Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 21, 2023, 09:52:30 AM
Quibbling over the validity of using torches underground in a make believe fantasy game about elves glowing darts of force from their hands at flying  semi-truck sized reptiles guarding treasure the size of a gas station while a dwarf wields an axe the size of a small kitchen table is hilarious.

Wasn't Quibbling.  I know its just an elf game and realism has nothing to do with the game.  I was just saying

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 21, 2023, 09:52:30 AMThere is a need for escapism and hand waving of certain elements when playing our social hobby game of Fairy Tales.  Shadowdark is not claiming realism, the torch timer is for establishing tension, time management, and a sense of dread. All which is lacking in 5e and prevelant in OSR type adventures.   Veins of the Earth is another book that does the "light requirement"  well and paris very well to Shadowdark.

I hand wave all the time when I GM/DM.   It my last session of 5e I had a room that was set up where if the characters failed the save they felt a sense of dread.  No lasting effect, just dread.  Not to mention light would only travel 5 feet into the room and then stop.

I agree.  its not a documentary about fantasy times, it's a role playing game.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 21, 2023, 09:52:30 AM
Quibbling over the validity of using torches underground in a make believe fantasy game about elves glowing darts of force from their hands at flying  semi-truck sized reptiles guarding treasure the size of a gas station while a dwarf wields an axe the size of a small kitchen table is hilarious.

There is a need for escapism and hand waving of certain elements when playing our social hobby game of Fairy Tales.  Shadowdark is not claiming realism, the torch timer is for establishing tension, time management, and a sense of dread. All which is lacking in 5e and prevelant in OSR type adventures.   Veins of the Earth is another book that does the "light requirement"  well and paris very well to Shadowdark.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing the realism or lack thereof, I'm criticizing the whole idea of the timer mechanic.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 21, 2023, 09:52:30 AMAll which is lacking in 5e and prevelant in OSR type adventures.

Maybe at your table.

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

There are, at last count, exactly 23,421 OSR games, and 12,319,545 RPGs. I counted.

What percentage of them are "truly innovative"? And what percentage of that percentage is getting torn apart to ferret out any "suspected wokeism"?

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AMWhen it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

If you have to "make sure" it isn't actually woke, it isn't woke enough to matter.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 10:29:46 AM
What percentage of them are "truly innovative"? And what percentage of that percentage is getting torn apart to ferret out any "suspected wokeism"?

Don't think the hyperbole is limited to one side in this topic. No one is getting "torn apart". 

Besides, obviously woke products from the usual suspects get a different kind of attention.  This is getting a critical look because it's not obviously woke and not obviously a product of an agenda.  That is, it's cleared the first few hurdles, where now people want to know if it is good and does it interest them.  If some of that attention is a mix of hope and skepticism, well the current environment causes some hesitation. 

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."

Hmmm...

I don't think either statement is valid.

No designer is entitled to anyone's money.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 10:29:46 AM
What percentage of them are "truly innovative"? And what percentage of that percentage is getting torn apart to ferret out any "suspected wokeism"?

If you have to "make sure" it isn't actually woke, it isn't woke enough to matter.

Other games aren't getting inspected because they don't even merit discussion.

Shadowdark has a very successful kickstarter. A lot of people have already committed financially to trying it out as a system. So it has potential as a system you might choose simply because there are people playing it, and not because it's a system you would want to pitch to your friends. That's where the point about innovation comes in. If it didn't have a successful kickstarter, it would be passed over for the lack of innovation.

So the next question is if it's worth putting up with the crap elements (stupid spell system, and while I glossed over it on the first read, the timer mechanic is also stupid). If it truly isn't woke, and it means you can play some decent games that you otherwise wouldn't get to, fine. But if Dionne turns out to be woke after all (or bends the knee), then it's about as useless as D&D 5e.

I finally got looking through the pdf and the order for attributes are modern, which sucks. I want - SIWDCCH.

Backgrounds work if the DM is lazy and doesn't work with the player making a character. Not enough variety.
The Gods are boring.
The elven names don't seem elvish.
I'm not sure what I think of spell mishap tables.

Other than that, as of right now, nothing even smacks me as new and innovative. It's really generic feeling. I am getting no - this is cool! - buzz from my reading.

Torches - if you want to be realistic, make them candles. Lantern candles.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 10:53:13 AM
Don't think the hyperbole is limited to one side in this topic. No one is getting "torn apart". 

I would say the first half of that statement is true. Not the second.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 10:53:13 AMBesides, obviously woke products from the usual suspects get a different kind of attention.  This is getting a critical look because it's not obviously woke and not obviously a product of an agenda.  That is, it's cleared the first few hurdles, where now people want to know if it is good and does it interest them.  If some of that attention is a mix of hope and skepticism, well the current environment causes some hesitation.

That's about halfway to being exactly what I'm complaining about, but not really. To connect it back to the first bit: Most games, even most new games, do not get people going over the art and trying to read the tea leaves lack of chainmail bikinis and badly drawn faces to determine if the product comes in under some sort of "wokeness threshold".

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:09:57 AMShadowdark has a very successful kickstarter. A lot of people have already committed financially to trying it out as a system. So it has potential as a system you might choose simply because there are people playing it, and not because it's a system you would want to pitch to your friends. That's where the point about innovation comes in. If it didn't have a successful kickstarter, it would be passed over for the lack of innovation.

No, it doesn't. It may. It doesn't right now.

That said, I really don't care about the innovation question. Never have.

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:09:57 AMSo the next question is if it's worth putting up with the crap elements (stupid spell system, and while I glossed over it on the first read, the timer mechanic is also stupid). If it truly isn't woke, and it means you can play some decent games that you otherwise wouldn't get to, fine. But if Dionne turns out to be woke after all (or bends the knee), then it's about as useless as D&D 5e.

You're conflating "wokeness" with the system mechanics. A spell mishap table or a stupid torch timer are not woke or non-woke or anti-woke or anything of the sort.

If you don't like the game on a mechanical level... Then don't play the game. Whether or not the game is woke or not and whether or not you want to "put up with the crap elements" should not be questions that have anything to do with each other. If you don't like the game, don't play the game, on it's own merits. If the game is "crap" to you, does it matter if it isn't woke?

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 11:52:19 AM

That's about halfway to being exactly what I'm complaining about, but not really. To connect it back to the first bit: Most games, even most new games, do not get people going over the art and trying to read the tea leaves lack of chainmail bikinis and badly drawn faces to determine if the product comes in under some sort of "wokeness threshold".

Most games aren't noteworthy to begin with, so they don't get looked at at all.

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 12:01:05 PM
Most games aren't noteworthy to begin with, so they don't get looked at at all.

Really? What hobby are you a part of?

Because I've spent an awful lot of hours of my life looking at games over the last 30 years. Big games. Small games. Games even normies have heard of, games that even you probably haven't heard of. If there's one thing gamers love to do more the game it's talk about gaming and gaming products.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 12:06:03 PM

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 12:01:05 PM
Most games aren't noteworthy to begin with, so they don't get looked at at all.

Really? What hobby are you a part of?

Because I've spent an awful lot of hours of my life looking at games over the last 30 years. Big games. Small games. Games even normies have heard of, games that even you probably haven't heard of. If there's one thing gamers love to do more the game it's talk about gaming and gaming products.

Just because you like looking at obscure games (and I do too), doesn't suddenly make those obscure games noteworthy. Shadowdark is noteworthy by any objective measure on account of the kickstarter success. That doesn't mean it's good, just noteworthy. A game that people are not only talking about, but spending money on, to such a degree merits notice. And then you have people who wouldn't otherwise look at the game paying attention to it. And they'll pay attention in their own ways.

I get people defending this product because they may genuinely like it, but some people are protecting its honor like their daughter or mom wrote it.

Not to mention several very new accounts that seem to have joined just to shield M'lady.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 12:06:03 PM

Really? What hobby are you a part of?

Because I've spent an awful lot of hours of my life looking at games over the last 30 years. Big games. Small games. Games even normies have heard of, games that even you probably haven't heard of. If there's one thing gamers love to do more the game it's talk about gaming and gaming products.

Yes, some people are like that.  If you say you are, I believe you.  I've seen it before often enough that it is not a surprise.  I used to be more like that than I am now.

Some of us are not like that.  I don't get all excited about a new game.  Or more specifically, a new set of game products.  The game products are just tools that help me run the (actual) "game" at the table, with a specific setting and a group of set players.  There absolutely are a ton of games.  One of the first things I do is filter out to the ones that are likely to be tools that will help me accomplish my goals.  It's possible that my filter has a flaw in it (even limited to my goals), which is why I'll sometimes read reviews and blogs and participate in a forum like this one. 

For example, I will probably not buy Shadowdark any time soon.  I might buy some of the adventures written for it, especially given the buzz on them.  So I'm quasi-interested in the conversation enough to have read every post in this thread.  But not interested enough (yet) to even download the free PDF of the game and read it.  I probably will be at some point, but you never know.  I downloaded Talislanta 2E free PDF several weeks ago, and haven't read 20 pages in it yet.   

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 01:52:40 PM

Yes, some people are like that.  If you say you are, I believe you.  I've seen it before often enough that it is not a surprise.  I used to be more like that than I am now.

Some of us are not like that.  I don't get all excited about a new game.  Or more specifically, a new set of game products.  The game products are just tools that help me run the (actual) "game" at the table, with a specific setting and a group of set players.  There absolutely are a ton of games.  One of the first things I do is filter out to the ones that are likely to be tools that will help me accomplish my goals.  It's possible that my filter has a flaw in it (even limited to my goals), which is why I'll sometimes read reviews and blogs and participate in a forum like this one. 

For example, I will probably not buy Shadowdark any time soon.  I might buy some of the adventures written for it, especially given the buzz on them.  So I'm quasi-interested in the conversation enough to have read every post in this thread.  But not interested enough (yet) to even download the free PDF of the game and read it.  I probably will be at some point, but you never know.  I downloaded Talislanta 2E free PDF several weeks ago, and haven't read 20 pages in it yet.

I'm not saying you have to buy anything. I'm not going to be buying it, either. I have no issue with people looking at something and saying, "This isn't for me", or "I have no use for this product". I do think the over-emphasis on "innovation" is... iffy... But if that's your criteria, well, I can't really say anything too critical about it.