A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.

That being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.

For any given thing in a design, there are typically a handful of good ways to handle it, several more that will work if maybe not as well, and a lot of bad ways.  Any design that is play tested is going to converge on some of the better options, naturally.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 07, 2023, 08:42:46 AM
A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.

I never saw that book. The inspiration for L&D spell rolls for me was DCC.

QuoteThat being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.

Yup. She claims she got it from a Pokemon game but I've heard other people say that said game doesn't even have random advancement.

Did anyone get the .pdf's yet?  I am anxious to hear/read about this game in its completeness.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 09, 2023, 02:34:18 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 07, 2023, 08:42:46 AM
A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.

I never saw that book. The inspiration for L&D spell rolls for me was DCC.

QuoteThat being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.

Yup. She claims she got it from a Pokemon game but I've heard other people say that said game doesn't even have random advancement.

It sort of does. To make a long story short, pokemon stat growth is based on multiple controlled and random factors, certain pokemon have better growth compared to other pokemon of the same type. The difference is all this is decided before you catch the pokemon. The controlled factors being that which pokemon you fight will influence the pokemon's stat growth. Apparebtly it used to be even more convoluted.

Quote from: Slambo on April 09, 2023, 05:47:25 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 09, 2023, 02:34:18 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 07, 2023, 08:42:46 AM
A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.

I never saw that book. The inspiration for L&D spell rolls for me was DCC.

QuoteThat being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.

Yup. She claims she got it from a Pokemon game but I've heard other people say that said game doesn't even have random advancement.

It sort of does. To make a long story short, pokemon stat growth is based on multiple controlled and random factors, certain pokemon have better growth compared to other pokemon of the same type. The difference is all this is decided before you catch the pokemon. The controlled factors being that which pokemon you fight will influence the pokemon's stat growth. Apparebtly it used to be even more convoluted.

Is this even an RPG?? Or are you just talking about the video game?

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 10, 2023, 02:56:44 PM


Is this even an RPG?? Or are you just talking about the video game?

Pokemon Red and Blue, the nintendo Gameboy game.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 10, 2023, 02:56:44 PM

Quote from: Slambo on April 09, 2023, 05:47:25 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 09, 2023, 02:34:18 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 07, 2023, 08:42:46 AM
A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.

I never saw that book. The inspiration for L&D spell rolls for me was DCC.

QuoteThat being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.

Yup. She claims she got it from a Pokemon game but I've heard other people say that said game doesn't even have random advancement.

It sort of does. To make a long story short, pokemon stat growth is based on multiple controlled and random factors, certain pokemon have better growth compared to other pokemon of the same type. The difference is all this is decided before you catch the pokemon. The controlled factors being that which pokemon you fight will influence the pokemon's stat growth. Apparebtly it used to be even more convoluted.

Is this even an RPG?? Or are you just talking about the video game?

The pokemon video game. I do know to two fan polemon ttrpgs but i dont think they incorporate these mechanics

I belong to the Shadowdark Facebook group, and I have to admit that I am starting to become annoyed with the many, many posts by people who seem to have never heard of the OSR and seem to believe that Shadowdark was created out of nothing.

This is not to criticize the creator of Shadowdark, and also it maybe validates the opinion that Shadowdark might reach new people to bring into the OSR universe. I feel bad for making my observation, but I still find many of these Shadowdark fans very annoying at their complete lack of knowledge concerning the context of the game and the hobby.

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 10, 2023, 04:20:15 PM
I belong to the Shadowdark Facebook group, and I have to admit that I am starting to become annoyed with the many, many posts by people who seem to have never heard of the OSR and seem to believe that Shadowdark was created out of nothing.

This is not to criticize the creator of Shadowdark, and also it maybe validates the opinion that Shadowdark might reach new people to bring into the OSR universe. I feel bad for making my observation, but I still find many of these Shadowdark fans very annoying at their complete lack of knowledge concerning the context of the game and the hobby.

I bet every single one of the people who have not heard of the OSR have only played 5E or maybe Pathfinder.

Quote from: Malaky on April 10, 2023, 04:22:06 PM

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 10, 2023, 04:20:15 PM
I belong to the Shadowdark Facebook group, and I have to admit that I am starting to become annoyed with the many, many posts by people who seem to have never heard of the OSR and seem to believe that Shadowdark was created out of nothing.

This is not to criticize the creator of Shadowdark, and also it maybe validates the opinion that Shadowdark might reach new people to bring into the OSR universe. I feel bad for making my observation, but I still find many of these Shadowdark fans very annoying at their complete lack of knowledge concerning the context of the game and the hobby.

I bet every single one of the people who have not heard of the OSR have only played 5E or maybe Pathfinder.

Thisx1000

Critical Role doesn't do OSR, Big Bang Theory doesn't do OSR, Shadowdark doesn't look like the game the kids in Stranger Things were playing, ergo you get the bafflement by people who have played this game for decades vs those that only consume What's Current.

It's like folks who have lived in a house their entire lives finally realized they can go outside and there is so much more to see than the 4 walls...


The best thing you can do is to show them good non-woke products by authors who value you their customers instead of preaching to them.  Guide them on their path to OSR-litenment

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 10, 2023, 05:02:48 PM

Quote from: Malaky on April 10, 2023, 04:22:06 PM

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 10, 2023, 04:20:15 PM
I belong to the Shadowdark Facebook group, and I have to admit that I am starting to become annoyed with the many, many posts by people who seem to have never heard of the OSR and seem to believe that Shadowdark was created out of nothing.

This is not to criticize the creator of Shadowdark, and also it maybe validates the opinion that Shadowdark might reach new people to bring into the OSR universe. I feel bad for making my observation, but I still find many of these Shadowdark fans very annoying at their complete lack of knowledge concerning the context of the game and the hobby.

I bet every single one of the people who have not heard of the OSR have only played 5E or maybe Pathfinder.

Thisx1000

Critical Role doesn't do OSR, Big Bang Theory doesn't do OSR, Shadowdark doesn't look like the game the kids in Stranger Things were playing, ergo you get the bafflement by people who have played this game for decades vs those that only consume What's Current.

It's like folks who have lived in a house their entire lives finally realized they can go outside and there is so much more to see than the 4 walls...


The best thing you can do is to show them good non-woke products by authors who value you their customers instead of preaching to them.  Guide them on their path to OSR-litenment

Amen. How does someone discover the OSR if it's only for people who already know about the OSR? There's an odd possessiveness in the OSR community that works to keep it smaller than it could be.

New Update Landed. PDFs soonish plus late pledges for more books

Quote
Greetings, Shadowdark RPG Backers!

I've been accumulating lots of exciting updates for us this past week, and I finally have all the information pinned down and ready to share!

Surveys + PDF Delivery
As a Kickstarter backer, you'll soon be getting an emailed survey so we can collect important information about your pledge, including your shipping address and any add-ons or changes you want to make to your pledge.

TL;DR: It's very important that you please answer this survey so you can get your Shadowdark RPG PDFs and we can collect your shipping info (if needed).

Backerkit also allows you to change your pledge to a totally different tier or add additional items, if you want to! That includes being able to add physical items if you were a digital-only pledge -- something that was not possible on Kickstarter.

You don't need to set up a Backerkit account or do anything besides follow the emailed link and fill out the survey.

We're planning to begin our "smoke test" for surveys this Friday (April 14), which means 5% of backers will receive the survey. We'll make sure there are no hiccups or snags, and then we'll send the survey to everyone else!

I anticipate everyone will receive their survey starting Monday, April 17.

And once you complete your Backerkit survey, you'll get access to all your PDFs!

(Don't worry if you'll be moving soon -- go ahead and still fill out the survey. You'll be able to update your answers later if your shipping addresses changes, or if you want to update something about your previous responses. We'll send out reminders.)

Stretch Goals
It's time to get cracking on stretch goals! We have a mini-adventure to write, two new classes to build, and a YouTube series on solo gameplay with Shadowdark RPG!

I want to bring everyone into the creative process as much as possible, so we're planning YouTube livestreams for the mini-adventure and the process of creating the Ranger and Bard classes.

The solo gameplay show will be pre-recorded to cut out the massive stretches of dead air as I think ponderously about randomly rolled results, so more on that later.

Here are the currently scheduled livestreams (with more to come):

Community Dungeon!
Ranger Class Design
Shipping
As we mentioned on the Kickstarter pledges, we're going to charge shipping closer to the actual fulfillment date as a separate transaction.

That helps keep shipping prices accurate, and also allows us to deliver your PDFs right away instead of having to wait until the orders are "complete" with shipping information attached!

Finally, this gives us plenty of time to carefully build out accurate shipping charges for around the world with the lowest possible prices + best delivery service in mind.

How this works:

1. Backers with physical products will need to provide payment information in the Backerkit pledge manager survey due out in a few days, even if they do not select any add-ons, so that we can process shipping cost payments when the time comes.

Those backers may find a pre-authorization when adding their card information.

But don't worry! We're not charging for shipping until later, and you'll get several notices beforehand. We won't charge you for shipping without giving you a chance to review it.

2. When the time to charge for shipping arrives this summer, we'll send an email to all backers with shipping balances letting them know that in 48 hours, we'll charge their cards for shipping costs.

Backers can contact backer support if they do not wish to be charged, and they can also access their order to update their payment information.

Late Pledges
We're going to open up late pledges next week!

Backerkit again amazes us with its wondrous options, including allowing folks who missed out on the main Kickstarter to flap into the stingbat cave with the rest of us.

I hope to have this live by Tuesday or Wednesday of next week (April 18th or 19th). Stand by for an update when late pledges open up!

Thanks Again
Thank you once again, backers, for being so encouraging, supportive, and excited for Shadowdark RPG! Never hesitate to ask any questions as things move along.

We'll have more updates in the coming weeks, including some special treats (I simply can't let Monster Monday go the way of the dinosaur, it was too much fun)!

-Kelsey

On the discord. PDF's coming on Monday:

Quote
We're planning to begin our "smoke test" for surveys this Friday (April 14), which means 5% of backers will receive the survey. We make sure there are no hiccups or snags, and then we'll send the survey to everyone else!

I anticipate everyone will receive their survey starting Monday, April 17.

And once you complete your Backerkit survey, you'll get access to all your PDFs!

3 session After Play report.

Group of 10 players in skills ranging from: Never played a TTRPG to 30years of experience in multiple systems. 
Average gaming experience of particpants: 10 years
Particpants: 4 women, 6 men

All rules, race, classes used from quickstart and 2 from Cursed Scroll (Assassian and Pit Fighter).

TLDR: Similar to 5e with most of the overhead removed. Very Flexible System for both DM and Players

Setup: First and Second session had new players from prior sessions. Each started out with creating a PC and went through the rules. 3rd session had 2 new people and they had their PC's pregenerated for them.   I explained the rules before events happened with a bit of a preview of things to come in game.  Most grasped the rules right away who had played 5e before.

First adventure started with a Tavern meet and greet with a Mr. Johnson (ShadowrunYO!), to get the McGuffin, boats leaving soon. As my groups refuse to anything linear they decided to look for a gambling house in which (random generators later) they came to an undgerground casino that had a bubble room dedidcated to lobster pit fighting. Bets were had and Clawdius the black reigned supreme.  Fast forward to the ship leaving, bit of social skills rolls all using stats straight away, combat with some underwater zombies to run through combat and land on the island where the module at the back of the GM Quickstart takes place.

Now here's where things run completely off the rails as expected with my crew of absolute derailing degenerates (love them one and all..mostly).

Explain the light mechanics, 30' view, monsters can see in the dark, monsters will go after the light bearer, Real Time 1hr timer, and off they go.  They decide to literally kick in the door of this giant stone temple, 2 in 6 chance for encounter as they brute force the door. Dark mantles appear and head for the light bearing cleric, snuff that out, drop a player, before all being killed.  An NPC is present in the room hiding (Ettercap I changed into Spider/Goblin hybrid), is in the book saying "COWARDLY, DISLOYAL".  The Diplomat of the group have him roll 2d6 for Reaction check, gets a 12 and they are now mostly Best Friends Forever.  The party explains they are here to kill the Red Devil and a bright red Gem, SpiderGoblin agrees to take them to his leader. Fast forward through more skill rolls and a wary party before the leader of the Spidergoblins(ettercaps), always on iniative all players are wondering how badly doomed they are as the Diplomat has they 3 rooms deep inside a cave all with many eyed critters eyeing them and the way out coated in webs.  Reaction Check roll with Council of Spidergoblins: 2.  initial NPC's head pops off in a geyser of blue/black blood Council now suspicious and demand to know why the party is here. Diplomat rolls CHA: Natural 20 and smoothly deflects to "We would love to help rid this place of the Red Devil as long as we can keep this item we are looking for in the process." Haggling a bit and the 2 sides agree to ally.  Hand wave a legion of mutated goblin/spider creatures telling the party to "Everything here is ours, do not interfere" and move to the End Boss in which i again narrate both sides trapping and killing the thing as it had a giant Red gem in it's chest the party wants. PC's take the gem and head out quicklike as the Spider goblins are now partying like it's 1999 in this tomb of treasure and return to the ship.  End Scene

Notes: I understand that in the module certain things MAY or MAY NOT do things I stated which is fine. Great rolls and Great Roleplaying allow rules to bend a bit. The ettercaps are Chaotic but that doesn't mean they are stupid. If there's a way for them to claim dominance over this whole area vs the Beastmen (i made them goblins) they'd take it and betray the group at their first oppertunity.  The battle took a toll on the Ettercaps and they were not in a place to kill the party out right due to losses but they had enough forces to keep all the loot and watch the party go off on their own.  That FELT like a fitting understanding of the Ettercaps.

Session 2 and 3: Some new players joined, some couldn't make it, this one had a person who'd never played any RPG before.
Ran through some exposition and more skill rolls involving the lost homeland of a Minotaur Prince who used the gem the PC's found to guide him to his ancestral homeland. Some players tried to explore the ship more and 1 died from a trap on the captains door.   In this next part I ran 2 modules from Eleven Tower : The Planar Gateway and Val's Underground Garden.   Tying them both together for a longer story arch the torch timers came in handy here as they ran out of torches multiple times and it was quite dark with random encounters.  Two players died from pit traps and one from failing a Con check for trying to re-engineer a power battery.   A single monsters vs. multiple PC's shows you can throw a higher level boss monster that is higer in "level" than the players and it scales just fine with the rules in the GM's quickstart of Monster Level vs. Number of Players/Level.  Much easier than trying to figure out CR or ECL...

Everyone had fun and the second and third game went smoother, new player enjoyed her time and would love to try this again. I showed her the 5e Player sheet and she said "No thanks, that's far too much to keep track of."  She's right, Shadowdark has a single page sheet (2 for casters really) and everything you need is on that one page to game with.

In Conclusion: Shadowdark is the happy blend of 5e and OSR that I've been wanting to use for myself and my players. The rules strip out that have bloated up the game since 2E (skills, specializations, saves), 3e-5e (feats, skills, saves, attunement, etc) and boils the rules down very nicely with simple DC (9,12,15,18), more focus on PC's doing/knowing what they do best, and the always on initative and torch timer introduce player agency and some tension.

Is it perfect? No.  Are we going to house rule a bunch? Absolutely, and it's super easy, barely an inconvience to do so. The rules are very modular and you can see how things are broken down to make your own monster, class, race, etc.

If you are looking for a ruleset that will bridge the mindset of 5e with an OSR-feel  then Shadowdark can scratch that itch.