Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 01:52:40 PM

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 12:06:03 PM
Because I've spent an awful lot of hours of my life looking at games over the last 30 years. Big games. Small games. Games even normies have heard of, games that even you probably haven't heard of. If there's one thing gamers love to do more the game it's talk about gaming and gaming products.

Yes, some people are like that.  If you say you are, I believe you.  I've seen it before often enough that it is not a surprise.  I used to be more like that than I am now.

Some of us are not like that.  I don't get all excited about a new game.  Or more specifically, a new set of game products.  The game products are just tools that help me run the (actual) "game" at the table, with a specific setting and a group of set players.

I think there is plenty of interesting ideas that can be mined from new games and game products. However, I think most RPG gamers are more like Steven Mitchell. For most of RPG history, at least 2/3rds of players have only looked at current edition D&D, and the top dozen games are over 90% of play. It's always been only a small fraction who are interested in new small-press systems.

Historically, I've enjoyed browsing through lots of games. However, I have to say that I've turned more to only looking at RPG stuff I can directly use, and more often turning to other non-gaming sources for inspiration rather than RPG books. I haven't gone all the way, but I've turned more in that direction.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 02:58:32 PM

I'm not saying you have to buy anything. I'm not going to be buying it, either. I have no issue with people looking at something and saying, "This isn't for me", or "I have no use for this product". I do think the over-emphasis on "innovation" is... iffy... But if that's your criteria, well, I can't really say anything too critical about it.

I agree with you on innovation. Notice however that the criticism on innovation is 2 parts: 

Other people (not the author) gushing that the product is innovative in ways that aren't really.  That's not her fault.  In fact, it's probably doing her a disservice in the long run, because it may be creating hype that the game can't possibly live up to, and even cause a backlash.  It absolutely is a valid criticism to call out "reviewers" on making claims that are ignorant.

As for the game itself, innovation is overrated.  It's how all the parts fit and work together that matters. The only way to know that is to try it.  And of course, the presentation is a big part, both in getting people to try it, and for them to understand how the parts work. 

I think it isn't for me because the focus seems to be off from what I usually enjoy.  That's "off" for me, not a criticism of the product.  However, I'm an outlier. The vast majority of game products are "off" for me in that way, because the mix of verisimilitude and fantastical that I prefer is seldom a focus.  In theory, a more grounded fantasy game in the D&D-like space that is a cross between BEMCI and 5E ought to appeal greatly.  I've said multiple times elsewhere that it is a good start on what I like.  However, in practice, the choices matter, not only on where it is more like BEMCI versus 5E, as well as the tone, default sub genres, what the mechanics emphasize, the meat of it, what character types are natural to produce, etc.  Moreover, having just been through a similar exercise from the inside in my own design, I've discovered that some things I thought I liked in theory I don't in practice, and vice versa.

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

Why? You have no control over whether it's woke or not. Nor do you have any control over whether it sells or not. It's on track to have a larger KS in both dollars and backers than the last two Exalted Funeral OSE kickstarters combined. By that measure it's already popular and it didn't need a "Certified as Non-Woke" sticker to achieve that. Heck, that might be a detriment to its popularity. So how is making sure it's not woke important at all? Either the game interests you or it doesn't.

"Woke" is just an excuse for people on both sides to be angry for no productive reason. The point by @Bruwulf about woke living in people's heads seems spot on to me.

Quote from: Festus on March 21, 2023, 04:21:06 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

Why? You have no control over whether it's woke or not. Nor do you have any control over whether it sells or not. It's on track to have a larger KS in both dollars and backers than the last two Exalted Funeral OSE kickstarters combined. By that measure it's already popular and it didn't need a "Certified as Non-Woke" sticker to achieve that. Heck, that might be a detriment to its popularity. So how is making sure it's not woke important at all? Either the game interests you or it doesn't.

"Woke" is just an excuse for people on both sides to be angry for no productive reason. The point by @Bruwulf about woke living in people's heads seems spot on to me.

Right, but Migo has control over where he spends his hard earned money, if he chooses to only support woke or non-woke products it's his choice and just as valid as any other measure.

It's not about "being angry" it's about supporting the products you want to support.

Given that the woke hate me as much as the KKK I won't support either.

You want to give money to some KKK member if he makes "A fun and innovative game" it's your choice, and you have no right to demand others follow your measure of what to buy or not buy.

Quote from: GamerforHire on March 21, 2023, 09:12:33 AM
...
I left rpg.net because there was so much intolerance of free speech and obsession with social justice issues in games, but this site is getting ridiculous with its over abundance of bitching about the same topic. The same people yelling about free speech and free thought in gaming are filling up the boards with whining. I counted one day last week and ONE-THIRD of the front page of this discussion board was threads expressly attacking various "woke" issues. Jesus.

These two things are not the same.

You can tell everyone on this site that they are full of it, and you will still be able to post tomorrow.

You can't do that on RPG.net. You can't do that on ENWorld. You can't do that on the RPGpub.

This site has a lot of anti-sjw/woke gaming discussion for a very simple reason:

It is literally the only RPG forum that you can speak against "The Narrative", and not get banned for it.

You got 9 posts dude. You want more pure RPG talk? Start Posting some engaging RPG topics.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 21, 2023, 01:26:15 PM
I get people defending this product because they may genuinely like it, but some people are protecting its honor like their daughter or mom wrote it.

Not to mention several very new accounts that seem to have joined just to shield M'lady.

This thread has been entertaining for those reasons alone. LOL!!

Absolutely fascinating...

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 03:20:34 PM
... Notice however that the criticism on innovation is 2 parts: 

Other people (not the author) gushing that the product is innovative in ways that aren't really.  That's not her fault.  In fact, it's probably doing her a disservice in the long run, because it may be creating hype that the game can't possibly live up to, and even cause a backlash.  It absolutely is a valid criticism to call out "reviewers" on making claims that are ignorant.

^THIS^

The polished media push for the SD KS has raised the issue of the value of so-called "reviewers" in the OSR sphere...

And criticizing the validity of those "reviews" is not an attack on the author, or the game.

Some seem rather confused on that issue.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 03:20:34 PM
As for the game itself, innovation is overrated.  It's how all the parts fit and work together that matters. The only way to know that is to try it.  And of course, the presentation is a big part, both in getting people to try it, and for them to understand how the parts work.  ...

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2023, 03:21:28 PM
...

The point is if Arcane Library actually hung out with real old school TSR people from lake geneva, and went to garycon a few times, but didn't necessarily ever really run into the areas where the OSR as a design school interacts (G+ in the old days, theRPGsite, MeWe, OSR facebook, the old OSR discord before it was taken over by the Maoists, the new OSR Based Discords, Twitter, and the Youtube OSR vlogosphere) it's not surprising that she doesn't understand our internal culture and how we operate, and thus interpreted my pointing out the connections between L&D and her game as an "attack", and felt she had to disavow and attack rather than engage and promote because the online design areas she has been a part of (5e, mainly) would have taught her that as a survival instinct, even though its the worst thing she could have done.
...

In addition, I think that the author didn't really know how to process the points Pundit was making for a few reasons:

1: This is probably the first time she has gotten anything resembling significant "pushback" in her RPG writing career.

From her POV; she has been hanging out with the old school crowd, and was caught out when people in the OSR started asking "Who the hell are you!?"

2: She probably thought that she was being rather innovative with her ideas.

Multiple discovery/simultaneous invention is a real thing. I think it never occurred to her that SD would fall into that!

For example; how SD does adv/disadv with Thievery in their Thief Class is very similar to a post I made almost two years ago how proficiencies would work in my alternate D&D skill system:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/mary-mary-quite-contrary-how-does-your-character-grow/msg1198503/#msg1198503

Pundit pointing out the connections between aspects of Shadowdarks system and L&D must have been very frustrating for her because he is able to cite many of those those "innovative" mechanics chapter and verse from his own Lion and Dragon rpg published some six years earlier!

(I guarantee that she has a copy of L&D by now at least in pdf form, has looked at it, and gone: "WTF!?"...)

Combine all that with the fact that Pundit doesn't give a fuck that she's a girl, is very direct in how he says things, and it's easy to see how the unexpected "pushback" could lead to frustration; with her interpreting it as a personal attack.

When it was really all about the ridiculously obvious promotional shill "reviews"...


The ShadowDark RPG hardly needs anyone to come to its defense. If I ever release an RPG, I can only dream that my games release generates a 23 page thread on any rpg forum full of people asking "WTF is this game!?"...

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:09:54 AM
There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good)

What is screwy about Shadowdark's magic system?

Shadowdark first caught my attention when a post appeared about it back in December of 2021 on They Might Be Gazebos.  I went to the website and downloaded the pdf for the beta.  I read through the pdf but it didn't grab me.  I stored it on my nas with my ever-growing collection of ttrpg pdfs.  When the Quickstart appeared, I downloaded it and took a look.  My response was the same.  It just was not compelling for me in those 2 different read-throughs. 

A number of the posts touting the rosetta stone of RPGs, real-time torches, real 6th edition of D&D, etc are intriguing.  I didn't find it to be much of a rosetta stone level of RPG with seamless cross-compatibility.  It struck me as more of a BX derivative.  I find Castles & Crusades, Blood & Treasure (1e & 2e), and Fantastic Heroes & Witchery to be better for cross-compatibility.  Even Sarah Newton's Monsters & Magic felt like it was more cross-compatible than Shadowdark.  Now unless I am misremembering (which is possible since it is Tuesday), I believe that Mothership, Black Hack, and even Fighting Fantasy had realtime relations for game pacing.  Even West Marches Campaigns had timekeeping synced to real-time.

Usually, I jump at a BX/BECMI/RC derived RPGs but Shadowdark has not compelled me to join the Kickstarter.  We shall see later on.  There are other RPG products calling my money (as I slide the 9th Printing of Castles & Crusades Player's Handbook on the shelf with the previous 8 printings).

Quote from: Crusader X on March 21, 2023, 05:02:39 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:09:54 AM
There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good)

What is screwy about Shadowdark's magic system?

Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.

Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?

So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.

Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.

So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.

Now if we go to the wizard, where suspension of disbelief is possible. Failing a skill check is reasonable for arcane magic. And having that spell burned until you can clear it out when you fail could also make sense.

So we have a problem with having one magic system being applied to two different types of magic that really shouldn't work the same.

But even with the wizard's magic, it's stupid. One day you could be casting spell after spell and not run out, and the next day you could fumble each spell the first time you can cast them.

Oh, and horrible things can happen to you when you fumble.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 21, 2023, 04:36:47 PM

Right, but Migo has control over where he spends his hard earned money, if he chooses to only support woke or non-woke products it's his choice and just as valid as any other measure.

100% agree with that. It's the apparent link Migo was implying between the game's potential popularity and the need to be concerned about its wokeness that I was questioning. It's totally valid to not like something and one isn't obligated to even have a reason. It's subjective and that's cool.

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."

Hmmm...

I don't think either statement is valid.

No designer is entitled to anyone's money.

Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?

What I WAS clearly pointing out is how you and the woke are playing the ultimate version of Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man with your purity tests, placing the onus on people to prove a negative.

Having to prove one is not woke is just as retarded as having to improve inclusion.

Buy or don't buy the game. I don't care. I've already stated there is nothing that compels me to purchase it. And of all the constructive points that have been made, only Pundit's questions strike me as fair.

The fact she has a wife or might one day do something woke, is not.

And for those freedom fighters out there, when reasonable people see these ridiculous reaches, it only slows the cause. You sound just as fruity as the other side.

Quote from: Festus on March 21, 2023, 05:12:52 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 21, 2023, 04:36:47 PM

Right, but Migo has control over where he spends his hard earned money, if he chooses to only support woke or non-woke products it's his choice and just as valid as any other measure.

100% agree with that. It's the apparent link Migo was implying between the game's potential popularity and the need to be concerned about its wokeness that I was questioning. It's totally valid to not like something and one isn't obligated to even have a reason. It's subjective and that's cool.

I'm not saying that's why it should be questioned. I'm saying that's why it is being questioned, and other games aren't. Nobody is going to question or scrutinize a game they haven't even heard of, and if they have heard of it, don't care about to begin with.

Shadowdark is sufficiently noteworthy that people who do scrutinize games they are interested in will in fact do so. I would also scrutinize a game nobody has heard of or is talking about if it caught my interest for some other reason. But I wouldn't be posting about it on a 23 page thread here because it wouldn't have the interest to garner even a 1 page thread.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."

Hmmm...

I don't think either statement is valid.

No designer is entitled to anyone's money.

Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?

Everybody, before they spend any money on a product has the right to determine that it meets all of their requirements before they spend that money.

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:16:38 PM

Quote from: Festus on March 21, 2023, 05:12:52 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 21, 2023, 04:36:47 PM

Right, but Migo has control over where he spends his hard earned money, if he chooses to only support woke or non-woke products it's his choice and just as valid as any other measure.

100% agree with that. It's the apparent link Migo was implying between the game's potential popularity and the need to be concerned about its wokeness that I was questioning. It's totally valid to not like something and one isn't obligated to even have a reason. It's subjective and that's cool.

I'm not saying that's why it should be questioned. I'm saying that's why it is being questioned, and other games aren't. Nobody is going to question or scrutinize a game they haven't even heard of, and if they have heard of it, don't care about to begin with.

Shadowdark is sufficiently noteworthy that people who do scrutinize games they are interested in will in fact do so. I would also scrutinize a game nobody has heard of or is talking about if it caught my interest for some other reason. But I wouldn't be posting about it on a 23 page thread here because it wouldn't have the interest to garner even a 1 page thread.

That's fair. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.

Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?

So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.

Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.

So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.

Well, I have problems with those sorts of mechanics in general, but as far as specifically applying it to a cleric goes, that's always sort of been an inherent issue with divine casters in D&D if you think about it too hard. Why is Moradin going to let his 13th level servant who has faithfully served him for years die because he arbitrarily rolled really poorly on his heal spells, or hit his arbitrary spell limit for the day?

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 05:40:55 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.

Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?

So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.

Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.

So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.

Well, I have problems with those sorts of mechanics in general, but as far as specifically applying it to a cleric goes, that's always sort of been an inherent issue with divine casters in D&D if you think about it too hard. Why is Moradin going to let his 13th level servant who has faithfully served him for years die because he arbitrarily rolled really poorly on his heal spells, or hit his arbitrary spell limit for the day?

At leas with Vancian casting it makes sense that you pray at a certain time, and get granted spells that you get to then use. If you didn't pray ahead of time, too bad. Of course there's the annoyance of not having the right spell prepared, but there is that internal consistency. It's easier to suspend disbelief there.

But obviously the much better solution is to have distinctly different magic systems, like how Spears of the Dawn handles Nganga, Griot and Marabout magic. Each system has its own flavour and works differently, rather than one system of magic with two ostensibly different implementations that more or less work the same way. If you're going to do that you should do white magic and black magic, and not have an arcane and divine split.