Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 09, 2023, 09:07:08 AM
So, in review, this is what most people think of Shadowdark?

1.  Shadowdark is OSR, but nothing special.  It's only real standout feature is real time tracking of torches. 

2.  The author is a legit gamer and nice person. 

3.  The author is exceptionally good at marketing and knows a lot of YouTubers who help hock her new game.

Actually real time tracking of torches she didnt come up with.  Old School Essentials used it long before Shadowdark and it was used in earlier games.    I agree  with two and 3 but yes, ShadowDark doesn't do anything OSE (My choice of OSR games) doesn't already do.   Dont need another game that just sits on the shelf and doesn't get played.

If you isolate mechanics in any game, each one has very likely been done before. I have seen countless times people posting about new clever mechanics and the first reply citing some game that did it earlier.

So many games, both well known and obscure, have been developed over the past 50 years that very few "new" mechanics will actually be truly innovative.

Innovation is now about packaging mechanics into a game, so that's it's intuitive, fun, and compelling. Yeah there might be a slight change to a mechanic that makes it innovative, but odds are not.

And there's nothing wrong with using tried and tested mechanics! It makes the game easier to learn! Innovation for the sake of innovation is stupid. So the criticism of ShadowDark (or any game) lacking innovation is a big "so what?" for me.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2023, 02:05:40 PM
If you isolate mechanics in any game, each one has very likely been done before. I have seen countless times people posting about new clever mechanics and the first reply citing some game that did it earlier.

Yes but when someone states it like she did something new, I am going to point out and correct the person and say No, its not new, its been done before.

I didnt say it lacked innovation or was inovative, I just corrected someone saying something was new when it was not.

"States it like it was new"? Did she claim to have created new mechanics or was it just marketing spin?

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2023, 03:12:20 PM
"States it like it was new"? Did she claim to have created new mechanics or was it just marketing spin?

I am not talking about her.   I am talking about the person who posted here and I replied to.

A "standout" feature? If you're reading that as a claim of innovation, I dunno man. I don't read it that way. To me that means good or uncommon, not innovative or new. But hey you can interpret things how you want. I stand by my screed that innovation in mechanics is not that important.

Since most games eschew real time tracking of torches stupidity, having it does count as a 'stand out feature', even if other games have included that stupidity before. Noteworthy doesn't have to equal innovative, especially if we're talking about the OSR which to a certain extent  is exactly about not innovating.

Quote from: migo on November 10, 2023, 04:47:03 PM
Since most games eschew real time tracking of torches stupidity, having it does count as a 'stand out feature', even if other games have included that stupidity before. Noteworthy doesn't have to equal innovative, especially if we're talking about the OSR which to a certain extent  is exactly about not innovating.

I wouldn't call it stupidity. Having run a couple one shots in Shadowdark that mechanic, combined with wandering monster mechanics that escalate in the dark and limited gear slots that keep you from loading up on torches, creates a real pressure on players to GET ON WITH IT. No creeping down a hall tapping every flagstone with a 10' pole. No searching every inch of the dungeion for a secret door. No long-winded arguments about which way to go. No chit chat about Baldur's Gate 3. It's fairly effective at encouraging a specific and focused style of play. Not everyone's cup of tea and personally I'm on the fence with it. Fun for a change, though I suspect it will get old after a bit. But I didn't find it stupid. The mechanic achieves what the designer intended it to achieve, which is often an indicator of thoughtful design and a lot of playtesting whether you care for the result or not.

I should have added this.

4.  Is there a compelling reason to buy Shadowdark, especially when so many free and diverse OSR and non-OSR games exist?   I think the consensus is a no from the majority. 

Myself, I prefer Olde Swords Reign, though I'm a recent convert to that game.  Less than a month ago I didn't even know it was a thing, let alone free PDF/printed book at cost.  But, now I am.  It's my OSR book I want to try.

Of course, there are so many RPGs out there I can't play them all.  Warbirds, Tiny D6 Supers, Mini-Six Bare Bones, Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool, or even going back to my roots and play more Palladium Fantasy 1E with my well worn copy.

Shadowdark is noise in the background to all of that.  Only free rules would tempt me, and not even that would make me exited in the end based on what I've seen.

Quote from: Festus on November 10, 2023, 07:36:19 PM

Quote from: migo on November 10, 2023, 04:47:03 PM
Since most games eschew real time tracking of torches stupidity, having it does count as a 'stand out feature', even if other games have included that stupidity before. Noteworthy doesn't have to equal innovative, especially if we're talking about the OSR which to a certain extent  is exactly about not innovating.

I wouldn't call it stupidity. Having run a couple one shots in Shadowdark that mechanic, combined with wandering monster mechanics that escalate in the dark and limited gear slots that keep you from loading up on torches, creates a real pressure on players to GET ON WITH IT. No creeping down a hall tapping every flagstone with a 10' pole. No searching every inch of the dungeion for a secret door. No long-winded arguments about which way to go. No chit chat about Baldur's Gate 3. It's fairly effective at encouraging a specific and focused style of play. Not everyone's cup of tea and personally I'm on the fence with it. Fun for a change, though I suspect it will get old after a bit. But I didn't find it stupid. The mechanic achieves what the designer intended it to achieve, which is often an indicator of thoughtful design and a lot of playtesting whether you care for the result or not.

The problem is even with a very lean combat system, it slows down. You can cover several days in game within a couple hours of play time as long as you don't have combat, but without care a combat that lasts a minute can take hours to resolve. This is where BrOSR real time = game time breaks.

The real time tracking of torches is actually one of the reasons why I don't want the game.  The simulationist in me just recoils in disgust by stuff like that.

I've gone back and re-downloaded Shadowdark QuickStart.  It's a decent game as many have pointed out.  In fact, it's got a lot of good points that I really like. 

1.  Random "Talent" at every odd level, including level-1 character creation.  This means you're not a cookie cutter fighter for example.

2.  No Vancian magic.  Wizards make a skill check, including a mishap table if you roll a 1. 

3.  Weapons have traits from 5E like versatile and reach. 

That being said, it still isn't enough.  Olde Swords Reign is free and has a lot to like as well.  Why pay for Shadowdark when other comparable games are free?

I don't get people sometimes. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 13, 2023, 10:34:05 AM
I've gone back and re-downloaded Shadowdark QuickStart.  It's a decent game as many have pointed out.  In fact, it's got a lot of good points that I really like. 

1.  Random "Talent" at every odd level, including level-1 character creation.  This means you're not a cookie cutter fighter for example.

2.  No Vancian magic.  Wizards make a skill check, including a mishap table if you roll a 1. 

3.  Weapons have traits from 5E like versatile and reach. 

That being said, it still isn't enough.  Olde Swords Reign is free and has a lot to like as well.  Why pay for Shadowdark when other comparable games are free?

I don't get people sometimes.

I like those ideas, too. Not in every game, but they seem to fit together thematically.

As for your last question, the obvious answer (not necessarily correct) is that people play what other people play. If nobody is playing Olde Swords Reign, then nobody will play it. Also, free things tend to be viewed as poor quality whether justified or not. We should all be out there running the games that we like! In public, at the game store, even with people we are not aligned with. That's how we can change things.

Quote from: Festus on November 10, 2023, 07:36:19 PM
I wouldn't call it stupidity. Having run a couple one shots in Shadowdark that mechanic, combined with wandering monster mechanics that escalate in the dark and limited gear slots that keep you from loading up on torches, creates a real pressure on players to GET ON WITH IT. No creeping down a hall tapping every flagstone with a 10' pole. No searching every inch of the dungeion for a secret door. No long-winded arguments about which way to go. No chit chat about Baldur's Gate 3. It's fairly effective at encouraging a specific and focused style of play. Not everyone's cup of tea and personally I'm on the fence with it. Fun for a change, though I suspect it will get old after a bit. But I didn't find it stupid. The mechanic achieves what the designer intended it to achieve, which is often an indicator of thoughtful design and a lot of playtesting whether you care for the result or not.

I totally agree with this.  This is why my players love and wanted to use the rule and is something I love about the game.  I have had characters exploring and have used up their torches and oil for their lanterns and had to go back to restock.   Next time they were more effecient on how they did things.    I am running OSE but it's basically the same thing.

We have played it several times. 
I absolutely loathe close, near, far distance rules. 
Other than that the game is fine.