Quote from: SHARK on March 30, 2023, 07:34:03 PM

Quote from: shihansmurf on March 30, 2023, 06:29:15 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 30, 2023, 01:41:21 PM
Greetings!


ShadowDark takes many systems and mechanics from other games and presents them, perhaps also modified, in one book.

This. 1000 times this.

I'm a busy guy. I would rather spend my time creating adventures than fiddling with house rules(unless we are talking about Tunnels and Trolls) and I like all of the material that she has collated into one complete game. Saves me the hassle of doing so. I like the advantage/disadvantage rules from 5E, the rolling spell checks and penalties for crit fail (I liked it in DCC but this is less cumbersome in play), I like the randomized talents at level up, the encumbrance system, and I like the presentation. The only thing I'm not sold on is the exp system although I am hoping for better examples in the complete game.

I became aware of it vis Prof DM's review. I downloaded the quick start and liked it. This is the first Kickstart that I have backs and I am looking forward to it.

As far as all the hand wringing going on......seems like a tempest in a teapot.

Mark

Greetings!

I hear you, Mark! I've been an OSR guy, and also a 5E guy, forever. However, I don't have 12 different OD&D game books all rehashing the same basic game. I'm sure various games and retro-clones have little widgets that are great. I'm not interested in buying 12 different game books all doing the same thing.

Note: I have three sets of original AD&D books, including my first set from 1978. I also have a copy of OSRIC.

Then, *BOOM*--ShadowDark jumps in front of me. I was immediately impressed, and having seen a few of Kelsey's gaming videos before, I then watched Runehammer, Questing Beast, and Dungeoncraft, with Professor DM. That confirmed it for me. I then went and backed Shadowdark at the Legend level promptly. Everything you mentioned as being attractive. Damn right! I'm looking forward to ShadowDark. All the haters crying that Kelsey has got over 1 million dollars, *laughing*--that's just icing on the cake!

Welcome to the site, too, Mark!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I backed yesterday for the pdfs. Initially I didn't care for some of the game's features and wanted more meat on some others. But I downloaded several PWYW and $1-2 supplements off Drivethru and took a good look at what others were already building off the quickstart rules. I've been doing a lot of homebrewing to get a game that really fits my style and my world, but it's been a square peg, round hole effort the whole way. I think Shadowdark might be a foundation I can build on. If it's not then I'll likely ditch d20 systems altogether and try either the Year Zero engine used in Forbidden Lands or maybe Savage Worlds.

[EDIT] Aaaand 32 pages! 

Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
I can't help to think when it comes to critics of Shadowdark, that there might be a tinge of jealousy involved.

A bit of "God dammit! Why didn't I think of that!" sort of thing.

I perused the quick start rules. Sure, not everything there is original.

The presentation is good, clear, concise.

Artwork is definitely within the OSR style.

she used her connections within the industry, which btw there is NOTHING wrong in doing so, to spread the word. Anyone who has any business sense would do the same thing.

She got great traction from many online reviewers (YouTube for example) and IIRC recognition from Forbes magazine doesn't hurt.

Now the Kickstarter is done and she raised more than $1 million.

So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?

What would I have to be jealous about? Again, raising ONE MILLION sure seems like a lot, but that's gross not net, and depending on what she promised and how careful she was, after you deduct all the various costs, she MIGHT end up earning more in that kickstarter than I'll earn this year. Since she seems to be pretty well-advised, she probably will. A lot of less organized people making those numbers will not (the Coyote & Crow guy, for example, who made ONE MILLION and is now bankrupt).

But I'll be making my money, and more, over and over again every year. No fancy Kickstarters needed, just making good product for real gamers.

According to interviews, Kelsey claims that SD took 3 years to create. So remove KS's cut, all the other people she has to pay, the printing and delivery costs, and then divide what's left by three: that's what she earned "per year" for this. She would have to be very organized and meticulous for that per-year earning number to reach six figures.



P.S. Once again, this past month broke the record as my biggest earning month of all time. Something that's happening every two or three months lately.

Whelp...that's 1.2 million bucks that won't be going into Hazards-of-the-Bro's coffers.

If anyone is still playing this game in a year, maybe I'll check it out.

I watched a few videos of people talking about this game. Everything they laud about it were features that already existed in the game decades ago.

Quote from: Timothe on April 02, 2023, 08:13:29 AM
I watched a few videos of people talking about this game. Everything they laud about it were features that already existed in the game decades ago.

Then you missed the entire point of those videos.  "Whats old is New again" and a fresh new look at old ideas in a cleaner format is what it takes to make $1.3M in a single rpg product launch.

I have no interest in 5E or 5E derivative nonsense. I really don't. Game time is too precious.

I'm working hard to get my ruleset out by the end of the year. Possibly sooner.

I suspect that Shadowdark will still be going in a year's time as there are enough designers jumping onto the bandwagon and a steady trickle of modules and add-ons is coming out despite the finished product not being out yet.   Add to that is that it's very easy to convert most OSR modules to SD.

My position is that, although there's nothing staggeringly new about SD, it's greatly preferable to a 5e that has become bloated and doesn't work for me much beyond the 5th or 6th level.

OSR produces a superb range of adventures and settings - Stonehell, Beyond the Wall, the Night Wolf Inn, most of the OSE adventures, Red Tide, Deep Carbon Observatory, etc., etc., etc.   and if SD opens them up to a wider audience that's OK with me.   Any one of these is better than another tired supplement set in the Forgotten Realms.

I think most everything being said about Shadowdark can be said about 90% of the OSR retroclone/simulacrum market. Put those playing OD&D, AD&D, or B/X to one side, almost everything else is just a rephrasing if not verbatim restatement of one of the original rulesets plus some random houserules and new art (some of which is just free internet clickart).

Criticizing Shadowdark for being "derivative" is hilariously ironic—where is the "originality" in ACKS, OSE, Labyrinth Lord, etc.? Even games one step away from this, like Castles & Crusades, are just ripoffs of the original material plus one changed mechanic. This entire niche of the rpg hobby is either people playing the original rules or playing a set of rules completely ripped off of those original rules. I don't have a problem with that—I own and like most of these sets—but this haughty denigration of certain OSR sets over other OSR sets on the grounds of originality is just silly.

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 03, 2023, 08:31:48 AM
I think most everything being said about Shadowdark can be said about 90% of the OSR retroclone/simulacrum market. Put those playing OD&D, AD&D, or B/X to one side, almost everything else is just a rephrasing if not verbatim restatement of one of the original rulesets plus some random houserules and new art (some of which is just free internet clickart).

Criticizing Shadowdark for being "derivative" is hilariously ironic—where is the "originality" in ACKS, OSE, Labyrinth Lord, etc.? Even games one step away from this, like Castles & Crusades, are just ripoffs of the original material plus one changed mechanic. This entire niche of the rpg hobby is either people playing the original rules or playing a set of rules completely ripped off of those original rules. I don't have a problem with that—I own and like most of these sets—but this haughty denigration of certain OSR sets over other OSR sets on the grounds of originality is just silly.

The thing is the OSR You Tubers didn't fall over themselves to claim LotFP or OSE was actually innovative and new. It was presented as it actually was. A retroclone. By both the authors and the critics. Who didn't have an existing relationship with the author. Shadowdark is being advertised (and make no mistake these You Tubers are advertising it regardless of if they are paid off or not.) as this bold and innovative new game that merges 5E and B/X. But it's no more innovative than Five Torches Deep. It's a dissonance from what is being told and what is actually existent. Which makes the whole thing come off as suspicious to me. Why present a game dishonestly?

Presumably though if ShadowDark had been presented as a retro-clone that would have been misleading?   The Kickstarter campaign doesn't go much further than claiming that it's "Old school gaming.   New school mechanics".     Hardly a devastating claim of originality.

Quote from: Gegilles on April 02, 2023, 09:40:42 PM
I have no interest in 5E or 5E derivative nonsense.

This, 100%.

You are conflating two issuses:

1. To play any WotC edition or its derivative is to support the explicit racism of WotC. I have made clear I will not do that moving forward.

2. Can everyone please stop thinking like a player and think more broadly? The bottom line is people want to create and the want to do so safely under TSR-era D&D. The retroclones allow you to do so AND they created a flowering of D&D culture including rulesets, modules, supplements, conventions, community, and life-long friendships - all under the banner of D&D as it was intended and not the WokeC hot garbage.

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 03, 2023, 08:31:48 AM
I think most everything being said about Shadowdark can be said about 90% of the OSR retroclone/simulacrum market. Put those playing OD&D, AD&D, or B/X to one side, almost everything else is just a rephrasing if not verbatim restatement of one of the original rulesets plus some random houserules and new art (some of which is just free internet clickart).

Criticizing Shadowdark for being "derivative" is hilariously ironic—where is the "originality" in ACKS, OSE, Labyrinth Lord, etc.? Even games one step away from this, like Castles & Crusades, are just ripoffs of the original material plus one changed mechanic. This entire niche of the rpg hobby is either people playing the original rules or playing a set of rules completely ripped off of those original rules. I don't have a problem with that—I own and like most of these sets—but this haughty denigration of certain OSR sets over other OSR sets on the grounds of originality is just silly.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 01, 2023, 01:36:43 PM

Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
I can't help to think when it comes to critics of Shadowdark, that there might be a tinge of jealousy involved.

A bit of "God dammit! Why didn't I think of that!" sort of thing.

I perused the quick start rules. Sure, not everything there is original.

The presentation is good, clear, concise.

Artwork is definitely within the OSR style.

she used her connections within the industry, which btw there is NOTHING wrong in doing so, to spread the word. Anyone who has any business sense would do the same thing.

She got great traction from many online reviewers (YouTube for example) and IIRC recognition from Forbes magazine doesn't hurt.

Now the Kickstarter is done and she raised more than $1 million.

So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?

What would I have to be jealous about? Again, raising ONE MILLION sure seems like a lot, but that's gross not net, and depending on what she promised and how careful she was, after you deduct all the various costs, she MIGHT end up earning more in that kickstarter than I'll earn this year. Since she seems to be pretty well-advised, she probably will. A lot of less organized people making those numbers will not (the Coyote & Crow guy, for example, who made ONE MILLION and is now bankrupt).

But I'll be making my money, and more, over and over again every year. No fancy Kickstarters needed, just making good product for real gamers.

According to interviews, Kelsey claims that SD took 3 years to create. So remove KS's cut, all the other people she has to pay, the printing and delivery costs, and then divide what's left by three: that's what she earned "per year" for this. She would have to be very organized and meticulous for that per-year earning number to reach six figures.



P.S. Once again, this past month broke the record as my biggest earning month of all time. Something that's happening every two or three months lately.

RPGPundit, I think that's great for your situation. Believe me, if you can make a living at RPG design, that's awesome.

What I'm saying is some of the negative comments by the detractors are not much more than strawman arguments. They're not critiquing the rules themselves. They arguments are based upon "this is nothing new" or "it's just repackaged blah-blah-blah". Again, if anyone has any negative comments based upon the rules playability, then I willing to listen. Otherwise, those detractors do sound a bit on the jealous side.

I have no dog in this "fight". I'm just saying my point of view.

If people wanted to simply make money, they'd just publish strictly to whatever shite WokeC puts out.

Thankfully there are those who care about the origins of the hobby and the play-style that game engenders.

Quote from: Gegilles on April 03, 2023, 11:08:29 AM
If people wanted to simply make money, they'd just publish strictly  to whatever shite WokeC put out.

Thankfully there are those who care about the origins of the hobby and the play-style  that game engenders.

I can get behind that.