Quote from: migo on March 13, 2023, 09:53:27 AM
Or caved to the mob to avoid being constantly harassed. He reviewed a LotFP product after the mob was working to cancel them, and had the mob turn on him for it. It may well be he's simply spineless.

This is my take on Ben. He's got a following, makes some quid, and he doesn't want to jeopardize it.

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2023, 05:02:41 PM
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Hey Leopold! I also watched Tenkar and his group play during the Live Stream. The game looks good. As you mentioned, everyone in Tenkar's group--Rob Connoly, Joe The Lawyer, and more--all had positive things to say about Shadowdark. The criticisms were few and minor. It seems like this game is going to be HUGE. It seems like it will be bigger than OSE, and become a strong pillar for the OSR in general.
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Shadowdark will definitely make a splash for sure. I would not be surprised if the KS clicked over 1mil.

But bigger than OSE? Likely not.

They would have to extraordinarily successful in converting those sales into a steady player network.

I think people do not realize why OSE is so big - even though it is 'just a clone' of B/X.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 13, 2023, 07:25:57 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2023, 05:02:41 PM
...

Hey Leopold! I also watched Tenkar and his group play during the Live Stream. The game looks good. As you mentioned, everyone in Tenkar's group--Rob Connoly, Joe The Lawyer, and more--all had positive things to say about Shadowdark. The criticisms were few and minor. It seems like this game is going to be HUGE. It seems like it will be bigger than OSE, and become a strong pillar for the OSR in general.
...

Shadowdark will definitely make a splash for sure. I would not be surprised if the KS clicked over 1mil.

But bigger than OSE? Likely not.

They would have to extraordinarily successful in converting those sales into a steady player network.

I think people do not realize why OSE is so big - even though it is 'just a clone' of B/X.

OSE is big because of the superior layout. It's about production values. Shadowdark is looking good in that regard.

Arcane Library already has a number of adventures published for 5e. Seemingly published at a rate of 4 per year while she was working on Shadowdark. Once it's published she'll have more time to devote just to adventures, so the rate should be at least the same, if not better. That's a very good way to establish a foothold. With 3rd party support even moreso.

OSE has Dolmenwood (but it's getting its own version of OSE that already appears divisive, that may be better or worse for it in the long run).

Quote from: Jaeger on March 13, 2023, 07:25:57 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2023, 05:02:41 PM
...

Hey Leopold! I also watched Tenkar and his group play during the Live Stream. The game looks good. As you mentioned, everyone in Tenkar's group--Rob Connoly, Joe The Lawyer, and more--all had positive things to say about Shadowdark. The criticisms were few and minor. It seems like this game is going to be HUGE. It seems like it will be bigger than OSE, and become a strong pillar for the OSR in general.
...

Shadowdark will definitely make a splash for sure. I would not be surprised if the KS clicked over 1mil.

But bigger than OSE? Likely not.

They would have to extraordinarily successful in converting those sales into a steady player network.

I think people do not realize why OSE is so big - even though it is 'just a clone' of B/X.

Greetings!

Indeed, Jaeger. I think Shadowdark will be huge though. It may not become bigger than OSE, that's true. That's okay though, in my book, either way. I like the fact that design-wise, Shadowdark has been inspired by many different sources--nit just content with being a retroclone. Shadowdark takes little bites from OD&D, AD&D, OSE, LOTFP, ICRPG, Deathbringer, DCC, and certainly, 5E. Mixing all that up into something that is familiar, while also being fresh, new, and approaching the design with fresh eyes, embracing innovations. Yes, there are *many* innovations beyond OD&D. That might rub OD&D fanatics up the wrong way--but, *shrugs*--that's why preferences are a good thing. Personally, there are aspects of 5E that I like, and I'm glad to see Kelsey, too, is also a fan of 5E. So, I like a good mix of mechanics, design, style and so on. I think Shadowdark will be in a strong position to bridge the "gap" between 5E and OSR. I suspect that Shadowdark will appeal strongly to lots of gamers that find OSE insufficient, or not satisfying, for whatever reasons.

An well, I also love the Shadowdark layout and presentation. Good use and economy of space, excellent readability, and usability at the table. That's a huge benefit that Runehammer discussed in his video about Shadowdark. Runehammer admitted himself--that he was throwing OSE out, and letting Shadowdark become his main game. So, that kind of usability and accessibility is a feature I also really love. Then, I so love the black an white colours, the layout. Sharp, simple, and clean. This then flows also into the black & White artwork, which I also love. It definitely captures a gritty, AD&D feel in all the artwork. These are some of the things that make me excited about Shadowdark.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The author of Shadowdark is just good at the RPG business. Good writer, experienced adventure designer, good website, good marketing. The art, the layout, the design, the editing are all strong. 136 pages of free download quickstart pdfs before the KS even opened. The KS campaign itself well designed with pricing bundles that entice one to order more. A ton of 3PP material already in the KS and on DTRPG. Has a popular discord. Has an active YouTube channel. She built an online community *before* the KS (a strategy Matt Colville also used to great effect.) Has obviously networked and made friends in the designer community counting Brandish Gilhelm at Runehammer, Dan Masters (Prof DM), Ben Milton among them. All of this built up over the last five years or so. Not an overnight or out of nowhere kind of deal.

Clearly she's found an audience willing to part with their cash.

So what exactly is off? Being good at business? Being good at writing? Making friends in the community? Being successful at her *job*? When did those become bad things?

Quote from: Festus on March 15, 2023, 01:16:58 AM
The author of Shadowdark is just good at the RPG business.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!

Quote from: Festus on March 15, 2023, 01:16:58 AM
So what exactly is off? Being good at business? Being good at writing? Making friends in the community? Being successful at her *job*? When did those become bad things?

Basically she's coming from 5e (at least as far as being an adventure designer goes) and making an OSR game. OSR players who paid no attention to 5e would have no clue who she is, so it seems like a nobody getting a lot of attention and praise (and this has happened before). Of course she's not a nobody, she just moved in completely different circles.

That has been settled in this thread, but it's understandable why some people would go, 'wait a minute...' and ask what's going on.

I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu she came up in.

Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu she came up in.

Greetings!

WTF? That is funny, S'mon! How the hell is Garycon--featuring so many grognards--somehow, "doesn't count" as OSR? Garycon. Full of grognards, that play D&D. Probably lots of OD&D and AD&D going on. That's not OSR? To Pundit? WTF?

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It's maybe the same weird thing with Castles & Crusades. It was the first OSR game, but somehow it's too old to count.

Quote from: migo on March 15, 2023, 11:14:22 AM
It's maybe the same weird thing with Castles & Crusades. It was the first OSR game, but somehow it's too old to count.

I disagree. Arguably the first OSR game was Hackmaster 4th Ed, which came out in '01.

Quote from: blackstone on March 15, 2023, 11:24:22 AM

Quote from: migo on March 15, 2023, 11:14:22 AM
It's maybe the same weird thing with Castles & Crusades. It was the first OSR game, but somehow it's too old to count.

I disagree. Arguably the first OSR game was Hackmaster 4th Ed, which came out in '01.

The goal wasn't to revive an old playing style. The goal was to sell the game that existed in the KotDT comics. If you don't factor intent in, and you're counting Hackmaster 4e, then you could say Palladium Fantasy even predates it.

Quote from: migo on March 15, 2023, 11:14:22 AM
It's maybe the same weird thing with Castles & Crusades. It was the first OSR game, but somehow it's too old to count.

   I think the argument is either 'too old to be part of the movement' or 'not enough like TSR D&D'. But two gamers, three opinions, and there's a sizable branch of the OSR that wants it to equate to 'stuff I approve of.' Then you get the spinoffs like the defunct Sworddream movement or the currently active and imperializing BrOSR ...

Kickstarter is approaching $900k ,  more 3rd party publishers are starting to come on board,  the discord is friendly and welcoming and Kelsey is open to being interviewed by Pundit and others in the OSR and has asked for the oppertunity to do so.

Quote from: migo on March 13, 2023, 08:26:14 PM
OSE is big because of the superior layout. It's about production values. Shadowdark is looking good in that regard.

OSE's layout is one factor - an underrated one by those that played B/X for decades.

But its not just layout or production values.

OSE taps into the entire B/X OSR ecosystem. This is a big deal: Old modules, new modules etc,. It is not dependent on their dolemwood setting hitting big to tap into the larger OSR B/X player network.

Shadowdark is not as directly compatible to the existing B/X OSR ecosystem as OSE.

The success of the KS may lead to a steady player network to sell adventures, and grow the game. But that is something that will not be readily apparent for a few years.