Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 10:12:44 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2023, 08:20:05 AM

The only valid points made have been how inorganic the push for this game has been, which I noticed as well.

From an OSR perspective, I think the push feels more inorganic than it actually is. I first became aware of Dionne because Runehammer did an interview with her about her 5e adventure design 4-ish years ago. Her 5e adventures have been big sellers and highly praised in the 5e world for awhile, and I suspect most of her KS backers come from the 5e sphere. As 5e kickstarters go, a million dollars is good but not weirdly so.

Even at a casual glance the sudden push seemed suspect to me, cuz I'm not even OSR. Yet all of a sudden I started getting glowing reviews left and right recommended to me in YouTube, and the few I saw (like from DungeonCraft) got a really strong "pimping this for my friend" vibe to it--which isn't necessarily a bad thing (at least not horrible), but does bring up ethical questions, as was brought up earlier on the thread. Cuz it's not necessarily pushed on the merits, but cuz "I have friends working on this thing" (not just the woman writing it, but I believe Runehammer did design work, who's also friends with and has worked with Prof.DM), and I don't recall them disclosing their ties, though, I haven't really delved on them after the first wave like a week+ ago.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2023, 05:23:11 PM

Even at a casual glance the sudden push seemed suspect to me, cuz I'm not even OSR. Yet all of a sudden I started getting glowing reviews left and right recommended to me in YouTube, and the few I saw (like from DungeonCraft) got a really strong "pimping this for my friend" vibe to it--which isn't necessarily a bad thing (at least not horrible), but does bring up ethical questions, as was brought up earlier on the thread. Cuz it's not necessarily pushed on the merits, but cuz "I have friends working on this thing" (not just the woman writing it, but I believe Runehammer did design work, who's also friends with and has worked with Prof.DM), and I don't recall them disclosing their ties, though, I haven't really delved on them after the first wave like a week+ ago.

Dionne and Runehammer have been totally transparent about their friendship. She's called him a mentor and he's been praising her stuff literally for years. That's old news to anyone who has followed either. I can't speak to the others because I haven't followed them like I have Runehammer. But since Brandish Gilhelm (Runehammer) does art, layout design, and publishing, he's worked with a lot of other creators.

Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/

Yet another reason to skip it.  I hate running with the pack.

Quote from: Persimmon on March 22, 2023, 08:12:14 PM

Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/

Yet another reason to skip it.  I hate running with the pack.

Hey, man, if old Business Majors dig it, it must be radical!

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 22, 2023, 08:27:49 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on March 22, 2023, 08:12:14 PM

Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/

Yet another reason to skip it.  I hate running with the pack.

Hey, man, if old Business Majors dig it, it must be radical!

Don't you dare sully the good reputation of Huey Lewis & the News....

Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/

What more is there to say...

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Persimmon on March 22, 2023, 09:11:17 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 22, 2023, 08:27:49 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on March 22, 2023, 08:12:14 PM

Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/

Yet another reason to skip it.  I hate running with the pack.

Hey, man, if old Business Majors dig it, it must be radical!

Don't you dare sully the good reputation of Huey Lewis & the News....

In '87, Huey released Fore!, their most accomplished album. I think their undisputed masterpiece is "Hip To Be Square". A song so catchy, most people probably don't listen to the lyrics. But they should, because it's not just about the pleasures of conformity and the importance of trends. It's also a personal statement about the band itself. Hey, Persimmon!

(Murders Persimmon with an axe)

Try reviewing gaming systems now, you fuckin' stupid bastard!


Getting back on topic, is there anything more damning of this new game than fucking Forbes gushing about it in an article? Considering the creator's wife is a Lesbian, she sure seems to have her hands on a lot of slimy industry tentacles.

"Sports" is a better album than "Fore," though the latter isn't bad.  But yeah, the Forbes endorsement, if anything, is an indictment of quality not a indication.

There are two kinds of marketing.  In brief, we'll call them "discovery" and "promotion."  In the paradigm of discovery, marketing exists to find consumers for whom your product meets a need that they already have and recognize.  For example, an add for laundry detergent might describe common issues with laundry detergents (not cleaning well enough, needing pretreatment, etc.) and then describe how the product meets those challenges and/or fills the requirements of the consumer.  The key here is that the marketing is NOT trying to establish a need for the overall product; it is simply trying to inform the consumer of the properties of a product the consumer already desires.  Most beer ads would fall into this category.

Then there's what we'll call promotional marketing.  This kind attempts to create new consumers for a product.  It is framed to suggest that the consumer actually needs the product, despite never knowing about that product or recognizing the need for it.  This kind of marketing focuses on persuading the consumer that they need the general utility filled by the product, and less on the features of the product within its own product space.  Rather than contrast the features of the product versus other products competing in the same space, the advertisement focuses on the utility of the product for those who have never expressed a use for that product category.  Think exercise equipment adds.  They tend to be directed towards the consumer would wants to start exercising, as opposed folks firmly in the exercise space who just need a different kind of exercise bike.

Now, good marketing tends to include elements of both types.  Discovery marketing runs a risk of never reaching critical mass.  If you are trying to grab a part of an already small market, you may not gain enough share to be sustainable without growing the consumer base.  Adding one more laundry detergent may simply fragment the market to the point where both the new product and many of the old products are sold at a rate that doesn't allow them to be profitable.  But promotional marketing runs the risk of alienating consumers when they discover that they didn't actually need the product after all.  How many people have unused exercise equipment in their garage?  How likely are they to continue to buy  exercise bikes in the future, when they don't use the one they have?  So the most successful marketing both identifies those who are already looking for your product, and also grows the base in those sectors where the need is genuine.  And that's where this all ties into Shadowdark.

The marketing profession today leans far more heavily into promotional marketing.  What major corporation wants a slow, steady increase in consumer base?  Virtually none.  They'd all rather have the massive glut of sales from a fad, even if it's not sustainable.  So, the promotion of Shadowdark starts to make sense, especially when you find out the creator's partner has marketing experience.  From almost out of nowhere, all of the Youtube channels I watch about RPG products are gushing about this new game that will revolutionize RPGs!  We just have to play it!  There's a preview PDF, but every marketer worth their salt knows that consumers are generally low-effort.  Consumers pay far more attention to what they hear via ads, as opposed to information they have to work to find.  Very little of the promotion has been about the game and its mechanics, about specifics.  This triggers alarms in just about anyone who has been burned by promotional marketing.  Don't tell me that I need it; tell me how it meets my needs.  And that hasn't been the focus of the marketing I've seen so far, especially among the Youtube "influencers" that have weighed in on the game.

I think that Shadowdark was being built, and then was rushed to a Kickstarter when the OGL 1.1 fiasco occurred.  The marketing brains recognized that the OGL mess provided both a need and a promotional opportunity.  Then, when WotC caved (at least to public perception), the whole "need" part of the marketing got counterfeited.  So the game and promotion was left with a "You need this game!  It's new and innovative!", instead of the probable appeal that would have been based on its mostly non-OGL format (there is some 5.1 SRD).

So I think that some of the knee-jerk wariness about the game is the direct result of the way it has been marketed.  As is apparent from the folks in this thread, there are a large number of people who don't really see the need for the game (and are unpersuaded by appeals to "growing the community" or "bridging the gap between 5e and OSR") and view it as glorified houserules with slick packaging.  And the slick packaging also helps trigger those knee-jerk impulses.  And the Shadowdark Defense Brigades are doing the game no favors.  You don't convince people that a product meets their needs by accusing them of unreasonably hating the game due to sexism, blah, blah, blah.  You can tell who the SJW shills are, simply because they never attempt to persuade, only denigrate and shame.

The game might be financially successful.  Good for her.  But I'll be real curious as to how easy it is to find a game of Shadowdark on Roll20 3-5 years from now.  This has all the hallmarks of fad marketing.  Maybe it won't be.  But I'm betting this game will end up next to the Beanie Babies, Bowflex, and Peleton in the garage...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 22, 2023, 10:42:41 PM
I think that Shadowdark was being built, and then was rushed to a Kickstarter when the OGL 1.1 fiasco occurred.

Just as a point of information, the Kickstarter date was set in advance of the whole OGL fiasco. In fact, when everything started going tits up, she put out a video on YouTube mentioning that she might have to push the planned Kickstarter back because she was going through and scrubbing the OGL out of the game. But as it turns out she got things in order ahead of time and was able to launch the KS project as planned.

Greetings!

Nice Marketing primer, Eirikrautha!

Forbes having an article about the game doesn't surprise me, really. I don't understand the gnashing hate people seem to have though. Geesus. The girl Kelsey was a professional Journalist for some years. A *Newspaper* journalist. She learned several skills, I am sure--things like writing well; presentation; layout; research; and also marketing. THEN, her companion is a marketing professional. I imagine that they have made friends and contacts amongst various media and marketing outlets. Have a phone call, "Hey, Suzie Q! Say something good about our game!" Or "Hi, Joe! Can you look this game draft over and help me with layout?" Then, Kelsey is also friends with RUNEHAMMER, who is also a game designer, artist, and knows things about layout, presentation, and other technical aspects.

These are normal relationships and interactions for people.

Sometimes, the vibe I hear from people is "Oh MY GOD! Kelsey has FRIENDS! Kelsey has made contacts with people in the OSR and other industries! SUS!!!!"

It's all about networking and making friends. That's how success is built.

I think some people involved with the OSR and gaming must live in a fucking outhouse, or under a fucking bridge.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My jump the shark gif was definitely over target...

Quote from: SHARK on March 22, 2023, 11:19:15 PM
Forbes having an article about the game doesn't surprise me, really. I don't understand the gnashing hate people seem to have though. Geesus.
...
These are normal relationships and interactions for people.
...

Got it wrong homie.

Nobody cares that she has friends.

And it's definitely not hate.  It's just an elfgame...


It's the sheer W.T.F.!? Novelty of seeing a borderline Wotzi/Baizuo level product launch of an indie Game marketed to the OSR crowd.

For me. Literally this:



I can't hate the hustle. These chicks brought their marketing 'A' game for sure!

But come on man - an article in *Forbes online!?

At this point, that shits just hilarious!


When you engage in marketing like this:

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 22, 2023, 10:42:41 PM
...
The marketing profession today leans far more heavily into promotional marketing.  What major corporation wants a slow, steady increase in consumer base?  Virtually none.  They'd all rather have the massive glut of sales from a fad, even if it's not sustainable.  So, the promotion of Shadowdark starts to make sense, especially when you find out the creator's partner has marketing experience.  From almost out of nowhere, all of the Youtube channels I watch about RPG products are gushing about this new game that will revolutionize RPGs!  We just have to play it!  There's a preview PDF, but every marketer worth their salt knows that consumers are generally low-effort.  Consumers pay far more attention to what they hear via ads, as opposed to information they have to work to find.  Very little of the promotion has been about the game and its mechanics, about specifics.  This triggers alarms in just about anyone who has been burned by promotional marketing.
...

And it hits a group of straight-up Jaded OSR motherfuckers like the kind that inhabit this board...

It shouldn't be the least bit surprising that upon witnessing a group of KYTube 'influencers' practically trip over themselves to see who can heap praise on the game the thickest, that: "What? Who? Oh please; Fuck off now..." are the leading responses.

This place just ain't their crowd.

So they get the royal piss taken out of them for the ridiculous fawning praise from their KYTube buddies.

So What.

Seeing as the ShadowDark KS just clicked over $1Mil; I guarantee they'll somehow find a way to get over it....


They're not hurting. Like I said earlier: I can only dream that if I ever release an RPG, that its launch generates a 26+ page discussion thread of free advertising...

*I'm taking notes. That shit's straight over-the-top. Fucking Brilliant!

Just because you didn't see it coming doesn't mean it came out of nowhere. Things can actually exist independently of one's awareness of them.

I know, I know. Crazy talk, right?

Quote from: Jaeger on March 23, 2023, 01:40:57 AM
My jump the shark gif was definitely over target...

Quote from: SHARK on March 22, 2023, 11:19:15 PM
Forbes having an article about the game doesn't surprise me, really. I don't understand the gnashing hate people seem to have though. Geesus.
...
These are normal relationships and interactions for people.
...

Got it wrong homie.

Nobody cares that she has friends.

And it's definitely not hate.  It's just an elfgame...


It's the sheer W.T.F.!? Novelty of seeing a borderline Wotzi/Baizuo level product launch of an indie Game marketed to the OSR crowd.

For me. Literally this:



I can't hate the hustle. These chicks brought their marketing 'A' game for sure!

But come on man - an article in *Forbes online!?

At this point, that shits just hilarious!


When you engage in marketing like this:

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 22, 2023, 10:42:41 PM
...
The marketing profession today leans far more heavily into promotional marketing.  What major corporation wants a slow, steady increase in consumer base?  Virtually none.  They'd all rather have the massive glut of sales from a fad, even if it's not sustainable.  So, the promotion of Shadowdark starts to make sense, especially when you find out the creator's partner has marketing experience.  From almost out of nowhere, all of the Youtube channels I watch about RPG products are gushing about this new game that will revolutionize RPGs!  We just have to play it!  There's a preview PDF, but every marketer worth their salt knows that consumers are generally low-effort.  Consumers pay far more attention to what they hear via ads, as opposed to information they have to work to find.  Very little of the promotion has been about the game and its mechanics, about specifics.  This triggers alarms in just about anyone who has been burned by promotional marketing.
...

And it hits a group of straight-up Jaded OSR motherfuckers like the kind that inhabit this board...

It shouldn't be the least bit surprising that upon witnessing a group of KYTube 'influencers' practically trip over themselves to see who can heap praise on the game the thickest, that: "What? Who? Oh please; Fuck off now..." are the leading responses.

This place just ain't their crowd.

So they get the royal piss taken out of them for the ridiculous fawning praise from their KYTube buddies.

So What.

Seeing as the ShadowDark KS just clicked over $1Mil; I guarantee they'll somehow find a way to get over it....


They're not hurting. Like I said earlier: I can only dream that if I ever release an RPG, that its launch generates a 26+ page discussion thread of free advertising...

*I'm taking notes. That shit's straight over-the-top. Fucking Brilliant!

Greetings!

*KYTube*!!!!! *Laughing* Oh, damn, my friend! That had me roaring with laughter!

Chomp! Chomp! "Jaded OSR motherfuckers!" *Laughing*

I love the girl's *Hustle*! I also like boldness, and, yeah. I'm also thrilled that she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style. Not to be overtly vulgar--and I'm definitely not simping for her--but her timing, her presentation, of *Boom*--it' a very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC. So, I am a fan. I hope she does very well, and becomes *Hugely* successful and *rich*. I think it is great for everyone to get up like tigers and bite back at WOTC's BS.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 23, 2023, 02:27:42 AM

I love the girl's *Hustle*! I also like boldness, and, yeah. I'm also thrilled that she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style. Not to be overtly vulgar--and I'm definitely not simping for her--but her timing, her presentation, of *Boom*--it' a very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC. So, I am a fan. I hope she does very well, and becomes *Hugely* successful and *rich*. I think it is great for everyone to get up like tigers and bite back at WOTC's BS.

Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus.  Don't even care if the thing taking the bite is good or not, woke or not, or almost any other criteria you could name. And I don't just mean market share, even long term, either.  Anything that takes attention away from their D&D The Animal Farm Brought to Life edition is great.