Greetings!

Very cool! ShadowDark has exceeded well over 1,000,000 dollars! I think it reached over 1.2 MILLION.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.

I agree.  I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 12:08:05 PM

Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.

I agree.  I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.

Tight and focused paid and unpaid shilling from friends/connections + an actual marketing campaign did not hurt her cause.

But I suspect that it was really the article in FORBES online that put ShadowDark over the top... 

And there was some lucky timing involved with Wotzi getting stupid about the OGL.

Her 5e adventures probably have a much bigger general audience than most OSR publishers. I'd say that she was likely able to leverage a portion of that audience into giving SD a go.


But honestly, who gives a fuck about that?

What I want to know is can arguing about woke purity tests get us to the magic 31 pages of free ShadowDark advertising on the RPGSite?

I have found the last few posts rather lacking guys.

Do better.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 12:08:05 PM

Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.

I agree.  I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.

I don't either. And didn't back Shadowdark.

But I have to point out that you just recently started a thread praising OSE, which is simply B/X. Not throwing shade on OSE, I backed it, but the standard seems odd to me.

Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.

I see you skipped the discussion and went right to the end to post. 

Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.

Dozens, you say? The Shadowdark KS has 13000+ backers. Homebrew is great, but a well designed product has a lot of thought and playtesting put into it.

It's not ground breaking, it's not earth shattering, it's not even that novel, yeah yeah. But 80% of success is showing up, and Shadowdark showed up.

Greetings!

Here, DM Bloodworth, host of Unscripted & Unchained, provides an additional analysis of the ShadowDark RPG.

ShadowDark takes many systems and mechanics from other games and presents them, perhaps also modified, in one book. Layout, presentation, and artwork are all straightforward and fantastic! Kelsey also includes various modern game concepts from 5E and blends them well with OSR concepts into the ShadowDark game. Everything looks outstanding!

Some people whine that "There isn't anything really new or original in ShadowDark!"

Well, sure there is. Presenting in new and innovative ways. Combining older concepts and newer concepts in interesting, creative ways. Furthermore, strictly speaking, there is precious few things anywhere in the OSR that are genuinely *new* or *original*. If you are happy with OSE, or Minotaurs & Mazes, or whatever--great! That doesn't mean, however, that having new games produced and contributed to the hobby--like ShadowDark--isn't worthwhile, or meaningful. Many other people respond precisely to the same subject, but flavoured or presented in a different way. Kelsey has very clearly been influenced by ICRPG, LOTFP, OD&D, AD&D, DCC, and 5E. There is nothing wrong with her creating a new game and contributing her creativity to the TPG hobby.

Secondly, there are many gamers that are not fucking grognards that already own 12 different game systems. They were introduced to RPG's through only 5E. ShadowDark will likely also be attractive to them, and introduce the OSR gaming style to them. Growing the hobby--and especially gaining more fans of the OSR style, to me, seems like an excellent contribution and worthwhile effort that should be celebrated and applauded.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 12:50:52 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 12:08:05 PM

Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.

I agree.  I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.

I don't either. And didn't back Shadowdark.

But I have to point out that you just recently started a thread praising OSE, which is simply B/X. Not throwing shade on OSE, I backed it, but the standard seems odd to me.

My guess is that:

• a lot of backers are 5e players and Shadowdark is their introduction to OSR-like games.
• a lot of backers were already fans of the designer's 5e adventures, followed her on Youtube, members of her Discord, social media, etc.
• some backers find existing OSR games and communities to be intimidating, off-putting, or even unwelcoming

If so, it literally doesn't matter that other games do the same things. These backers aren't looking at, interested in, or aware of those other games.

Quote from: Festus on March 30, 2023, 02:14:43 PM

My guess is that:

• a lot of backers are 5e players and Shadowdark is their introduction to OSR-like games.
• a lot of backers were already fans of the designer's 5e adventures, followed her on Youtube, members of her Discord, social media, etc.
• some backers find existing OSR games and communities to be intimidating, off-putting, or even unwelcoming

If so, it literally doesn't matter that other games do the same things. These backers aren't looking at, interested in, or aware of those other games.

And just like that market oppottunities present themselves for OSR writers to push their products on folks now hungry to learn and consume more.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 12:50:52 PM
I don't either. And didn't back Shadowdark.

But I have to point out that you just recently started a thread praising OSE, which is simply B/X. Not throwing shade on OSE, I backed it, but the standard seems odd to me.

What standard?  I am not sure what the hell you are talking about.  I was saying that because I have OSE it does early less complicated fantasy.  All Shadowdark would be is a duplicate product that sits on my shelf.  why do I need that?  The answer is I do not.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PM
Snipping out garbage that has nothing to do with anything I asked

Quote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PMHer 5e adventures probably have a much bigger general audience than most OSR publishers. I'd say that she was likely able to leverage a portion of that audience into giving SD a go.

With OSE I can use OSE and any B/X adventure for years of gaming with the one book if I like.  For a lot less money

Quote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PMBut honestly, who gives a fuck about that?

Not me.  She isnt the first designer who put out something I cant already do with what I have, wont be the last.

I can't help to think when it comes to critics of Shadowdark, that there might be a tinge of jealousy involved.

A bit of "God dammit! Why didn't I think of that!" sort of thing.

I perused the quick start rules. Sure, not everything there is original.

The presentation is good, clear, concise.

Artwork is definitely within the OSR style.

she used her connections within the industry, which btw there is NOTHING wrong in doing so, to spread the word. Anyone who has any business sense would do the same thing.

She got great traction from many online reviewers (YouTube for example) and IIRC recognition from Forbes magazine doesn't hurt.

Now the Kickstarter is done and she raised more than $1 million.

So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?

Me? Shit, I'll admit it. Yeah, I am a little bit. But my knowledge of 5E is minimal, which Shadowdark is partly based upon (and I hate 5e). So, there really wouldn't have been any chance of me coming up with such of game.

Because quite frankly, all of the negatives are not of the game mechanics themselves, but for the most part opinions and straw man arguments. Saying Shadowdark "isn't original"  or "it's just repackaged rules" isn't an argument, let alone a fair critique of the rules on how they play.

If someone can give a true opinion on the rules and if there are any faults within them, which form what I've seen there hasn't been ANY negatives so far by reviewers on YouTube, then I'm all ears.

Otherwise, the "criticisms" smack of jealousy.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 12:08:05 PM
I agree.  I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.

First off the OSR is not a zero sum game. Thus Shadowdark is great for some folks and not great for others. And this is OK.

As an RPG, Shadowdark is a well-designed minimalist system that plays well. Which is harder to pull off than most folks think. Being minimalist every element of the system has to pull its weight and it does. After playing it and refereeing it I see the appeal.

But it doesn't mean I am going to drop using my Majestic Fantasy RPG (a Swords & Wizardry variant) in favor of Shadowdark. I like a bit more detail than what Shadowdark has in the rules I use for my campaigns.

But also the same time, because the system is well-designed I can see how to take some of what I do with my Majestic Fantasy RPG and translate it to work as part of Shadowdark. Some details will be lost due to Shadowdark's minimalism but the most important elements will port over. So likely for a few things I do, I will be releasing Shadowdark versions.

Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?

Nope.  I am glad she is successful with it, I don't care that she is a women or even a gay women.

I have what i need for my fantasy needs and I don't need to spend money on a game I won't ever use.   I don't do that anymore.  I only keep the books I use and sell the ones that I don't so my collection has been trimmed down considerably.

I only speak for myself, not for others.

Quote from: estar on March 30, 2023, 03:28:18 PM
First off the OSR is not a zero sum game. Thus Shadowdark is great for some folks and not great for others. And this is OK.

As an RPG, Shadowdark is a well-designed minimalist system that plays well. Which is harder to pull off than most folks think. Being minimalist every element of the system has to pull its weight and it does. After playing it and refereeing it I see the appeal.

But it doesn't mean I am going to drop using my Majestic Fantasy RPG (a Swords & Wizardry variant) in favor of Shadowdark. I like a bit more detail than what Shadowdark has in the rules I use for my campaigns.

But also the same time, because the system is well-designed I can see how to take some of what I do with my Majestic Fantasy RPG and translate it to work as part of Shadowdark. Some details will be lost due to Shadowdark's minimalism but the most important elements will port over. So likely for a few things I do, I will be releasing Shadowdark versions.

Yep that is great.  I am sure it will work for some.   I wish her success, I just dont need it.