Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2023, 08:20:05 AM

The only valid points made have been how inorganic the push for this game has been, which I noticed as well.

From an OSR perspective, I think the push feels more inorganic than it actually is. I first became aware of Dionne because Runehammer did an interview with her about her 5e adventure design 4-ish years ago. Her 5e adventures have been big sellers and highly praised in the 5e world for awhile, and I suspect most of her KS backers come from the 5e sphere. As 5e kickstarters go, a million dollars is good but not weirdly so.

Hi Guys..

I'm new to this site and will admit that I was drawn here by the ShadowDark discussion.   I'm enthusiastic but not necessarily for the same reason as some posters and do not agree with some of the criticisms, again for different reasons.

By way of introduction:  I've been role-playing since the early 80s, mainly Runequest, but also AD&D, Traveller and Call of Cthulhu.   I've been DMing 5e for just about as long as it has been out because that's what's easiest to get players for in my role-playing club.   I have, however, occasionally managed to get my group to try one-shots of Black Hack, Barbarians of Lemuria, Into the Odd and ran Stonehell on-line for a while,  So, I think I could be said to have a foot in many camps.   Indeed, D&D in any of its forms has never been my favourite, I find it too fiddly, subject to power creep and a pain to DM as players come up with weird character builds based on books I don't have.

So part of my enthusiasm for ShadowDark is based on the fact that it's not 5e.   It doesn't seem to suffer particularly from power creep as it only goes up to 10th level and you don't get any overpowering abilities as you level up.  It's also a notch simpler than 5e and it will not be a struggle to know all the rules.   As a bonus, the surface similarities to 5e (advantage, ascending AC, etc.) are likely to make it easier to persuade my group to play it.

Another reason for my enthusiasm is that the system has enough traction to be well supported.  Already there are quite a few add-ons and adventures on DriveThru although, admittedly their quality is, to say the least, variable.  Kelsey herself, however, on the basis of her published 5e stuff is a very accomplished adventure writer and I expect that she will keep up the quality for ShadowDark.

I'm not sure yet about the magic.    With a 1 in 20 chance of a wizard mishap and some of these almost potentially fatal, it's a wonder that any wizard would survive their  apprenticeship.

I don't have so much problem with the cleric equivalents as the required penances (at least at low levels) are not particularly onerous.

I think the timed torch rule might be a bit fiddly at the table but I'm happy to give it a go.

What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship.  A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.

I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!

Quote from: MadMattUK on March 22, 2023, 10:31:16 AMSo part of my enthusiasm for ShadowDark is based on the fact that it's not 5e.   It doesn't seem to suffer particularly from power creep as it only goes up to 10th level and you don't get any overpowering abilities as you level up.  It's also a notch simpler than 5e and it will not be a struggle to know all the rules.   As a bonus, the surface similarities to 5e (advantage, ascending AC, etc.) are likely to make it easier to persuade my group to play it.

That's a big thing for me as well. I sort of wish that WotC would publish a Player's Handbook with only level 1-10 content, and in some ways this game may do that for me. I think my group would never play this BTB because they won't want to be limited to 4 class options, but I hope there will be a bunch of ideas I can use in my regular 5E game.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 22, 2023, 07:49:44 AM


Something can be both valid and stupid at the same time.

There's nothing stupid about making sure leisure purchases align to your personal preferences.

I'm not going to get something non-essential made in China (so any RPG, even from a clearly non-woke publisher, printed in China is out), but if I need to buy light bulbs, and the only ones in store are made in China, I'll buy them.

Quote from: MadMattUK on March 22, 2023, 10:38:48 AM
I'm not sure yet about the magic.    With a 1 in 20 chance of a wizard mishap and some of these almost potentially fatal, it's a wonder that any wizard would survive their  apprenticeship.

I don't have so much problem with the cleric equivalents as the required penances (at least at low levels) are not particularly onerous.

I think the timed torch rule might be a bit fiddly at the table but I'm happy to give it a go.

Yeah, the fatality is another thing. It would be acceptable in a pulp context, where someone who's never cast any spells in their life but has studied ancient languages tries casting a spell from a spellbook they retrieved that caused the monster that's chasing them to start chasing them. Then chance of death seems reasonable.

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:25:25 PM
What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship.  A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.

I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!

It's that the reason for disapproval from the god is retarded. You rolled a natural 1, now your god is displeased with you. That's terrible. Not you acted against your god's wishes, now your god is displeased with you. That's awesome.

Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 12:37:17 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:25:25 PM
What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship.  A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.

I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!

It's that the reason for disapproval from the god is retarded. You rolled a natural 1, now your god is displeased with you. That's terrible. Not you acted against your god's wishes, now your god is displeased with you. That's awesome.

I can appreciate your criticism, if you take that perspective. But that's only one perspective.

Another perspective is that the roll doesn't model the character's action - It models the god's action. I.e., the god has finally got around to paying attention to your shenanigans and he/she/it is pissed. Oh, what's that? You're a perfectly pious cleric and have never done anything worthy of disapproval? Haha, right!

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:45:55 PM

Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 12:37:17 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:25:25 PM
What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship.  A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.

I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!

It's that the reason for disapproval from the god is retarded. You rolled a natural 1, now your god is displeased with you. That's terrible. Not you acted against your god's wishes, now your god is displeased with you. That's awesome.

I can appreciate your criticism, if you take that perspective. But that's only one perspective.

Another perspective is that the roll doesn't model the character's action - It models the god's action. I.e., the god has finally got around to paying attention to your shenanigans and he/she/it is pissed. Oh, what's that? You're a perfectly pious cleric and have never done anything worthy of disapproval? Haha, right!

If that were the intention behind the design, it would have been designed better - and made clear. Since it obviously wasn't, that's just a post hoc justification for a poorly thought out mechanic.

Worth remembering though that the penance for a 1st Tier clerical mishap is goods and services to the value of 5GP.   Hardly onerous and arguably something that the cleric should be doing anyhow.   (Offering sacrifices, running a soup kitchen for the poor, etc.).   Admittedly it goes up with higher tiers but never more than 150GP and, by the time the cleric is in a position to cast 5th Tier spells, that's going to be pocket change).

The good thing about OSR in general is that it's easy to swap rules in or out and I'm sure I could think of something to replace the mishaps if I put my mind to it.

Also, the XP for treasure is abstracted. It isn't 1 XP for 1 GP but 1:3:6 XP for good:better:best treasure. There is no XP penalty for having to spend gold in penance. It's really a mechanism to use up a cleric's gold and reinforce roleplaying. If your world features something like the medieval Catholic vow of poverty, the mechanic reinforces that fiction.

I still think I'd flavor it differently, but the outcome seems fine and no more arbitrary than a lot of mechanics in a lot of games.

Quote from: MadMattUK on March 22, 2023, 01:07:56 PM
Worth remembering though that the penance for a 1st Tier clerical mishap is goods and services to the value of 5GP.   Hardly onerous and arguably something that the cleric should be doing anyhow.   (Offering sacrifices, running a soup kitchen for the poor, etc.).   Admittedly it goes up with higher tiers but never more than 150GP and, by the time the cleric is in a position to cast 5th Tier spells, that's going to be pocket change).

The good thing about OSR in general is that it's easy to swap rules in or out and I'm sure I could think of something to replace the mishaps if I put my mind to it.

Like you said, they should be doing it anyway, so why does it only come in with a bad roll? And it still doesn't change that tying it to a roll, and not the character's actions makes the experience less immersive, rather than more.

It's a much better experience if the GM notes the PC's actions (and perhaps those of the party members) and if they go against the deity's ethos, the cleric loses a level or two of spells. Tries to cast a spell and... nothing. They realize their god is displeased. Have to think about everything that happened, figure out what it was. And then make amends for that.

When the cleric was supposed to throw in a powerful buff spell and couldn't, and the party barely escapes with their lives, that makes them seriously think about the consequences of their actions.

That would be something great. Here we've just got an alternative to Vancian casting, but the problem with alternatives to Vancian casting is just because they're different, doesn't mean they're good.

Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 01:44:53 PM
Also, the XP for treasure is abstracted. It isn't 1 XP for 1 GP but 1:3:6 XP for good:better:best treasure. There is no XP penalty for having to spend gold in penance. It's really a mechanism to use up a cleric's gold and reinforce roleplaying. If your world features something like the medieval Catholic vow of poverty, the mechanic reinforces that fiction.

I still think I'd flavor it differently, but the outcome seems fine and no more arbitrary than a lot of mechanics in a lot of games.

If you have a vow of poverty, and have to give up your gold past a certain level anyway, doesn't that basically mean if penance equals gold, you have a certain number of "free" violations of your god's ethos before it starts being an actual penalty?

Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 02:28:48 PM

If you have a vow of poverty, and have to give up your gold past a certain level anyway, doesn't that basically mean if penance equals gold, you have a certain number of "free" violations of your god's ethos before it starts being an actual penalty?

You mean like the real medieval practice of buying and selling indulgences? Yes, that is exactly what it means, just like in actual history.

Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 12:48:07 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:45:55 PM

Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 12:37:17 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:25:25 PM
What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship.  A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.

I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!

It's that the reason for disapproval from the god is retarded. You rolled a natural 1, now your god is displeased with you. That's terrible. Not you acted against your god's wishes, now your god is displeased with you. That's awesome.

I can appreciate your criticism, if you take that perspective. But that's only one perspective.

Another perspective is that the roll doesn't model the character's action - It models the god's action. I.e., the god has finally got around to paying attention to your shenanigans and he/she/it is pissed. Oh, what's that? You're a perfectly pious cleric and have never done anything worthy of disapproval? Haha, right!

If that were the intention behind the design, it would have been designed better - and made clear. Since it obviously wasn't, that's just a post hoc justification for a poorly thought out mechanic.

It's pretty clear to me from the brief discussion of disapproval in DCC. Roll a 1 and your cleric "discovers" that he's earned the disapproval of his god, here is the outcome, and the Judge normally connect the dots to fit the campaign. The rolling of the 1 does not represent the cleric's action that caused the disapproval. I'm not even sure where you're seeing ambiguity let alone post hoc justification. Where are you seeing it in the rules or commentary?

Greetings!

I think that the "Penance" mechanic is great. I view the chance of a spell failure for Clerics--or even a "Spell Mishap" as being some form of minor judgment against them, a kind of spiritual admonition, is also fine.

Your Priest character is not anywhere near as special as many would like to believe. You are mortal, and right from the start, you are wicked, sinful, disobedient, and worthy of judgment. Only through faith and continued perseverance in that righteous faith and obedience even allows you a hope of channeling such miraculous, divine power. Your sinful and debauched priest characters should be grateful that the Heavens bless you with even one such spell in a day.

Furthermore, you sow-mined and faithless morons, hear your spiritual betters! Chastise thyself from your own exalted pride and smug, self-satisfaction! The spirit realm is *real*. Evil, demonic forces are always gathered about, whispering and seducing, and distracting mortals from embracing righteousness and TRUTH. Even more so, for those people called to serve as Priests. There is spiritual warfare going on all the time, 24/7. Not merely around YOU--but also *within you*--in your soul, in your mind. It is from such impure thoughts, even that, besides anything else, that can interfere with a Priest successfully channeling a spell from the Heavens.

So, roll your D20 Spell Check, and pray you are blessed with a moment of righteous success.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/