Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 01, 2023, 08:41:29 AM

I'm also a fan of any system that ditches Vancian magic, the dumbest magic system written.  Ever.  Yup, I said it.  I think magical amnesia is bat-shit insane.  Thankfully Shadowdark is using a skill check to cast magic.  That's much better.

In case you weren't aware of this little nugget:  You asserting the same things over and over don't make them true.  Your brain might think so, but that's because you are buying your own sales job. Just saying.

What you like an don't like is fine.  Everyone has that.  If you want to understand how and why systems do or don't work--and more importantly, exactly where they stop working when they partially work--you need some attempt to separate your personal preferences out of the mix in the criticism.

It looks legit to me. I like most of the rules tweaks and the art looks great. Always on initiative seems board-gamey, but maybe it would play well? If it makes time-keeping easier and gets quieter players more involved, it could be a win. Torches lasting 1 hour in real time is clever and would help build tension. I'm tempted to pick it up.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 28, 2023, 11:25:04 PM
There are no racial stats and ancestry rather than race.  To me, that's a sign of woke.  Maybe she's trying to avoid twitter rage or maybe she's woke.  But those are two things I saw in a review that made me go NOPE.  Pro-tip, if you want to get the old school players and not use race, then use demi-humans.

There is a total lack of virtue signaling or squawking about representation/diversity on the KS page. They could have exploited a lot of woke angles but chose not to. Lack of "race" is not the smoking gun you think it is.

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:25:00 AM
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy?  Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.

Women designers are rare. If this gets extra attention because of that, so what? What would you have done in her shoes? Hired the 45 year old fat white guy to do all your promotion? 

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread,  It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.

Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?

Not just you Tasty. I've seen the rumblings the past couple of days as well and that same "something is off" gut feeling came to me as well. Then when I saw the race to ancestry thing as well, not a deal breaker, but it just was another pin prick of nah, I really don't need this game. The whole torch burning for an hour in real time that these youtubers seem to thing is gold is just stupid. No race....er ancestries have darkvision thing I don't particularly care for either.

No hate (I only reserve that for special people/occasions in rpgs), I just don't think this is that big of a deal. There used to be a term in the hobby back in the day called a fantasy heartbreaker, has that fallen out of popular usage?

Quote from: Brand55 on February 28, 2023, 10:13:10 PM
I'd heard of it and was actually planning to back the Kickstarter, but a few weeks ago she changed the preview documents to switch from using "race" to "ancestry." I hate that. I have more books than I'll ever use and wouldn't run the game RAW, anyway, so passing on it was an easy decision. All the luck to her but her game isn't for me.

....

Yeah, agreed. The whole race to ancestry thing isn't a deal breaker, but it's just another of those things that is completely unnecessary. An I wouldn't run it RAW either. It's just an easy pass like you said.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 01, 2023, 08:27:40 AM
I'm probably alone in this, but the whole Kickstarter business model rubs me up the wrong way. I had thought the point of Kickstarter was to allow creators who don't have the financing to finish their projects to crowdsource investment so that they can bring it to market. What it's turned into is a way of selling over-priced "limited editions" to collectors.

Every one of these videos makes a point of the fact that the book is entirely complete, illustrated, and ready for publication (if not already printed). So why do they need $300,000 in "backing"? If they want this to be a game with a future, where people actually play it, it develops a community, gets supplements written for it, etc. then why is it $60 for the most basic hard copy of the core rulebook? It looks to me like a get-rich-quick scheme. Selling a fancy looking book which they don't expect anyone to actually play, and using "get it now while the campaign is live" to rush people so they don't consider the value proposition of what they're buying.

But maybe this is just the subject I tend to be paranoid on.

Gawd, I feel this. I hate kickstarters, with the caveat I have backed some creators like Kevin Crawford (but I like the way he runs his kickstarters - no frills).

Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 01, 2023, 08:41:29 AM
The fact she has done work in module writing as a full time career, and has the attention of Questing Beast/Ben Milton, Professor Dungeon Craft, and Hankerin Furnale is all good.  This isn't some sketchy product. 

But, the proof is if the game is any good.  It's supposed to be half 5E, half OSR.  That's a mix I think we need more of.  There are parts of 5E that are good. 

I'm also a fan of any system that ditches Vancian magic, the dumbest magic system written.  Ever.  Yup, I said it.  I think magical amnesia is bat-shit insane.  Thankfully Shadowdark is using a skill check to cast magic.  That's much better.

Good points. But when I saw the first vidya on the magic I'm like, this is DCC, I already have this. Plus there's a funnel type thing, which I again already have.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 01, 2023, 10:14:05 AM
The whole torch burning for an hour in real time that these youtubers seem to thing is gold is just stupid. No race....er ancestries have darkvision thing I don't particularly care for either.

I appreciate the attempt to grapple with the issue of making light sources interesting again, which is what it comes off as to me.  The only thing I don't like about it is that if I ever publish, people will think I copied that idea from Shadowdark, when in fact I've had no races with night vision of any kind  (bar one with mild adjustment for the standard poor light penalties) since the start of my testing over a year ago.  Granted, it's a niche taste.  But if that's the way you want to go, it's not a bad option.

Torches lasting a hour real time is clever, but it's also, I think, a bit too clever.  It's trying to have resources but not track them, and that's tricky.  Not saying it can't work, but you've got to do more than just throw in a few clever bones to make it work.

Why do you not like the absence of darkvision?  Is there something particularly compelling about it that you see as important to the game?  Curious about that, since I'm obviously going diametrically against it.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 01, 2023, 10:24:18 AM
....
Why do you not like the absence of darkvision?  Is there something particularly compelling about it that you see as important to the game?  Curious about that, since I'm obviously going diametrically against it.

Yeah, that came off harsher than I meant really. So I'm firmly in the archetype camp for my 'D&D' style games.

Human can go max level in any class. Demihumans can't. I know loads of people always hated the level/class racial restrictions but I like 'em. And part of the reasons are the abilities of demihumans. I have just always liked it and never had the desire to change that.

I know my preference isn't the same as everyone so take it with the ol grain of salt.

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?

The massive launch set off some "this smells weird" alarms for me as well and a few others have asked in other forums if the project was pumped by heavy donations. But the tier levels are capped at a pretty low amount and the math, when I did it last, worked out to being 5k shy of 205k donated. So it wasn't as if some people were donating 10k at a $100 level to pump the project. There has been some key paid sponsoring of the project, Questing Beast's latest newsletter was sponsored. So I guess it is possible a lot of $$ was sent to Youtubers to pump the project without disclosing sponsorship. But it feels more like the author of the project is just a rabid RPG fangirl/5e module author who's gone to a lot of conventions and put a lot of effort into making contacts with writers/influencers/etc. And they're supporting her now.

The game itself also seems to hit a lot of wants. No darkvision, lighting is important, easy character gen, death doesn't happen immediately at 0 but is still pretty harsh(and there are more mods to vary this). Layout and art is easy on the eyes and it seems easy/fast to run. It also seems to be a generic RPG, not tied to a specific setting, with a solid list of all the old classic creatures, magic items and spells. XP for wealth along with solid carousing rules. So, just an easy game in the OSR style but probably more in line with modern player expectations.

I will say that while the quickstart looked decent, there were some red flags for me. One wizard advancement choice was "+2 to int or +1 to spellcasting", but +2 to int gives you +1 in spellcasting rolls(how was this not caught/fixed in beta?). Stabilizing a dying character is a DC 15 Int roll... so wizards, not clerics, are best at stabilizing. I'm also not sure that the math of the game will hold up well. Casting a level 5 spell is only 20% harder than casting a level 1 one and saving throws for a level 12 dragon are maybe 15-20% better than for a level 1 orc.

It feels like a decent, easy to play beer and pretzels game that'll work for your home brew pretty easily, but to me it doesn't feel like a system that'll hold up to years of running it.

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 01, 2023, 10:12:35 AM

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:25:00 AM
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy?  Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.

Women designers are rare. If this gets extra attention because of that, so what? What would you have done in her shoes? Hired the 45 year old fat white guy to do all your promotion? 

Ha ha ha.  No, I'm not complaining. It's just a fact of life. Guys like girls.

Edit: I don't plan to pick it up myself, I'm focused on Dragonbane for my new not-D&D RPG. But certainly good luck to her.

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 11:53:25 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 01, 2023, 10:12:35 AM

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:25:00 AM
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy?  Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.

Women designers are rare. If this gets extra attention because of that, so what? What would you have done in her shoes? Hired the 45 year old fat white guy to do all your promotion? 

Ha ha ha.  No, I'm not complaining. It's just a fact of life. Guys like girls.

Edit: I don't plan to pick it up myself, I'm focused on Dragonbane for my new not-D&D RPG. But certainly good luck to her.

Yep, a fact as old as time! I might pick it up, but I have too many yet-to-be-played games on the shelf and a few on order, so probably not. I root for any game that looks half decent in the hopes that it takes market share away from the big games because we need more options IRL. I'd love to walk into a FLGS and see this (or similar game) being played rather than yet another table of 5e.

I don't really find anything "off" about this.  I do see that Arcane Library has done some good research on how to launch a successful Kickstarter, and the results show they pretty much nailed it. 

As far as the product itself goes, I liked the preview well enough that we discussed possibly running some sessions to see if it was worthwhile to switch.  Now (as discussed in another thread) we ended up switching to EZD6 so I probably don't have need to get Shadowdark, but I'll likely back it at a PDF level so I can mine it for ideas.

Also, if anybody is interested in a little more background, she has a number of videos on YT that cover the game and it's origin.  While it's obvious from some of the content that she is on the progressive side, I don't feel like that attitude has crept into the product much at all.

https://youtu.be/amtLUeKTbW0

I backed it after watching a few of the videos and perusing the quick start. Looks like a solid melding of OSE and DCC, with some 5e bits chucked in and some unique bits of her own. I've run The Secrets of Skyhorn Lighthouse, which was an excellent adventure, and read a couple of others from her. She's very legit when it comes to adventure design. Here are a few of her adventures reviewed by Bryce Lynch:

https://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?s=kelsey

I was initially excited for this game, but I ended up not backing it.  As an overall game, it seems solid, but not particularly spectacular.  And I don't like how the core rulebook in print is over $60.00, but it only features four PC classes.  If you want more classes, they're spread across multiple zines at $9.00 each.  No thank you.  The "complete" core book should have offered more, IMO.

I guess I'm just really not a fan of most high-priced "deluxe" kickstarter items.  A single-volume game would really have to knock my socks off for me to spend $60 - $100 on it, especially when there are so many similar games out there that are far less expensive but play just as well.  Something like Greg Gillespie's upcoming rules set, or Gavin Norman's Dolmenwood game may entice me to spend money on them, as each are promising very high production values.  But Shadowdark ended up not really impressing me as much as I thought it might.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 01, 2023, 10:21:22 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 01, 2023, 08:41:29 AM
The fact she has done work in module writing as a full time career, and has the attention of Questing Beast/Ben Milton, Professor Dungeon Craft, and Hankerin Furnale is all good.  This isn't some sketchy product. 

But, the proof is if the game is any good.  It's supposed to be half 5E, half OSR.  That's a mix I think we need more of.  There are parts of 5E that are good. 

I'm also a fan of any system that ditches Vancian magic, the dumbest magic system written.  Ever.  Yup, I said it.  I think magical amnesia is bat-shit insane.  Thankfully Shadowdark is using a skill check to cast magic.  That's much better.

Good points. But when I saw the first vidya on the magic I'm like, this is DCC, I already have this. Plus there's a funnel type thing, which I again already have.

I noticed that as well.  It's as if the OSR scene is full of nearly identical copycats of each other.  Many are even free.

Her game sounds good.   But the problem I see is that a lot of other games available right now sound similar.  I'm not hearing anything that's going to set it apart from the huge crowd of D&D Heartbreakers (an actual term now).   So far it's something to do with it being 5E-ish in design, skill checks for casting magic, and lots of good random tables. 

So this is a wait and see situation for my money.

I wish her luck.