Greetings!

Here is a pretty solid preview of Shadowdark, by YouTuber Mr. Tarrasque.

Good overview of Shadowdark RPG.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material.  The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material.  The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.

Without me doing the converting? That's some high magic right there!

I can run whatever in OSE if I so wish, I just need to invest the time in converting it for the system.

From their twitter account.

https://twitter.com/arcanelibrary/status/1636187473499029508

Folks are asking me if Shadowdark RPG was based on 5E, and it actually was not! It was based on B/X.

It's harder to convert it to 5E compatibility for that reason, but very easy to convert it to B/X compatibility for that reason.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material.  The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.

Is that true?  The little bit I've seen of it makes me think that that 5e encounters would shred Shadowdark PCs without monster conversion.  Also, by which standard are mechanics streamlined?  It's way more complex than B/X, with each spellcast having a second edition psionics power check to see if you cast it or not, with the old "on a 20 you might have a bad effect" becoming "roll a huge number of awful events if you roll a 1, including permanent loss of the spell and in some cases death".  While multipage resolution tables might be around for the AD&D-esque portions of OSR, they aren't a mainstay for standard combat events.  The pieces that are streamlined compared to 5e are mostly the pieces 5e stole from 3rd and 4th, what with machine-like resolution of events, tagged effects, and keywords.

It looks OSR with a focus on generating excitement with every decision, because even something as mundane as casting a first level spell has a very small chance of wrecking you in at least some way, forever.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addition to OSR related material.  The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.

No, I don't think it allows that. At least not any more than just about any other D20 roll over ascending armor class game does.

Based on the 136 page free quickstart I've read and the reviews I've seen, Shadowdark is a synthesis of ideas from B/X to 5e to ICRPG to FTD, etc. with a couple innovations added in. The value, IMO, is in the quality and consistency of that synthesis and the clarity of the presentation. It's an extremely well-crafted game. The author was a newspaper journalist before becoming a full time RPG creator and it shows. She's writes tighter, cleaner prose than 90+% of game authors out there. Some may find the concise style to be a bit sterile. It's definitely not Lovecraftian or Howardesque. There is certainly a contrast between the black and white line art which is very flavorful and hearkens back to an earlier era and the modern layout and language.

For folks new to the OSR I think it is a game that is similar enough to 5e to be super approachable. And based on the short amount of time I've spent on the author's discord, folks coming from 5e will find her community more welcoming than other OSR oriented groups.

If you're already heavily invested in a game like OSE, the quickstart alone probably doesn't have enough to justify backing it. I've heard in reviews that the full game has a lot of very good random tables. I've also heard that the adventures in the three zines that you can get in the KS are top-notch. Based on the author's 5e adventures (which are very good) I find that believable. But as with any KS, it's a leap of faith. We won't really know until we know.

I'm probably going to back it. I have liked the author's 5e work. I'm a fan of Hankerin' over at Runehammer and he raves about Shadowdark. In fact, that's where I first heard of the author. Hankerin' interviewed her on his Youtube channel 4-ish years ago when her first 5e adventure was released.

Quote from: Venka on March 16, 2023, 06:25:17 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material.  The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.

Is that true?  The little bit I've seen of it makes me think that that 5e encounters would shred Shadowdark PCs without monster conversion.  Also, by which standard are mechanics streamlined?  It's way more complex than B/X, with each spellcast having a second edition psionics power check to see if you cast it or not, with the old "on a 20 you might have a bad effect" becoming "roll a huge number of awful events if you roll a 1, including permanent loss of the spell and in some cases death".  While multipage resolution tables might be around for the AD&D-esque portions of OSR, they aren't a mainstay for standard combat events.  The pieces that are streamlined compared to 5e are mostly the pieces 5e stole from 3rd and 4th, what with machine-like resolution of events, tagged effects, and keywords.

It looks OSR with a focus on generating excitement with every decision, because even something as mundane as casting a first level spell has a very small chance of wrecking you in at least some way, forever.

Yes, the spellcasting is my biggest problem with Shadowdark. Otherwise I don't find anything really objectionable (ancestry instead of race as a term is mildly irritating but by itself that can slide).

Conceptually the mechanics just don't work. It's absurd that based on a bad roll you would fall out of favour with your deity, and that you would only be blocked from casting that particular spell.

If you lose your divine spellcasting, it should be because of a conscious and deliberate action taken by the character, and it should be all the spellcasting, not just one spell. The idea that there's a failure chance from divine magic also stretches suspension of disbelief.

The concept can work for arcane magic. I don't think it is a good mechanic, or a good alternative to Vancian spellcasting even - it just makes mages randomly suck way more than a 1st level mage in AD&D on one day, and randomly be amazing on another day. But at least the concept doesn't break suspension of disbelief in the context of how arcane magic is supposed to work in the fantasy world.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

This is exactly my take.  But I have no issue with those who choose to play it.  And if they make lots of money, good for them. I'm fine with what I already have.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material.  The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.

Fine; I don't care and I've never found the slightest need to "bridge the gap" between 5e and anything.  And streamlined mechanics are subjective in any case.  I know the mechanics of B/X and AD&D intimately.  So, for me, "modern mechanics" like ascending AC, challenge levels, and different saving throw categories are clunky, not streamlined.  So none of these are selling points for me.  It's all in one's perspective.  So again, good for those who want to play this, but I'm just not seeing the "revolutionary" nature of another set of mashed up house rules.

Right now that there is still some negative animus towards WotC over the OGL fiasco, and players are still looking for something to move to from 5e, having streamlined mechanics compared to 5e is definitely a bonus. People are already fed up with how 5e plays, especially at higher levels, so they're definitely ready to transition to something better, and Shadowdark comes at the right time for that.

More players having a better experience is certainly a good thing. More players playing a game that is playable means more games for all of us to join in on. More people moving to other systems means WotC and D&D have less influence on the hobby as a whole, and that is something that benefits the rest of us even if we keep playing the systems we like anyway.

Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 08:12:16 PM

Quote from: Venka on March 16, 2023, 06:25:17 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material.  The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.

Is that true?  The little bit I've seen of it makes me think that that 5e encounters would shred Shadowdark PCs without monster conversion.  Also, by which standard are mechanics streamlined?  It's way more complex than B/X, with each spellcast having a second edition psionics power check to see if you cast it or not, with the old "on a 20 you might have a bad effect" becoming "roll a huge number of awful events if you roll a 1, including permanent loss of the spell and in some cases death".  While multipage resolution tables might be around for the AD&D-esque portions of OSR, they aren't a mainstay for standard combat events.  The pieces that are streamlined compared to 5e are mostly the pieces 5e stole from 3rd and 4th, what with machine-like resolution of events, tagged effects, and keywords.

It looks OSR with a focus on generating excitement with every decision, because even something as mundane as casting a first level spell has a very small chance of wrecking you in at least some way, forever.

Yes, the spellcasting is my biggest problem with Shadowdark. Otherwise I don't find anything really objectionable (ancestry instead of race as a term is mildly irritating but by itself that can slide).

Conceptually the mechanics just don't work. It's absurd that based on a bad roll you would fall out of favour with your deity, and that you would only be blocked from casting that particular spell.

If you lose your divine spellcasting, it should be because of a conscious and deliberate action taken by the character, and it should be all the spellcasting, not just one spell. The idea that there's a failure chance from divine magic also stretches suspension of disbelief.

The concept can work for arcane magic. I don't think it is a good mechanic, or a good alternative to Vancian spellcasting even - it just makes mages randomly suck way more than a 1st level mage in AD&D on one day, and randomly be amazing on another day. But at least the concept doesn't break suspension of disbelief in the context of how arcane magic is supposed to work in the fantasy world.

Isn't she just taking these concepts pretty much from DCC and modifying them?  Divine magic can fail there too and one can incur escalating levels of deity disfavor.  But there are mechanics to reverse that fairly easily.  Their arcane failure and corruption rules can be tied to specific spells, but aren't always.

Personally, I don't mind the concept of spell checks, corruption, etc., but we've found it slows things down so we don't play that much DCC.  I actually prefer reading to running/playing DCC.

Quote from: Persimmon on March 16, 2023, 08:49:03 PM


Isn't she just taking these concepts pretty much from DCC and modifying them?  Divine magic can fail there too and one can incur escalating levels of deity disfavor.  But there are mechanics to reverse that fairly easily.  Their arcane failure and corruption rules can be tied to specific spells, but aren't always.

Personally, I don't mind the concept of spell checks, corruption, etc., but we've found it slows things down so we don't play that much DCC.  I actually prefer reading to running/playing DCC.

That's possible. I don't know DCC that well, but I don't imagine taking ideas from DCC is ever going to make a system better. Almost any other non-Vancian alternative system would have been a better alternative.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

I mean, you could argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Basic Fantasy RPG came out in February 2007. Hell, you could probably argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Hackmaster came out in 2001.

Quote from: Plotinus on March 16, 2023, 08:56:01 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

I mean, you could argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Basic Fantasy RPG came out in February 2007. Hell, you could probably argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Hackmaster came out in 2001.

HackMaster was a joke system, literally and figuratively.

Castles & Crusades breaks at higher levels if you try running AD&D modules with it.

OSRIC is an AD&D 1e clone, and there's a reason many people moved on to 2e, and also away from AD&D entirely.

Basic Fantasy has the stupidity of race as class. Sure there are people who like it, but it's still stupid and is right from the start a reason not to play it. The Thief was also shit, which is characteristic of OSR games still being released today.

Lamentations of the Flame Princess is the first system that got a reasonable amount of attention that was actually serious (to the extent that serious gonzo is possible), could actually scale to higher levels, was simpler than AD&D, and had an implementation of the Thief class that wasn't garbage. You could actually play it as is with humans only and stripping the demi-humans out.

Finding the right balance, so that it doesn't change too much to lose compatibility but still changes enough that it doesn't irritate you the same as when you left D&D looking for another system is tricky to achieve, and people are still looking for a system that is like that.

Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 09:06:02 PM

Quote from: Plotinus on March 16, 2023, 08:56:01 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

I mean, you could argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Basic Fantasy RPG came out in February 2007. Hell, you could probably argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Hackmaster came out in 2001.

HackMaster was a joke system, literally and figuratively.

Castles & Crusades breaks at higher levels if you try running AD&D modules with it.

OSRIC is an AD&D 1e clone, and there's a reason many people moved on to 2e, and also away from AD&D entirely.

Basic Fantasy has the stupidity of race as class. Sure there are people who like it, but it's still stupid and is right from the start a reason not to play it. The Thief was also shit, which is characteristic of OSR games still being released today.

Lamentations of the Flame Princess is the first system that got a reasonable amount of attention that was actually serious (to the extent that serious gonzo is possible), could actually scale to higher levels, was simpler than AD&D, and had an implementation of the Thief class that wasn't garbage. You could actually play it as is with humans only and stripping the demi-humans out.

Finding the right balance, so that it doesn't change too much to lose compatibility but still changes enough that it doesn't irritate you the same as when you left D&D looking for another system is tricky to achieve, and people are still looking for a system that is like that.

Basic fantasy doesnt have race as class