Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 12:56:58 PM
Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.

For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.

As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.

Thanks, Feratu. Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
In theory, Shadowdark could end up drawing in thousands of new people into the OSR, but who are essentially immigrants from 5e culture and the mentalities of their toxic "5e Community". They'll bring wokeness, the idea that popular twitch actors or youtube influencers who have never produced a single mechanic are the equals or even superiors of the actual designers, and a culture that demands "niceness" and thus turns the kind of constant criticisms we make of each other's products in the OSR into "hate speech" that can't be allowed (destroying creators' ability to improve their skills). You might think that's exaggeration, but look at the thousands of tweets from people saying that actually "reviews" like dungeoncrafts that only say NICE things are way better than MEAN ones because "we need to support each other and not be triggering" or whatever. OMG LOL, etc etc

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 02:02:37 PM
And she's inviting all the 5e people to come to the OSR, but not to join the culture of the OSR, but rather to INVADE it with the 5e "community values" that frankly make that fandom so toxic. Now I'm not saying she is being malevolent in her intention, she's doing all this without any real thought for the culture clash that will inevitably follow. But she obviously LOVES the design culture of the OSR, way more than she likes 5e; so she has to figure out that if she wants 5e to become more like the OSR, instead of the OSR being ruined by 5e fans, she needs to teach this wave of immigrants how to integrate and adopt OUR values, rather than trying to impose the values they're fleeing from on our culture, starting with herself.

Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM

Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 12:56:58 PM
Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.

For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.

As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.

Thanks, Feratu. Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
In theory, Shadowdark could end up drawing in thousands of new people into the OSR, but who are essentially immigrants from 5e culture and the mentalities of their toxic "5e Community". They'll bring wokeness, the idea that popular twitch actors or youtube influencers who have never produced a single mechanic are the equals or even superiors of the actual designers, and a culture that demands "niceness" and thus turns the kind of constant criticisms we make of each other's products in the OSR into "hate speech" that can't be allowed (destroying creators' ability to improve their skills). You might think that's exaggeration, but look at the thousands of tweets from people saying that actually "reviews" like dungeoncrafts that only say NICE things are way better than MEAN ones because "we need to support each other and not be triggering" or whatever. OMG LOL, etc etc

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 02:02:37 PM
And she's inviting all the 5e people to come to the OSR, but not to join the culture of the OSR, but rather to INVADE it with the 5e "community values" that frankly make that fandom so toxic. Now I'm not saying she is being malevolent in her intention, she's doing all this without any real thought for the culture clash that will inevitably follow. But she obviously LOVES the design culture of the OSR, way more than she likes 5e; so she has to figure out that if she wants 5e to become more like the OSR, instead of the OSR being ruined by 5e fans, she needs to teach this wave of immigrants how to integrate and adopt OUR values, rather than trying to impose the values they're fleeing from on our culture, starting with herself.

Yeah now that you mention it, I am worried about what Pundit is saying here too. I can easily see it happening. I don't play 5E because I don't like the expectations players force upon 5E GMs. I like the OSR because the mentality of it and the players suits the kinds of games I want to run. You can say it won't matter because it won't affect your groups but when all the groups just want to play this game and nothing else. The result is the same. I as the GM can't run the sort of games I want to. Because EVERYONE has these weird woke expectations I can't cater to.

Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM


Thanks, Feratu. Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?

shit people are gonna shit up the game because that's what shit people do regardless if they play IndexRPG, LOTFP, PF2e, or 5e.  Shadowdark will attract those shit tier types of people because that's what some folks do, they migrate like locusts over to the next thing to destroy it because they are garbage humans.

Knowing that COULD happen the OSR community as a whole gatekeeps and welcomes new players in at the same time with the "Welcome to the OSR!" and "That shit don't fly here, fuck right off"   That will be the clash and the bigger the fight the more these mouthbreathing fuckwhistles will try to leach onto Shadowdark to twist it to their warped view of what the OSR "should be".

It'll be interesting to say the least and if the community as a whole can filter out the bad actors from the good that will be the best for everyone involved. The GM level setting expectations with "This will be different than 5e, let's keep an open mind here" is worth repeating.

Unless jackbooted thugs tie all the OSR creators to Ludovico Technique-like machines, I don't think the OSR has any worries about being "invaded".

Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
Unless jackbooted thugs tie all the OSR creators to Ludovico Technique-like machines, I don't think the OSR has any worries about being "invaded".

I mean it's not like the hobby as a whole, and every other form of media, have been invaded by terraforming ideologues that destroy everything they touch, and drive out the unbelievers...

But I'm sure you're right, OSR is uniquely immune among all of Western culture.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 09, 2023, 01:59:51 PM

Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
Unless jackbooted thugs tie all the OSR creators to Ludovico Technique-like machines, I don't think the OSR has any worries about being "invaded".

I mean it's not like the hobby as a whole, and every other form of media, have been invaded by terraforming ideologues that destroy everything they touch, and drive out the unbelievers...

But I'm sure you're right, OSR is uniquely immune among all of Western culture.

No, but the same creative impulse that spawned the OSR will survive, as long as those creators survive. So no immunity required: simple creative vitality and free will.

Clearly these new people will be playing OSR wrong, just like people play Narrative(tm) games wrong. I mean, God forbid I describe what my character in Fate Core does mechanically: "I'd like to pop on a +2 later, so I'm gonna create advantage... hmmm... I feint with my sword." That's just wrong man, you gotta describe what your character does first, in narrative 5 beat rhythm poetry, THEN decide on the mechanics. 

I suppose we should write up a 20 page manifesto on what OSR is, on like, a spiritual level, so the nasty newbies don't dare play the game in a way that likely 80% of the gaming population back in the 80's actually played AD&D(modded for lower death, higher power, fuck all level limits, screw encumbrance, no one tracked torches, or did morale and ran reaction rolls). Cuz those fools weren't playing it The Right Way and we need to make sure that shit doesn't happen again today.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 09, 2023, 01:59:51 PM

Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
Unless jackbooted thugs tie all the OSR creators to Ludovico Technique-like machines, I don't think the OSR has any worries about being "invaded".

I mean it's not like the hobby as a whole, and every other form of media, have been invaded by terraforming ideologues that destroy everything they touch, and drive out the unbelievers...

But I'm sure you're right, OSR is uniquely immune among all of Western culture.

What grants the OSR a bit of natural immunity is that it's not centralized, there's not a pope or king of the OSR, you can't just infiltrate ONE publisher and boom! The OSR is now ours!.

They might manage to subvert the label (OSR) but if so then what? Either we invent a new one or do what many already do, publish without the OSR monicker.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 02:07:40 PM
They might manage to subvert the label (OSR) but if so then what? Either we invent a new one or do what many already do, publish without the OSR monicker.

We can call ourselves "The New Originals" or "The Peoples Front of OSR", but *not* "The OSRan Peoples Front". Fie on them folks.

Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 12:56:58 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 09, 2023, 09:24:21 AM
...No fucking woke BS, not even any politics, of any kind. Refreshing...

Shark,

Definitely. It's always been that way with The Arcane Library. Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.

For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.

As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.

Greetings!

BROTHER FERATU!

Damn, man. I agree entirely. It is fantastic hearing someone--and a gamer girl at that--go on about gaming concepts, techniques, and game stuff with *zero* woke politics. It's my observation that most women involved with gaming seem to also be woke, so that's why it is especially refreshing to me. Oh, and honestly, as I recall--many, many male game designers, writers, and artists are also, unfortunately, predominantly Libtard, too. I'd say the ratio is particularly higher for the women though. That's just my personal observation and experience, though. So, yeah, seeing Kelsey laser-focused on gaming is very enjoyable.

Your commentary on buying the $250 dollar package--damn. You bring up some excellent points that I had overlooked or didn't consider! I will probably cycle back around, hopefully somehow, and get Kelsey to send me an extra three or four core game books!

And you also bring up a good point about her genuine knowledge, enthusiasm, and professionalism. I realize for some, it seems like she just popped up out of no where--but a close observation of Kelsey's history shows that she has, in fact, been around the hobby for quite some time. She has also been designing game stuff for 5 years or more. So, she didn't just wake up last week and decide to give game design a try. I have also mentioned previously in this thread--I think I did!--that, even if YOU, or me, or whoever, hasn't heard of someone--it has been my observation that our hobby is far larger than most people actually believe it is. There are LOTS of people creating, designing, contributing--and making money along the way, too--in this hobby, and many have been doing so, for many years. I mentioned we have some of those people right here on our boards, as members. There are many others that we have not heard about. That doesn't mean that they aren't out there though, contributing, and doing their thing.

I think it is great that Kelsey has presented her Shadowdark game, even more so at this fortunate moment in time. Lots of people have proclaimed that the OSR is full of wonderful, creative people, and there are fantastic ongoing opportunities for anyone to get involved! So, to the haters, why not Kelsey? Why can't she present her game to the public, and contribute?

Great commentary, Feratu!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM
Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?

I GM a lot of 5e and the woke-toxic players I see are a tiny minority. The average 5e player does skew more liberal than the average OSR player, but that doesn't bother me. I understand it bothers Pundit.

HOWEVER those average 'Ginny Di/Critical Role' 5e players are NOT who Kelsey is actually marketing to! She's actually marketing to the OSR-adjacent 'Professor DM/Questing Beast' watching types who are considerably more centrist than the modal Critical Role fan. They are already halfway to OSR. So I think Pundit's fear is unfounded. Even if a bunch of Ginny D&Ders playing OSR and quoting Matt Mercer would be a tragedy - that's not what's going to happen.

Edit: Having a few dozen players in my 5e player cohort, it has admittedly been interesting seeing them tend to separate out into a couple factions, roughly matching the above, liberal vs centrist & conservative, Critters vs Grognards. On the Internet they tend to annoy each other. In live games they get on fine.

Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM

Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 12:56:58 PM
Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.

For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.

As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.

Thanks, Feratu. Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
In theory, Shadowdark could end up drawing in thousands of new people into the OSR, but who are essentially immigrants from 5e culture and the mentalities of their toxic "5e Community". They'll bring wokeness, the idea that popular twitch actors or youtube influencers who have never produced a single mechanic are the equals or even superiors of the actual designers, and a culture that demands "niceness" and thus turns the kind of constant criticisms we make of each other's products in the OSR into "hate speech" that can't be allowed (destroying creators' ability to improve their skills). You might think that's exaggeration, but look at the thousands of tweets from people saying that actually "reviews" like dungeoncrafts that only say NICE things are way better than MEAN ones because "we need to support each other and not be triggering" or whatever. OMG LOL, etc etc

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 02:02:37 PM
And she's inviting all the 5e people to come to the OSR, but not to join the culture of the OSR, but rather to INVADE it with the 5e "community values" that frankly make that fandom so toxic. Now I'm not saying she is being malevolent in her intention, she's doing all this without any real thought for the culture clash that will inevitably follow. But she obviously LOVES the design culture of the OSR, way more than she likes 5e; so she has to figure out that if she wants 5e to become more like the OSR, instead of the OSR being ruined by 5e fans, she needs to teach this wave of immigrants how to integrate and adopt OUR values, rather than trying to impose the values they're fleeing from on our culture, starting with herself.

Greetings!

Hey Jhkim! Your commentary brought something to my mind almost immediately.

Why the fuck is it ON KELSEY to worry a damned thing about "What 5E gamers!" do, or don't do? The same thing could be said for "OSR Gamers!" It's about capitalism, baby. Making the green, bro. Right? Beyond that, as a creative expression, and just as seriously, why can't she just create and contribute--to gaming--like she has been doing for YEARS now?

Somehow, front-loading some stupid ideological burden on her seems entirely unfair and unjustified to me. I mean, really. Broad our fucking minds, you know? *I CONSIDER IDEOLOGICALAND POLITICAL STUFF*--but not everyone does. Why isn't that okay? Does every single game designer, writer, and author in the OSR goddamnit have to think just like SHARK, or Pundit, or anyone else?

You, of course, know that I am a fierce opponent to Marxists and the woke Libtards. Being a champion against terrible ideology and twisted political and social agendas is always good, and I applaud and promote everyone to become...*REDPILLED* *Laughing* However, there are a good number of people in our hobby that are not interested in fighting political wars everyday, in everything they do. Especially gaming, and some of them even make special efforts to leave politics at the fucking door when they go in, to otherwise sit at the gaming table.

I of course, could be wrong on Kelsey, for example, but whether it is through her own personal, political disengagement or a purposeful, intentional choice to avoid politics in her gaming, I would like to believe it is okay to give her the benefit of the doubt, and to simply rejoice and be happy that she has chosen not to involve herself--and especially her Shadowdark game--with politics.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 09, 2023, 02:36:58 PM
Why the fuck is it ON KELSEY to worry a damned thing about "What 5E gamers!" do, or don't do?

Yeah, that was my immediate reaction too. It seems an incredibly heavy burden to give someone, the responsibility of maintaining the Purity of the OSR.

I think the OSR has already proved that it can look after itself. It is exceptionally resistant to political subversion - ofc Kelsey shows no sign of trying to subvert it, but we have seen some attempts. Its decentralised nature is anathema to the Wokesters' tactics, which derive from Gramsci & Alinsky, and are aimed at bureaucracies and large corporations. They can't even subvert any OSR bulletin boards that I can think of. They're reduced to making their own venues - which of course sink without trace.

Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 12:55:56 PM
OK, so that's Questing Beast openly saying it is a sponsored review. My question is, how common is this compared to competitors? I would suspect that sponsored reviews and similar paid marketing are common for RPG Kickstarters, which naturally are trying to promote themselves as much as possible. Do other RPG Kickstarters typically rely on only unpaid word-of-mouth?

EDITED TO ADD: I missed rkhigdon's post. Thanks for that, rkhigdon - but I'm happy to hear from others as well.

In board gaming, it has been a thing for years now. Theres alot of reviewers now who expect a free copy of the game at the very least. Which makes their reviews questionable at the very least.

Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM

...Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?

jhkim,

My response to the first part of the question would be to reject the premise that it is somehow Kelsey's responsibility to police anyone's choices or behavior as it pertains to integrating into the OSR. That reply may be unhelpful, but I believe it is objectively factual. Folks gonna do what folks gonna do. There is a caveat, however and I will expand on that in a moment.

Folks like us who embrace OSR have been dealt some harsh blows, one recent example being the PBS article characterizing the OSR as being solely preoccupied with preserving a white masculine worldview. It implied that we OSR fans are stuck in the past, unable or unwilling to grapple with newer concepts. One rebuttal I noticed on Reddit made a point that people who prefer swing music, or black-and-white films, or Jane Austen novels aren't normally considered "problematic" people who don't want to make way for "diversity" and "inclusion."

When I was in the 'Corps, we talked a lot about leadership by example. Without explicitly drawing attention to her lifestyle choices, Kelsey is leading by example. She's showing that, gay or straight, we can all just have fun being OSR gamers. This has the potential to reverse some of the misconceptions surrounding OSR "culture." Will everyone coming over from WotC be objective enough to look around and give the OSR a fair shake? Answer incoming.

We had another saying in the 'Corps: "Every group has it's 10%." Troublemakers (we called 'em shitbirds). In the case of WotC evacuees, people dishonestly and opportunistically agitating for MORE! MORE! MORE! bipoc, queer and female representation and accommodation. Well, surprise, shitbirds - we've got plenty of that already. Which leads to my final point.

Another saying we had in the 'Corps... It was closely related to leadership by example, and that is: "Good leaders model desired behavior." By not making a fuss about her preferences, and just being a traditional OSR gamer and enthusiast, Kelsey is modeling desired behavior, and leading by example - just by doing what she's doing, in the way she's doing it.

Will the 10% learn from her example? Some won't. There are always going to be intellectually dishonest people, opportunists seeking new opportunities to grift on perceived victimization of themselves and others. Either way, it's an opportunity to change some minds and add new fans to the OSR and I'm hopeful. I hope that answers your question, jhkim.