Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2023, 03:23:35 PM

Well, if the question was "what does shadowdark give me that I can't already do in Lion & Dragon?" the answer is apparently "real time torches. that's it."

Well I have Lion and Dragon so I will look it over again.  But thank you for the information.

Quote from: rgalex on March 20, 2023, 03:27:02 PMSo what does it take to get you to buy a game these days?

I have to know I will get use out of the game play or run it

Quote from: rgalex on March 20, 2023, 03:27:02 PMAssuming you have even a small to moderate sized game library

My Library is:

D&D 5e
Savage Worlds
Gangbusters 3rd edition
Gangbusters B/X
OSE PDF (I generally do not use pdfs)

More likely than not, if I run Gangbusters I will use the information out of the B/X version (which I think is better than the original) and sell the GB 3rd edition books and three modules.  Ran it once but the rules aren't great so I probably wont do it again.

Quote from: rgalex on March 20, 2023, 03:27:02 PMwhat can a new game possibly offer you that you can't already do with the ones you currently own?

Well it depends on the game.  For Fantasy I would like a game that gives me the fantasy experience without the overcomplication in 5e and limitations for the DM (Which right now is me).  I want something easier to run.

I have Savage Worlds which allows me to run a lot of different settings, but I am a big believer of "System Maters" and settings with a system created specifically for it is superior to using a generic system.  Generic system works but a system custom made for that setting is better.

Quote from: rgalex on March 20, 2023, 03:27:02 PMI'm not trying to call you out for being wrong or anything.  I'm genuinely curious about the sentiment here as it's a bit alien to me.

What part of it is alien?

Quote from: Persimmon on March 20, 2023, 04:18:52 PM
After several years of bouncing between systems, this has become my mantra as well.  We've played a bunch of different systems and more or less identified the ones that work for us.  So much so that I've got some KS stuff coming that I will likely just sell brand new as we've decided to move on from that system.  Plus, the stuff is 7 months late and counting.  I also skimmed the Shadowdark preview and it was an easy pass for me.

If I could find a system that did fantasy better than D&D 5e I would probably switch just because it would make my life better.  Other than that I have all I need and I don't need to spend money for a game to just sit on a shelf.  The days of impulse buys are over for me.

Quote from: SHARK on March 20, 2023, 08:08:00 PM
Greetings!

I don't believe there is anything mysterious or "murky" about how Kelsey has become so successful with Shadowdark. Kelsey is talented, nice, non-political, and good at making friends.

Many of the OSR designers and writers, entirely fail at one or more of those key traits.

Shadowdark seems like an excellent game, and is anything but "mediocre" by any objective analysis. Kelsey has taken the best 5E elements, and many strong elements from 6 or 12 different OSR games, and organized it all into a simple, and elegant system. Then, she has presented the book with excellent layout, spacing, and design, and with outstanding artwork. Her Shadowdark book clearly shows a great love for 5E and the OSR especially.

I'm not surprised she is wildly successful. She will make millions of dollars, and be fabulously *rich*. That possibility, even as I write it with intentional hyperbole--undoubtedly makes some people grind their teeth in seething envy and enflamed jealousy. Again, though, cycle back to the key traits of her being talented, nice, non-political, and good at making friends. Lots of fucktards in the OSR and gaming in general absolutely fail at one or more of these key traits.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

She is a professional RPG author and publisher. She took a lot of ideas and influences and produced a tightly written, clearly laid out, nicely illustrated, well-marketed game. In other words, she is good at her job of being a professional RPG author and publisher. Lots of people have good ideas. Honestly, good ideas are the easy part. People who have the professional skills and put in the hundreds of hours of work to produce a game like Shadowdark (and of course there are others) are far less common.

Lots of people have cool ideas for novels too. But how many produce a completed manuscript?

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 20, 2023, 11:37:51 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on March 20, 2023, 04:18:52 PM
After several years of bouncing between systems, this has become my mantra as well.  We've played a bunch of different systems and more or less identified the ones that work for us.  So much so that I've got some KS stuff coming that I will likely just sell brand new as we've decided to move on from that system.  Plus, the stuff is 7 months late and counting.  I also skimmed the Shadowdark preview and it was an easy pass for me.

If I could find a system that did fantasy better than D&D 5e I would probably switch just because it would make my life better.  Other than that I have all I need and I don't need to spend money for a game to just sit on a shelf.  The days of impulse buys are over for me.

So in the last two years or so we've played or dabbled in Castles & Crusades, DCC, OSE, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Zweihander, White Box FMAG, Basic Fantasy, The One Ring 2nd Edition, and Against the Darkmaster.  We even flirted with going back to MERP, as I've got pretty much the full run of that game and I will never sell it.

Out of all these, the three that have gotten the most play are OSE, Castles & Crusades, and Swords & Wizardry.  OSE is still probably the easiest and quickest to run, followed by S&W.  I personally like C&C a lot, but my players aren't as crazy about it and the little differences between it and the D&D clones make it slower for me to run.  And the only game I've gotten others to DM is OSE.  I've got a KS adventure for OSE coming soon and there will be a new edition of Swords & Wizardry released in a few months.  So the current plan is to finish our current C&C mini campaign; play a bit of OSE until the Swords & Wizardry stuff arrives, then switch to that for the foreseeable future.  Not sexy, but with our fairly limited gaming time, none of us want to bother with learning new systems or screwing around with so-called "modern mechanics" when we already know how shit works in our old school games.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 20, 2023, 08:18:06 PM
1. If that's important to you, you can cross Ancestry out and use race. nothing is stopping you from changing that.

Not really. Here the thing comes up of "what does Shadowdark do that a system I already own doesn't?" And the answer to that is provide an alternative system that may be very popular and easy to find other players and groups for, that is potentially not infested with woke ideology. If the canary suggests it may after all be infested with woke ideology, and we're just not seeing it yet (Five Torches Deep for instance didn't seem that bad initially), then Shadowdark offers nothing of real value.

Quote
2. This is one photo. I've uploaded 2 others that clearly show the female form and not the warped view of whatever insanity you are espousing.

The dead giveaway is the face. The one other female is wearing a helmet with a mask and you don't see it. The one you atached is wearing a helmet with a nose guard, so you also can't see if there's the giveaway nose. It can be rationalised away, and it might be nothing. Maybe the artist for Shadowdark isn't good at drawing attractive faces. Who knows. But it's still a red flag.

Quote
3. Point is moot as the woman with curves in her chain mail is clearly not unattractive.

You are trying to assosciate proto-SJW tropes when none is present.

She's clearly not attractive either. The only thing you've got is she's clearly a woman, because it's hard to show that women are represented if they're wearing realistic armor.

There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good), to suggest you should hold off on spending your money on it, until a few more products are out and you can see which way it actually goes.

You know how some people make jokes about Trump "living rent-free in Liberal's heads"? Because everything they see as bad somehow boils down to Trump for them?

I sorta feel like "woke" is living rent-free in some people's heads, too.

I do get it; there are elements that I certainly don't prefer (And to be honest, the whole "real-time torch" thing is one of the most braindead things I've ever heard), and I don't think I'm the target market for this game. And yeah, I think the marketing blitz behind this game is at best off-putting and at worse deceptive. Criticism of the marketing is absolutely valid, I feel. And, certainly, I do detest woke ideology...

But let it succeed or fail on it's own merits. We've reached the point where people are pre-condemning it because of what it might become at some point in the future, or what the author might secretly believe, and that's just obnoxious.

If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

Quote from: Festus on March 20, 2023, 11:46:17 PM

Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

She is a professional RPG author and publisher. She took a lot of ideas and influences and produced a tightly written, clearly laid out, nicely illustrated, well-marketed game. In other words, she is good at her job of being a professional RPG author and publisher. Lots of people have good ideas. Honestly, good ideas are the easy part. People who have the professional skills and put in the hundreds of hours of work to produce a game like Shadowdark (and of course there are others) are far less common.

Lots of people have cool ideas for novels too. But how many produce a completed manuscript?

I agree.  Personally I hope she is successful.  I have no problem with her or her product.  For me its just something I dont need.  I have no problem with her being successful.

Quote from: Persimmon on March 21, 2023, 12:01:32 AM
OSE is still probably the easiest and quickest to run, followed by S&W.  I personally like C&C a lot, but my players aren't as crazy about it and the little differences between it and the D&D clones make it slower for me to run.  And the only game I've gotten others to DM is OSE.  I've got a KS adventure for OSE coming soon and there will be a new edition of Swords & Wizardry released in a few months.  So the current plan is to finish our current C&C mini campaign; play a bit of OSE until the Swords & Wizardry stuff arrives, then switch to that for the foreseeable future.  Not sexy, but with our fairly limited gaming time, none of us want to bother with learning new systems or screwing around with so-called "modern mechanics" when we already know how shit works in our old school games.

Thank you for the information.  Do you know how it plays/runs as compared to 5e?

Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.

When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.

"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."

Hmmm...

I don't think either statement is valid.

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 08:30:55 AM
I do get it; there are elements that I certainly don't prefer (And to be honest, the whole "real-time torch" thing is one of the most braindead things I've ever heard), and I don't think I'm the target market for this game. And yeah, I think the marketing blitz behind this game is at best off-putting and at worse deceptive. Criticism of the marketing is absolutely valid, I feel. And, certainly, I do detest woke ideology...

Yep I agree.  There are YouTube videos out there that show how unrealistic torches are and how using them in underground dungeons would be a nightmary situation (and would probably kill the people using them).

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 08:30:55 AMBut let it succeed or fail on it's own merits. We've reached the point where people are pre-condemning it because of what it might become at some point in the future, or what the author might secretly believe, and that's just obnoxious.

I agree.  I have seen kickstarters that have done really well and then poof, you don't really hear much about them anymore.   

Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 08:30:55 AM
You know how some people make jokes about Trump "living rent-free in Liberal's heads"? Because everything they see as bad somehow boils down to Trump for them?

I sorta feel like "woke" is living rent-free in some people's heads, too.
...
But let it succeed or fail on its own merits. We've reached the point where people are pre-condemning it because of what it might become at some point in the future, or what the author might secretly believe, and that's just obnoxious.

Amen. I think this thread demonstrates how there is a faction of "anti-woke" crusaders on this site who are just as bad as any woke crusaders on the Left, by seeing "woke" every time there is a woman or minority author, or a picture or name that MIGHT be a woman or minority, or God forbid, friends with a woman or minority. There is a line between being aware of (and opposed to) the forced virtue-signaling that "woke" has become, on the one hand, and just being a plain bigot on the other.

I left rpg.net because there was so much intolerance of free speech and obsession with social justice issues in games, but this site is getting ridiculous with its over abundance of bitching about the same topic. The same people yelling about free speech and free thought in gaming are filling up the boards with whining. I counted one day last week and ONE-THIRD of the front page of this discussion board was threads expressly attacking various "woke" issues. Jesus.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM

"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."

Hmmm...

I don't think either statement is valid.

I agree.  I don't think the game has to be inclusive (whatever that means), I think the GM/DM and the players have to be inclusive- and allow anyone who wants to play, play.   Of course there are exceptions for bad behavior, bad hygiene, etc

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 21, 2023, 09:10:51 AM

Yep I agree.  There are YouTube videos out there that show how unrealistic torches are and how using them in underground dungeons would be a nightmary situation (and would probably kill the people using them).

Quibbling over the validity of using torches underground in a make believe fantasy game about elves glowing darts of force from their hands at flying  semi-truck sized reptiles guarding treasure the size of a gas station while a dwarf wields an axe the size of a small kitchen table is hilarious.

There is a need for escapism and hand waving of certain elements when playing our social hobby game of Fairy Tales.  Shadowdark is not claiming realism, the torch timer is for establishing tension, time management, and a sense of dread. All which is lacking in 5e and prevelant in OSR type adventures.   Veins of the Earth is another book that does the "light requirement"  well and paris very well to Shadowdark.