not a single person who ever intended to take cyberware into combat would have it wireless. Pants-on-head, drooling feebleminded idiot, lobotomized, FULL.RETARD.
Worst kind of science fiction, the one that any four year old could tell you is too fucking stupid to happen.
To be fair, there are lots of security holes these days that exist because of devices which really don't need an internet connection being provided with one anyway.
On the other hand. once you start getting into the business of actually putting these devices in your body you would doubtless start taking security far more seriously so yeah, cyberware with an on-by-default wifi connection is just idiotic.
Quote from: Warthur;681402To be fair, there are lots of security holes these days that exist because of devices which really don't need an internet connection being provided with one anyway.
On the other hand. once you start getting into the business of actually putting these devices in your body you would doubtless start taking security far more seriously so yeah, cyberware with an on-by-default wifi connection is just idiotic.
Then again, most people don't care to install a firewall on their Android cellphone, even if they keep Money Transfer Tokens there (I'm unsure how the term transfers into English, let's call it banking information).
From what my IT mate tells me, about 75 - 90% of modern viruses are written with Android as a target.
Admittedly yes, cyberware'd be much more serious of an issue - but it'd not be that far of a stretch to consider their "default" firewall to be something like Windows Firewall.
Quote from: Rincewind1;681448Then again, most people don't care to install a firewall on their Android cellphone, even if they keep Money Transfer Tokens there (I'm unsure how the term transfers into English, let's call it banking information).
From what my IT mate tells me, about 75 - 90% of modern viruses are written with Android as a target.
Admittedly yes, cyberware'd be much more serious of an issue - but it'd not be that far of a stretch to consider their "default" firewall to be something like Windows Firewall.
Why would they have a wireless system to begin with? The whole concept of a wireless implant is for communication through flesh. The entire Shadowrun cyberware paradigm rests on ASIST, basically a neural interface. When I can transmit information through the client's own nervous system or have actually added wires to the client's nervous system, then an interface port would be the logical way to access diagnostic info rather than hackable wireless.
It's a transhumanist trope that every new technology that affects the human body is going to be automatically embraced no matter how radical, illogical or impractical. Get your pie-in-the-sky TH wankfest out of my dystopian cyberpunk you farging bastages.
I don't mind wireless. It makes sense for communication, for drones, for that kind of stuff.
Yeah wiring other things up to wireless is kinda strange, unless of course extra wiring cost essence...
Then I could see a wireless smartlink, but only then :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;681468Why would they have a wireless system to begin with? The whole concept of a wireless implant is for communication through flesh. The entire Shadowrun cyberware paradigm rests on ASIST, basically a neural interface. When I can transmit information through the client's own nervous system or have actually added wires to the client's nervous system, then an interface port would be the logical way to access diagnostic info rather than hackable wireless.
It's a transhumanist trope that every new technology that affects the human body is going to be automatically embraced no matter how radical, illogical or impractical. Get your pie-in-the-sky TH wankfest out of my dystopian cyberpunk you farging bastages.
They DO have the option of shutting the wireless options of your cyberware off. ;)
JG
Quote from: Silverlion;681502I don't mind wireless. It makes sense for communication, for drones, for that kind of stuff.
Yeah wiring other things up to wireless is kinda strange, unless of course extra wiring cost essence...
Then I could see a wireless smartlink, but only then :D
In all honesty, the essence thing bugs me more in Shadowrun than most other things. I can maybe see it for implants in the brain, but come on, more or less nobody seriously believes that if you lose your arm you lose part of your soul.
Quote from: Warthur;681551In all honesty, the essence thing bugs me more in Shadowrun than most other things. I can maybe see it for implants in the brain, but come on, more or less nobody seriously believes that if you lose your arm you lose part of your soul.
Metaphysics was not the strong suit of many cyberpunk authors ...
Quote from: CRKrueger;6758871st Edition - Glorious Mess
2nd Edition - The Best
3rd Edition - Like GURPS, HERO or 3.5 with all options
4th Edition - Boy do I miss the FASA guys.
Quote from: KrakaJak;6759691e 2e and 3e a very similar in style and increasingly complicated to play as the editions go up. 3e is especially fiddly and easily broken by a min-maxing player. I agree that out of these 3, 2e is probably the best of the bunch. They are all kind of messy as far as rulesets go.
Sounds A LOT like D&D :D
Quote from: J Arcane;681554Metaphysics was not the strong suit of many cyberpunk authors ...
True that.
I mean, I can see why they'd include that sort of mechanic - otherwise there'd be literally no reason not to get all the cyberwear you can possibly afford, which starts getting into a transhumanist sort of thing rather than the crazy mashup of organic and cyber you tend to associate with cyberpunk. But it seems a clumsy way to do it.
Quote from: Warthur;681592True that.
I mean, I can see why they'd include that sort of mechanic - otherwise there'd be literally no reason not to get all the cyberwear you can possibly afford, which starts getting into a transhumanist sort of thing rather than the crazy mashup of organic and cyber you tend to associate with cyberpunk. But it seems a clumsy way to do it.
Yeah, I'm still debating how I'll handle it for my AR/SR hybrid.
The way magic works in AR, it's a combination of life force and mental will, so there is an argument to be made either way, but divine prayer is fully the result of the heavenly powers so there's really no good excuse for it to have any effect at all.
And I'm not sold on the CP2020 solution either. I get the principle, and I suppose it's
possible that cyberpsychosis could happen, but on the flipside, it's once again basically saying that someone with an artificial limb is one step closer to pure inhuman psychopathy. Which is just bananas.
I don't think Essence loss means "loss of soul" per se, or doesn't anymore. I think its more "less magical connection." Which might make sense if living bodies are best at channeling magic.
Quote from: J Arcane;681596And I'm not sold on the CP2020 solution either. I get the principle, and I suppose it's possible that cyberpsychosis could happen, but on the flipside, it's once again basically saying that someone with an artificial limb is one step closer to pure inhuman psychopathy. Which is just bananas.
Yeah, I think you might get more traction if you say there's social disapproval of cyberwear, but on the other hand:
- How many times have you seen the media demonising people with artificial limbs recently?
- Does a roleplaying penalty which requires the GM to remember to apply social disapproval really counterbalance the advantages the cyberwear gives? Where do you draw the line between the social disapproval being too much to be worth it and too minor to be an effective deterrent against going all-cyber?
- If you're a superhuman cyborg, would the social disapproval of squishy meatbags really mean that much to you? Wouldn't you be out for the approval of fellow cyborgs (who presumably wouldn't share the prejudice of the rest of society because if they did they wouldn't have 'borged themselves in the first place)?
Quote from: Silverlion;681615I don't think Essence loss means "loss of soul" per se, or doesn't anymore. I think its more "less magical connection." Which might make sense if living bodies are best at channeling magic.
Except people have made artificial tools - wands, idols, totems, magic circles, and so forth - precisely for the purpose of channeling magic for about as long as they've believed in magic. Hell, crafting artificial tools to enhance shit is basically a defining feature of humanity - there's more or less no sphere of human activity which doesn't have its own set of accessories and tools and gear. (Even with something as simple as public speaking, you have flash cards, you have the speaker's clothing, you have all the stuff that's gone into the actual presentation and all the work you've done speaking in front of a mirror or into a tape recorder in order to perfect your delivery.)
Given that one of the basic ideas behind the whole cyberwear thing is the distinction between "human" and "tool" dissolving, wouldn't it be more thematically appropriate - not to mention opening the door to a groaning great heap of cool ideas for adventures and scenarios and setting features - for there to be an entire category of cyberwear dedicated to enhancing magic? I just think it's kind of weird that Shadowrun almost embraces this utterly false and bullshitty "magic is all rural and natural, science is all urban and sterile" dichotomy when you could have magical cyberarms with trapped demons inside, cybernetic third eyes that see into the occult parts of the Matrix, and so on and so forth.
Quote- If you're a superhuman cyborg, would the social disapproval of squishy meatbags really mean that much to you? Wouldn't you be out for the approval of fellow cyborgs (who presumably wouldn't share the prejudice of the rest of society because if they did they wouldn't have 'borged themselves in the first place)?
In fairness, this part is one of the justifications used by CP2020 to explain cyberpsychosis, IIRC.
Quote from: Warthur;681622Given that one of the basic ideas behind the whole cyberwear thing is the distinction between "human" and "tool" dissolving, wouldn't it be more thematically appropriate - not to mention opening the door to a groaning great heap of cool ideas for adventures and scenarios and setting features - for there to be an entire category of cyberwear dedicated to enhancing magic? I just think it's kind of weird that Shadowrun almost embraces this utterly false and bullshitty "magic is all rural and natural, science is all urban and sterile" dichotomy when you could have magical cyberarms with trapped demons inside, cybernetic third eyes that see into the occult parts of the Matrix, and so on and so forth.
Yeah, I think it would be cool, to add some magic into the cyber--but they want their non-RP balances.
Quote from: Warthur;681551In all honesty, the essence thing bugs me more in Shadowrun than most other things. I can maybe see it for implants in the brain, but come on, more or less nobody seriously believes that if you lose your arm you lose part of your soul.
Frankly I see it as more "Single-classed Wizards can't wear armor cause they'd be too powerful" or "[strike]Jedi[/strike] Paladins have to be of a certain alignment or they'd get away with murder", etc. Game balance, basically.
This is screamingly obvious when you consider that
Technomancers have Essence loss penalty for their abilities, and you'd think they'd be MORE connected to the Matrix with cyberware. ;)
JG
Quote from: Silverlion;681774Yeah, I think it would be cool, to add some magic into the cyber--but they want their non-RP balances.
Yeah, more's the pity, because there's all kinds of concepts around combining technology and emerging scientific ideas with magick going on in present-day real-life occultism.
Sure, you have some of the hippie-occultists being all "everything technological is evil, we worship the earth goddess by buying all-organic carob!", but you also have people working with ideas about cyberspace as the new frontier of the Astral Plane and Collective Unconscious, or using marketing techniques as modern venues for sigil magick. I can only imagine what future occultists will do with transhumanism.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;682272Yeah, more's the pity, because there's all kinds of concepts around combining technology and emerging scientific ideas with magick going on in present-day real-life occultism.
Sure, you have some of the hippie-occultists being all "everything technological is evil, we worship the earth goddess by buying all-organic carob!", but you also have people working with ideas about cyberspace as the new frontier of the Astral Plane and Collective Unconscious, or using marketing techniques as modern venues for sigil magick. I can only imagine what future occultists will do with transhumanism.
RPGPundit
Like I said, the magic and cyber can't mix thing is strictly a game balance factor. There is a lot of mystic/philosophical potential in exploring the electronic realm. I'm pretty sure that's why the Technomancer exists in the first place.
JG
Quote from: CRKrueger;681468Why would they have a wireless system to begin with? The whole concept of a wireless implant is for communication through flesh. The entire Shadowrun cyberware paradigm rests on ASIST, basically a neural interface. When I can transmit information through the client's own nervous system or have actually added wires to the client's nervous system, then an interface port would be the logical way to access diagnostic info rather than hackable wireless.
It's a transhumanist trope that every new technology that affects the human body is going to be automatically embraced no matter how radical, illogical or impractical. Get your pie-in-the-sky TH wankfest out of my dystopian cyberpunk you farging bastages.
True that, I mean why'd you make a prosthetic with a WiFi anyway? The bizarre "make me do it via Skype" fetishists market is pretty small.
Quote from: James Gillen;681930Frankly I see it as more "Single-classed Wizards can't wear armor cause they'd be too powerful" or "[strike]Jedi[/strike] Paladins have to be of a certain alignment or they'd get away with murder", etc. Game balance, basically.
This is screamingly obvious when you consider that Technomancers have Essence loss penalty for their abilities, and you'd think they'd be MORE connected to the Matrix with cyberware. ;)
JG
Agree, though that said, I liked Arcanum's idea of magic literally destroying technology, because it displaced laws of physics technology depended on working.
Not to speak well of a person I dislike, but the Troll-person had some interesting ideas regarding magic and cyberware and how they mixed for his Shadowrun retread. (Er, "reimagining".) You can find info about it on his own personal forum (or maybe a thread here, IIRC).
EDIT: Also, Shadowrun 2e gets my vote, if I'm forced to use the SR rules. If not, I'd run it with something else. Probably my homebrew system.