Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 06:00:38 PM

At leas with Vancian casting it makes sense that you pray at a certain time, and get granted spells that you get to then use. If you didn't pray ahead of time, too bad. Of course there's the annoyance of not having the right spell prepared, but there is that internal consistency. It's easier to suspend disbelief there.

But obviously the much better solution is to have distinctly different magic systems, like how Spears of the Dawn handles Nganga, Griot and Marabout magic. Each system has its own flavour and works differently, rather than one system of magic with two ostensibly different implementations that more or less work the same way. If you're going to do that you should do white magic and black magic, and not have an arcane and divine split.

I can kind of see that, but also not.  For me, this is one of those places where the elegance of the system meets the handling time meets the simulation meets the game part.  That is, it's rife with compromises.  Though I do agree that the arcane/divine split is not the best way to handle it, if the systems are going to be similar.  Whatever you decide, it's going to be messy.  Some people will be unhappy with how the compromises play out.

As someone who appreciates having the players sweat on the reliability of magic, I can appreciate the attempt.

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:17:58 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."

Hmmm...

I don't think either statement is valid.

No designer is entitled to anyone's money.

Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?

Everybody, before they spend any money on a product has the right to determine that it meets all of their requirements before they spend that money.

Quote me where I was denying someone's rights or said a designer is entitled to money.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 21, 2023, 09:01:14 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on March 21, 2023, 12:01:32 AM
OSE is still probably the easiest and quickest to run, followed by S&W.  I personally like C&C a lot, but my players aren't as crazy about it and the little differences between it and the D&D clones make it slower for me to run.  And the only game I've gotten others to DM is OSE.  I've got a KS adventure for OSE coming soon and there will be a new edition of Swords & Wizardry released in a few months.  So the current plan is to finish our current C&C mini campaign; play a bit of OSE until the Swords & Wizardry stuff arrives, then switch to that for the foreseeable future.  Not sexy, but with our fairly limited gaming time, none of us want to bother with learning new systems or screwing around with so-called "modern mechanics" when we already know how shit works in our old school games.

Thank you for the information.  Do you know how it plays/runs as compared to 5e?

Well, I bought 5e stuff a couple years after it dropped and simply didn't like it.  Despite their marketing gimmicks of claiming it was some kind of return to the old ways & feel, it did not feel like D&D to me at all.  I hated pretty much everything about it.  So I flipped all my 5e books online and switch to C&C.  A couple years later I decided to check out Adventures in Middle Earth, which was the 5e version of The One Ring.  Hated that too.  Jumped into Labyrinth Lord Advanced and other retroclones around then and while I've experimented a bit since then, I always come back to the familiarity of the old school games.  I started in 1981 with the Moldvay boxed set and started AD&D shortly after, so that stuff will always be true D&D to me.  Newer players might find the mechanics clunky, but I know those games so well, I hardly ever look things up in the books while playing.  That means we get far more actual gaming in, which matters to us. 

So things like Shadowdark hold no appeal for me.

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM

Quote from: Crusader X on March 21, 2023, 05:02:39 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:09:54 AM
There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good)

What is screwy about Shadowdark's magic system?

Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.

Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?

So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.

Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.

So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.

Now if we go to the wizard, where suspension of disbelief is possible. Failing a skill check is reasonable for arcane magic. And having that spell burned until you can clear it out when you fail could also make sense.

So we have a problem with having one magic system being applied to two different types of magic that really shouldn't work the same.

But even with the wizard's magic, it's stupid. One day you could be casting spell after spell and not run out, and the next day you could fumble each spell the first time you can cast them.

Oh, and horrible things can happen to you when you fumble.

All of this of course being in DCC for the last decade plus.  So again, it's neither innovative nor original.

Quote from: Persimmon on March 21, 2023, 10:13:47 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM

Quote from: Crusader X on March 21, 2023, 05:02:39 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:09:54 AM
There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good)

What is screwy about Shadowdark's magic system?

Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.

Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?

So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.

Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.

So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.

All of this of course being in DCC for the last decade plus.  So again, it's neither innovative nor original.

I agree the mishap system seems to fit arcane magic better, but the notion of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or that the gods are capricious, fickle, or uncaring is hardly uncommon. I don't think a Vancian system for clerics is better. Why would a god of healing deny their disciple the power to heal if a great saint of the faith were on death's door, just because they'd used up their daily allotment of spells or slots? If you're going to have divine magic and some semblance of game balance there has to be a limiting mechanic of some kind. Whatever that mechanic is you have to do some gymnastics to make it fit the fiction.

I don't dig the penance mechanic tho. I think some kind of mishap triggered by interference of demonic forces or unholy energies would make more sense. It's not that your god is mad at you, but rather you failed to have the calm mind and strength of faith to tap into your god's energy. You let doubt or anger or fear fluster you and gave evil forces an opening to do harm. Go full Manichean and lean into the cosmic battle between Law and Chaos.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 06:49:54 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:17:58 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."

Hmmm...

I don't think either statement is valid.

No designer is entitled to anyone's money.

Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?

Everybody, before they spend any money on a product has the right to determine that it meets all of their requirements before they spend that money.

Quote me where I was denying someone's rights or said a designer is entitled to money.

I did. And it's in this one too. The part where you said you don't think either statement is valid.

Quote from: Persimmon on March 21, 2023, 10:13:47 PM


All of this of course being in DCC for the last decade plus.  So again, it's neither innovative nor original.

Well, add one more reason that I'll never be playing DCC!

Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 12:19:55 AM

I agree the mishap system seems to fit arcane magic better, but the notion of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or that the gods are capricious, fickle, or uncaring is hardly uncommon. I don't think a Vancian system for clerics is better. Why would a god of healing deny their disciple the power to heal if a great saint of the faith were on death's door, just because they'd used up their daily allotment of spells or slots? If you're going to have divine magic and some semblance of game balance there has to be a limiting mechanic of some kind. Whatever that mechanic is you have to do some gymnastics to make it fit the fiction.

In the D&D cosmology, worshippers of a particular deity go to be permanent servants of that deity when they die. A worshipper dying isn't a bad thing to them. And they don't want to give everything easily. They want as many completely devout followers as possible, not just ones that are happy to pray when injured just for the healing. So they drip feed the spells, give you enough to keep you hooked, but won't give you anything extra except in extreme circumstances.

Quote
I don't dig the penance mechanic tho. I think some kind of mishap triggered by interference of demonic forces or unholy energies would make more sense. It's not that your god is mad at you, but rather you failed to have the calm mind and strength of faith to tap into your god's energy. You let doubt or anger or fear fluster you and gave evil forces an opening to do harm. Go full Manichean and lean into the cosmic battle between Law and Chaos.

I don't think I'd like the mechanic itself anymore if explained like that, but yeah, the suspension of disbelief would be easier.

Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 12:19:55 AM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.

I agree the mishap system seems to fit arcane magic better, but the notion of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or that the gods are capricious, fickle, or uncaring is hardly uncommon.

Gods are dicks.

Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 03:18:18 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 06:49:54 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:17:58 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."

Hmmm...

I don't think either statement is valid.

No designer is entitled to anyone's money.

Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?

Everybody, before they spend any money on a product has the right to determine that it meets all of their requirements before they spend that money.

Quote me where I was denying someone's rights or said a designer is entitled to money.

I did. And it's in this one too. The part where you said you don't think either statement is valid.

That had nothing to do with a designer being entitled to money. It also had nothing to do with purchasing or not purchasing the product.

It had everything to do with the part of my quote that you left out. Which you of course know. That is why you left it out.

You are the other side of the same coin. You even shift arguments the same.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM

Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?

What I WAS clearly pointing out is how you and the woke are playing the ultimate version of Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man with your purity tests, placing the onus on people to prove a negative.

Having to prove one is not woke is just as retarded as having to improve inclusion.

Buy or don't buy the game. I don't care. I've already stated there is nothing that compels me to purchase it. And of all the constructive points that have been made, only Pundit's questions strike me as fair.

The fact she has a wife or might one day do something woke, is not.

And for those freedom fighters out there, when reasonable people see these ridiculous reaches, it only slows the cause. You sound just as fruity as the other side.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 22, 2023, 05:53:00 AM


That had nothing to do with a designer being entitled to money. It also had nothing to do with purchasing or not purchasing the product.

It had everything to do with the part of my quote that you left out. Which you of course know. That is why you left it out.

You are the other side of the same coin. You even shift arguments the same.

Even if it were true (it's not) that we're the same side of the coin, making sure that a game is inclusive enough IS completely valid. If you're woke and want to make sure that you only give money to games that are woke enough, you are completely in your right to do so, and to scrutinize prospective games to make sure they meet *your* requirements.

Quote from: Vile Traveller on March 22, 2023, 05:50:27 AM

Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 12:19:55 AM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.

I agree the mishap system seems to fit arcane magic better, but the notion of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or that the gods are capricious, fickle, or uncaring is hardly uncommon.

Gods are dicks.

You know, with the implied setting of the Lamentations of the Flame Princess rules, or with Ravenloft, I could see that mechanic actually fitting. I didn't get that vibe from Shadowdark.

Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 07:17:35 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 22, 2023, 05:53:00 AM


That had nothing to do with a designer being entitled to money. It also had nothing to do with purchasing or not purchasing the product.

It had everything to do with the part of my quote that you left out. Which you of course know. That is why you left it out.

You are the other side of the same coin. You even shift arguments the same.

Even if it were true (it's not) that we're the same side of the coin, making sure that a game is inclusive enough IS completely valid. If you're woke and want to make sure that you only give money to games that are woke enough, you are completely in your right to do so, and to scrutinize prospective games to make sure they meet *your* requirements.

Something can be both valid and stupid at the same time.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 22, 2023, 07:49:44 AM

Something can be both valid and stupid at the same time.

The recursion is killing me.  Be careful we don't go into an infinite loop.

Two sides don't have to be 1:1 equivalent for equivalencies to exist, even if one of them is demonstrably worse than the other. And this thread is definitely an example of how people obsessed with the muh culture war can become just like people on the other side in many ways. I mean, Jeeses Christ! This thing has gone on for like 24 pages, and most of it is nitpicky bullshit about how the author used "Ancestry" instead of race, and didn't push on the woke mob hard enough even though she doesn't seem to be openly woke (which likely means she isn't, cuz why the hell would she hide what, when that's the side with the mainstream cultural power?).

The only valid points made have been how inorganic the push for this game has been, which I noticed as well. The rest has been whining about how the game isn't OSR enough, or lacks innovation, like anything in current D&D or the entirety of the OSR hasn't already been done by some other system decades ago. Or desperately looking for signs that the author might be secretly woke, or not anti-woke enough. Which totally isn't similar at all to what the other side does, you guys! There's only ONE side obsessed with looking for signs of political purity or lack of it.

Actually, at least half of this topic has been people complaining about other comments.  Repeating the same complaints about those comments.  There's been a fair amount of word-twisting, selective quoting, and a lot of insinuations. Not to mention plain old-fashioned misunderstanding. That's why it has gone on this long.

I don't know why this would be surprising to anyone.  In any forum, on any topic, happy-go-lucky threads about RPG thing X seldom go on for very long, because when everyone agrees, there isn't much to talk about.  You can only do the, "Great post, totally agree!" thing so long.