To be honest, I don't really care whether the review is positive or negative.  For me, the main thing is how much they show of the actual product. That lets me determine whether I'll likely enjoy it and/or get use out of it.  So it's the detail and presentation that matter to me and things that are selling points for some, like the much-vaunted "modern mechanics," are not selling points for me at all.  So I watched a couple videos for this and once I actually saw the product, layout, etc., it was an easy pass for me.

I think that, of the Youtuber reviewers, Seth Skorkawsky is the one that does it best. He only reviews things he played, no mere flipping through pages. He will tell you the good, tell you the bad, and tell you how to fix the bad, if you still want to use the product. I don't think he is unbiased—I left the naïve belief of unbiased, objective journalism a long time ago—, but that is not required in a review for me. The thing I am not sure is if he ever did, or if he often does sponsored reviews; I don't even care if they are sponsored, because I never watched a Seth review in which he didn't find something to be fixed. Even when he reviewed his own adventure.

Quote from: zer0th on March 07, 2023, 12:23:21 PM
I think that, of the Youtuber reviewers, Seth Skorkawsky is the one that does it best. He only reviews things he played, no mere flipping through pages. He will tell you the good, tell you the bad, and tell you how to fix the bad, if you still want to use the product. I don't think he is unbiased—I left the naïve belief of unbiased, objective journalism a long time ago—, but that is not required in a review for me. The thing I am not sure is if he ever did, or if he often does sponsored reviews; I don't even care if they are sponsored, because I never watched a Seth review in which he didn't find something to be fixed. Even when he reviewed his own adventure.

He does great reviews. He's one bloke that will definitely get me interested in a game if he likes it. I also prefer that 2012 style of filming - No frills, HD or stupid intro graphics just a dude talking about games.

I definitely like Seth Skorkawsky. Of course he's not really a D&D guy, unlike me. But his stuff on other games/genres is great.

Quote from: S'mon on March 07, 2023, 01:42:28 PM
I definitely like Seth Skorkawsky. Of course he's not really a D&D guy, unlike me. But his stuff on other games/genres is great.

For sure... He likes some dark fantasy stuff as well. That's how I heard about Black Iron.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 07, 2023, 01:45:35 PM
For sure... He likes some dark fantasy stuff as well. That's how I heard about Black Iron.

I like his obnoxious player skits. 

Quote from: S'mon on March 07, 2023, 03:38:42 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 07, 2023, 01:45:35 PM
For sure... He likes some dark fantasy stuff as well. That's how I heard about Black Iron.

I like his obnoxious player skits. 

Me too, he is a good channel

Quote from: Persimmon on March 07, 2023, 08:38:52 AM
To be honest, I don't really care whether the review is positive or negative...and once I actually saw the product, layout, etc., it was an easy pass for me.

Likewise, and I wonder how many made their own assessments, since it was freely available, and are part of the horde willing to pay? There's not really any way to know how influential someone else's opinion was in comparison to those folks forming their own. And if a substantial number simply watched a video without availing themselves of the quickstart, well caveat emptor and all that.

I backed the KS at the $249 level because it fullfills a need that meets Old School rules that I grew up playing with modern mechanics that streamline those same said rules since they were introduced nearly 50 years ago.  We have advanced in that time and I'm not about to cling to antiquated rules that are clunky and cumbersome just because it's How It Was Done.   I want the rules to reflect what we have learned and developed since the White Box to push the game forward while simplifying certain systems (fuck 1E Saves and Theif Skill Checks)  because a new methodology was developed.

Shadowdark fits the dungeon crawl "feel" of 1/2E with rules I can throw at my players that they understand, grasp, and utilized in 20minutes without having to reinvent the wheel.  Some things can change, some will stay the same, and they can adapt as I push them along.  The rules are enough of a delta difference to be intuitive to 5e players with OSR players saying "that works too , it's similiar to BX and OSE".

I tore through her back catalogue of videos to see if this had the making of some undercover wokescold product in disguise.  Nothing came up. None of her videos where she talks about her roots in gaming from age 12 in Wisconsin at Gencon then Garycon with having her met EGG in person to her becoming a journalist to switching to a fulltime Adventure Writer.  She grew up with 1/2E and moved into 3E/5E as the hobby progressed.  Kelsey has been working on this project for THREE years, not a 2 month project but YEARS.  She had her quickstarts out months prior with people commenting and putting up videos as early as 5 months ago.  The OGL scandal broke when she was already slated to release this KS anyway and now she's in the right place at the right time. She caught lightning in a bottle.


Her wife is in marketing and having worked in higher end ventures you can see how/why this product was distributed the way it was. There are dozens of youtube content creators from 5E folks to Grognards. Few have found any hard/fast issues with the rules and those who have played it say they enjoyed their time with the rules as they were easy to run with and PC creation was a breeze (3d6 straight down) and GM'n with 1hr Real Life timers for torches created the "tension" that most games are missing.

I'm hoping she breaks $2M and keeps making more products , good on her, she's earned this victory lap.   

As an aside from the current debate on whether something is off or not, in her live AMA YouTube video Kelsey did say she liked the Conan story Red Nails which is a thumbs up in my book.

I'm a bit behind, but in reply to the OP.   This RPG seems to have come out of nowhere to me too, and it does feel off, but I have learned over the years that I am generally disconnected from whatever the main stream of popularity is so it doesn't surprise me that something could pop out of nowhere like this, because I didn't pay attention to any of the work that was building up to it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2023, 09:08:17 PM
Since I can't comment in the red list thread I'll say it her because it seems the best place to do so:

#GamerGate started because of corrupt and incestuous relationships between the games journos and certain game designers.

The creator of Shadowdark paying to QuestingBeast (and maybe others) to review her game stink to high heaven of the exact same corruption and or incestuous relationships, since I suspect that some of the glowing reviews were due to friendship and not money.

I know it's fashionable to browbeat Pundit but I find myself agreeing with the questions.

Pointing out elements of the game taken from other games isn't a sign of "look, she's profiting from my work!" (I doubt Pundit has that mindset since I TOLD him I was taking his monkey people for my Mayan game and he NEVER mentioned crediting him or anything), it's a sign that it's not a product of her mind alone.

Several people here and on mewe have agreed the game doesn't seem all that innovative, so why all the glowing reviews?

I think this is a fair question.

I realise this is retorical but I'm going to give my own opinion here. Yes I believe there's something Cliquey going on here. Too many positive reviews just happened to jump out at roughly the same time. There is something going on there for sure. But also, Women in nerd spaces have an inherent buff by being a woman in a nerdy space. People will fall over themselves to praise a woman for doing half the work an equivalent man would do. It's why I never ever believe it when people say Women are discriminated against in the RPG space. No. Quite the opposite and I've seen nothing to challenge what I've directly seen IRL and Online. I've seen her videos and beyond her claiming to have personally known Gary Gygax, I see nothing that differentiates herself or her game from OSE, LotFP, and other retro clones and 5E hybrids. Everything she's sprouting as profound knowledge as a game designer is stuff I learned in my first year of GMing. It's not groundbreaking stuff. She's clearly being propped up by OSR youtubers and I think that needs to be pointed out a lot more.

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 09, 2023, 12:16:18 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2023, 09:08:17 PM
Since I can't comment in the red list thread I'll say it her because it seems the best place to do so:

#GamerGate started because of corrupt and incestuous relationships between the games journos and certain game designers.

The creator of Shadowdark paying to QuestingBeast (and maybe others) to review her game stink to high heaven of the exact same corruption and or incestuous relationships, since I suspect that some of the glowing reviews were due to friendship and not money.

I know it's fashionable to browbeat Pundit but I find myself agreeing with the questions.

Pointing out elements of the game taken from other games isn't a sign of "look, she's profiting from my work!" (I doubt Pundit has that mindset since I TOLD him I was taking his monkey people for my Mayan game and he NEVER mentioned crediting him or anything), it's a sign that it's not a product of her mind alone.

Several people here and on mewe have agreed the game doesn't seem all that innovative, so why all the glowing reviews?

I think this is a fair question.

I realise this is retorical but I'm going to give my own opinion here. Yes I believe there's something Cliquey going on here. Too many positive reviews just happened to jump out at roughly the same time. There is something going on there for sure. But also, Women in nerd spaces have an inherent buff by being a woman in a nerdy space. People will fall over themselves to praise a woman for doing half the work an equivalent man would do. It's why I never ever believe it when people say Women are discriminated against in the RPG space. No. Quite the opposite and I've seen nothing to challenge what I've directly seen IRL and Online. I've seen her videos and beyond her claiming to have personally known Gary Gygax, I see nothing that differentiates herself or her game from OSE, LotFP, and other retro clones and 5E hybrids. Everything she's sprouting as profound knowledge as a game designer is stuff I learned in my first year of GMing. It's not groundbreaking stuff. She's clearly being propped up by OSR youtubers and I think that needs to be pointed out a lot more.

I honestly had no idea who the author was, her race/sex/creed/color, or any other bit of info when i read through the quickstart.  The work speaks for itself.

She's not being "propped up" by any youtubers, she has people supporting her because the work is GOOD.  The buzz around the product is bridging the gap from 5E to OSR as it fits both playstyles as a happy medium. 

Furthermore, people are making videos because Shadowdark is "HOT" so their youtube click through and recommendations pop up even more. This is similar to the OGL scandal 2 months ago where all of a sudden you'd go on youtube and you'd be bombarded with people you never heard of talking about the OGL.  People want subscribeers because they want to make their channel grow.

Is there white knighting going on? I'm sure there is.  M'ladyism is strong in the Grognarisphere.  Hell she just donated $500 to a chairity that DM Masterpiece did in a live stream talking discussing her produt matching the viewers donations all for helping putting lights on in poor kids homes in Africa.

I implore anyone that wants to be skeptical to ask the questions directly to Kelsey as Pundit did and get your answers from her, she's approachable and amicable.  I did my homework as I'm not throwing more money at woke shitty hateful pronoun riddled kickstarter garbage regardless of quality and detail.  Shadowdark is interesting and deserves all of our attention to help make it better if it needs it and to help it succeed as the ingress to more OSR products.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 09, 2023, 09:00:32 AM

Quote from: King Tyranno on March 09, 2023, 12:16:18 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2023, 09:08:17 PM
Since I can't comment in the red list thread I'll say it her because it seems the best place to do so:

#GamerGate started because of corrupt and incestuous relationships between the games journos and certain game designers.

The creator of Shadowdark paying to QuestingBeast (and maybe others) to review her game stink to high heaven of the exact same corruption and or incestuous relationships, since I suspect that some of the glowing reviews were due to friendship and not money.

I know it's fashionable to browbeat Pundit but I find myself agreeing with the questions.

Pointing out elements of the game taken from other games isn't a sign of "look, she's profiting from my work!" (I doubt Pundit has that mindset since I TOLD him I was taking his monkey people for my Mayan game and he NEVER mentioned crediting him or anything), it's a sign that it's not a product of her mind alone.

Several people here and on mewe have agreed the game doesn't seem all that innovative, so why all the glowing reviews?

I think this is a fair question.

I realise this is retorical but I'm going to give my own opinion here. Yes I believe there's something Cliquey going on here. Too many positive reviews just happened to jump out at roughly the same time. There is something going on there for sure. But also, Women in nerd spaces have an inherent buff by being a woman in a nerdy space. People will fall over themselves to praise a woman for doing half the work an equivalent man would do. It's why I never ever believe it when people say Women are discriminated against in the RPG space. No. Quite the opposite and I've seen nothing to challenge what I've directly seen IRL and Online. I've seen her videos and beyond her claiming to have personally known Gary Gygax, I see nothing that differentiates herself or her game from OSE, LotFP, and other retro clones and 5E hybrids. Everything she's sprouting as profound knowledge as a game designer is stuff I learned in my first year of GMing. It's not groundbreaking stuff. She's clearly being propped up by OSR youtubers and I think that needs to be pointed out a lot more.

I honestly had no idea who the author was, her race/sex/creed/color, or any other bit of info when i read through the quickstart.  The work speaks for itself.

She's not being "propped up" by any youtubers, she has people supporting her because the work is GOOD.  The buzz around the product is bridging the gap from 5E to OSR as it fits both playstyles as a happy medium. 

Furthermore, people are making videos because Shadowdark is "HOT" so their youtube click through and recommendations pop up even more. This is similar to the OGL scandal 2 months ago where all of a sudden you'd go on youtube and you'd be bombarded with people you never heard of talking about the OGL.  People want subscribeers because they want to make their channel grow.

Is there white knighting going on? I'm sure there is.  M'ladyism is strong in the Grognarisphere.  Hell she just donated $500 to a chairity that DM Masterpiece did in a live stream talking discussing her produt matching the viewers donations all for helping putting lights on in poor kids homes in Africa.

I implore anyone that wants to be skeptical to ask the questions directly to Kelsey as Pundit did and get your answers from her, she's approachable and amicable.  I did my homework as I'm not throwing more money at woke shitty hateful pronoun riddled kickstarter garbage regardless of quality and detail.  Shadowdark is interesting and deserves all of our attention to help make it better if it needs it and to help it succeed as the ingress to more OSR products.

Greetings!

Good stuff, Leopold! Yep, Shadowdark isn't being propped up by anyone. It's a good game, and solid. I watched that video you mentioned, Leopold. I also watched the 90-minute AMA session with Kelsey. It's very interesting watching HUNDREDS of gamers in chat talking about Shadowdark and so many QUESTIONS presented to Kelsey. All very professional, nice, interesting, and courteous. ALL game related.

No fucking woke BS, not even any politics, of any kind. Refreshing. But some people somehow, still want to pour gasoline on her. Oh, yeah, paying Questing Beast--that's part of marketing. Promoting your fucking product, because some people actually want to be successful and make money, right? *Laughing* Imagine that? She talked about that briefly. So what? Noone of the hundreds of gamers in the AMA GAVE A FUCK about her promoting her game any way she can, including through Questing Beast. Kelsey brought it up, very forthrightly.

Regardless of whether an individual finds that Shadowdark fits for them, Kelsey seems like a very nice, talented, and sincere gamer. A girl that is passionate and enthusiastic about 5E, but even moreso, the OSR, and creating and presenting a good game. Kelsey has been working on Shadowdark for the last three or four YEARS. She didn't just throw together some stupid "House Rules" in a fucking month, and shove it out the door. She's been slaving away at tis game for years. She had art work commissioned for it FOUR years ago. She's been smart, focused, and passionate. She's also crazy about promoting the OSR. Imagine that? Kelsey's great, and seems like a sweet person. I think that Shadowdark will be making a big impact, across the board. It's also amusing watching some people clutch their pearls about that.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 09, 2023, 09:24:21 AM
...No fucking woke BS, not even any politics, of any kind. Refreshing...

Shark,

Definitely. It's always been that way with The Arcane Library. Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.

For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.

As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.