Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 05:03:52 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on April 04, 2023, 06:47:41 PM

Finally, as someone else noted, it does seem that if some rando cis white guy designed the game instead of a frumpy, middle-aged lesbian, there would be somewhat less exaggerated hype.  Maybe, I'm wrong there but I don't think so.

"Frumpy, middle-aged lesbian"?   Classy.

Ah, I see that you are new here...

Welcome!

Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 04:56:00 AM
As a Brit I have to say that I enjoy sustained sarcasm  It does, however, make me want to take a look at Lion & Dragon.

Some of the mechanics the two games share are rather uncanny examples of multiple discovery/simultaneous invention...

Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 06:23:23 PM

Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 05:03:52 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on April 04, 2023, 06:47:41 PM

Finally, as someone else noted, it does seem that if some rando cis white guy designed the game instead of a frumpy, middle-aged lesbian, there would be somewhat less exaggerated hype.  Maybe, I'm wrong there but I don't think so.

"Frumpy, middle-aged lesbian"?   Classy.

Ah, I see that you are new here...

Welcome!

Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 04:56:00 AM
As a Brit I have to say that I enjoy sustained sarcasm  It does, however, make me want to take a look at Lion & Dragon.

Some of the mechanics the two games share are rather uncanny examples of multiple discovery/simultaneous invention...

Thanks!

Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 06:23:23 PM

Ah, I see that you are new here...

Welcome!

Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 06:23:23 PM

LOL

Some of the mechanics the two games share are rather uncanny examples of multiple discovery/simultaneous invention...
[/quote]

Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.

Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.

The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)

What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.

Aside from SD using 2d6 for every class, and L&D using a single die, with the differences in bonuses types due to different system math:

It's the Exact same mechanic.

Even the way SD does its class descriptions is quiet similar to how L&D does it.

There are also lots of other similarities like a background skill table - but those similarities can be traced back to earlier games. (Like the secondary skill table in the 1e DMG.)

IMO - Those similarities are due to both games having a similar conceptual framework. Even with the differences in execution due to game focus: A more medieval authentic  feel for L&D. A low-level dungeon crawl feel with SD. Both games share the concept of having vulnerable PC's with a streamlined mechanical complexity compared to 5e.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM

Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.

The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)

What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.

Aside from SD using 2d6 for every class, and L&D using a single die, with the differences in bonuses types due to different system math:

It's the Exact same mechanic.

Even the way SD does its class descriptions is quiet similar to how L&D does it.

There are also lots of other similarities like a background skill table - but those similarities can be traced back to earlier games. (Like the secondary skill table in the 1e DMG.)

IMO - Those similarities are due to both games having a similar conceptual framework. Even with the differences in execution due to game focus: A more medieval authentic  feel for L&D. A low-level dungeon crawl feel with SD. Both games share the concept of having vulnerable PC's with a streamlined mechanical complexity compared to 5e.

Those all sound like skills and powers...like a book that came up with that type of mechanic oh back in the 90s that detailed functilaity like that...couldn't be that it's been done before...

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 06, 2023, 03:19:42 PM
...
Those all sound like skills and powers...like a book that came up with that type of mechanic oh back in the 90s that detailed functilaity like that...couldn't be that it's been done before...

Assuming that you are referring to the random class advancement tables L&D AND SD share.

Sounds like, yes. But not the same mechanic.

I quickly perused my Nigerian edition of S&P - class abilities there are bought via point buy, at character creation, and as they accrue points when they level.

In SD and L&D, they are always randomly rolled from a short table - and the abilities are not nearly as involved as what is offered in S&P. To me the class ability offerings in S&P come across as a proto-feat system. And a better executed one IMHO.

Where as with SD and L&D - it's literally the exact same mechanical idea.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM

Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.

The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)

What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.

A few years ago, a hack of Ben Milton's RPG Knave, titled Brave, had PCs roll for feat-like abilities as they level.  Its not the exact same mechanic found in Shadowdark, but it is quite similar. 

Quote from: Crusader X on April 06, 2023, 04:52:22 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM

Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.

The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)

What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.

A few years ago, a hack of Ben Milton's RPG Knave, titled Brave, had PCs roll for feat-like abilities as they level.  Its not the exact same mechanic found in Shadowdark, but it is quite similar.

So Knave copied L&D, that was released in 2017 then?  Knave came out in 2018.

Brave came out in 2019?
https://knightattheopera.blogspot.com/2019/11/brave-10-my-knave-hack.html

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 06, 2023, 04:58:54 PM

Quote from: Crusader X on April 06, 2023, 04:52:22 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM

Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.

The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)

What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.

A few years ago, a hack of Ben Milton's RPG Knave, titled Brave, had PCs roll for feat-like abilities as they level.  Its not the exact same mechanic found in Shadowdark, but it is quite similar.

So Knave copied L&D, that was released in 2017 then?  Knave came out in 2018.

Brave came out in 2019?
https://knightattheopera.blogspot.com/2019/11/brave-10-my-knave-hack.html

Maybe the Brave author was influenced by L&D
Maybe the Brave author came up with the idea on his own
Maybe Kelsey was influenced by L&D
Maybe Kelsey was influenced by Brave
Maybe Kelsey was influenced by a Pokemon game.  Like she stated.

Lots of maybes there!  Based on everything I've seen, I'll go with the last one.

Maybe I'm right.  Maybe I'm wrong.  More maybes! 

Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM

Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.

The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)

What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.

Aside from SD using 2d6 for every class, and L&D using a single die, with the differences in bonuses types due to different system math:

It's the Exact same mechanic.

Even the way SD does its class descriptions is quiet similar to how L&D does it.

There are also lots of other similarities like a background skill table - but those similarities can be traced back to earlier games. (Like the secondary skill table in the 1e DMG.)

IMO - Those similarities are due to both games having a similar conceptual framework. Even with the differences in execution due to game focus: A more medieval authentic  feel for L&D. A low-level dungeon crawl feel with SD. Both games share the concept of having vulnerable PC's with a streamlined mechanical complexity compared to 5e.

Thx. I think you're right. Once you decide "in my TTRPG game characters will get a randomly determined ability when leveling up" then a table and a die roll are almost inevitable. And tables are setting - an excellent tool for reinforcing a particular tone or genre.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 03:41:08 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 06, 2023, 03:19:42 PM
...
Those all sound like skills and powers...like a book that came up with that type of mechanic oh back in the 90s that detailed functilaity like that...couldn't be that it's been done before...

Assuming that you are referring to the random class advancement tables L&D AND SD share.

Sounds like, yes. But not the same mechanic.

I quickly perused my Nigerian edition of S&P - class abilities there are bought via point buy, at character creation, and as they accrue points when they level.

In SD and L&D, they are always randomly rolled from a short table - and the abilities are not nearly as involved as what is offered in S&P. To me the class ability offerings in S&P come across as a proto-feat system. And a better executed one IMHO.

Where as with SD and L&D - it's literally the exact same mechanical idea.

S&P? Whachu talkin bout Willis?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 06:17:54 PM
S&P? Whachu talkin bout Willis?

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons®
Player's Option™:
Skills & Powers Book


Basically converts AD&D to a point buy system.  It has lots of listings for race and class abilities. It's a good resource to steal *cough* be inspired by for homebrew...

Quote from: Crusader X on April 06, 2023, 04:52:22 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM

Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.

The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)

What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.

A few years ago, a hack of Ben Milton's RPG Knave, titled Brave, had PCs roll for feat-like abilities as they level.  Its not the exact same mechanic found in Shadowdark, but it is quite similar.

As far as I can tell "brave" (which is very obscure and I certainly never heard of it) dates back to around 2019? 

Whereas the rules in Lion & Dragon first appeared in more basic format as Appendix P of Dark Albion, so they date to 2015.

Stuff Shadowdark has that L&D already had:

-much more basic XP system
-random benefit tables for leveling
-no resurrection magic
-critical tables(? I'm trying to remember if it has this or not)
-Random background tables
-spell rolls for magic
-simplified encumbrance system

Apart from real-time torches, I haven't yet heard of an "innovation" in Shadowdark that wasn't also in L&D

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 07, 2023, 12:55:58 AM
Stuff Shadowdark has that L&D already had:

-much more basic XP system
-random benefit tables for leveling
-no resurrection magic
-critical tables(? I'm trying to remember if it has this or not)
-Random background tables
-spell rolls for magic
-simplified encumbrance system

Apart from real-time torches, I haven't yet heard of an "innovation" in Shadowdark that wasn't also in L&D

Well, the answer is thus obvious: Pundit needs to transition and make a million dollars on a Kickstarter for his new recycled rules-set.