Quote from: Jaeger on March 15, 2023, 03:28:17 PM

OSE taps into the entire B/X OSR ecosystem. This is a big deal: Old modules, new modules etc,. It is not dependent on their dolemwood setting hitting big to tap into the larger OSR B/X player network.

Shadowdark is not as directly compatible to the existing B/X OSR ecosystem as OSE.

The success of the KS may lead to a steady player network to sell adventures, and grow the game. But that is something that will not be readily apparent for a few years.

What it may tap into is the ecosystem of 5e adventure and setting design.

If Dionne does a good job converting her existing 5e adventures to Shadowdark, and provides conversion guides for other publishers (or even for GMs to do themselves), then there can be a very sizeable ecosystem that builds up around it.

It's not like OSE being the well laid out system that taps into the existing ecosystem, since it isn't quite the same thing. But it is well positioned. And I would think you can run The Dark of Hot Springs Island without trouble using Shadowdark.

Quote from: migo on March 15, 2023, 04:56:31 PM

If Dionne does a good job converting her existing 5e adventures to Shadowdark, and provides conversion guides for other publishers (or even for GMs to do themselves), then there can be a very sizeable ecosystem that builds up around it.

She's already said she is not likely to convert her old adventures. Case of been there, done that and she feels more motivated to create new material for Shadowdark. She's already got a zine with three issues out as this system has been in beta for over a year, and there's something like 20+ Shadowdark products by third parties on Drivethru now. The Shadowdark ecosystem already exists and is growing.

Quote from: Festus on March 15, 2023, 06:19:32 PM
...
She's already said she is not likely to convert her old adventures. Case of been there, done that and she feels more motivated to create new material for Shadowdark. She's already got a zine with three issues out as this system has been in beta for over a year, and there's something like 20+ Shadowdark products by third parties on Drivethru now. The Shadowdark ecosystem already exists and is growing.

LOL; The game isn't even out yet!

Totally not coordinated at all... 


I'll give the Shadowdark devs credit where credit is due: They know how to get their hustle on!

Can't hate on that.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 15, 2023, 07:55:32 PM

Quote from: Festus on March 15, 2023, 06:19:32 PM
...
She's already said she is not likely to convert her old adventures. Case of been there, done that and she feels more motivated to create new material for Shadowdark. She's already got a zine with three issues out as this system has been in beta for over a year, and there's something like 20+ Shadowdark products by third parties on Drivethru now. The Shadowdark ecosystem already exists and is growing.

LOL; The game isn't even out yet!

Totally not coordinated at all... 


I'll give the Shadowdark devs credit where credit is due: They know how to get their hustle on!

Can't hate on that.

The quickstart rules have been out for quite a while and a lot of the stuff on DriveThruRPG was uploaded in late 2021/early 2022.

Quote from: LordBP on March 15, 2023, 08:37:16 PM
...

The quickstart rules have been out for quite a while and a lot of the stuff on DriveThruRPG was uploaded in late 2021/early 2022.

So people from the SD circle of friends and acquaintances then. Because the complete game isn't even out yet.

This certainly gives SD the illusion of some kind of 'broad' 3pp support.

Look, for all we know it may tap into something and take off like a rocket. But right now that is pure speculation.


All I'm saying is this: One successful KS does not a OSE-B/X rivaling player network make.

Only time will tell how it really takes.

Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu she came up in.

Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.

Sure, no disagreement. I know you regard the more innovative 2nd & 3rd wave OSR material as superior to the retro-clone and near-clone stuff. Shadowdark seems to be in the near-clone area, a bit more variance/innovation in mechanics than a typical near-clone, but still based off B/X rules and intended for traditional dungeon delving fantasy in a slightly darker than normal milieu.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM

Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu she came up in.

Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.

What is that? The only thing I've heard waves applied to is feminism.

What distinguishes 1st wave, 2nd wave and 3rd wave OSR?

Quote from: Jaeger on March 15, 2023, 09:04:21 PM
So people from the SD circle of friends and acquaintances then. Because the complete game isn't even out yet.

There was a beta and it was fairly widely distributed, likely in their discord community which is pretty active and tight knit. I don't think it's a matter of things being kept intentionally closed up, so much that the game was pretty much flying under everyone's radar(oh yawn, yet another OSR clone) until the launch and publicity blew up on it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM

Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.

This is pendantic, petty, and splitting hairs. You are saying that Shadowdark is not OSR-enough? What that they didn't have a Google+ account removes them from being considered an OSR product?

Quote from: Jaeger
So people from the SD circle of friends and acquaintances then. Because the complete game isn't even out yet.

This certainly gives SD the illusion of some kind of 'broad' 3pp support.

Look, for all we know it may tap into something and take off like a rocket. But right now that is pure speculation.


All I'm saying is this: One successful KS does not a OSE-B/X rivaling player network make.

Only time will tell how it really takes.

3rd party publishers that are onboard range from large patreon's to 1 or 2 man shop publishers. No major 3rd party publisher has stated they are publishing products for Shadowdark. They actually have a list of 3pp products here and it's 59 at the time of writing:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14KbvKlqmoucIZE9IM49mtSKfLczWEd2tZ5NbP-cQXVk/edit#gid=0


Furthermore, in the Kickstarter itself, the rules are all written and ready to be delivered at the end of the kickstarter.  There is no waiting for the book to be finished since it's done.  Some people have early access to the finished rules and have said so. Those people MAY be putting out products for SD.  The quickstart rules alone are enough to get you from levels 1-3 including the GM guide.  No one is putting out a level 10 dungeon here, this is all very low level material (spells, classes, adventures, etc.).

An RPG product making over a million bucks is a major milestone, this feat alone is worth noticing and investigating.

OSR is so vague a concept. It means totally different things to different people. It's pointless to argue whether this is OSR or not or how much OSR it contains.

Shadow Dark is 99.44% OSR!

Free Grognard in every box!

9 out of 10 blue-haired tieflings hate it!

OSR is a label, and like any other label it can be overly reductionist and deceptive.

IF Shadowdark gets played and builds a significant following, calling it OSR or not isn't going to matter. Look at how DCC is treated. Some say OSR, others say OSR-inspired or OSR adjacent, but really who cares? Loads of people play DCC regardless of its categorization.

If it's successful, it will pull a lot of people who exclusively play D&D 5E out of that mindset, which is a good thing for the hobby as a whole. There will be more players willing to try non-5E games.

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 16, 2023, 11:56:46 AM
OSR is so vague a concept. It means totally different things to different people. It's pointless to argue whether this is OSR or not or how much OSR it contains.

Amen! I've seen 3e retroclones described as "OSR" and as someone who's been playing RPGs since 1978 I'm thinking "huh? Since when is 3e D&D 'old school'?" I literally can't tell what OSR means other than "a game that isn't 5e D&D or 2e Pathfinder, often liked by folks with a deep disdain for both those systems and the people who play them"

Quote from: Festus on March 16, 2023, 12:23:32 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 16, 2023, 11:56:46 AM
OSR is so vague a concept. It means totally different things to different people. It's pointless to argue whether this is OSR or not or how much OSR it contains.

Amen! I've seen 3e retroclones described as "OSR" and as someone who's been playing RPGs since 1978 I'm thinking "huh? Since when is 3e D&D 'old school'?" I literally can't tell what OSR means other than "a game that isn't 5e D&D or 2e Pathfinder, often liked by folks with a deep disdain for both those systems and the people who play them"

It sounds like you're doubting on 3E as "old school", but the topic was the opposite claim -- that old-school grognards who are into old school stuff (1E, BX, retroclones, etc.) don't count as OSR because they haven't changed with the times to get in on 2nd or 3rd wave OSR. As S'mon and Pundit discuss it,

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM

Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu she came up in.

Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.

Pundit - are you saying that 1st wave OSR doesn't count as OSR?

The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:

What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?

So far, it doesn't impress me much.

I would wish them all the best but they don't seem to need it.
I am quite happy with Traveller, Savage Worlds, 5e or 13th Age, and hundreds of other games.
But, someone running SD and I happily turn up and play.