Quote from: rkhigdon on March 01, 2023, 12:35:15 PM
I don't really find anything "off" about this.

While it would be incredibly funny if Shadowdark turned out to be the OSR version of the Theranos scandal, with Kelsey Dionne as Elizabeth Holmes, and Professor Dungeon Master as Henry Kissinger - I think that's extremely unlikely.

Quote from: Crusader X on March 01, 2023, 06:03:32 PM
I was initially excited for this game, but I ended up not backing it.  As an overall game, it seems solid, but not particularly spectacular.  And I don't like how the core rulebook in print is over $60.00, but it only features four PC classes.  If you want more classes, they're spread across multiple zines at $9.00 each.  No thank you.  The "complete" core book should have offered more, IMO.

I guess I'm just really not a fan of most high-priced "deluxe" kickstarter items.  A single-volume game would really have to knock my socks off for me to spend $60 - $100 on it, especially when there are so many similar games out there that are far less expensive but play just as well.  Something like Greg Gillespie's upcoming rules set, or Gavin Norman's Dolmenwood game may entice me to spend money on them, as each are promising very high production values.  But Shadowdark ended up not really impressing me as much as I thought it might.

Good point, especially I want to highlight the "deluxe". It's part of why I really dislike most kickstarters.

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread,  It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.

Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?

OK so it turns out these were 'sponsored reviews' https://youtu.be/fqO68ZjkNgA?t=43 (hat tip: Pundit) so I guess you were right to be suspicious. Looks like they were paid to review/promote the product.

Quote from: S'mon on March 02, 2023, 07:32:49 AM
OK so it turns out these were 'sponsored reviews' https://youtu.be/fqO68ZjkNgA?t=43 (hat tip: Pundit) so I guess you were right to be suspicious. Looks like they were paid to review/promote the product.

Questing Beast also listed them as a sponsor in his newsletter. So props to him for being open about his sponsors.

I don't think Dungeon Craft made any mention of sponsorship. So either he wasn't or didn't disclose that. Runehammer said his artwork was in the book, so there was at least a financial relationship there. House DM(another good review) specifically said he was not sponsored. He just seems to be a fan and has been running games/making content in the system for awhile. The kickstarter doesn't promote his patreon or other content as well.

Frankly the level of disclosure on Youtube is pretty shit. I recall seeing one Youtuber I know is regularly sponsored by Kobold Press giving glowing reviews to the Black Flag playtest. While I imagine he wasn't paid for that specific review, it's not like they're going to say it was bad when 30% of their other content gets money from the company.

I'm guessing that a few folks around here aren't too familiar with Kickstarter campaigns.  For better or worse, this campaign is using pretty much the prototypical model that any successful campaign  in the last decade has used to generate buzz and thus a strong start to the funding. 

Quote from: rkhigdon on March 02, 2023, 10:14:51 AM
For better or worse, this campaign is using pretty much the prototypical model that any successful campaign  in the last decade has used to generate buzz and thus a strong start to the funding.

Yeah, but it isn't typical for an OSR style game to pop this hard. Cities without Number did 367k and that was by a well established rpg author. Griffon's Saddlebag 2 did 1.2 mil, which is more at this level, but that's for 5e and a sequel to a well liked 5e add on. This game is probably going to finish stronger than Kibbles' Compendium(5e - 430k) and deep magic 2(5e/black flag - 860k). Typically it's a bit more normal for 5e projects to hit hard with everything else being luke warm.

So, if you discount "marketing" in that what's going on here as pretty typical of projects, then was it the OGL fiasco and now people are wanting to move away from 5e? Maybe everyone was pinning hopes on Black Flag, the first packet was a let down, and so everyone hopped onto this train? Or did this game just have the secret sauce for an OSR clone everyone else was missing?

Quote from: S'mon on March 02, 2023, 07:32:49 AM

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread,  It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.

Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?

OK so it turns out these were 'sponsored reviews' https://youtu.be/fqO68ZjkNgA?t=43 (hat tip: Pundit) so I guess you were right to be suspicious. Looks like they were paid to review/promote the product.

OK, so that's Questing Beast openly saying it is a sponsored review. My question is, how common is this compared to competitors? I would suspect that sponsored reviews and similar paid marketing are common for RPG Kickstarters, which naturally are trying to promote themselves as much as possible. Do other RPG Kickstarters typically rely on only unpaid word-of-mouth?

EDITED TO ADD: I missed rkhigdon's post. Thanks for that, rkhigdon - but I'm happy to hear from others as well.

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 11:53:25 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 01, 2023, 10:12:35 AM

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:25:00 AM
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy?  Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.

Women designers are rare. If this gets extra attention because of that, so what? What would you have done in her shoes? Hired the 45 year old fat white guy to do all your promotion? 

Ha ha ha.  No, I'm not complaining. It's just a fact of life. Guys like girls.

...

The game designer would not be nearly as 'popular' if she wasn't a girl.

That is also not her fault. It is what it is.

She seems to have cleverly leveraged her contacts, and working relationships to give her KS a big boost amongst her target demo.

Can't hate on the hustle.

The only thing that really twigged for me was that her YTube channel was exclusively 5e adventure content for years (which explains the subscriber count), and then a month ago; boom, suddenly an OSR game designer...

One can make of that what they will.

After seeing the previews - it's at best a pdf purchase to crib for ideas, the game is just a little too much on the rules-lite side for me.

Looks like this guy got caught on the hype train hard.

I backed it because it sounded pretty cool. I went for the full digital for 55 bucks.

I'm not sure I'm down with the whole 'real time' aspect, but I like the concept of creating more urgency in a game for that type of environment.

Reminds me of a slicker version of C&C. Why not watch her own vid, it runs through a lot of the game's concepts.

And I can't blame her for trying to promote her game. Who doesn't do that?? I've seen people pay for reviews before, so as long as they mention it I don't mind. Plus, who buys a book on one review? I usually check out a couple of vids (if available) or some blogs.

Quote from: zer0th on March 02, 2023, 05:56:16 PM
Looks like this guy got caught on the hype train hard.

Didn't see this. To be fair Aaron's got good pretty good taste. Seems like a good bloke too.

Greetings!

I don't care if she has used *sponsored reviews* or not. She explained that only Questing Beast was sponsored--because that is a standard practice that he insists for everyone dealing with him. Others have also explained that making use of sponsored reviews for Kickstarters as part of the marketing program is an industry *STANDARD*. So, I'm not seeing what the big deal is about.

Secondly, as also pointed out--Dungeoncraft, Questing Beast, and Arcane Library all KNOW EACH OTHER. THEY ARE FRIENDS WITH EACH OTHER. It isn't surprising that they would be interested in helping each other any way that they can. I would hope that MY FRIENDS would eagerly help to promote me or my products as well.

Thirdly, the Kickstarter and preview materials adequately demonstrate what Shadowdark is about, and what the game book embraces. Pretty straightforward. There's  nothing nefarious or malicious going on here. Mechanically and stylistically, Shadowdark uses many systems and ideas pioneered and developed before, but puts a fresh spin on them. Then, there is some new takes on how to do things, and how it is all presented. Just like any game designer anywhere, ever. Shadowdark seems like a pretty good game, simple, fast, and fun, while also being anchored in OSR concepts. An added benefit is Shadowdark also embraces some "New School"/5E elements and blends them together in a good way.

Relatively new DM's, game designers, and so on in the OSR should be *applauded* encouraged, and supported. Such enthusiasm, innovation and efforts are how the hobby remains strong--and independent from WOTC.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 02, 2023, 06:59:10 PM
Greetings!

I don't care if she has used *sponsored reviews* or not. She explained that only Questing Beast was sponsored--because that is a standard practice that he insists for everyone dealing with him. Others have also explained that making use of sponsored reviews for Kickstarters as part of the marketing program is an industry *STANDARD*. So, I'm not seeing what the big deal is about.

Secondly, as also pointed out--Dungeoncraft, Questing Beast, and Arcane Library all KNOW EACH OTHER. THEY ARE FRIENDS WITH EACH OTHER. It isn't surprising that they would be interested in helping each other any way that they can. I would hope that MY FRIENDS would eagerly help to promote me or my products as well.

Thirdly, the Kickstarter and preview materials adequately demonstrate what Shadowdark is about, and what the game book embraces. Pretty straightforward. There's  nothing nefarious or malicious going on here. Mechanically and stylistically, Shadowdark uses many systems and ideas pioneered and developed before, but puts a fresh spin on them. Then, there is some new takes on how to do things, and how it is all presented. Just like any game designer anywhere, ever. Shadowdark seems like a pretty good game, simple, fast, and fun, while also being anchored in OSR concepts. An added benefit is Shadowdark also embraces some "New School"/5E elements and blends them together in a good way.

Relatively new DM's, game designers, and so on in the OSR should be *applauded* encouraged, and supported. Such enthusiasm, innovation and efforts are how the hobby remains strong--and independent from WOTC.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That sums it up very well, S.

R.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 02, 2023, 07:01:47 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 02, 2023, 06:59:10 PM
Greetings!

I don't care if she has used *sponsored reviews* or not. She explained that only Questing Beast was sponsored--because that is a standard practice that he insists for everyone dealing with him. Others have also explained that making use of sponsored reviews for Kickstarters as part of the marketing program is an industry *STANDARD*. So, I'm not seeing what the big deal is about.

Secondly, as also pointed out--Dungeoncraft, Questing Beast, and Arcane Library all KNOW EACH OTHER. THEY ARE FRIENDS WITH EACH OTHER. It isn't surprising that they would be interested in helping each other any way that they can. I would hope that MY FRIENDS would eagerly help to promote me or my products as well.

Thirdly, the Kickstarter and preview materials adequately demonstrate what Shadowdark is about, and what the game book embraces. Pretty straightforward. There's  nothing nefarious or malicious going on here. Mechanically and stylistically, Shadowdark uses many systems and ideas pioneered and developed before, but puts a fresh spin on them. Then, there is some new takes on how to do things, and how it is all presented. Just like any game designer anywhere, ever. Shadowdark seems like a pretty good game, simple, fast, and fun, while also being anchored in OSR concepts. An added benefit is Shadowdark also embraces some "New School"/5E elements and blends them together in a good way.

Relatively new DM's, game designers, and so on in the OSR should be *applauded* encouraged, and supported. Such enthusiasm, innovation and efforts are how the hobby remains strong--and independent from WOTC.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That sums it up very well, S.

R.

Greetings!

Thank you, Rob! I'm also going to put my money where my mouth is, and support the Kickstarter. I'm something of completionist kind of guy, so I will back the $120 dollar deluxe package thingy. I want the uber hardcover, the GM screen, and the supplemental magazine expansions. Evidently, they also include additional classes and rule expansions.

I also know that she's been making 5E adventures for a good number of years now, so she's not a novice. In addition, I've also followed Questing Beast and Dungeoncraft for years now. They are both consistent, and generally solid in their analysis, reviews, and game design preferences. Aaron The Pedantic, too, is definitely on the train. *Laughing* I hope that Shadowdark will be awesome. So far, it is looking to be very strong as a game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 02, 2023, 07:17:03 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 02, 2023, 07:01:47 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 02, 2023, 06:59:10 PM
Greetings!

I don't care if she has used *sponsored reviews* or not. She explained that only Questing Beast was sponsored--because that is a standard practice that he insists for everyone dealing with him. Others have also explained that making use of sponsored reviews for Kickstarters as part of the marketing program is an industry *STANDARD*. So, I'm not seeing what the big deal is about.

Secondly, as also pointed out--Dungeoncraft, Questing Beast, and Arcane Library all KNOW EACH OTHER. THEY ARE FRIENDS WITH EACH OTHER. It isn't surprising that they would be interested in helping each other any way that they can. I would hope that MY FRIENDS would eagerly help to promote me or my products as well.

Thirdly, the Kickstarter and preview materials adequately demonstrate what Shadowdark is about, and what the game book embraces. Pretty straightforward. There's  nothing nefarious or malicious going on here. Mechanically and stylistically, Shadowdark uses many systems and ideas pioneered and developed before, but puts a fresh spin on them. Then, there is some new takes on how to do things, and how it is all presented. Just like any game designer anywhere, ever. Shadowdark seems like a pretty good game, simple, fast, and fun, while also being anchored in OSR concepts. An added benefit is Shadowdark also embraces some "New School"/5E elements and blends them together in a good way.

Relatively new DM's, game designers, and so on in the OSR should be *applauded* encouraged, and supported. Such enthusiasm, innovation and efforts are how the hobby remains strong--and independent from WOTC.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That sums it up very well, S.

R.

Greetings!

Thank you, Rob! I'm also going to put my money where my mouth is, and support the Kickstarter. I'm something of completionist kind of guy, so I will back the $120 dollar deluxe package thingy. I want the uber hardcover, the GM screen, and the supplemental magazine expansions. Evidently, they also include additional classes and rule expansions.

I also know that she's been making 5E adventures for a good number of years now, so she's not a novice. In addition, I've also followed Questing Beast and Dungeoncraft for years now. They are both consistent, and generally solid in their analysis, reviews, and game design preferences. Aaron The Pedantic, too, is definitely on the train. *Laughing* I hope that Shadowdark will be awesome. So far, it is looking to be very strong as a game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Fair play, man.
I'm the same I'm a bit of a completionist too. I wanted to have everything but in a digital format so I thought 55 bucks was a good deal. But the hardcover looks very cool and with it being stitched it'll stay open on the table. So 120 for the lot is a good deal as well considering what you get (in a physical form).

Yeah, even beyond the whole Kickstarter thing, she knows what she's doing. I checked out some of her design concepts vids on her youtube channel and it's all good solid advice. She had one specifically about designing a horror one-shot in 5e and I liked her thought process and ideas on the subject.

I think Ben is an honest broker too and if he didn't think it was going to be good, I doubt he'd even review, especially given that they are mates, etc. But he sounded pretty positive overall. DM Bloodworth did an overview as well and I respect his opinion.

I don't think it's going to be the best thing since sliced bread, but what is? overall it sounds slick and elegant so far - Let's hope it's as good as everyone says it is.

But from everything I've seen and read - so far so good!

Cheers,

R.