So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.
Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.
Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?
Greetings!
Yes, Tasty Wind, I also saw both the videos by Questing Beast and Dungeon Craft. I've also seen a few of Kelsey's videos in the past. I know many people like to proclaim how our hobby is this tiny, niche thing--but in reality, I think it is a lot *bigger* in scope than many people realize or want to acknowledge. There are a good number of people--successful writers and game designers--that exist and thrive throughout the RPG hobby community. Some of the larger, more prominent luminaries, you have likely heard of. However, there seems to be many such successful and interesting people that make contributions to our RPG hobby that you and I--and many others--can literally go YEARS and never hear about.
I think Kelsey and Shadowdark are one of these examples, now coming to light. We have a number of people here on these boards that are similar, whether Eric Diaz, Melan, Alexander Macris, Venger. Many people don't know who Pundit is, either, or what he has contributed. There are surely many more as well.
In my estimation, it's a very cool thing. I hope more get involved, and get busy! Forget the more famous "RPG stars" of the past--they were just the front runners pushed and promoted by WOTC or other prominent game companies. With the advent of the OSR especially, there are more and more outstanding authors, game designers, DM's, coming to the front!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'd heard of it and was actually planning to back the Kickstarter, but a few weeks ago she changed the preview documents to switch from using "race" to "ancestry." I hate that. I have more books than I'll ever use and wouldn't run the game RAW, anyway, so passing on it was an easy decision. All the luck to her but her game isn't for me.
As for the rest, I think Shark hit the nail on the head. There are a lot of gamers out there, and most of them don't post a lot online though they do follow gaming news on places like YouTube or Twitter. Given how much push Shadowdark has gotten from multiple sources, I can readily believe that it's gonna pull in very respectable numbers. It also helps that it's being marketed to both the 5e and OSR crowds.
Plus, Kelsey isn't some nobody publishing her first work. She's put out quite a few adventures in the past and been able to work up her reputation. I have no doubt that quite a lot of people who bought her adventures at DTRPG got messages letting them know all about her Kickstarter.
Just saw it today on Kickstarter. The B&W art looks fantastic, but the digest size is a minus. I love the "only 4 classes" and "no darkvision" but "no skills" is a deal breaker for me. The project on the whole looked fun and inspired.
Shadowdark got a bit of YouTube buzz when the Quickstart rules dropped a while ago. It then got a lot more buzz a few weeks ago, when Kelsey Dionne was one of the first people to announce she was stripping the OGL out and making her own OGL. She was able to position her company as one of the front line warriors in the D&D culture war, right before the game was scheduled to launch.
As to professor DM, Questing Beast et al, it seems like she was just very smart about getting review copies out to the right people, and buttering them up to time their video releases for maximum effect. It seems to me that she's just a very adept businesswoman.
As far as the game itself goes, I bought into the hype for about ten minutes back when the Quickstart rules dropped and then cooled pretty rapidly. I'll have to look at it more, but I would expect it to be another in what has become an endless list of functionally interchangeable OSR games.
EDIT: I'm watching Hankerin Furnale's video on it now, and it turns out they're not only personal friends, but he did some of the art for the book. So him giving it a rave review is easily enough explained. Furnale and Professor DM are personal friends as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Milton is in that mix, so the apparent circle jerk could just be a case of friends sticking up for each other.
There are no racial stats and ancestry rather than race. To me, that's a sign of woke. Maybe she's trying to avoid twitter rage or maybe she's woke. But those are two things I saw in a review that made me go NOPE. Pro-tip, if you want to get the old school players and not use race, then use demi-humans.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.
Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?
She seems legit. Been around for a while, young enough to know how to do Social Media innately plus IT, so the tech is no problem. Her game has enough old school things about it to send snowflakes to their closest preschool for therapy, so if she incorporates a couple of new school things, whatever. I'd have to read it to see how "modern" it is.
Is she getting more notice because she's an actual woman in this industry? When will that not be true?
Quote from: crkrueger on March 01, 2023, 12:44:03 AM
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.
Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?
She seems legit. Been around for a while, young enough to know how to do Social Media innately plus IT, so the tech is no problem. Her game has enough old school things about it to send snowflakes to their closest preschool for therapy, so if she incorporates a couple of new school things, whatever. I'd have to read it to see how "modern" it is.
Is she getting more notice because she's an actual woman in this industry? When will that not be true?
More like she's getting noticed for the cover art and the interior art of the book. Its mostly 1E style.
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy? ??? Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.
Never heard of it, and the Ancestry thing isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me (particularly if you can mix-and-match genetics and culture, so you can do separate human ethnicities with differing skills and humans-raised-by-dwarves or whatever). I'd have to investigate those quick-start rules, but as ForgottenF has mentioned, if it just brings a new presentation to the OSR, I already have ACKS, L&D, S&W, For Gold and Glory, and perhaps others I am not recalling immediately.
I'm probably alone in this, but the whole Kickstarter business model rubs me up the wrong way. I had thought the point of Kickstarter was to allow creators who don't have the financing to finish their projects to crowdsource investment so that they can bring it to market. What it's turned into is a way of selling over-priced "limited editions" to collectors.
Every one of these videos makes a point of the fact that the book is entirely complete, illustrated, and ready for publication (if not already printed). So why do they need $300,000 in "backing"? If they want this to be a game with a future, where people actually play it, it develops a community, gets supplements written for it, etc. then why is it $60 for the most basic hard copy of the core rulebook? It looks to me like a get-rich-quick scheme. Selling a fancy looking book which they don't expect anyone to actually play, and using "get it now while the campaign is live" to rush people so they don't consider the value proposition of what they're buying.
But maybe this is just the subject I tend to be paranoid on.
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 01, 2023, 08:27:40 AM
Every one of these videos makes a point of the fact that the book is entirely complete, illustrated, and ready for publication (if not already printed). So why do they need $300,000 in "backing"? If they want this to be a game with a future, where people actually play it, it develops a community, gets supplements written for it, etc. then why is it $60 for the most basic hard copy of the core rulebook? It looks to me like a get-rich-quick scheme. Selling a fancy looking book, which they don't expect anyone to actually play, and using "get it now while the campaign is live" to rush people so they don't consider the value proposition of what they're buying.
I'm not sure I buy it 100%, but there is a theory on business that certainly tracks with many notable successes: The way to succeed is either go all out, fast, and grab some market share as fast as you can. Or, go slow and make sure you build quality, and get all the details rights, and then be an "overnight" success in 10 years. It's trying to run near the middle that nearly always leads to failure--especially if the plan is market one way and develop another. The slow way is safer, but it is true that if you see a narrow window to grab market share, you better jump on it before it closes.
Now, I'm not one to buy into the appeal of the go fast--in games or any other products. They tend to have flaws that they'll fix later in version 2 or 3, once the market share is secured and money is flowing. I'm just not the "early adopter" type, and am quite happy to wait for the bugs to be found. Others, not so much. They like being in on the ground floor, while the thing is still raw.
The fact she has done work in module writing as a full time career, and has the attention of Questing Beast/Ben Milton, Professor Dungeon Craft, and Hankerin Furnale is all good. This isn't some sketchy product.
But, the proof is if the game is any good. It's supposed to be half 5E, half OSR. That's a mix I think we need more of. There are parts of 5E that are good.
I'm also a fan of any system that ditches Vancian magic, the dumbest magic system written. Ever. Yup, I said it. I think magical amnesia is bat-shit insane. Thankfully Shadowdark is using a skill check to cast magic. That's much better.
I never had a problem with "Race" as a descriptor, even though it did always stick in my craw a bit that it meant "Species".
Personally, I'm kind of sold on what Kobold Press' Black Flag is doing.
Lineage for the genetic stuff.
Heritage for the cultural stuff.
It splits along the actual Genetics/Culture or Nature/Nurture divide and makes it easy to have those "Born as X, Raised as Y" characters, plus the two words aren't anachronistic and they go well together.
Lineage and Heritage, I hope that one gets around. Ancestry is too wonky (and too obviously tryhard).
BTW, there's a Free QuickStart Kit linked on The Arcane Library site. Two 68 page books.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 01, 2023, 08:41:29 AM
I'm also a fan of any system that ditches Vancian magic, the dumbest magic system written. Ever. Yup, I said it. I think magical amnesia is bat-shit insane. Thankfully Shadowdark is using a skill check to cast magic. That's much better.
In case you weren't aware of this little nugget: You asserting the same things over and over don't make them true. Your brain might think so, but that's because you are buying your own sales job. Just saying.
What you like an don't like is fine. Everyone has that. If you want to understand how and why systems do or don't work--and more importantly, exactly where they stop working when they partially work--you need some attempt to separate your personal preferences out of the mix in the criticism.
It looks legit to me. I like most of the rules tweaks and the art looks great. Always on initiative seems board-gamey, but maybe it would play well? If it makes time-keeping easier and gets quieter players more involved, it could be a win. Torches lasting 1 hour in real time is clever and would help build tension. I'm tempted to pick it up.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 28, 2023, 11:25:04 PM
There are no racial stats and ancestry rather than race. To me, that's a sign of woke. Maybe she's trying to avoid twitter rage or maybe she's woke. But those are two things I saw in a review that made me go NOPE. Pro-tip, if you want to get the old school players and not use race, then use demi-humans.
There is a total lack of virtue signaling or squawking about representation/diversity on the KS page. They could have exploited a lot of woke angles but chose not to. Lack of "race" is not the smoking gun you think it is.
Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:25:00 AM
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy? ??? Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.
Women designers are rare. If this gets extra attention because of that, so what? What would you have done in her shoes? Hired the 45 year old fat white guy to do all your promotion? ;)
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.
Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?
Not just you Tasty. I've seen the rumblings the past couple of days as well and that same "something is off" gut feeling came to me as well. Then when I saw the race to ancestry thing as well, not a deal breaker, but it just was another pin prick of nah, I really don't need this game. The whole torch burning for an hour in real time that these youtubers seem to thing is gold is just stupid. No race....er ancestries have darkvision thing I don't particularly care for either.
No hate (I only reserve that for special people/occasions in rpgs), I just don't think this is that big of a deal. There used to be a term in the hobby back in the day called a fantasy heartbreaker, has that fallen out of popular usage?
Quote from: Brand55 on February 28, 2023, 10:13:10 PM
I'd heard of it and was actually planning to back the Kickstarter, but a few weeks ago she changed the preview documents to switch from using "race" to "ancestry." I hate that. I have more books than I'll ever use and wouldn't run the game RAW, anyway, so passing on it was an easy decision. All the luck to her but her game isn't for me.
....
Yeah, agreed. The whole race to ancestry thing isn't a deal breaker, but it's just another of those things that is completely unnecessary. An I wouldn't run it RAW either. It's just an easy pass like you said.
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 01, 2023, 08:27:40 AM
I'm probably alone in this, but the whole Kickstarter business model rubs me up the wrong way. I had thought the point of Kickstarter was to allow creators who don't have the financing to finish their projects to crowdsource investment so that they can bring it to market. What it's turned into is a way of selling over-priced "limited editions" to collectors.
Every one of these videos makes a point of the fact that the book is entirely complete, illustrated, and ready for publication (if not already printed). So why do they need $300,000 in "backing"? If they want this to be a game with a future, where people actually play it, it develops a community, gets supplements written for it, etc. then why is it $60 for the most basic hard copy of the core rulebook? It looks to me like a get-rich-quick scheme. Selling a fancy looking book which they don't expect anyone to actually play, and using "get it now while the campaign is live" to rush people so they don't consider the value proposition of what they're buying.
But maybe this is just the subject I tend to be paranoid on.
Gawd, I feel this. I hate kickstarters, with the caveat I have backed some creators like Kevin Crawford (but I like the way he runs his kickstarters - no frills).
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 01, 2023, 08:41:29 AM
The fact she has done work in module writing as a full time career, and has the attention of Questing Beast/Ben Milton, Professor Dungeon Craft, and Hankerin Furnale is all good. This isn't some sketchy product.
But, the proof is if the game is any good. It's supposed to be half 5E, half OSR. That's a mix I think we need more of. There are parts of 5E that are good.
I'm also a fan of any system that ditches Vancian magic, the dumbest magic system written. Ever. Yup, I said it. I think magical amnesia is bat-shit insane. Thankfully Shadowdark is using a skill check to cast magic. That's much better.
Good points. But when I saw the first vidya on the magic I'm like, this is DCC, I already have this. Plus there's a funnel type thing, which I again already have.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 01, 2023, 10:14:05 AM
The whole torch burning for an hour in real time that these youtubers seem to thing is gold is just stupid. No race....er ancestries have darkvision thing I don't particularly care for either.
I appreciate the attempt to grapple with the issue of making light sources interesting again, which is what it comes off as to me. The only thing I don't like about it is that if I ever publish, people will think I copied that idea from Shadowdark, when in fact I've had no races with night vision of any kind (bar one with mild adjustment for the standard poor light penalties) since the start of my testing over a year ago. Granted, it's a niche taste. But if that's the way you want to go, it's not a bad option.
Torches lasting a hour real time is clever, but it's also, I think, a bit too clever. It's trying to have resources but not track them, and that's tricky. Not saying it can't work, but you've got to do more than just throw in a few clever bones to make it work.
Why do you not like the absence of darkvision? Is there something particularly compelling about it that you see as important to the game? Curious about that, since I'm obviously going diametrically against it.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 01, 2023, 10:24:18 AM
....
Why do you not like the absence of darkvision? Is there something particularly compelling about it that you see as important to the game? Curious about that, since I'm obviously going diametrically against it.
Yeah, that came off harsher than I meant really. So I'm firmly in the archetype camp for my 'D&D' style games.
Human can go max level in any class. Demihumans can't. I know loads of people always hated the level/class racial restrictions but I like 'em. And part of the reasons are the abilities of demihumans. I have just always liked it and never had the desire to change that.
I know my preference isn't the same as everyone so take it with the ol grain of salt.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?
The massive launch set off some "this smells weird" alarms for me as well and a few others have asked in other forums if the project was pumped by heavy donations. But the tier levels are capped at a pretty low amount and the math, when I did it last, worked out to being 5k shy of 205k donated. So it wasn't as if some people were donating 10k at a $100 level to pump the project. There has been some key paid sponsoring of the project, Questing Beast's latest newsletter was sponsored. So I guess it is possible a lot of $$ was sent to Youtubers to pump the project without disclosing sponsorship. But it feels more like the author of the project is just a rabid RPG fangirl/5e module author who's gone to a lot of conventions and put a lot of effort into making contacts with writers/influencers/etc. And they're supporting her now.
The game itself also seems to hit a lot of wants. No darkvision, lighting is important, easy character gen, death doesn't happen immediately at 0 but is still pretty harsh(and there are more mods to vary this). Layout and art is easy on the eyes and it seems easy/fast to run. It also seems to be a generic RPG, not tied to a specific setting, with a solid list of all the old classic creatures, magic items and spells. XP for wealth along with solid carousing rules. So, just an easy game in the OSR style but probably more in line with modern player expectations.
I will say that while the quickstart looked decent, there were some red flags for me. One wizard advancement choice was "+2 to int or +1 to spellcasting", but +2 to int gives you +1 in spellcasting rolls(how was this not caught/fixed in beta?). Stabilizing a dying character is a DC 15 Int roll... so wizards, not clerics, are best at stabilizing. I'm also not sure that the math of the game will hold up well. Casting a level 5 spell is only 20% harder than casting a level 1 one and saving throws for a level 12 dragon are maybe 15-20% better than for a level 1 orc.
It feels like a decent, easy to play beer and pretzels game that'll work for your home brew pretty easily, but to me it doesn't feel like a system that'll hold up to years of running it.
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 01, 2023, 10:12:35 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:25:00 AM
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy? ??? Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.
Women designers are rare. If this gets extra attention because of that, so what? What would you have done in her shoes? Hired the 45 year old fat white guy to do all your promotion? ;)
Ha ha ha. ;D No, I'm not complaining. It's just a fact of life. Guys like girls.
Edit: I don't plan to pick it up myself, I'm focused on Dragonbane for my new not-D&D RPG. But certainly good luck to her.
Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 11:53:25 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 01, 2023, 10:12:35 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:25:00 AM
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy? ??? Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.
Women designers are rare. If this gets extra attention because of that, so what? What would you have done in her shoes? Hired the 45 year old fat white guy to do all your promotion? ;)
Ha ha ha. ;D No, I'm not complaining. It's just a fact of life. Guys like girls.
Edit: I don't plan to pick it up myself, I'm focused on Dragonbane for my new not-D&D RPG. But certainly good luck to her.
Yep, a fact as old as time! I might pick it up, but I have too many yet-to-be-played games on the shelf and a few on order, so probably not. I root for any game that looks half decent in the hopes that it takes market share away from the big games because we need more options IRL. I'd love to walk into a FLGS and see this (or similar game) being played rather than yet another table of 5e.
I don't really find anything "off" about this. I do see that Arcane Library has done some good research on how to launch a successful Kickstarter, and the results show they pretty much nailed it.
As far as the product itself goes, I liked the preview well enough that we discussed possibly running some sessions to see if it was worthwhile to switch. Now (as discussed in another thread) we ended up switching to EZD6 so I probably don't have need to get Shadowdark, but I'll likely back it at a PDF level so I can mine it for ideas.
Also, if anybody is interested in a little more background, she has a number of videos on YT that cover the game and it's origin. While it's obvious from some of the content that she is on the progressive side, I don't feel like that attitude has crept into the product much at all.
https://youtu.be/amtLUeKTbW0
I backed it after watching a few of the videos and perusing the quick start. Looks like a solid melding of OSE and DCC, with some 5e bits chucked in and some unique bits of her own. I've run The Secrets of Skyhorn Lighthouse, which was an excellent adventure, and read a couple of others from her. She's very legit when it comes to adventure design. Here are a few of her adventures reviewed by Bryce Lynch:
https://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?s=kelsey
I was initially excited for this game, but I ended up not backing it. As an overall game, it seems solid, but not particularly spectacular. And I don't like how the core rulebook in print is over $60.00, but it only features four PC classes. If you want more classes, they're spread across multiple zines at $9.00 each. No thank you. The "complete" core book should have offered more, IMO.
I guess I'm just really not a fan of most high-priced "deluxe" kickstarter items. A single-volume game would really have to knock my socks off for me to spend $60 - $100 on it, especially when there are so many similar games out there that are far less expensive but play just as well. Something like Greg Gillespie's upcoming rules set, or Gavin Norman's Dolmenwood game may entice me to spend money on them, as each are promising very high production values. But Shadowdark ended up not really impressing me as much as I thought it might.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 01, 2023, 10:21:22 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 01, 2023, 08:41:29 AM
The fact she has done work in module writing as a full time career, and has the attention of Questing Beast/Ben Milton, Professor Dungeon Craft, and Hankerin Furnale is all good. This isn't some sketchy product.
But, the proof is if the game is any good. It's supposed to be half 5E, half OSR. That's a mix I think we need more of. There are parts of 5E that are good.
I'm also a fan of any system that ditches Vancian magic, the dumbest magic system written. Ever. Yup, I said it. I think magical amnesia is bat-shit insane. Thankfully Shadowdark is using a skill check to cast magic. That's much better.
Good points. But when I saw the first vidya on the magic I'm like, this is DCC, I already have this. Plus there's a funnel type thing, which I again already have.
I noticed that as well. It's as if the OSR scene is full of nearly identical copycats of each other. Many are even free.
Her game sounds good. But the problem I see is that a lot of other games available right now sound similar. I'm not hearing anything that's going to set it apart from the huge crowd of D&D Heartbreakers (an actual term now). So far it's something to do with it being 5E-ish in design, skill checks for casting magic, and lots of good random tables.
So this is a wait and see situation for my money.
I wish her luck.
Quote from: rkhigdon on March 01, 2023, 12:35:15 PM
I don't really find anything "off" about this.
While it would be incredibly funny if
Shadowdark turned out to be the OSR version of the Theranos scandal, with Kelsey Dionne as Elizabeth Holmes, and Professor Dungeon Master as Henry Kissinger - I think that's extremely unlikely.
Quote from: Crusader X on March 01, 2023, 06:03:32 PM
I was initially excited for this game, but I ended up not backing it. As an overall game, it seems solid, but not particularly spectacular. And I don't like how the core rulebook in print is over $60.00, but it only features four PC classes. If you want more classes, they're spread across multiple zines at $9.00 each. No thank you. The "complete" core book should have offered more, IMO.
I guess I'm just really not a fan of most high-priced "deluxe" kickstarter items. A single-volume game would really have to knock my socks off for me to spend $60 - $100 on it, especially when there are so many similar games out there that are far less expensive but play just as well. Something like Greg Gillespie's upcoming rules set, or Gavin Norman's Dolmenwood game may entice me to spend money on them, as each are promising very high production values. But Shadowdark ended up not really impressing me as much as I thought it might.
Good point, especially I want to highlight the "deluxe". It's part of why I really dislike most kickstarters.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.
Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?
OK so it turns out these were 'sponsored reviews' https://youtu.be/fqO68ZjkNgA?t=43 (hat tip: Pundit) so I guess you were right to be suspicious. Looks like they were paid to review/promote the product.
Quote from: S'mon on March 02, 2023, 07:32:49 AM
OK so it turns out these were 'sponsored reviews' https://youtu.be/fqO68ZjkNgA?t=43 (hat tip: Pundit) so I guess you were right to be suspicious. Looks like they were paid to review/promote the product.
Questing Beast also listed them as a sponsor in his newsletter. So props to him for being open about his sponsors.
I don't think Dungeon Craft made any mention of sponsorship. So either he wasn't or didn't disclose that. Runehammer said his artwork was in the book, so there was at least a financial relationship there. House DM(another good review) specifically said he was not sponsored. He just seems to be a fan and has been running games/making content in the system for awhile. The kickstarter doesn't promote his patreon or other content as well.
Frankly the level of disclosure on Youtube is pretty shit. I recall seeing one Youtuber I know is regularly sponsored by Kobold Press giving glowing reviews to the Black Flag playtest. While I imagine he wasn't paid for that specific review, it's not like they're going to say it was bad when 30% of their other content gets money from the company.
I'm guessing that a few folks around here aren't too familiar with Kickstarter campaigns. For better or worse, this campaign is using pretty much the prototypical model that any successful campaign in the last decade has used to generate buzz and thus a strong start to the funding.
Quote from: rkhigdon on March 02, 2023, 10:14:51 AM
For better or worse, this campaign is using pretty much the prototypical model that any successful campaign in the last decade has used to generate buzz and thus a strong start to the funding.
Yeah, but it isn't typical for an OSR style game to pop this hard. Cities without Number did 367k and that was by a well established rpg author. Griffon's Saddlebag 2 did 1.2 mil, which is more at this level, but that's for 5e and a sequel to a well liked 5e add on. This game is probably going to finish stronger than Kibbles' Compendium(5e - 430k) and deep magic 2(5e/black flag - 860k). Typically it's a bit more normal for 5e projects to hit hard with everything else being luke warm.
So, if you discount "marketing" in that what's going on here as pretty typical of projects, then was it the OGL fiasco and now people are wanting to move away from 5e? Maybe everyone was pinning hopes on Black Flag, the first packet was a let down, and so everyone hopped onto this train? Or did this game just have the secret sauce for an OSR clone everyone else was missing?
Quote from: S'mon on March 02, 2023, 07:32:49 AM
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on February 28, 2023, 09:37:30 PM
So I get home from work, boot up YouTube, and see that Dungeon Craft, Questing Beast, and Runehammer have all made videos promoting a pretty generic looking OSR title call Shadowdark by someone named Kelsie D Non (she's apparently worked on some 5E stuff and has a YouTube channel with 12.5K subs) like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, It's apparently got $100K on Kickstarter, and the whole thing just feels "off" to me.
Has anybody else heard of this thing, or am I just being a cynical incel?
OK so it turns out these were 'sponsored reviews' https://youtu.be/fqO68ZjkNgA?t=43 (hat tip: Pundit) so I guess you were right to be suspicious. Looks like they were paid to review/promote the product.
OK, so that's Questing Beast openly saying it is a sponsored review. My question is, how common is this compared to competitors? I would suspect that sponsored reviews and similar paid marketing are common for RPG Kickstarters, which naturally are trying to promote themselves as much as possible. Do other RPG Kickstarters typically rely on only unpaid word-of-mouth?
EDITED TO ADD: I missed rkhigdon's post. Thanks for that, rkhigdon - but I'm happy to hear from others as well.
Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 11:53:25 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 01, 2023, 10:12:35 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:25:00 AM
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy? ??? Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.
Women designers are rare. If this gets extra attention because of that, so what? What would you have done in her shoes? Hired the 45 year old fat white guy to do all your promotion? ;)
Ha ha ha. ;D No, I'm not complaining. It's just a fact of life. Guys like girls.
...
The game designer would not be nearly as 'popular' if she wasn't a girl.
That is also not her fault. It is what it is.
She seems to have cleverly leveraged her contacts, and working relationships to give her KS a big boost amongst her target demo.
Can't hate on the hustle.
The only thing that really twigged for me was that her YTube channel was
exclusively 5e adventure content for years (which explains the subscriber count), and then a month ago; boom, suddenly an OSR game designer...
One can make of that what they will.
After seeing the previews - it's at best a pdf purchase to crib for ideas, the game is just a little too much on the rules-lite side for me.
Looks like this guy got caught on the hype train hard.
(https://i.imgur.com/wYXdr8a.png)
I backed it because it sounded pretty cool. I went for the full digital for 55 bucks.
I'm not sure I'm down with the whole 'real time' aspect, but I like the concept of creating more urgency in a game for that type of environment.
Reminds me of a slicker version of C&C. Why not watch her own vid, it runs through a lot of the game's concepts.
And I can't blame her for trying to promote her game. Who doesn't do that?? I've seen people pay for reviews before, so as long as they mention it I don't mind. Plus, who buys a book on one review? I usually check out a couple of vids (if available) or some blogs.
Quote from: zer0th on March 02, 2023, 05:56:16 PM
Looks like this guy got caught on the hype train hard.
(https://i.imgur.com/wYXdr8a.png)
Didn't see this. To be fair Aaron's got good pretty good taste. Seems like a good bloke too.
Greetings!
I don't care if she has used *sponsored reviews* or not. She explained that only Questing Beast was sponsored--because that is a standard practice that he insists for everyone dealing with him. Others have also explained that making use of sponsored reviews for Kickstarters as part of the marketing program is an industry *STANDARD*. So, I'm not seeing what the big deal is about.
Secondly, as also pointed out--Dungeoncraft, Questing Beast, and Arcane Library all KNOW EACH OTHER. THEY ARE FRIENDS WITH EACH OTHER. It isn't surprising that they would be interested in helping each other any way that they can. I would hope that MY FRIENDS would eagerly help to promote me or my products as well.
Thirdly, the Kickstarter and preview materials adequately demonstrate what Shadowdark is about, and what the game book embraces. Pretty straightforward. There's nothing nefarious or malicious going on here. Mechanically and stylistically, Shadowdark uses many systems and ideas pioneered and developed before, but puts a fresh spin on them. Then, there is some new takes on how to do things, and how it is all presented. Just like any game designer anywhere, ever. Shadowdark seems like a pretty good game, simple, fast, and fun, while also being anchored in OSR concepts. An added benefit is Shadowdark also embraces some "New School"/5E elements and blends them together in a good way.
Relatively new DM's, game designers, and so on in the OSR should be *applauded* encouraged, and supported. Such enthusiasm, innovation and efforts are how the hobby remains strong--and independent from WOTC.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 02, 2023, 06:59:10 PM
Greetings!
I don't care if she has used *sponsored reviews* or not. She explained that only Questing Beast was sponsored--because that is a standard practice that he insists for everyone dealing with him. Others have also explained that making use of sponsored reviews for Kickstarters as part of the marketing program is an industry *STANDARD*. So, I'm not seeing what the big deal is about.
Secondly, as also pointed out--Dungeoncraft, Questing Beast, and Arcane Library all KNOW EACH OTHER. THEY ARE FRIENDS WITH EACH OTHER. It isn't surprising that they would be interested in helping each other any way that they can. I would hope that MY FRIENDS would eagerly help to promote me or my products as well.
Thirdly, the Kickstarter and preview materials adequately demonstrate what Shadowdark is about, and what the game book embraces. Pretty straightforward. There's nothing nefarious or malicious going on here. Mechanically and stylistically, Shadowdark uses many systems and ideas pioneered and developed before, but puts a fresh spin on them. Then, there is some new takes on how to do things, and how it is all presented. Just like any game designer anywhere, ever. Shadowdark seems like a pretty good game, simple, fast, and fun, while also being anchored in OSR concepts. An added benefit is Shadowdark also embraces some "New School"/5E elements and blends them together in a good way.
Relatively new DM's, game designers, and so on in the OSR should be *applauded* encouraged, and supported. Such enthusiasm, innovation and efforts are how the hobby remains strong--and independent from WOTC.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
That sums it up very well, S.
R.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 02, 2023, 07:01:47 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 02, 2023, 06:59:10 PM
Greetings!
I don't care if she has used *sponsored reviews* or not. She explained that only Questing Beast was sponsored--because that is a standard practice that he insists for everyone dealing with him. Others have also explained that making use of sponsored reviews for Kickstarters as part of the marketing program is an industry *STANDARD*. So, I'm not seeing what the big deal is about.
Secondly, as also pointed out--Dungeoncraft, Questing Beast, and Arcane Library all KNOW EACH OTHER. THEY ARE FRIENDS WITH EACH OTHER. It isn't surprising that they would be interested in helping each other any way that they can. I would hope that MY FRIENDS would eagerly help to promote me or my products as well.
Thirdly, the Kickstarter and preview materials adequately demonstrate what Shadowdark is about, and what the game book embraces. Pretty straightforward. There's nothing nefarious or malicious going on here. Mechanically and stylistically, Shadowdark uses many systems and ideas pioneered and developed before, but puts a fresh spin on them. Then, there is some new takes on how to do things, and how it is all presented. Just like any game designer anywhere, ever. Shadowdark seems like a pretty good game, simple, fast, and fun, while also being anchored in OSR concepts. An added benefit is Shadowdark also embraces some "New School"/5E elements and blends them together in a good way.
Relatively new DM's, game designers, and so on in the OSR should be *applauded* encouraged, and supported. Such enthusiasm, innovation and efforts are how the hobby remains strong--and independent from WOTC.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
That sums it up very well, S.
R.
Greetings!
Thank you, Rob! I'm also going to put my money where my mouth is, and support the Kickstarter. I'm something of completionist kind of guy, so I will back the $120 dollar deluxe package thingy. I want the uber hardcover, the GM screen, and the supplemental magazine expansions. Evidently, they also include additional classes and rule expansions.
I also know that she's been making 5E adventures for a good number of years now, so she's not a novice. In addition, I've also followed Questing Beast and Dungeoncraft for years now. They are both consistent, and generally solid in their analysis, reviews, and game design preferences. Aaron The Pedantic, too, is definitely on the train. *Laughing* I hope that Shadowdark will be awesome. So far, it is looking to be very strong as a game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 02, 2023, 07:17:03 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 02, 2023, 07:01:47 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 02, 2023, 06:59:10 PM
Greetings!
I don't care if she has used *sponsored reviews* or not. She explained that only Questing Beast was sponsored--because that is a standard practice that he insists for everyone dealing with him. Others have also explained that making use of sponsored reviews for Kickstarters as part of the marketing program is an industry *STANDARD*. So, I'm not seeing what the big deal is about.
Secondly, as also pointed out--Dungeoncraft, Questing Beast, and Arcane Library all KNOW EACH OTHER. THEY ARE FRIENDS WITH EACH OTHER. It isn't surprising that they would be interested in helping each other any way that they can. I would hope that MY FRIENDS would eagerly help to promote me or my products as well.
Thirdly, the Kickstarter and preview materials adequately demonstrate what Shadowdark is about, and what the game book embraces. Pretty straightforward. There's nothing nefarious or malicious going on here. Mechanically and stylistically, Shadowdark uses many systems and ideas pioneered and developed before, but puts a fresh spin on them. Then, there is some new takes on how to do things, and how it is all presented. Just like any game designer anywhere, ever. Shadowdark seems like a pretty good game, simple, fast, and fun, while also being anchored in OSR concepts. An added benefit is Shadowdark also embraces some "New School"/5E elements and blends them together in a good way.
Relatively new DM's, game designers, and so on in the OSR should be *applauded* encouraged, and supported. Such enthusiasm, innovation and efforts are how the hobby remains strong--and independent from WOTC.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
That sums it up very well, S.
R.
Greetings!
Thank you, Rob! I'm also going to put my money where my mouth is, and support the Kickstarter. I'm something of completionist kind of guy, so I will back the $120 dollar deluxe package thingy. I want the uber hardcover, the GM screen, and the supplemental magazine expansions. Evidently, they also include additional classes and rule expansions.
I also know that she's been making 5E adventures for a good number of years now, so she's not a novice. In addition, I've also followed Questing Beast and Dungeoncraft for years now. They are both consistent, and generally solid in their analysis, reviews, and game design preferences. Aaron The Pedantic, too, is definitely on the train. *Laughing* I hope that Shadowdark will be awesome. So far, it is looking to be very strong as a game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Fair play, man.
I'm the same I'm a bit of a completionist too. I wanted to have everything but in a digital format so I thought 55 bucks was a good deal. But the hardcover looks very cool and with it being stitched it'll stay open on the table. So 120 for the lot is a good deal as well considering what you get (in a physical form).
Yeah, even beyond the whole Kickstarter thing, she knows what she's doing. I checked out some of her design concepts vids on her youtube channel and it's all good solid advice. She had one specifically about designing a horror one-shot in 5e and I liked her thought process and ideas on the subject.
I think Ben is an honest broker too and if he didn't think it was going to be good, I doubt he'd even review, especially given that they are mates, etc. But he sounded pretty positive overall. DM Bloodworth did an overview as well and I respect his opinion.
I don't think it's going to be the best thing since sliced bread, but what is? overall it sounds slick and elegant so far - Let's hope it's as good as everyone says it is.
But from everything I've seen and read - so far so good! :)
Cheers,
R.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 02, 2023, 07:51:46 PM
I don't think it's going to be the best thing since sliced bread, but what is? overall it sounds slick and elegant so far - Let's hope it's as good as everyone says it is.
Mostly what I'm hoping for is something more palatable to 5E players but with a 1980's style of play and is a good dungeon crawler. The lack of weird setting for me at this point would be a plus as well.
I thought the deluxe seemed like a good deal and appreciated that PDFs were thrown in with print levels, so that's the tier I went in for.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 02, 2023, 07:51:46 PM
I think Ben is an honest broker too and if he didn't think it was going to be good, I doubt he'd even review, especially given that they are mates, etc.
I'm sure his review is honest. I do find the idea of taking money for reviews a bit iffy, no matter how common it is. I prefer Youtube reviewers who won't take money for reviews. I especially prefer the ones who give negative as well as positive reviews.
Still, I'm pretty satisfied Arcane Library did nothing wrong, even if I personally wouldn't pay for a review. I am not a successful businessperson, after all. ;D
Well, the kickstarter is over half a mil already with many days to go. I wonder if this will be in the million club?
Cheers to her success! I will root for her, but I'm still not going to back (not that it matters now anyway). It just doesn't interest me.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 03, 2023, 08:22:45 AM
Cheers to her success! I will root for her, but I'm still not going to back (not that it matters now anyway). It just doesn't interest me.
I feel the same. I wonder if Pundit's interjection has contributed at all to her success, from the "Save the Fair Damsel from the Evil Nazi (TM)" crowd. ;D Everything I've seen indicates Arcane Library is determinedly apolitical, this could have been just what she needed to rally support from the Wokeosphere!
Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:25:00 AM
Would it get the same attention if the author was a 45 year old fat white guy? ??? Honestly I don't know. But apart from that it seems legit AFAICT.
^This. Thirsty dudes are gonna thirst.
Does this new game bring anything innovative to the table? Anything I haven't already houseruled into my own games during my 42-years of playing?
Nothing feels off to me. Her content and background as an adventure writer is well established.
She has marketed her product well. And that product she is marketing well looks like it has high production value. The writing samples are very clean. The art looks great. And as far as value for your dollar on KS, it is priced at or below the market for what you'll get.
This looks like a perfectly fine KS to me. I have never seen anything other than ad copy level videos on any campaign page for a launch/marketing of a KS. Why the hell would anyone do anything but promote it?
If she happens to have friends in the industry that are helping her promote the Kickstarter, more power to her. I think Pundit is stepping all over his dick on Twitter. No one cares that the videos that have advance copies are promoting the product that is being launched. If Pundit was aiming at the spirit of the FCC rules on labeling promotion clearly, and aiming at the YouTube creators themselves, maybe I can buy if. But at the Kickstarter? Clear miss.
This appears to be exactly what it seems - someone that has been working in the industry for a while who wanted to mix more OSR into a 5e formula or more 5e into a 5e formula. I have more of an issue of the lack of adventure content to go with a pricey new rule book than the idea that she is offering to the public and I am excited that she is getting the attention.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 03, 2023, 09:23:44 AM^This. Thirsty dudes are gonna thirst.
I'd need to be lost in the desert with the Israelites for 40 years, to thirst over that chick. I know nerd girls get a far more forgiving ranking, but even still, yikes.
Quote from: S'mon on March 03, 2023, 08:34:38 AM
I feel the same. I wonder if Pundit's interjection has contributed at all to her success, from the "Save the Fair Damsel from the Evil Nazi (TM)" crowd. ;D Everything I've seen indicates Arcane Library is determinedly apolitical, this could have been just what she needed to rally support from the Wokeosphere!
I apologize, but I do believe I missed pundit saying something. What was said and where?
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 03, 2023, 09:53:24 AM
I'd need to be lost in the desert with the Israelites for 40 years, to thirst over that chick. I know nerd girls get a far more forgiving ranking, but even still, yikes.
Heh, ain't that the gawds own truth.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 03, 2023, 09:23:44 AM
Does this new game bring anything innovative to the table? Anything I haven't already houseruled into my own games during my 42-years of playing?
I think it'd only be innovative for younger players, those without the history of a lot of us here.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on March 03, 2023, 09:51:48 AM
If she happens to have friends in the industry that are helping her promote the Kickstarter, more power to her. I think Pundit is stepping all over his dick on Twitter. No one cares that the videos that have advance copies are promoting the product that is being launched. If Pundit was aiming at the spirit of the FCC rules on labeling promotion clearly, and aiming at the YouTube creators themselves, maybe I can buy if. But at the Kickstarter? Clear miss.
Yeah, I agree. I think Pundit is being an asshat again. Not as big an asshat as the Wokesters calling him a Nazi (well, N*zi or Notc - Twitter is censored) but it's not a good look. Like I said, I do find Ben/Questing Beast's policy of taking money for reviews to be dubious, and I'd be ok with criticising that. Attacking the nerd chick for boosting her Kickstarter does look like sexism, even if it works out to her advantage.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 03, 2023, 10:12:34 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 03, 2023, 08:34:38 AM
I feel the same. I wonder if Pundit's interjection has contributed at all to her success, from the "Save the Fair Damsel from the Evil Nazi (TM)" crowd. ;D Everything I've seen indicates Arcane Library is determinedly apolitical, this could have been just what she needed to rally support from the Wokeosphere!
I apologize, but I do believe I missed pundit saying something. What was said and where?
Started yesterday at https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/msg1245912/#msg1245912
Then there was a spat on Twitter, with Pundit criticising her, people calling him a Nazi, etc etc.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 03, 2023, 09:53:24 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 03, 2023, 09:23:44 AM^This. Thirsty dudes are gonna thirst.
I'd need to be lost in the desert with the Israelites for 40 years, to thirst over that chick. I know nerd girls get a far more forgiving ranking, but even still, yikes.
Nice cheekbones! She's not as hot as Ben/Questing Beast though - and I'm straight (but drunk). ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amtLUeKTbW0 Looks fine to me; definitely a nerd, she'd wear a lot more makeup & different clothes if she was trying to appeal to the thirsty demographic. I like how she says her first campaign was Wilderlands - City State of the Invincible Overlord, a VERY non-Woke campaign setting.
I guess my view is that over the past couple days I've gone from indifferent to getting tempted to check this game out. My big current non-D&D focus though is on Dragonbane, where this looks like another D&D near-clone.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 03, 2023, 09:23:44 AM
^This. Thirsty dudes are gonna thirst.
Kelsey writes good stuff, and I have purchased physical products from her Arcane Library. For any dudes thirsting, though... They may be disappointed. A few years back, she stated that she has a girlfriend.
YouTube video: https://youtu.be/xWLUJYlYymQ
You can skip to 2:55 for the quote, but the entire video is about a minimalist GM kit she assembled, and is really worth a full viewing.
I appreciate that Kelsey doesn't make her personal relationship preferences a marketing point. She's really down-to-earth, not an "activist" and just enjoys gaming old school.
Quote from: Feratu on March 03, 2023, 11:14:09 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 03, 2023, 09:23:44 AM
^This. Thirsty dudes are gonna thirst.
Kelsey writes good stuff, and I have purchased physical products from her Arcane Library. For any dudes thirsting, though... They may be disappointed. A few years back, she stated that she has a girlfriend.
YouTube video: https://youtu.be/xWLUJYlYymQ
You can skip to 2:55 for the quote, but the entire video is about a minimalist GM kit she assembled, and is really worth a full viewing.
I appreciate that Kelsey doesn't make her personal relationship preferences a marketing point. She's really down-to-earth, not an "activist" and just enjoys gaming old school.
And her wife is credited on the KS project as well.
I said this earlier and I'll say it again, they have loads of virtue signaling ammo, but they aren't using it. This tells me they are just regular gamers who are serious about their project.
Quote from: Feratu on March 03, 2023, 11:14:09 AM
Kelsey writes good stuff, and I have purchased physical products from her Arcane Library. For any dudes thirsting, though... They may be disappointed. A few years back, she stated that she has a girlfriend.
YouTube video: https://youtu.be/xWLUJYlYymQ
Clearly just needs a Real Man like Pundit to 'cure' her. :P
Quote from: S'mon on March 03, 2023, 10:34:27 AM
Started yesterday at https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/list-ttrpg-guide-to-woke-companies/msg1245912/#msg1245912
Then there was a spat on Twitter, with Pundit criticising her, people calling him a Nazi, etc etc.
Thanks S'mon. Appreciate it.
Yes, in one of the recent videos there's clear indication that she has a wife. As there's clearly been no agenda, and has nothing to with the product itself, I didn't feel it was worth a mention.
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 03, 2023, 11:31:47 AM
I said this earlier and I'll say it again, they have loads of virtue signaling ammo, but they aren't using it.
Ayup. It's almost uncanny! I see Kelsey even deleted her Pundit-criticising Tweet, even though stirring up the Twitterati against Pundit could likely have generated more backers for her Kickstarter.
Assuming this wasn't all some cunning ploy to generate interest in a Green-list/non-Woke OSR project, I feel Pundit could barely have found a worse target if he'd tried.
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 03, 2023, 11:31:47 AM
This tells me they are just regular gamers who are serious about their project.
Exactly...
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 03, 2023, 09:23:44 AM
Does this new game bring anything innovative to the table? Anything I haven't already houseruled into my own games during my 42-years of playing?
No, not really. But the vast majority of players aren't going to take the time to house rule OSR from different sources into something they like.
So far I've been digging into the game thinking I'm finding flaws here and there, but then seeing those decisions are actually balanced. The game feels like someone took OSE, collected and tweaked a lot of house rules, did some core balance changes(short bows are d4 damage, torches/food are balanced against inventory slots) and spent 3 years play testing it at the tables of some decent designers.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 03, 2023, 11:32:32 AM
Thanks S'mon. Appreciate it.
Looking at Twitter, they seem to have kissed & made up now. Overall been very impressed by this Kelsey lass #nothirst ;D
Quote from: S'mon on March 03, 2023, 11:36:40 AM
Assuming this wasn't all some cunning ploy to generate interest in a Green-list/non-Woke OSR project, I feel Pundit could barely have found a worse target if he'd tried.
I dismissed this because if Pundit was going to be that duplicitous, he'd do it with much more aplomb and it would be super entertaining.
The sudden and sustained push
is inorganic. Post after post in all the OSR subreddits, accounts advertising it in every possible place, but actual /r/shadowdark is sparse? There's some minor shill stuff happening. I think Pundit was just reacting to that. Personally, I'm fine with all that. When I watch Questing Beast, I assume he's paid, I think that's actually just how he works. He goes over the product in some decent detail, and this one is no different. I don't see much difference between this type of content and when I would go read some magazine at the bookstore as a kid, jam packed full of exciting ads and occasional discussion, be it about roleplaying games or video games. I think Pundit just wants things to be more ethical than they are or ever were.
Quote from: Venka on March 03, 2023, 01:24:11 PM
When I watch Questing Beast, I assume he's paid, I think that's actually just how he works. He goes over the product in some decent detail, and this one is no different. I don't see much difference between this type of content and when I would go read some magazine at the bookstore as a kid, jam packed full of exciting ads and occasional discussion, be it about roleplaying games or video games. I think Pundit just wants things to be more ethical than they are or ever were.
I feel now like Questing Beast material ought to have a big Red Hand and a "WARNING: PAID MATERIAL!" disclaimer on it.
Venka put it best; it just feels inorganic. Maybe there was a little cash or some advance copies changing hands, or maybe it was just some people in a particular internet circle using their clout and audience to do someone else in the circle a solid.
I've got nothing against the game or it's the creator, or the success of either. It all just felt like one big Ad, is all I'm saying.
Greetings!
Well, there we go. I just completed pledging for the Legend package. $159 bucks gets me everything in PDF and in PRINT. I also get a second *premium* Core Rulebook with the fancy cover. I don't really care about the PDF stuff though, honestly. I'm a book guy. *Laughing*. I guess it will be cool to have an additional copy of the rules though. That way, one can stay in the bookshelf for reference, while the normal copy can be used in combat, with being around cigars, mgs of coffee, and occasional shots of Tequila. And pizza. I hope the game is awesome! Everything looks good.
I am kind of wondering though...Kickstarter took my card information, but not anything about my mailing address. So, how is Kelsey going to send me my books? Apparently, Kelsey will bite me for the $159 dollars on March 30. I've never done Kickstarters, so I do not know how this stuff works.
As for Pundit's commentary, yeah. I have to agree with my friend S'mon. Kelsey and Shadowdark was definitely the wrong target to bark after. Pundit's commentary didn't look good, and came across, *shrugs*--unnecessarily aggressive, suspicious, and provocative. Even if you ignore all the whining Woke crybaby enemies that Pundit has--and evidently, there really are *hordes* of them--even for normal OSR gamers and *fans and supporters of Pundit*--like myself--Pundit's approach was not a good look. I read more than one comment from Pundit supporters commenting something like "Dude, what are you doing? Not good, man." And similar. I hope Pundit can learn to be more polished and polite with people, especially to relative newcomers or people that do not have some kind of pre-existing animosity with him, or the OSR hobby.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 03, 2023, 06:22:36 PM
I hope Pundit can learn to be more polished and polite with people, especially to relative newcomers or people that do not have some kind of pre-existing animosity with him, or the OSR hobby.
Indeed... Pundit came across as a tad foolish here, and quite a few of the good OSR crowd on YT came out to support her.
PS - Re. your card. I'm sure they will ask you for a survey when they actually take your money (AFAIK).
With Kickstarter, the creator will send out surveys for things like shipping info or in-book naming credit. Once you've filled out your first, it's generally just a simple matter of confirming your previous info if you back another Kickstarter. I believe you can also go into your Kickstarter account to change your saved information if you move or something else changes.
Ehhh. So a industry vet "pre-markets" her kickstarter on Youtube. Makes financial and marketing sense, sure. But does it equal quality? I mean, if she's friends with the Youtubers she's not paying, how is that any more reliable? Do you honestly think any of them are going to tear down a friend's game publicly? Take food off her table?
See, this is the problem with hype. And at this point, this game is all hype. No one here has played it. No one has seen anything other than previews and carefully presented material. So, at this moment, everyone who is enthusiastic about this product is doing so based on faith. Now, could it be good? Sure. The fact that she's got some good (so I've been told) modules under her belt is very encouraging. This could be a good game. Or it could be crap. And no one knows (at least no one not in the marketing of the game...).
And that's why the OP was right. There is something "off" here. But it's not something malicious or nefarious. It's just that she has played the hype machine perfectly. Which means NOTHING about the actual quality of the game. But the hype is the "something." If people haven't learned to distrust hype, based on the last few years of kickstarter and media (including lots of hype not related to gaming), then I guess we are just that stupid as a species.
Note: I'm not knocking the people who are supporting this. I've supported kickstarters based on what I hoped they would be before myself. So I'm not criticizing that. I just hope people will be a little more self-aware about their reasoning and risk. And not let hype blind them. So I've got no problem with Pundit asking questions. Because hype, by its very nature, is suspicious. It's the double-edged sword of hype. If it's great, it'll usually get hyped. But if it's great, why does it need to be hyped? So when I see hype before I see great, it makes me wary...
Quote from: Dracones on March 03, 2023, 11:56:33 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 03, 2023, 09:23:44 AM
Does this new game bring anything innovative to the table? Anything I haven't already houseruled into my own games during my 42-years of playing?
No, not really. But the vast majority of players aren't going to take the time to house rule OSR from different sources into something they like.
So far I've been digging into the game thinking I'm finding flaws here and there, but then seeing those decisions are actually balanced. The game feels like someone took OSE, collected and tweaked a lot of house rules, did some core balance changes(short bows are d4 damage, torches/food are balanced against inventory slots) and spent 3 years play testing it at the tables of some decent designers.
Greetings!
Excellent commentary and analysis, Dracones! I agree, just about everything in Shadowdark, game-wise, mechanics, and so on, has been done before. However, all of these different mechanics and ideas are spread out over house rules, modules, and a dozen different game books and sub-systems.
Bringing them all together, in in one book, presented in a slick, bold manner, along with fantastic, "Old-School" style of artwork is brilliant. It all combines into a very nice package, again, all in one core book.
I'm hopeful everything will turn out awesome.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 03, 2023, 09:53:09 PM
If it's great, it'll usually get hyped. But if it's great, why does it need to be hyped?
So that people are aware of the product?
The free quickstart was released 4 months before the KS, and includes 120 pp. of rules, pregens and an adventure. So it's possible some of the hype is based on actual read-throughs, play-throughs, etc. My read-through was enough to convince me it wasn't for me, maybe others had the opposite reaction, leading to informed KS pledges?
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 28, 2023, 11:25:04 PM
There are no racial stats and ancestry rather than race. To me, that's a sign of woke. Maybe she's trying to avoid twitter rage or maybe she's woke. But those are two things I saw in a review that made me go NOPE. Pro-tip, if you want to get the old school players and not use race, then use demi-humans.
Well, we got into a fight on Twitter and she didn't once use a "woman card" or call for me to be cancelled, so I'm not sure how Woke she is. I think more likely she's anti-woke (she's a gal from Wisconsin, after all) but is scared of admitting it because of potential cost. It's probably why she switched to 'ancestry' and also why she denied having been inspired by anyone in the OSR, in spite of having mechanics that are very clearly OSR mechanics. She can't be associated with us, even though she clearly would really like to be, but she's scared of a Woke 5e Mob cancel campaign.
Quote from: rhialto on March 04, 2023, 05:21:49 AM
The free quickstart was released 4 months before the KS, and includes 120 pp. of rules, pregens and an adventure. So it's possible some of the hype is based on actual read-throughs, play-throughs, etc. My read-through was enough to convince me it wasn't for me, maybe others had the opposite reaction, leading to informed KS pledges?
That sounds wise overall, campaigns can be competitive for attention when everyone and their grandmothers are releasing RPG materials or anything like Gloomhaven. Both sides are spread out a little thin as a result.
Quote from: S'mon on March 03, 2023, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 03, 2023, 08:22:45 AM
Cheers to her success! I will root for her, but I'm still not going to back (not that it matters now anyway). It just doesn't interest me.
I feel the same. I wonder if Pundit's interjection has contributed at all to her success, from the "Save the Fair Damsel from the Evil Nazi (TM)" crowd. ;D Everything I've seen indicates Arcane Library is determinedly apolitical, this could have been just what she needed to rally support from the Wokeosphere!
From what I've seen it's more like the Simposphere. But she's not encouraging them.
Honestly this whole thing seems to me to be a culture clash issue. She grew up playing 2e or whatever, but never got into the OSR, she went into 5e. She did a lot of stuff with 5e and knows that culture. That's a culture full of influencers, where pretty people who talk well are the most powerful in the hierarchy (and there's definitely a hierarchy) and it's all about the grifting of the Current Thing, and consooming what the Influencers tell you is so hot right now.
In other words, a shallow, infantile toxic hierarchy.
Whereas the OSR is a counter-culture. Nothing about you matters (not race, age, sex, gender, sexuality, how good you look, how many twitch followers you have, anything) except how well you design games. And the culture is not a top-down culture like 5e's where influencers tell you what to like and you buy it, it's a non-hierarchical MERITOCRACY, where the people who are the coolest designers have the most clout but there's no pope or king, and ANY attempt to generate buzz with anything other than being a great designer looks "phoney" to us.
So she came in here, wanting to unite 5e and OSR, but her entire Marketing agenda was TOTAL 5E. It was all about influencers and fake buzz. It wasn't about talking about design influences and stuff. In fact she so doesn't understand how that works in the OSR that when I suggested that a lot of the stuff she has in her game (random leveling, spell checks, random background events, etc etc) are in Lion & Dragon, she took that as if I was accusing her of a crime rather than expressing pride at how some of my design ideas are being redone by someone else in new and interesting ways.
So is there a danger in all this? Yes. In theory, Shadowdark could end up drawing in thousands of new people into the OSR, but who are essentially immigrants from 5e culture and the mentalities of their toxic "5e Community". They'll bring wokeness, the idea that popular twitch actors or youtube influencers who have never produced a single mechanic are the equals or even superiors of the actual designers, and a culture that demands "niceness" and thus turns the kind of constant criticisms we make of each other's products in the OSR into "hate speech" that can't be allowed (destroying creators' ability to improve their skills). You might think that's exaggeration, but look at the thousands of tweets from people saying that actually "reviews" like dungeoncrafts that only say NICE things are way better than MEAN ones because "we need to support each other and not be triggering" or whatever. OMG LOL, etc etc
So the OSR does have to be careful here, and put its foot down. Starting with a RESOUNDING CONDEMNATION of paid reviews. There's no such thing as a "paid review": there's a Review (unpaid) or there a FUCKING INFOMERCIAL.
Also, reject in every way anyone who claims to be an influencer but has never produced a successful game. Those people will be absolute poison to the OSR.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2023, 09:30:21 AM
Nothing feels off to me. Her content and background as an adventure writer is well established.
I'm sure she is in certain scenes. But if you're from the actual OSR (as opposed to some 5e circles or the garycon grognard crowd), NO ONE had ever heard of her until 3 days ago and suddenly it looked like EVERYWHERE was talking about her game all at once, from a total unknown. It had all the looks of a carefully pre-planned marketing blitz campaign.
Quote from: S'mon on March 03, 2023, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 03, 2023, 11:31:47 AM
I said this earlier and I'll say it again, they have loads of virtue signaling ammo, but they aren't using it.
Ayup. It's almost uncanny! I see Kelsey even deleted her Pundit-criticising Tweet, even though stirring up the Twitterati against Pundit could likely have generated more backers for her Kickstarter.
Assuming this wasn't all some cunning ploy to generate interest in a Green-list/non-Woke OSR project, I feel Pundit could barely have found a worse target if he'd tried.
I'm very impressed with her, actually. Except for the fact that she doesn't understand the culture of the design school of the OSR, but she can fix that. She could fit right in actually, by the looks of it, because she certainly doesn't seem to care about invoking the woke bullshit. She doesn't advertise her pronouns, and this thread is the first I hear of her sexuality.
I bet if someone spoke to her in private they'd get an anti-woke rant, but she just feels that in terms of her fan base she has to stay apolitical, and I understand that.
Im notni terested in Shadowdark, but some of her adventures for Shadowdark look fun.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 03, 2023, 09:53:09 PM
Ehhh. So a industry vet "pre-markets" her kickstarter on Youtube. Makes financial and marketing sense, sure. But does it equal quality? I mean, if she's friends with the Youtubers she's not paying, how is that any more reliable? Do you honestly think any of them are going to tear down a friend's game publicly? Take food off her table?
See, this is the problem with hype. And at this point, this game is all hype. No one here has played it. No one has seen anything other than previews and carefully presented material. So, at this moment, everyone who is enthusiastic about this product is doing so based on faith. Now, could it be good? Sure. The fact that she's got some good (so I've been told) modules under her belt is very encouraging. This could be a good game. Or it could be crap. And no one knows (at least no one not in the marketing of the game...).
And that's why the OP was right. There is something "off" here. But it's not something malicious or nefarious. It's just that she has played the hype machine perfectly. Which means NOTHING about the actual quality of the game. But the hype is the "something." If people haven't learned to distrust hype, based on the last few years of kickstarter and media (including lots of hype not related to gaming), then I guess we are just that stupid as a species.
Note: I'm not knocking the people who are supporting this. I've supported kickstarters based on what I hoped they would be before myself. So I'm not criticizing that. I just hope people will be a little more self-aware about their reasoning and risk. And not let hype blind them. So I've got no problem with Pundit asking questions. Because hype, by its very nature, is suspicious. It's the double-edged sword of hype. If it's great, it'll usually get hyped. But if it's great, why does it need to be hyped? So when I see hype before I see great, it makes me wary...
The sad part of this is that I'm pretty sure the game is likely to be fine. It's just that the hype makes it look sus.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:46:18 PM
I'm very impressed with her, actually.
I'd barely heard of her either, but the little bit I'd heard was positive. AIR she did come up in the Woke Companies discussion a wee while back as a suggested addition to the Green List, rejected for lack of notability.
While I thought Arcane Library and Professor DM both handled you on Twitter with considerable grace and dignity, that Indestructoboy fellow is quite a dick. ;D
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:37:40 PM
But if you're from the actual OSR (as opposed to some 5e circles or the garycon grognard crowd), NO ONE had ever heard of her until 3 days ago
Not entirely true. Kelsey has been mentioned several times over at Bryce Lynch's tenfootpole.org blog. Now I realize that's not exclusively an OSR site, as Bryce reviews some 5e stuff there as well. But I would say that Bryce's site is fairly popular among the OSR crowd. And Bryce has praised Kelsey there often. Not just when reviewing her own adventures, but name-dropping her when he talks about good game designers in general. Bryce held a "Wavestone Keep" adventure design contest, and while Kelsey didn't win the top prize, she was one of the top entrants and runners up. And she occasionally interacts with others in the comments sections of Bryce's reviews.
I'm not saying that Kelsey is super well-known among OSR gamers. But she's not completely unknown either. Regular readers of Bryce's blog have heard of her.
I first heard about Shadowdark when James Mishler Games started producing supplemental material, FWIW. I'm not interested in the game itself, largely because the OSR and BrOSR have pretty well convinced me than I'm not well suited to anything closer to D&D's roots than 2nd Edition :), but it was already getting buzz before the Kickstarter hit.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 03, 2023, 09:53:09 PM
Ehhh. So a industry vet "pre-markets" her kickstarter on Youtube. Makes financial and marketing sense, sure. But does it equal quality? I mean, if she's friends with the Youtubers she's not paying, how is that any more reliable? Do you honestly think any of them are going to tear down a friend's game publicly? Take food off her table?
See, this is the problem with hype. And at this point, this game is all hype. No one here has played it. No one has seen anything other than previews and carefully presented material. So, at this moment, everyone who is enthusiastic about this product is doing so based on faith. Now, could it be good? Sure. The fact that she's got some good (so I've been told) modules under her belt is very encouraging. This could be a good game. Or it could be crap. And no one knows (at least no one not in the marketing of the game...).
And that's why the OP was right. There is something "off" here. But it's not something malicious or nefarious. It's just that she has played the hype machine perfectly. Which means NOTHING about the actual quality of the game. But the hype is the "something." If people haven't learned to distrust hype, based on the last few years of kickstarter and media (including lots of hype not related to gaming), then I guess we are just that stupid as a species.
Note: I'm not knocking the people who are supporting this. I've supported kickstarters based on what I hoped they would be before myself. So I'm not criticizing that. I just hope people will be a little more self-aware about their reasoning and risk. And not let hype blind them. So I've got no problem with Pundit asking questions. Because hype, by its very nature, is suspicious. It's the double-edged sword of hype. If it's great, it'll usually get hyped. But if it's great, why does it need to be hyped? So when I see hype before I see great, it makes me wary...
The sad part of this is that I'm pretty sure the game is likely to be fine. It's just that the hype makes it look sus.
She's using direct marketing via facebook ads, there's nothing wrong with that, anyone in the OSR can do the same thing.
For the influencers, Questing Beast and Professor Dungeoncraft are the two whose talked about her work, and both have put out work. I used a lot of Professor Dungeoncrafts idea to fix Keep on the Borderlands and give it a cohesive plotline that I used to tie into Temple of Elemental Evil -> Against the Giants -> Vault of the Drow -> Demonweb pits (us a drug coming from the mines, set up trilateral trade amongst the factions, build some unique monsters, put in a quack physician to help with some of those statuses oops you might die on his rolls, put in a wizard to apprentice). Questing beast covers a lot of OSR materials in his videos and he doesn't do 5E, so that's a win as well.
Now, do you see her stuff on Critical Role, Nerd Immersion (original white male in the basement who refused to ask Kyle about his shots fired against people like him when he interviewed Kyle - Nerd Immersion is a feminized male I'd be surprised if his wife allows him to have more than 3 male friends), Ginny D or Bob the World Builder, she'd be more suspect.
I'm not about to buy new content at this moment, and some of her stuff is sus, but using marketing is Capitalism 101. She's not using guys focused on 5E, but more OSR centered content. If Jorphan reviews her, I'll give her a shot. His Jocular Junction is fairly good. The DM's Lair as well for a content review, he's pretty good making his own 5E content, and boy did the OGL make him grow his balls 3 sizes too large. In the past he's make low level digs at D&D for fucking shit up but not mentioning it directly, but lately he's in the fuck D&D 5E camp he's in it for himself now.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
From what I've seen it's more like the Simposphere. But she's not encouraging them.
Honestly this whole thing seems to me to be a culture clash issue. She grew up playing 2e or whatever, but never got into the OSR, she went into 5e. She did a lot of stuff with 5e and knows that culture. That's a culture full of influencers, where pretty people who talk well are the most powerful in the hierarchy (and there's definitely a hierarchy) and it's all about the grifting of the Current Thing, and consooming what the Influencers tell you is so hot right now.
In other words, a shallow, infantile toxic hierarchy.
Whereas the OSR is a counter-culture. Nothing about you matters (not race, age, sex, gender, sexuality, how good you look, how many twitch followers you have, anything) except how well you design games. And the culture is not a top-down culture like 5e's where influencers tell you what to like and you buy it, it's a non-hierarchical MERITOCRACY, where the people who are the coolest designers have the most clout but there's no pope or king, and ANY attempt to generate buzz with anything other than being a great designer looks "phoney" to us.
So she came in here, wanting to unite 5e and OSR, but her entire Marketing agenda was TOTAL 5E. It was all about influencers and fake buzz. It wasn't about talking about design influences and stuff. In fact she so doesn't understand how that works in the OSR that when I suggested that a lot of the stuff she has in her game (random leveling, spell checks, random background events, etc etc) are in Lion & Dragon, she took that as if I was accusing her of a crime rather than expressing pride at how some of my design ideas are being redone by someone else in new and interesting ways.
So is there a danger in all this? Yes. In theory, Shadowdark could end up drawing in thousands of new people into the OSR, but who are essentially immigrants from 5e culture and the mentalities of their toxic "5e Community". They'll bring wokeness, the idea that popular twitch actors or youtube influencers who have never produced a single mechanic are the equals or even superiors of the actual designers, and a culture that demands "niceness" and thus turns the kind of constant criticisms we make of each other's products in the OSR into "hate speech" that can't be allowed (destroying creators' ability to improve their skills). You might think that's exaggeration, but look at the thousands of tweets from people saying that actually "reviews" like dungeoncrafts that only say NICE things are way better than MEAN ones because "we need to support each other and not be triggering" or whatever. OMG LOL, etc etc
So the OSR does have to be careful here, and put its foot down. Starting with a RESOUNDING CONDEMNATION of paid reviews. There's no such thing as a "paid review": there's a Review (unpaid) or there a FUCKING INFOMERCIAL.
Also, reject in every way anyone who claims to be an influencer but has never produced a successful game. Those people will be absolute poison to the OSR.
I agree. I think the thing we have to do is what we've said we always should have done. If this game converts 5e players, great. But, we gatekeep the shite outta the 5e mentality coming into the OSR culture.
And admit it, there is an OSR culture, whether you like it or not. The OSR, like legionofmyth says about gaming, can be for everybody. That doesn't mean it is for everybody.
Don't bring your gray goo, everyone is the same, mentality to the OSR. Your want that, stay with WotC. In the OSR is archetype, there's racial bonus' and minus'. If you don't like it, don't play in the OSR sandbox.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 04, 2023, 05:21:31 PMIn the OSR is archetype, there's racial bonus' and minus'. If you don't like it, don't play in the OSR sandbox.
BX/BECMI D&D and its OSR derivatives don't have racial attribute mods.
Quote from: S'mon on March 04, 2023, 05:29:49 PM
BX/BECMI D&D and its OSR derivatives don't have racial attribute mods.
Touche. Point still stands though.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 04, 2023, 06:26:43 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 04, 2023, 05:29:49 PM
BX/BECMI D&D and its OSR derivatives don't have racial attribute mods.
Touche. Point still stands though.
How exactly does it still stand? Racial bonuses are absolutely not a necessary part of the archetype.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:37:40 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2023, 09:30:21 AM
Nothing feels off to me. Her content and background as an adventure writer is well established.
I'm sure she is in certain scenes. But if you're from the actual OSR (as opposed to some 5e circles or the garycon grognard crowd), NO ONE had ever heard of her until 3 days ago and suddenly it looked like EVERYWHERE was talking about her game all at once, from a total unknown. It had all the looks of a carefully pre-planned marketing blitz campaign.
Okay, I see that. From an OSR perspective she has come out of nowhere. I do not give any credence to QB, paid review or not. I understand why it is a good business move for the success of the KS.
I skimmed the 60+ page preview on OBS. It reminds me of Five Torches Deep. Not the actual rules, but it has one foot in the OSR, one foot in 5e. It is high quality, no virtue signaling, and had good art/overall feel.
And while it is a good value and it will go down as a very successful KS, there just isn't anything new that compels me to buy it.
Quote from: S'mon on March 04, 2023, 05:29:49 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 04, 2023, 05:21:31 PMIn the OSR is archetype, there's racial bonus' and minus'. If you don't like it, don't play in the OSR sandbox.
BX/BECMI D&D and its OSR derivatives don't have racial attribute mods.
Yes but in their case they have race as class so its a bit of a different ball game.
Quote from: Slambo on March 04, 2023, 07:42:09 PM
Yes but in their case they have race as class so its a bit of a different ball game.
Indeed. And you don't need 'Ancestry' when your Class is Elf! ;D
She goes over her RPG design influences from https://youtu.be/3m6FkPo1QnU?t=3569
Just in case you still doubt she's "True OSR", she includes Stonehell & its author Michael Curtis. Can't get much more OSR than that IMO. Not to mention she was writing Judges Guild licensed published material as a child... more Old School than OSR.
She talks about marketing from https://youtu.be/3m6FkPo1QnU?t=3829 - her wife is a marketing professional. Hence the slickness.
I've got nothing against marketing; or for it (it's all water off a duck's back). But I actually went into DriveThruRPG and search for "Shadowdark." Here's what came out:
- The Nightmare at Castle Goldgloom - Compatible with Shadowdark RPG
- Nightmare Garden of the Space Princess - compatible with Shadowdark RPG
- Kazad Mor: The Cursed Dwarfhome - compatible with Shadowdark RPG
- Soulblight - A Shadowdark Setting
- DARKNESS FIRE BLOOD mini zine adventure - compatible with Shadowdark RPG
- ...
My oh my, how
edgy. I guess if you scroll further down you'll find some gonzo settings for it, but this '90s SUPER RADICAL Goth Metal aesthetics kind of puts me off of it, and it isn't even the quickstart rules!
But maybe I'm subconsciously looking for a problem with the game, so I promise I will at least give the rules a once-through. After all, I can always ignore obnoxious settings, right?
I see the Quickstart is here https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/pages/shadowdark - I'll give it a look, though I'm really not looking for another OSR RPG. I liked the look of the sample pages she showed in the Q&A.
edit: Went through it. Very minimalist style indeed. Not sure if like. ;D
The art's pretty cool, she may have a few good rules (original or not) and I have zero issues with using KS, but I already have a *ton* of great RPG material I'll never use, so I'm passing on this the same way I pass on hundreds of others. I wish her good luck!
Greetings!
Interesting that Kelsey's Shadowdark book has generated more than 600K just in the first three days. She still has 25 days more to go for her Kickstarter, which she started with a initial goal of...10K. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: S'mon on March 04, 2023, 05:29:49 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 04, 2023, 05:21:31 PMIn the OSR is archetype, there's racial bonus' and minus'. If you don't like it, don't play in the OSR sandbox.
BX/BECMI D&D and its OSR derivatives don't have racial attribute mods.
TBF, BX/Becmi has race as class, which still puts one in the mindset of "while these races are human-like in their appearance, their cultures, mindsets, and goals are alien to humanity".
There are no black elves or Asian dwarves, but there are black and Asian humans, because while humanity may not be immortal or have a natural resistance to magic, their strength lies in their adaptability, both physical and mental.
Since I can't comment in the red list thread I'll say it her because it seems the best place to do so:
#GamerGate started because of corrupt and incestuous relationships between the games journos and certain game designers.
The creator of Shadowdark paying to QuestingBeast (and maybe others) to review her game stink to high heaven of the exact same corruption and or incestuous relationships, since I suspect that some of the glowing reviews were due to friendship and not money.
I know it's fashionable to browbeat Pundit but I find myself agreeing with the questions.
Pointing out elements of the game taken from other games isn't a sign of "look, she's profiting from my work!" (I doubt Pundit has that mindset since I TOLD him I was taking his monkey people for my Mayan game and he NEVER mentioned crediting him or anything), it's a sign that it's not a product of her mind alone.
Several people here and on mewe have agreed the game doesn't seem all that innovative, so why all the glowing reviews?
I think this is a fair question.
It is a dumb question when aimed at the Kickstarter which everyone expects to have glowing marketing videos on the campaign page. Right down to the friends and family push. No one expects that the Kickstarter page has anything but fluff marketing videos so there is zero corruption there.
If you want to mount up and tilt at windmills, go ask Questing Beast why he does not label his reviews as paid as per the FCC rules. Especially if he includes affiliate links.
If you are going to huff and puff about the Kickstarter, then you are just showing that you lack sophistication and ability to parse reality.
Is getting a free copy of the item to be reviewed low-scale payola or just the way most reviews work?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2023, 09:08:17 PM
Since I can't comment in the red list thread I'll say it her because it seems the best place to do so:
#GamerGate started because of corrupt and incestuous relationships between the games journos and certain game designers.
The creator of Shadowdark paying to QuestingBeast (and maybe others) to review her game stink to high heaven of the exact same corruption and or incestuous relationships, since I suspect that some of the glowing reviews were due to friendship and not money.
I know it's fashionable to browbeat Pundit but I find myself agreeing with the questions.
Pointing out elements of the game taken from other games isn't a sign of "look, she's profiting from my work!" (I doubt Pundit has that mindset since I TOLD him I was taking his monkey people for my Mayan game and he NEVER mentioned crediting him or anything), it's a sign that it's not a product of her mind alone.
Several people here and on mewe have agreed the game doesn't seem all that innovative, so why all the glowing reviews?
I think this is a fair question.
Greetings!
Interesting, GeekyBugle!
As far as Kelsey's Shadowdark promotion and marketing goes--and the numerous glowing reviews--I don't think there is anything nefarious or corrupt going on. Questing Beast requires everyone to payfor reviews, as I understand. Professor Dungeon Master, of Dungeon Craft, has a long-standing policy of only reviewing games that he likes. Why? Because, as he has explained, he doesn't want to waste his time on products that he doesn't enjoy. He also doesn't get any satisfaction or enjoyment from being negative. So, there you go. That seems reasonable to me. Runehammer, another game designer and YouTube content creator--famous for ICRPG--is also an artist. Furthermore, he is also one of the artists involved with doing work for Shadowdark. THEN--all three of them are also personal friends with Kelsey of Shadowdark. I would think that anyone would want their friends to support their efforts and products. So, that all seems reasonable to me as well. As far as accuracy and preference goes, well, how have you reacted to previous reviews and recommendations by any of the above? Dave Thaumavore has also been very positive, as well as DM Bloodworth. In my experience, most of these people have long demonstrated preferences and appreciation for games, styles, and rules that I myself enjoy. To me, that is most important. Having said that, these individual's have a long and pretty solid track record as far as I am concerned. That doesn't mean that I always agree with them--but I look at their long-term consistency, over time.
It is a relatively small community and industry. Some people are far better and more skilled at making friends and socializing with others. Meanwhile, others are often negative and maladjusted, and don't have many friends, or people that enjoy working with them. People that are friendly, and nice, and sociable are generally more successful or at least succeed more easily and faster--than people who simply aren't. That being a reality doesn't mean that some people simply must be nefarious, incestuous, and otherwise corrupt.
Concerning the game--indeed, much of it is not particularly new, or absolutely original. As I've said before, most ideas have inspired everyone else, and you have many people arriving at similar conclusions--just getting to the destination may have been different. I think the real appreciation for Shadowdark comes from several factors--the wonderful artwork; the crisp layout; the terse, and direct presentation; and the gathering together of a dozen different ideas and elements from a dozen and more sources--OSE, AD&D, OD&D, DCC, Five Torches Deep, Deathbringer, ICRPG--and presenting them all with her own spin and interpretation, all in ONE BOOK. Then, you add on cool advertising videos, and a slick marketing campaign, and that all adds up to a very popular game product.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2023, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2023, 09:08:17 PM
Since I can't comment in the red list thread I'll say it her because it seems the best place to do so:
#GamerGate started because of corrupt and incestuous relationships between the games journos and certain game designers.
The creator of Shadowdark paying to QuestingBeast (and maybe others) to review her game stink to high heaven of the exact same corruption and or incestuous relationships, since I suspect that some of the glowing reviews were due to friendship and not money.
I know it's fashionable to browbeat Pundit but I find myself agreeing with the questions.
Pointing out elements of the game taken from other games isn't a sign of "look, she's profiting from my work!" (I doubt Pundit has that mindset since I TOLD him I was taking his monkey people for my Mayan game and he NEVER mentioned crediting him or anything), it's a sign that it's not a product of her mind alone.
Several people here and on mewe have agreed the game doesn't seem all that innovative, so why all the glowing reviews?
I think this is a fair question.
Greetings!
Interesting, GeekyBugle!
As far as Kelsey's Shadowdark promotion and marketing goes--and the numerous glowing reviews--I don't think there is anything nefarious or corrupt going on. Questing Beast requires everyone to payfor reviews, as I understand. Professor Dungeon Master, of Dungeon Craft, has a long-standing policy of only reviewing games that he likes. Why? Because, as he has explained, he doesn't want to waste his time on products that he doesn't enjoy. He also doesn't get any satisfaction or enjoyment from being negative. So, there you go. That seems reasonable to me. Runehammer, another game designer and YouTube content creator--famous for ICRPG--is also an artist. Furthermore, he is also one of the artists involved with doing work for Shadowdark. THEN--all three of them are also personal friends with Kelsey of Shadowdark. I would think that anyone would want their friends to support their efforts and products. So, that all seems reasonable to me as well. As far as accuracy and preference goes, well, how have you reacted to previous reviews and recommendations by any of the above? Dave Thaumavore has also been very positive, as well as DM Bloodworth. In my experience, most of these people have long demonstrated preferences and appreciation for games, styles, and rules that I myself enjoy. To me, that is most important. Having said that, these individual's have a long and pretty solid track record as far as I am concerned. That doesn't mean that I always agree with them--but I look at their long-term consistency, over time.
It is a relatively small community and industry. Some people are far better and more skilled at making friends and socializing with others. Meanwhile, others are often negative and maladjusted, and don't have many friends, or people that enjoy working with them. People that are friendly, and nice, and sociable are generally more successful or at least succeed more easily and faster--than people who simply aren't. That being a reality doesn't mean that some people simply must be nefarious, incestuous, and otherwise corrupt.
Concerning the game--indeed, much of it is not particularly new, or absolutely original. As I've said before, most ideas have inspired everyone else, and you have many people arriving at similar conclusions--just getting to the destination may have been different. I think the real appreciation for Shadowdark comes from several factors--the wonderful artwork; the crisp layout; the terse, and direct presentation; and the gathering together of a dozen different ideas and elements from a dozen and more sources--OSE, AD&D, OD&D, DCC, Five Torches Deep, Deathbringer, ICRPG--and presenting them all with her own spin and interpretation, all in ONE BOOK. Then, you add on cool advertising videos, and a slick marketing campaign, and that all adds up to a very popular game product.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Game Journos were also giving glowing reviews to the games by their friends.
It's still corruption (Nepotism), even if no money changed hands, the fact that QB charges everyone for his reviews doesn't make it any better on his part, in fact it makes it worst.
No, you are just remaining dumb.
If you have an issue with Questing Beast maybe breaking FCC rules, take it up with him. Or narc him out to the FCC as they monitor nothing. Zero traction on the KS itself.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on March 05, 2023, 10:55:42 PM
No, you are just remaining dumb.
If you have an issue with Questing Beast maybe breaking FCC rules, take it up with him. Or narc him out to the FCC as they monitor nothing. Zero traction on the KS itself.
"All your bases are belong to us"
Yet you dare call other's dumb.
As for the second paragraph: WTAF?
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on March 05, 2023, 10:05:11 PM
It is a dumb question when aimed at the Kickstarter which everyone expects to have glowing marketing videos on the campaign page. Right down to the friends and family push. No one expects that the Kickstarter page has anything but fluff marketing videos so there is zero corruption there.
If you want to mount up and tilt at windmills, go ask Questing Beast why he does not label his reviews as paid as per the FCC rules. Especially if he includes affiliate links.
If you are going to huff and puff about the Kickstarter, then you are just showing that you lack sophistication and ability to parse reality.
he does label them as paid, or at least youtube does. Theres a little banner at the beginimg of the video. I only noticed thanks to this issue that its included on moat if hia recent videos. Some have some shirt company aponsoring but i assume the videos where he never mentions a sponsor are paid reviews since the paid promotion banner still appears.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on March 05, 2023, 10:05:11 PM
It is a dumb question when aimed at the Kickstarter which everyone expects to have glowing marketing videos on the campaign page. Right down to the friends and family push. No one expects that the Kickstarter page has anything but fluff marketing videos so there is zero corruption there.
If you want to mount up and tilt at windmills, go ask Questing Beast why he does not label his reviews as paid as per the FCC rules. Especially if he includes affiliate links.
If you are going to huff and puff about the Kickstarter, then you are just showing that you lack sophistication and ability to parse reality.
Who said ANYTHING about KS? Not me!
As for QB, yes, he should tell upfront it's an infomercial and not a review, FCC or not FCC it's a matter of integrity, something I guess you're way too sophisticated to have or understand.
Who said anything about the fucking kickstarter!?
Have you finished white knighting? She's not gonna fuck you dude, or maybe it's QB you're simping for?
Quote from: Ruprecht on March 05, 2023, 10:11:06 PM
Is getting a free copy of the item to be reviewed low-scale payola or just the way most reviews work?
That's regarded as legitimate, but should still be disclosed during the review. I was just watching a review of Army Painter Speedpaints, the reviewer disclosed she got the sample bottles free from Army Painter. I have no problem with that and it's very common. I don't think $50 or $400 to do a review is the same thing.
Quote from: Chainsaw on March 05, 2023, 07:25:56 PM
The art's pretty cool, she may have a few good rules (original or not) and I have zero issues with using KS, but I already have a *ton* of great RPG material I'll never use, so I'm passing on this the same way I pass on hundreds of others. I wish her good luck!
My impression from the Quickstart is - nice art, several interesting rules tweaks on OD&D/OSR norms, and a very minimalist writing style that is practically Haiku-like. I find the GM & play advice the most interesting thing and I intend to refer to it for ideas. But basically this is still just another OSR near-clone. And the Kickstarter pledge levels are notably high; much higher than I'd be interested in supporting.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 01, 2023, 10:24:18 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 01, 2023, 10:14:05 AM
The whole torch burning for an hour in real time that these youtubers seem to thing is gold is just stupid. No race....er ancestries have darkvision thing I don't particularly care for either.
I appreciate the attempt to grapple with the issue of making light sources interesting again, which is what it comes off as to me. The only thing I don't like about it is that if I ever publish, people will think I copied that idea from Shadowdark, when in fact I've had no races with night vision of any kind (bar one with mild adjustment for the standard poor light penalties) since the start of my testing over a year ago.
In all fairness, the "characters with no night vision" thing traces back to OD&D in 1974. Arneson didn't give PCs any sort of night vision and if they hired a monster then the monster lost its darkvision. He wanted the dark to seem mysterious and dangerous from the get-go.
Quote from: finarvyn on March 06, 2023, 06:09:47 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 01, 2023, 10:24:18 AM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 01, 2023, 10:14:05 AM
The whole torch burning for an hour in real time that these youtubers seem to thing is gold is just stupid. No race....er ancestries have darkvision thing I don't particularly care for either.
I appreciate the attempt to grapple with the issue of making light sources interesting again, which is what it comes off as to me. The only thing I don't like about it is that if I ever publish, people will think I copied that idea from Shadowdark, when in fact I've had no races with night vision of any kind (bar one with mild adjustment for the standard poor light penalties) since the start of my testing over a year ago.
In all fairness, the "characters with no night vision" thing traces back to OD&D in 1974. Arneson didn't give PCs any sort of night vision and if they hired a monster then the monster lost its darkvision. He wanted the dark to seem mysterious and dangerous from the get-go.
Absolutely. My difference is that that most races don't have it at all. It's not just that they lose it. Thus there are sometimes light sources in the dungeon, because the goblins or whatever also need them. But more broadly, the kind of person who would assume "influence" from Shadowdark wouldn't know any of that.
Note, this is nothing against Shadowdark or its creator. It's not her fault that some of her buyers will be shallow and/or ignorant. :)
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on March 05, 2023, 08:49:49 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 04, 2023, 05:29:49 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 04, 2023, 05:21:31 PMIn the OSR is archetype, there's racial bonus' and minus'. If you don't like it, don't play in the OSR sandbox.
BX/BECMI D&D and its OSR derivatives don't have racial attribute mods.
TBF, BX/Becmi has race as class, which still puts one in the mindset of "while these races are human-like in their appearance, their cultures, mindsets, and goals are alien to humanity".
There are no black elves or Asian dwarves, but there are black and Asian humans, because while humanity may not be immortal or have a natural resistance to magic, their strength lies in their adaptability, both physical and mental.
The original argument is without racial attribute mods, it doesn't match the OSR archetype. The add-on was around grey-goo races (or ancestries in this case).
Bringing up race as class is shifting goalposts. But fine, they shifted, so...OD&D does not have racial attribute modifications. OD&D also does not have race as class.
In the countless OSR sacred cow debates, you will see things around the original six attributes, AC, saving throws, reaction rolls, some debate vancian magic, etc. Nobody says, Elves must get +1 dexterity, -1 constitution.
Also, Shadowdark has racial bonuses. Just not to attributes.
And just to be clear, I am not purchasing Shadowdark. It looks like a good product, but I already have good products in this area, namely OD&D :)
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 04, 2023, 05:21:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
From what I've seen it's more like the Simposphere. But she's not encouraging them.
Honestly this whole thing seems to me to be a culture clash issue. She grew up playing 2e or whatever, but never got into the OSR, she went into 5e. She did a lot of stuff with 5e and knows that culture. That's a culture full of influencers, where pretty people who talk well are the most powerful in the hierarchy (and there's definitely a hierarchy) and it's all about the grifting of the Current Thing, and consooming what the Influencers tell you is so hot right now.
In other words, a shallow, infantile toxic hierarchy.
Whereas the OSR is a counter-culture. Nothing about you matters (not race, age, sex, gender, sexuality, how good you look, how many twitch followers you have, anything) except how well you design games. And the culture is not a top-down culture like 5e's where influencers tell you what to like and you buy it, it's a non-hierarchical MERITOCRACY, where the people who are the coolest designers have the most clout but there's no pope or king, and ANY attempt to generate buzz with anything other than being a great designer looks "phoney" to us.
So she came in here, wanting to unite 5e and OSR, but her entire Marketing agenda was TOTAL 5E. It was all about influencers and fake buzz. It wasn't about talking about design influences and stuff. In fact she so doesn't understand how that works in the OSR that when I suggested that a lot of the stuff she has in her game (random leveling, spell checks, random background events, etc etc) are in Lion & Dragon, she took that as if I was accusing her of a crime rather than expressing pride at how some of my design ideas are being redone by someone else in new and interesting ways.
So is there a danger in all this? Yes. In theory, Shadowdark could end up drawing in thousands of new people into the OSR, but who are essentially immigrants from 5e culture and the mentalities of their toxic "5e Community". They'll bring wokeness, the idea that popular twitch actors or youtube influencers who have never produced a single mechanic are the equals or even superiors of the actual designers, and a culture that demands "niceness" and thus turns the kind of constant criticisms we make of each other's products in the OSR into "hate speech" that can't be allowed (destroying creators' ability to improve their skills). You might think that's exaggeration, but look at the thousands of tweets from people saying that actually "reviews" like dungeoncrafts that only say NICE things are way better than MEAN ones because "we need to support each other and not be triggering" or whatever. OMG LOL, etc etc
So the OSR does have to be careful here, and put its foot down. Starting with a RESOUNDING CONDEMNATION of paid reviews. There's no such thing as a "paid review": there's a Review (unpaid) or there a FUCKING INFOMERCIAL.
Also, reject in every way anyone who claims to be an influencer but has never produced a successful game. Those people will be absolute poison to the OSR.
I agree. I think the thing we have to do is what we've said we always should have done. If this game converts 5e players, great. But, we gatekeep the shite outta the 5e mentality coming into the OSR culture.
And admit it, there is an OSR culture, whether you like it or not. The OSR, like legionofmyth says about gaming, can be for everybody. That doesn't mean it is for everybody.
Don't bring your gray goo, everyone is the same, mentality to the OSR. Your want that, stay with WotC. In the OSR is archetype, there's racial bonus' and minus'. If you don't like it, don't play in the OSR sandbox.
There's a culture of how OSR designers interact with each other and promote their own and each other's work. What there is NOT is a "Community", which is a dogwhistle for a situation where people create an artificial hierarchy run not by the people most competent at design but by celebrity and influence, and demand that the hobby kowtow to them in the name of all kinds of groups including many that don't even play the game, much less design.
Quote from: Ruprecht on March 05, 2023, 10:11:06 PM
Is getting a free copy of the item to be reviewed low-scale payola or just the way most reviews work?
The simple answer to that question is that it is standard procedure that a publisher send a review copy at their expense, and it is understood that this does not include any requirement of favoritism from the reviewer.
There are some complexities though, because it certainly seems like certain companies send things for "review" (in the RPG field, WotC) with the understanding that you must do a glowingly favorable review if they're ever going to send you more "merch" again (outside the hobby other companies apparently do this with youtubers as well, like Disney).
Quote from: S'mon on March 06, 2023, 02:35:24 AM
Quote from: Ruprecht on March 05, 2023, 10:11:06 PM
Is getting a free copy of the item to be reviewed low-scale payola or just the way most reviews work?
That's regarded as legitimate, but should still be disclosed during the review. I was just watching a review of Army Painter Speedpaints, the reviewer disclosed she got the sample bottles free from Army Painter. I have no problem with that and it's very common. I don't think $50 or $400 to do a review is the same thing.
Yes; for example I make it clear that anyone who wants me to do a review must send a print edition of the actual final commercial product. Partly I did this because if I was reviewing PDFs I'd have a waiting list so long people would see their babies get to college before my review would be out, but also because this avoids any indication of partiality or favoritism that could be generated by someone sending me a print copy rather than "just" a PDF (or to accidentally create the impression of that expectation among publishers).
For me it's just been amusing to watch all the lemmings on Youtube trip over themselves proclaiming the designer the Messiah of gaming and gushing over what's essentially just another set of house rules. She's just done what most of us already do and cobble a bunch of other people's ideas together. Good for her. As for the presentation, whatever. It's not an aesthetic that I find particularly interesting. In fact it kind of evokes some of those annoying pseudo-edgy products from the 90s, as another poster here noted.
But hey, it's your money. Do what you want with it.
Also, to build on the point Pundit made, I'm a book review editor for an academic journal. We never pay for copies of the books we review. Sometimes I contact the publisher for a review copy and sometimes they just send them to me because their books fit our scope. Because these are academic books often with small print runs, they can cost over $100, but that's just how it works.
When it comes to reviewers, however, I assign them and do not allow people to choose books to review, for either good or bad reasons. And it's generally considered poor practice for people to review books in which they have either already assisted the author or reviewed it/endorsed it for the publisher or have a personal grudge against the author. In fact, publishers often ask the author if there are people who should be avoided in the review process. This doesn't mean such things never happen, but the standard is to assure reviews based solely on the book's merits, not personal factors. Academia being what it is, biases do come in and there's definitely a prevailing Leftist slant in the field which tends to be reflected in industry awards decisions.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 06, 2023, 09:31:32 AM
For me it's just been amusing to watch all the lemmings on Youtube trip over themselves proclaiming the designer the Messiah of gaming and gushing over what's essentially just another set of house rules. She's just done what most of us already do and cobble a bunch of other people's ideas together. Good for her. As for the presentation, whatever. It's not an aesthetic that I find particularly interesting. In fact it kind of evokes some of those annoying pseudo-edgy products from the 90s, as another poster here noted.
But hey, it's your money. Do what you want with it.
Indeed. I agree with this completely.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 06, 2023, 09:17:27 AM
There's a culture of how OSR designers interact with each other and promote their own and each other's work. What there is NOT is a "Community", which is a dogwhistle for a situation where people create an artificial hierarchy run not by the people most competent at design but by celebrity and influence, and demand that the hobby kowtow to them in the name of all kinds of groups including many that don't even play the game, much less design.
Yeah, this. There is not a "Community" like you said. The whole crap where there is the hierarchy.
One thing about paid book reviews, ect there are plenty of authors who do it. So it's a thing.... Whether or not you'll get a completely honest review is another and that's up to you to decide.
Personally, I'll never listen to just one review as I said earlier. And if it's paid there will be an obvious bias. I've no problem with authors and designers trying to help each other out the OSR does that too (which is a good thing).
That said, I backed Shadowdark on the merits of the game (from what I heard and read at the time). And I'm still pretty stoked about my purchase the more hear about it.
But I think Ben is a bit mean for doing a 'pay' for review. That's not something that I'd ever do myself if I had a sizable youtube chan. If I was approached by an author and I thought the game was good then I'd be more than happy to bring it out in the open (because I'd be excited about it too). I've lost a bit of respect for questing beast.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 06, 2023, 10:45:23 AM
One thing about paid book reviews, ect there are plenty of authors who do it. So it's a thing.... Whether or not you'll get a completely honest review is another and that's up to you to decide.
Indeed, and I'm mildly baffled by anyone caring if a product review is "honest" or not. When I watch a review, I'm in it for the product details, and only interested in the reviewer's own opinion as far as the specific reasons for that opinion are explained ... so that I can form my own opinion.
I couldn't care less if the reviewer lies about liking it
themselves.
Quote from: Zalman on March 06, 2023, 11:20:18 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 06, 2023, 10:45:23 AM
One thing about paid book reviews, ect there are plenty of authors who do it. So it's a thing.... Whether or not you'll get a completely honest review is another and that's up to you to decide.
Indeed, and I'm mildly baffled by anyone caring if a product review is "honest" or not. When I watch a review, I'm in it for the product details, and only interested in the reviewer's own opinion as far as the specific reasons for that opinion are explained ... so that I can form my own opinion.
I couldn't care less if the reviewer lies about liking it themselves.
Exactly, content is king... I'll make my own mind up when I've been provided the info about the product. There are probably only one or two reviewers that I actually take seriously, mainly because they have the same taste as myself - So it's a pretty sure bet.
So people are crucifying a new OSR designer over an admitted paid review, while product placement and comarketing of D&D in Stranger Things is like "wow, D&D hits me the feels man."
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 06, 2023, 10:45:23 AM
One thing about paid book reviews, ect there are plenty of authors who do it. So it's a thing.... Whether or not you'll get a completely honest review is another and that's up to you to decide.
Personally, I'll never listen to just one review as I said earlier. And if it's paid there will be an obvious bias. I've no problem with authors and designers trying to help each other out the OSR does that too (which is a good thing).
That said, I backed Shadowdark on the merits of the game (from what I heard and read at the time). And I'm still pretty stoked about my purchase the more hear about it.
But I think Ben is a bit mean for doing a 'pay' for review. That's not something that I'd ever do myself if I had a sizable youtube chan. If I was approached by an author and I thought the game was good then I'd be more than happy to bring it out in the open (because I'd be excited about it too). I've lost a bit of respect for questing beast.
What bothers me is that he is supposedly friends with Kelsey and he still made her pay. I mean i respect the grind but it seems a little mean.
Quote from: Slambo on March 06, 2023, 01:26:12 PM
What bothers me is that he is supposedly friends with Kelsey
Yeah, Ben seems like a bit of a wanker at this point. Personally, I'd be only too happy to help out a mate with getting a product off the ground.
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 06, 2023, 01:15:09 PM
So people are crucifying a new OSR designer over an admitted paid review, while product placement and comarketing of D&D in Stranger Things is like "wow, D&D hits me the feels man."
The treatment of Shadowdark feels a little harsh and suspicious, but I don't think most of the people on this board are exactly fans of how WotC has been marketing D&D--or anything else they've done with it--for the past 15+ years. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 06, 2023, 01:57:49 PM
The treatment of Shadowdark feels a little harsh and suspicious
I feel Pundit is one of those people, like Peter Tatchell & Julie Bindel (I read a lot of UnHerd), who are often asshats, but whose existence is necessary for the Cosmic Balance. In this case I feel that by any normal standards he was overly harsh & obnoxious to Arcane Library & Prof DM. BUT still, by doing what he did, he raised the issue of paid reviewing in the OSR. And I agree that it's not OK.
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 06, 2023, 01:15:09 PM
So people are crucifying a new OSR designer over an admitted paid review, while product placement and comarketing of D&D in Stranger Things is like "wow, D&D hits me the feels man."
If anybody is being crucified in this thread, it's QB. As for Kelsey, even Pundit who's a
bona fide curmudgeon says her work is solid. There is nothing particularly new, but there is very little that is actually new in the OSR — most games simply remix what is already there and put a new spin on and old mechanic. There may be some people turning their noses at the aesthetics, but to be completely frank, most of the really edgy-looking stuff are third-party materials and settings for it (even though it's not officially out yet, there are already at least two campaign settings for it with splatbooks for the settings already). The quickstart rules are kind of heavy on darkness and light mechanics, but the idea is that the darkness is beatable, if I understood the GM notes on design ethos.
On the other hand, if we're talking about edgy, there is always WFRP, and sometimes it looks like half this board like it better than their own first born, so there is definitely a market for edgy...
This is not about a paid review(s). The videos are Kickstarter marketing and should be read in that context. Anything on the face of a Kickstarter is marketing and never read it as a neutral, third party review.
If Questing Beast generally requires that creators pay him to do a review and does not disclose it in the review, then they may have an issue, but I am not sure that a promotional video for a Kickstarter falls into a "review" classification.
Pundit missed the mark, plain and simple. I generally find him to not miss the mark often at all even when I don't agree with the extreme he takes his opinion (albeit presented as a YouTube video where bland does not sell). However, this one was a swing and a miss.
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2023, 10:26:04 PM
...
As far as Kelsey's Shadowdark promotion and marketing goes--and the numerous glowing reviews--I don't think there is anything nefarious or corrupt going on. Questing Beast requires everyone to payfor reviews, as I understand.
Which makes them non-reviews.
He's doing infomercials.
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2023, 10:26:04 PM
Runehammer, another game designer and YouTube content creator--famous for ICRPG--is also an artist. Furthermore, he is also one of the artists involved with doing work for Shadowdark. THEN--all three of them are also personal friends with Kelsey of Shadowdark. I would think that anyone would want their friends to support their efforts and products. ...
It's fine so long as they say upfront that they are promoting the game for their friend.
But still Infomercial promotions, not reviews.
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2023, 10:26:04 PM
Professor Dungeon Master, of Dungeon Craft, has a long-standing policy of only reviewing games that he likes. Why? Because, as he has explained, he doesn't want to waste his time on products that he doesn't enjoy. He also doesn't get any satisfaction or enjoyment from being negative. So, there you go. That seems reasonable to me.
While I get why he may only want to do 'positive reviews', that also makes them infomercials by default, and not reviews.
His reviews of WHFRP 4e, and the Witcher RPG are two prime examples:
He gives both positive reviews while mentioning nothing negative about the games. But...
There are known issues with both game systems! They were readily apparent to me just reading through them. PDM glossing over such issues does no service to his audience that may then buy a game that they otherwise wouldn't, had they known of the games issues that a proper review would have drawn notice to.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 06, 2023, 09:22:08 AM
...
There are some complexities though, because it certainly seems like certain companies send things for "review" (in the RPG field, WotC) with the understanding that you must do a glowingly favorable review if they're ever going to send you more "merch" again (outside the hobby other companies apparently do this with youtubers as well, like Disney).
This kind of thing is exactly why Gun Tests Magazine exists.
The rising popularity and 'mainstreaming' of D&D is starting to create lots of parallels with other industries.
You will never find a gun magazine that accepts ads from gun manufacturers, that will ever give any firearm a bad review.
Things have gotten a bit better with the internet, as gun mags have had to compete in other areas. But the more that gun magazines - or anyone rely on the money coming from the industry that they are supposed to review - the less independence they have to be honest in their opinions.
Gun Tests Magazine's whole shtick is that they accept no ads from gun makers. So you get honest reviews, but they are also harder to find on your typical magazine rack that carries gun magazines. Funny how that works...
If you are dependent on access, or take money to review a product from the people that make it - the people that make the product have a vote in what you can say about it.
Pundit is spot on to point these practices out as a BAD THING, because these practices have become the norm in other 'mainstream' hobbyist sphere's. To their detriment.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2023, 02:35:39 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 05, 2023, 10:26:04 PM
As far as Kelsey's Shadowdark promotion and marketing goes--and the numerous glowing reviews--I don't think there is anything nefarious or corrupt going on. Questing Beast requires everyone to payfor reviews, as I understand.
Which makes them non-reviews.
He's doing infomercials.
Questing Beast claims that he takes payment to do a review, but still gives his honest opinion of the game. I don't know his reviews at all, so I don't claim whether this is true. However,
if he is telling the truth, then there is a difference between his reviews and an informercial. It is an ethical bias, but so are other common cases like:
1) The review comes with a free gift - usually the product itself. Just like money, this can benefit the reviewer so they get more free stuff in the future if they give more positive reviews.
2) The reviewed product is by a friend or business associate. The reviewer will benefit indirectly by helping their friends and associates.
3) The reviewed product is something the reviewer themselves worked on. Even if paid up front, it clearly benefits the reviewer if their own products do better in the market.
I think the most important thing is to disclose if there is any such potential bias. All of these (#1 through #3) are very common in the industry as far as I've seen. I'm not sure how common sponsored reviews are, where the reviewer is directly paid.
Greetings!
Well, I think many people define "Review" in different ways. It seems to be applied very flexibly in a variety of topics and subject matter. *Shrugs* It is what it is. Personally, I'm quite familiar with the standards embraced and expected in professional, Academic Reviews.
When it comes to movies, pop-fantasy books, or hobbies like RPG's, I expect that the "Review" is more of an "Infomercial" than some kind of professional, academic review. I've also seen this as a common dynamic in paint reviews, miniatures, and on and on. I expect everyone in these kinds of circles to be biased and I don't expect them to vigorously embrace professional academic review standards taught to me at my university. I'm also not surprised that people desire to be paid or somehow rewarded for their time. It seems like everyone is getting paid, given free merchandise, little kickbacks and other goodies. I expect that everyone involved in these circles benefits from such, everyday and in every way possible. ;D
I don't expect people to know what professional academic review standards are--nor do they care. No one would give a fuck if I thought it was actually important. They would likely tell me, "If you like the product, if you agree with my take on it, great. If you don't, go fuck yourself." So, I just let people define "Review" however they choose to express it. Whatever. At the end of the day, it is myself that looks at a particular product, whether it is a paint set, a box of miniatures, an RPG game book, and decide to buy it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on March 06, 2023, 03:42:07 PM
Questing Beast claims that he takes payment to do a review, but still gives his honest opinion of the game. I don't know his reviews at all, so I don't claim whether this is true. However, if he is telling the truth, then there is a difference between his reviews and an informercial. It is an ethical bias, but so are other common cases like:
...
The former makes the latter impossible. He is lying to himself.
If you take money you will moderate your response in some manner, because the people sending you money will eventually vote with their wallets if you don't.
Quote from: SHARK on March 06, 2023, 03:48:15 PM
When it comes to movies, pop-fantasy books, or hobbies like RPG's, I expect that the "Review" is more of an "Infomercial" ...
... I'm also not surprised that people desire to be paid or somehow rewarded for their time. It seems like everyone is getting paid, given free merchandise, little kickbacks and other goodies. I expect that everyone involved in these circles benefits from such, everyday and in every way possible. ;D
...
As these practices become more pervasive in the hobby, they should also be pointed out and made widly known.
And as we have seen in this recent kerfuffle; you will not receive any thank yous from those indulging in said practices by doing so.
Thinking about this more, and reading the other comments, I have to say I don't blame Kelsey or any content creator who pays for reviews in order to market their product. If I created something, was going to release a KS, and I could toss some dude $50 for a paid review to get additional reach, I would.
Reviewers should always disclose pay, relationship, etc. If they don't, that is on them and they are wrong. If they are using their status as influencers to make money for a scam or a bad product, they are also wrong.
Here is a clear example of something shady...Pfizer.
Jean Smart, Michael Phelps, Questlove, and Pink are scumbags. They are taking money to promote product that very likely hurts and possibly kills people. There is no way they are not aware of the science at this point.
In the above case, I hold both Pfizer and the people expanding Pfizer's reach accountable. But in Kelsey's case, because there is nothing ethically wrong with her product, the only people on the hook are the reviewers themselves. And as long as they fully disclose, more power to them.
I am smart enough for myself to understand that friends or people who are paid for reviews are going to pile on the praise, and I am also smart enough to factor that out.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2023, 04:26:37 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 06, 2023, 03:42:07 PM
Questing Beast claims that he takes payment to do a review, but still gives his honest opinion of the game. I don't know his reviews at all, so I don't claim whether this is true. However, if he is telling the truth, then there is a difference between his reviews and an informercial. It is an ethical bias, but so are other common cases like:
...
The former makes the latter impossible. He is lying to himself.
If you take money you will moderate your response in some manner, because the people sending you money will eventually vote with their wallets if you don't.
What about the other common cases that I mentioend: reviews for free stuff, reviews for friends/associates, and reviews for products that you yourself worked on?
I think all such potential biases should be declared in a review. And I also think that people should find less value in them.
As long as the bias is openly declared, I don't think it is unethical. But pure, unbiased reviews should be more sought after. If customers don't do that, then the culture needs to shift to more informed customers.
---
But the biggest thing is that given how common all of these are, I don't think singling out one product like Shadowdark makes sense. It shouldn't be seen as an individual problem with the Shadowdark creators, but a bigger cultural problem.
Quote from: jhkim on March 06, 2023, 03:42:07 PM
1) The review comes with a free gift - usually the product itself. Just like money, this can benefit the reviewer so they get more free stuff in the future if they give more positive reviews.
Almost all the major, fan ran, rpg facebook groups work this way. The publishers hand out new products to the page owners like candy, as long as those positive affirmations keep rolling in and the dissenters are squelched or banned.
Quote from: jhkim on March 06, 2023, 04:42:15 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2023, 04:26:37 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 06, 2023, 03:42:07 PM
Questing Beast claims that he takes payment to do a review, but still gives his honest opinion of the game. I don't know his reviews at all, so I don't claim whether this is true. However, if he is telling the truth, then there is a difference between his reviews and an informercial. It is an ethical bias, but so are other common cases like:
...
The former makes the latter impossible. He is lying to himself.
If you take money you will moderate your response in some manner, because the people sending you money will eventually vote with their wallets if you don't.
What about the other common cases that I mentioend: reviews for free stuff, reviews for friends/associates, and reviews for products that you yourself worked on?
I think all such potential biases should be declared in a review. And I also think that people should find less value in them.
As long as the bias is openly declared, I don't think it is unethical. But pure, unbiased reviews should be more sought after. If customers don't do that, then the culture needs to shift to more informed customers.
---
But the biggest thing is that given how common all of these are, I don't think singling out one product like Shadowdark makes sense. It shouldn't be seen as an individual problem with the Shadowdark creators, but a bigger cultural problem.
I'm not sure anyone has a problem with the creator, the product is being mentioned because it has to be when you talk about the % glowing reviews.
The problem is with the reviewers not disclosing upfront (at the start, in big fucking letters) they were paid by and/or are friends with the creator and/or got the book free to review.
Quote from: jhkim on March 06, 2023, 04:42:15 PM
What about the other common cases that I mentioend: reviews for free stuff, reviews for friends/associates, and reviews for products that you yourself worked on?
...
Not reviews.
Infomercials, Promotions for friends, Shilling your own wares.
So long as they are up front about what they are doing, and why - I have no issues.
Quote from: jhkim on March 06, 2023, 04:42:15 PM
But the biggest thing is that given how common all of these are, I don't think singling out one product like Shadowdark makes sense. It shouldn't be seen as an individual problem with the Shadowdark creators, but a bigger cultural problem.
Shadowdark was just a convenient visible example due to its full-court press pro marketing campaign.
The creator's bread and butter was riding the 5e adventure train for years until they said:
"Here's my OSR game + professionally marketed KS..."So it should come a surprise to
no one that many took one look and said:
"WTF!? who is this?"If anything, Pundit's tweets gave them a boost...
At 600K and climbing, they're not hurting.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 06, 2023, 04:32:56 PM
Thinking about this more, and reading the other comments, I have to say I don't blame Kelsey or any content creator who pays for reviews in order to market their product. If I created something, was going to release a KS, and I could toss some dude $50 for a paid review to get additional reach, I would.
Reviewers should always disclose pay, relationship, etc. If they don't, that is on them and they are wrong. If they are using their status as influencers to make money for a scam or a bad product, they are also wrong.
Here is a clear example of something shady...Pfizer.
Jean Smart, Michael Phelps, Questlove, and Pink are scumbags. They are taking money to promote product that very likely hurts and possibly kills people. There is no way they are not aware of the science at this point.
In the above case, I hold both Pfizer and the people expanding Pfizer's reach accountable. But in Kelsey's case, because there is nothing ethically wrong with her product, the only people on the hook are the reviewers themselves. And as long as they fully disclose, more power to them.
I am smart enough for myself to understand that friends or people who are paid for reviews are going to pile on the praise, and I am also smart enough to factor that out.
Correct, as long as the reviewers disclose relationship, payment or getting the product for free to review I have no problem with it, I'll stop watching the ones who get paid because it can't be an unbiased review IMHO.
A friend that gives a glowing review is to be taken with a huge mountain of salt.
The ones who get the product for free should be judged on a case by case basis, if they ALWAYS give good scores and you buy something and find they didn't talk about a problem or bad design choice an asterisk, if it happens again well...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 06, 2023, 05:53:28 PM
Correct, as long as the reviewers disclose relationship, payment or getting the product for free to review I have no problem with it, I'll stop watching the ones who get paid because it can't be an unbiased review IMHO.
A friend that gives a glowing review is to be taken with a huge mountain of salt.
...
I'd go as far to say that they shouldn't even call it a "review".
Nothing wrong with being up-front and saying that you are
Promoting your homies work.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2023, 05:58:29 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 06, 2023, 05:53:28 PM
Correct, as long as the reviewers disclose relationship, payment or getting the product for free to review I have no problem with it, I'll stop watching the ones who get paid because it can't be an unbiased review IMHO.
A friend that gives a glowing review is to be taken with a huge mountain of salt.
...
I'd go as far to say that they shouldn't even call it a "review".
Nothing wrong with being up-front and saying that you are Promoting your homies work.
Pundit has reviewed several of Venger's products, I recall ONE glowing review and others where he's really mean to Venger.
If I only saw the one glowing review knowing they are friends (Pundit discloses it) I would take it with a mountain of salt. Given that I've seen the other reviews I can say you totally CAN honestly review your homie's work.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2023, 02:35:39 PM
While I get why he may only want to do 'positive reviews', that also makes them infomercials by default, and not reviews.
No really... There are quite a few YT channels that only do positive reviews. By that, I mean reviewing stuff they actually like. I'd do that myself... I wouldn't want to waste time reviewing a product that I didn't like. Unless I was deliberately taking the piss out of it.
I definitely value reviewers far more when they give negative reviews. Tenfootpole.org "I bought these adventure and review them so you don't have to" is the obvious go-to example. Bryce's reviews tend to be extremely accurate too, IME.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 06, 2023, 06:18:22 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2023, 02:35:39 PM
While I get why he may only want to do 'positive reviews', that also makes them infomercials by default, and not reviews.
No really... There are quite a few YT channels that only do positive reviews. By that, I mean reviewing stuff they actually like. I'd do that myself... I wouldn't want to waste time reviewing a product that I didn't like. Unless I was deliberately taking the piss out of it.
But here's where that makes things difficult in determining whether I'd like it.
Normally I'd hear about something being mentionefd and then go to Google and type in "
RPG product review".
If people are only reviewing things they like - then there will presumably be a lack of negative reviews (because most people won't be reviewing it), and only be positive reviews (from either fans or 'paid' reviewers). I now need to determine what methodolgy for publication the reviewer uses to know whether this is a paid review (quite possibly less reliable) etc.. I can understand not wanting to 'waste' time on reviewing something I don't like. But if no negative reviews exist, I can't tell whether its because its bad and no-ones reviewing it or its good (hence the good reviews).
Things were so much simpler before things were monetized.
To be honest, I don't really care whether the review is positive or negative. For me, the main thing is how much they show of the actual product. That lets me determine whether I'll likely enjoy it and/or get use out of it. So it's the detail and presentation that matter to me and things that are selling points for some, like the much-vaunted "modern mechanics," are not selling points for me at all. So I watched a couple videos for this and once I actually saw the product, layout, etc., it was an easy pass for me.
I think that, of the Youtuber reviewers, Seth Skorkawsky is the one that does it best. He only reviews things he played, no mere flipping through pages. He will tell you the good, tell you the bad, and tell you how to fix the bad, if you still want to use the product. I don't think he is unbiased—I left the naïve belief of unbiased, objective journalism a long time ago—, but that is not required in a review for me. The thing I am not sure is if he ever did, or if he often does sponsored reviews; I don't even care if they are sponsored, because I never watched a Seth review in which he didn't find something to be fixed. Even when he reviewed his own adventure.
Quote from: zer0th on March 07, 2023, 12:23:21 PM
I think that, of the Youtuber reviewers, Seth Skorkawsky is the one that does it best. He only reviews things he played, no mere flipping through pages. He will tell you the good, tell you the bad, and tell you how to fix the bad, if you still want to use the product. I don't think he is unbiased—I left the naïve belief of unbiased, objective journalism a long time ago—, but that is not required in a review for me. The thing I am not sure is if he ever did, or if he often does sponsored reviews; I don't even care if they are sponsored, because I never watched a Seth review in which he didn't find something to be fixed. Even when he reviewed his own adventure.
He does great reviews. He's one bloke that will definitely get me interested in a game if he likes it. I also prefer that 2012 style of filming - No frills, HD or stupid intro graphics just a dude talking about games.
I definitely like Seth Skorkawsky. Of course he's not really a D&D guy, unlike me. But his stuff on other games/genres is great.
Quote from: S'mon on March 07, 2023, 01:42:28 PM
I definitely like Seth Skorkawsky. Of course he's not really a D&D guy, unlike me. But his stuff on other games/genres is great.
For sure... He likes some dark fantasy stuff as well. That's how I heard about Black Iron. :)
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 07, 2023, 01:45:35 PM
For sure... He likes some dark fantasy stuff as well. That's how I heard about Black Iron. :)
I like his obnoxious player skits. ;D
Quote from: S'mon on March 07, 2023, 03:38:42 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 07, 2023, 01:45:35 PM
For sure... He likes some dark fantasy stuff as well. That's how I heard about Black Iron. :)
I like his obnoxious player skits. ;D
Me too, he is a good channel
Quote from: Persimmon on March 07, 2023, 08:38:52 AM
To be honest, I don't really care whether the review is positive or negative...and once I actually saw the product, layout, etc., it was an easy pass for me.
Likewise, and I wonder how many made their own assessments, since it was freely available, and are part of the horde willing to pay? There's not really any way to know how influential someone else's opinion was in comparison to those folks forming their own. And if a substantial number simply watched a video without availing themselves of the quickstart, well caveat emptor and all that.
I backed the KS at the $249 level because it fullfills a need that meets Old School rules that I grew up playing with modern mechanics that streamline those same said rules since they were introduced nearly 50 years ago. We have advanced in that time and I'm not about to cling to antiquated rules that are clunky and cumbersome just because it's How It Was Done. I want the rules to reflect what we have learned and developed since the White Box to push the game forward while simplifying certain systems (fuck 1E Saves and Theif Skill Checks) because a new methodology was developed.
Shadowdark fits the dungeon crawl "feel" of 1/2E with rules I can throw at my players that they understand, grasp, and utilized in 20minutes without having to reinvent the wheel. Some things can change, some will stay the same, and they can adapt as I push them along. The rules are enough of a delta difference to be intuitive to 5e players with OSR players saying "that works too , it's similiar to BX and OSE".
I tore through her back catalogue of videos to see if this had the making of some undercover wokescold product in disguise. Nothing came up. None of her videos where she talks about her roots in gaming from age 12 in Wisconsin at Gencon then Garycon with having her met EGG in person to her becoming a journalist to switching to a fulltime Adventure Writer. She grew up with 1/2E and moved into 3E/5E as the hobby progressed. Kelsey has been working on this project for THREE years, not a 2 month project but YEARS. She had her quickstarts out months prior with people commenting and putting up videos as early as 5 months ago. The OGL scandal broke when she was already slated to release this KS anyway and now she's in the right place at the right time. She caught lightning in a bottle.
Her wife is in marketing and having worked in higher end ventures you can see how/why this product was distributed the way it was. There are dozens of youtube content creators from 5E folks to Grognards. Few have found any hard/fast issues with the rules and those who have played it say they enjoyed their time with the rules as they were easy to run with and PC creation was a breeze (3d6 straight down) and GM'n with 1hr Real Life timers for torches created the "tension" that most games are missing.
I'm hoping she breaks $2M and keeps making more products , good on her, she's earned this victory lap.
As an aside from the current debate on whether something is off or not, in her live AMA YouTube video Kelsey did say she liked the Conan story Red Nails which is a thumbs up in my book.
I'm a bit behind, but in reply to the OP. This RPG seems to have come out of nowhere to me too, and it does feel off, but I have learned over the years that I am generally disconnected from whatever the main stream of popularity is so it doesn't surprise me that something could pop out of nowhere like this, because I didn't pay attention to any of the work that was building up to it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2023, 09:08:17 PM
Since I can't comment in the red list thread I'll say it her because it seems the best place to do so:
#GamerGate started because of corrupt and incestuous relationships between the games journos and certain game designers.
The creator of Shadowdark paying to QuestingBeast (and maybe others) to review her game stink to high heaven of the exact same corruption and or incestuous relationships, since I suspect that some of the glowing reviews were due to friendship and not money.
I know it's fashionable to browbeat Pundit but I find myself agreeing with the questions.
Pointing out elements of the game taken from other games isn't a sign of "look, she's profiting from my work!" (I doubt Pundit has that mindset since I TOLD him I was taking his monkey people for my Mayan game and he NEVER mentioned crediting him or anything), it's a sign that it's not a product of her mind alone.
Several people here and on mewe have agreed the game doesn't seem all that innovative, so why all the glowing reviews?
I think this is a fair question.
I realise this is retorical but I'm going to give my own opinion here. Yes I believe there's something Cliquey going on here. Too many positive reviews just happened to jump out at roughly the same time. There is something going on there for sure. But also, Women in nerd spaces have an inherent buff by being a woman in a nerdy space. People will fall over themselves to praise a woman for doing half the work an equivalent man would do. It's why I never ever believe it when people say Women are discriminated against in the RPG space. No. Quite the opposite and I've seen nothing to challenge what I've directly seen IRL and Online. I've seen her videos and beyond her claiming to have personally known Gary Gygax, I see nothing that differentiates herself or her game from OSE, LotFP, and other retro clones and 5E hybrids. Everything she's sprouting as profound knowledge as a game designer is stuff I learned in my first year of GMing. It's not groundbreaking stuff. She's clearly being propped up by OSR youtubers and I think that needs to be pointed out a lot more.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 09, 2023, 12:16:18 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2023, 09:08:17 PM
Since I can't comment in the red list thread I'll say it her because it seems the best place to do so:
#GamerGate started because of corrupt and incestuous relationships between the games journos and certain game designers.
The creator of Shadowdark paying to QuestingBeast (and maybe others) to review her game stink to high heaven of the exact same corruption and or incestuous relationships, since I suspect that some of the glowing reviews were due to friendship and not money.
I know it's fashionable to browbeat Pundit but I find myself agreeing with the questions.
Pointing out elements of the game taken from other games isn't a sign of "look, she's profiting from my work!" (I doubt Pundit has that mindset since I TOLD him I was taking his monkey people for my Mayan game and he NEVER mentioned crediting him or anything), it's a sign that it's not a product of her mind alone.
Several people here and on mewe have agreed the game doesn't seem all that innovative, so why all the glowing reviews?
I think this is a fair question.
I realise this is retorical but I'm going to give my own opinion here. Yes I believe there's something Cliquey going on here. Too many positive reviews just happened to jump out at roughly the same time. There is something going on there for sure. But also, Women in nerd spaces have an inherent buff by being a woman in a nerdy space. People will fall over themselves to praise a woman for doing half the work an equivalent man would do. It's why I never ever believe it when people say Women are discriminated against in the RPG space. No. Quite the opposite and I've seen nothing to challenge what I've directly seen IRL and Online. I've seen her videos and beyond her claiming to have personally known Gary Gygax, I see nothing that differentiates herself or her game from OSE, LotFP, and other retro clones and 5E hybrids. Everything she's sprouting as profound knowledge as a game designer is stuff I learned in my first year of GMing. It's not groundbreaking stuff. She's clearly being propped up by OSR youtubers and I think that needs to be pointed out a lot more.
I honestly had no idea who the author was, her race/sex/creed/color, or any other bit of info when i read through the quickstart. The work speaks for itself.
She's not being "propped up" by any youtubers, she has people supporting her because the work is GOOD. The buzz around the product is bridging the gap from 5E to OSR as it fits both playstyles as a happy medium.
Furthermore, people are making videos because Shadowdark is "HOT" so their youtube click through and recommendations pop up even more. This is similar to the OGL scandal 2 months ago where all of a sudden you'd go on youtube and you'd be bombarded with people you never heard of talking about the OGL. People want subscribeers because they want to make their channel grow.
Is there white knighting going on? I'm sure there is. M'ladyism is strong in the Grognarisphere. Hell she just donated $500 to a chairity that DM Masterpiece did in a live stream talking discussing her produt matching the viewers donations all for helping putting lights on in poor kids homes in Africa.
I implore anyone that wants to be skeptical to ask the questions directly to Kelsey as Pundit did and get your answers from her, she's approachable and amicable. I did my homework as I'm not throwing more money at woke shitty hateful pronoun riddled kickstarter garbage regardless of quality and detail. Shadowdark is interesting and deserves all of our attention to help make it better if it needs it and to help it succeed as the ingress to more OSR products.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 09, 2023, 09:00:32 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 09, 2023, 12:16:18 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 05, 2023, 09:08:17 PM
Since I can't comment in the red list thread I'll say it her because it seems the best place to do so:
#GamerGate started because of corrupt and incestuous relationships between the games journos and certain game designers.
The creator of Shadowdark paying to QuestingBeast (and maybe others) to review her game stink to high heaven of the exact same corruption and or incestuous relationships, since I suspect that some of the glowing reviews were due to friendship and not money.
I know it's fashionable to browbeat Pundit but I find myself agreeing with the questions.
Pointing out elements of the game taken from other games isn't a sign of "look, she's profiting from my work!" (I doubt Pundit has that mindset since I TOLD him I was taking his monkey people for my Mayan game and he NEVER mentioned crediting him or anything), it's a sign that it's not a product of her mind alone.
Several people here and on mewe have agreed the game doesn't seem all that innovative, so why all the glowing reviews?
I think this is a fair question.
I realise this is retorical but I'm going to give my own opinion here. Yes I believe there's something Cliquey going on here. Too many positive reviews just happened to jump out at roughly the same time. There is something going on there for sure. But also, Women in nerd spaces have an inherent buff by being a woman in a nerdy space. People will fall over themselves to praise a woman for doing half the work an equivalent man would do. It's why I never ever believe it when people say Women are discriminated against in the RPG space. No. Quite the opposite and I've seen nothing to challenge what I've directly seen IRL and Online. I've seen her videos and beyond her claiming to have personally known Gary Gygax, I see nothing that differentiates herself or her game from OSE, LotFP, and other retro clones and 5E hybrids. Everything she's sprouting as profound knowledge as a game designer is stuff I learned in my first year of GMing. It's not groundbreaking stuff. She's clearly being propped up by OSR youtubers and I think that needs to be pointed out a lot more.
I honestly had no idea who the author was, her race/sex/creed/color, or any other bit of info when i read through the quickstart. The work speaks for itself.
She's not being "propped up" by any youtubers, she has people supporting her because the work is GOOD. The buzz around the product is bridging the gap from 5E to OSR as it fits both playstyles as a happy medium.
Furthermore, people are making videos because Shadowdark is "HOT" so their youtube click through and recommendations pop up even more. This is similar to the OGL scandal 2 months ago where all of a sudden you'd go on youtube and you'd be bombarded with people you never heard of talking about the OGL. People want subscribeers because they want to make their channel grow.
Is there white knighting going on? I'm sure there is. M'ladyism is strong in the Grognarisphere. Hell she just donated $500 to a chairity that DM Masterpiece did in a live stream talking discussing her produt matching the viewers donations all for helping putting lights on in poor kids homes in Africa.
I implore anyone that wants to be skeptical to ask the questions directly to Kelsey as Pundit did and get your answers from her, she's approachable and amicable. I did my homework as I'm not throwing more money at woke shitty hateful pronoun riddled kickstarter garbage regardless of quality and detail. Shadowdark is interesting and deserves all of our attention to help make it better if it needs it and to help it succeed as the ingress to more OSR products.
Greetings!
Good stuff, Leopold! Yep, Shadowdark isn't being propped up by anyone. It's a good game, and solid. I watched that video you mentioned, Leopold. I also watched the 90-minute AMA session with Kelsey. It's very interesting watching HUNDREDS of gamers in chat talking about Shadowdark and so many QUESTIONS presented to Kelsey. All very professional, nice, interesting, and courteous. ALL game related.
No fucking woke BS, not even any politics, of any kind. Refreshing. But some people somehow, still want to pour gasoline on her. Oh, yeah, paying Questing Beast--that's part of marketing. Promoting your fucking product, because some people actually want to be successful and make money, right? *Laughing* Imagine that? She talked about that briefly. So what? Noone of the hundreds of gamers in the AMA GAVE A FUCK about her promoting her game any way she can, including through Questing Beast. Kelsey brought it up, very forthrightly.
Regardless of whether an individual finds that Shadowdark fits for them, Kelsey seems like a very nice, talented, and sincere gamer. A girl that is passionate and enthusiastic about 5E, but even moreso, the OSR, and creating and presenting a good game. Kelsey has been working on Shadowdark for the last three or four YEARS. She didn't just throw together some stupid "House Rules" in a fucking month, and shove it out the door. She's been slaving away at tis game for years. She had art work commissioned for it FOUR years ago. She's been smart, focused, and passionate. She's also crazy about promoting the OSR. Imagine that? Kelsey's great, and seems like a sweet person. I think that Shadowdark will be making a big impact, across the board. It's also amusing watching some people clutch their pearls about that. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 09, 2023, 09:24:21 AM
...No fucking woke BS, not even any politics, of any kind. Refreshing...
Shark,
Definitely. It's always been that way with The Arcane Library. Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.
For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.
As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.
Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 12:56:58 PM
Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.
For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.
As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.
Thanks, Feratu. Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
In theory, Shadowdark could end up drawing in thousands of new people into the OSR, but who are essentially immigrants from 5e culture and the mentalities of their toxic "5e Community". They'll bring wokeness, the idea that popular twitch actors or youtube influencers who have never produced a single mechanic are the equals or even superiors of the actual designers, and a culture that demands "niceness" and thus turns the kind of constant criticisms we make of each other's products in the OSR into "hate speech" that can't be allowed (destroying creators' ability to improve their skills). You might think that's exaggeration, but look at the thousands of tweets from people saying that actually "reviews" like dungeoncrafts that only say NICE things are way better than MEAN ones because "we need to support each other and not be triggering" or whatever. OMG LOL, etc etc
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 02:02:37 PM
And she's inviting all the 5e people to come to the OSR, but not to join the culture of the OSR, but rather to INVADE it with the 5e "community values" that frankly make that fandom so toxic. Now I'm not saying she is being malevolent in her intention, she's doing all this without any real thought for the culture clash that will inevitably follow. But she obviously LOVES the design culture of the OSR, way more than she likes 5e; so she has to figure out that if she wants 5e to become more like the OSR, instead of the OSR being ruined by 5e fans, she needs to teach this wave of immigrants how to integrate and adopt OUR values, rather than trying to impose the values they're fleeing from on our culture, starting with herself.
Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 12:56:58 PM
Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.
For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.
As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.
Thanks, Feratu. Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
In theory, Shadowdark could end up drawing in thousands of new people into the OSR, but who are essentially immigrants from 5e culture and the mentalities of their toxic "5e Community". They'll bring wokeness, the idea that popular twitch actors or youtube influencers who have never produced a single mechanic are the equals or even superiors of the actual designers, and a culture that demands "niceness" and thus turns the kind of constant criticisms we make of each other's products in the OSR into "hate speech" that can't be allowed (destroying creators' ability to improve their skills). You might think that's exaggeration, but look at the thousands of tweets from people saying that actually "reviews" like dungeoncrafts that only say NICE things are way better than MEAN ones because "we need to support each other and not be triggering" or whatever. OMG LOL, etc etc
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 02:02:37 PM
And she's inviting all the 5e people to come to the OSR, but not to join the culture of the OSR, but rather to INVADE it with the 5e "community values" that frankly make that fandom so toxic. Now I'm not saying she is being malevolent in her intention, she's doing all this without any real thought for the culture clash that will inevitably follow. But she obviously LOVES the design culture of the OSR, way more than she likes 5e; so she has to figure out that if she wants 5e to become more like the OSR, instead of the OSR being ruined by 5e fans, she needs to teach this wave of immigrants how to integrate and adopt OUR values, rather than trying to impose the values they're fleeing from on our culture, starting with herself.
Yeah now that you mention it, I am worried about what Pundit is saying here too. I can easily see it happening. I don't play 5E because I don't like the expectations players force upon 5E GMs. I like the OSR because the mentality of it and the players suits the kinds of games I want to run. You can say it won't matter because it won't affect your groups but when all the groups just want to play this game and nothing else. The result is the same. I as the GM can't run the sort of games I want to. Because EVERYONE has these weird woke expectations I can't cater to.
Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM
Thanks, Feratu. Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?
shit people are gonna shit up the game because that's what shit people do regardless if they play IndexRPG, LOTFP, PF2e, or 5e. Shadowdark will attract those shit tier types of people because that's what some folks do, they migrate like locusts over to the next thing to destroy it because they are garbage humans.
Knowing that COULD happen the OSR community as a whole gatekeeps and welcomes new players in at the same time with the "Welcome to the OSR!" and "That shit don't fly here, fuck right off" That will be the clash and the bigger the fight the more these mouthbreathing fuckwhistles will try to leach onto Shadowdark to twist it to their warped view of what the OSR "should be".
It'll be interesting to say the least and if the community as a whole can filter out the bad actors from the good that will be the best for everyone involved. The GM level setting expectations with "This will be different than 5e, let's keep an open mind here" is worth repeating.
Unless jackbooted thugs tie all the OSR creators to Ludovico Technique-like machines, I don't think the OSR has any worries about being "invaded".
Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
Unless jackbooted thugs tie all the OSR creators to Ludovico Technique-like machines, I don't think the OSR has any worries about being "invaded".
I mean it's not like the hobby as a whole, and every other form of media, have been invaded by terraforming ideologues that destroy everything they touch, and drive out the unbelievers...
But I'm sure you're right, OSR is uniquely immune among all of Western culture.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 09, 2023, 01:59:51 PM
Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
Unless jackbooted thugs tie all the OSR creators to Ludovico Technique-like machines, I don't think the OSR has any worries about being "invaded".
I mean it's not like the hobby as a whole, and every other form of media, have been invaded by terraforming ideologues that destroy everything they touch, and drive out the unbelievers...
But I'm sure you're right, OSR is uniquely immune among all of Western culture.
No, but the same creative impulse that spawned the OSR will survive, as long as those creators survive. So no immunity required: simple creative vitality and free will.
Clearly these new people will be playing OSR wrong, just like people play Narrative(tm) games wrong. I mean, God forbid I describe what my character in Fate Core does mechanically: "I'd like to pop on a +2 later, so I'm gonna create advantage... hmmm... I feint with my sword." That's just wrong man, you gotta describe what your character does first, in narrative 5 beat rhythm poetry, THEN decide on the mechanics. :o
I suppose we should write up a 20 page manifesto on what OSR is, on like, a spiritual level, so the nasty newbies don't dare play the game in a way that likely 80% of the gaming population back in the 80's actually played AD&D(modded for lower death, higher power, fuck all level limits, screw encumbrance, no one tracked torches, or did morale and ran reaction rolls). Cuz those fools weren't playing it The Right Way and we need to make sure that shit doesn't happen again today.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 09, 2023, 01:59:51 PM
Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
Unless jackbooted thugs tie all the OSR creators to Ludovico Technique-like machines, I don't think the OSR has any worries about being "invaded".
I mean it's not like the hobby as a whole, and every other form of media, have been invaded by terraforming ideologues that destroy everything they touch, and drive out the unbelievers...
But I'm sure you're right, OSR is uniquely immune among all of Western culture.
What grants the OSR a bit of natural immunity is that it's not centralized, there's not a pope or king of the OSR, you can't just infiltrate ONE publisher and boom! The OSR is now ours!.
They might manage to subvert the label (OSR) but if so then what? Either we invent a new one or do what many already do, publish without the OSR monicker.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 02:07:40 PM
They might manage to subvert the label (OSR) but if so then what? Either we invent a new one or do what many already do, publish without the OSR monicker.
We can call ourselves "The New Originals" or "The Peoples Front of OSR", but *not* "The OSRan Peoples Front". Fie on them folks.
Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 12:56:58 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 09, 2023, 09:24:21 AM
...No fucking woke BS, not even any politics, of any kind. Refreshing...
Shark,
Definitely. It's always been that way with The Arcane Library. Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.
For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.
As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.
Greetings!
BROTHER FERATU!
Damn, man. I agree entirely. It is fantastic hearing someone--and a gamer girl at that--go on about gaming concepts, techniques, and game stuff with *zero* woke politics. It's my observation that most women involved with gaming seem to also be woke, so that's why it is especially refreshing to me. Oh, and honestly, as I recall--many, many male game designers, writers, and artists are also, unfortunately, predominantly Libtard, too. I'd say the ratio is particularly higher for the women though. That's just my personal observation and experience, though. So, yeah, seeing Kelsey laser-focused on gaming is very enjoyable.
Your commentary on buying the $250 dollar package--damn. You bring up some excellent points that I had overlooked or didn't consider! I will probably cycle back around, hopefully somehow, and get Kelsey to send me an extra three or four core game books!
And you also bring up a good point about her genuine knowledge, enthusiasm, and professionalism. I realize for some, it seems like she just popped up out of no where--but a close observation of Kelsey's history shows that she has, in fact, been around the hobby for quite some time. She has also been designing game stuff for 5 years or more. So, she didn't just wake up last week and decide to give game design a try. I have also mentioned previously in this thread--I think I did!--that, even if YOU, or me, or whoever, hasn't heard of someone--it has been my observation that our hobby is far larger than most people actually believe it is. There are LOTS of people creating, designing, contributing--and making money along the way, too--in this hobby, and many have been doing so, for many years. I mentioned we have some of those people right here on our boards, as members. There are many others that we have not heard about. That doesn't mean that they aren't out there though, contributing, and doing their thing.
I think it is great that Kelsey has presented her Shadowdark game, even more so at this fortunate moment in time. Lots of people have proclaimed that the OSR is full of wonderful, creative people, and there are fantastic ongoing opportunities for anyone to get involved! So, to the haters, why not Kelsey? Why can't she present her game to the public, and contribute?
Great commentary, Feratu!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM
Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?
I GM a lot of 5e and the woke-toxic players I see are a tiny minority. The average 5e player does skew more liberal than the average OSR player, but that doesn't bother me. I understand it bothers Pundit.
HOWEVER those average 'Ginny Di/Critical Role' 5e players are NOT who Kelsey is actually marketing to! She's actually marketing to the OSR-adjacent 'Professor DM/Questing Beast' watching types who are considerably more centrist than the modal Critical Role fan. They are already halfway to OSR. So I think Pundit's fear is unfounded. Even if a bunch of Ginny D&Ders playing OSR and quoting Matt Mercer would be a tragedy - that's not what's going to happen.
Edit: Having a few dozen players in my 5e player cohort, it has admittedly been interesting seeing them tend to separate out into a couple factions, roughly matching the above, liberal vs centrist & conservative, Critters vs Grognards. On the Internet they tend to annoy each other. In live games they get on fine.
Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 12:56:58 PM
Kelsey has never discussed any politics or woke garbage in her videos. It's not in her products, either. We exchanged a few emails when she was seeking suggestions from newsletter subscribers for our favorite horror-themed rpg supplements. In the discourse, the enthusiasm you would expect from a fellow gamer was clearly apparent.
For anyone wondering, I was tracking on Shadowdark since she announced it, and I backed it ASAP at the $250 level. That gives me all the swag as well as enough copies of the core book for me to index, highlight, dog-ear, fold, spindle, mutilate & mark one up, a copy each for the wife and kiddo, a table copy for my cheapskate, never-buy-anything players, and I'll still have the deluxe book unscathed on my gaming shelf.
As others have mentioned, this is an opportunity to bridge the gap between 5E and the OSR for evacuees from WotC gaming. We should put on our diplomat hats and seize it.
Thanks, Feratu. Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 01:34:13 PM
In theory, Shadowdark could end up drawing in thousands of new people into the OSR, but who are essentially immigrants from 5e culture and the mentalities of their toxic "5e Community". They'll bring wokeness, the idea that popular twitch actors or youtube influencers who have never produced a single mechanic are the equals or even superiors of the actual designers, and a culture that demands "niceness" and thus turns the kind of constant criticisms we make of each other's products in the OSR into "hate speech" that can't be allowed (destroying creators' ability to improve their skills). You might think that's exaggeration, but look at the thousands of tweets from people saying that actually "reviews" like dungeoncrafts that only say NICE things are way better than MEAN ones because "we need to support each other and not be triggering" or whatever. OMG LOL, etc etc
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 02:02:37 PM
And she's inviting all the 5e people to come to the OSR, but not to join the culture of the OSR, but rather to INVADE it with the 5e "community values" that frankly make that fandom so toxic. Now I'm not saying she is being malevolent in her intention, she's doing all this without any real thought for the culture clash that will inevitably follow. But she obviously LOVES the design culture of the OSR, way more than she likes 5e; so she has to figure out that if she wants 5e to become more like the OSR, instead of the OSR being ruined by 5e fans, she needs to teach this wave of immigrants how to integrate and adopt OUR values, rather than trying to impose the values they're fleeing from on our culture, starting with herself.
Greetings!
Hey Jhkim! Your commentary brought something to my mind almost immediately.
Why the fuck is it ON KELSEY to worry a damned thing about "What 5E gamers!" do, or don't do? The same thing could be said for "OSR Gamers!" It's about capitalism, baby. Making the green, bro. Right? Beyond that, as a creative expression, and just as seriously, why can't she just create and contribute--to gaming--like she has been doing for YEARS now?
Somehow, front-loading some stupid ideological burden on her seems entirely unfair and unjustified to me. I mean, really. Broad our fucking minds, you know? *I CONSIDER IDEOLOGICALAND POLITICAL STUFF*--but not everyone does. Why isn't that okay? Does every single game designer, writer, and author in the OSR goddamnit have to think just like SHARK, or Pundit, or anyone else?
You, of course, know that I am a fierce opponent to Marxists and the woke Libtards. Being a champion against terrible ideology and twisted political and social agendas is always good, and I applaud and promote everyone to become...*REDPILLED* *Laughing* However, there are a good number of people in our hobby that are not interested in fighting political wars everyday, in everything they do. Especially gaming, and some of them even make special efforts to leave politics at the fucking door when they go in, to otherwise sit at the gaming table.
I of course, could be wrong on Kelsey, for example, but whether it is through her own personal, political disengagement or a purposeful, intentional choice to avoid politics in her gaming, I would like to believe it is okay to give her the benefit of the doubt, and to simply rejoice and be happy that she has chosen not to involve herself--and especially her Shadowdark game--with politics.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 09, 2023, 02:36:58 PM
Why the fuck is it ON KELSEY to worry a damned thing about "What 5E gamers!" do, or don't do?
Yeah, that was my immediate reaction too. It seems an incredibly heavy burden to give someone, the responsibility of maintaining the Purity of the OSR.
I think the OSR has already proved that it can look after itself. It is exceptionally resistant to political subversion - ofc Kelsey shows no sign of trying to subvert it, but we have seen some attempts. Its decentralised nature is anathema to the Wokesters' tactics, which derive from Gramsci & Alinsky, and are aimed at bureaucracies and large corporations. They can't even subvert any OSR bulletin boards that I can think of. They're reduced to making their own venues - which of course sink without trace.
Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 12:55:56 PM
OK, so that's Questing Beast openly saying it is a sponsored review. My question is, how common is this compared to competitors? I would suspect that sponsored reviews and similar paid marketing are common for RPG Kickstarters, which naturally are trying to promote themselves as much as possible. Do other RPG Kickstarters typically rely on only unpaid word-of-mouth?
EDITED TO ADD: I missed rkhigdon's post. Thanks for that, rkhigdon - but I'm happy to hear from others as well.
In board gaming, it has been a thing for years now. Theres alot of reviewers now who expect a free copy of the game at the very least. Which makes their reviews questionable at the very least.
Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM
...Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?
jhkim,
My response to the first part of the question would be to reject the premise that it is somehow Kelsey's responsibility to police anyone's choices or behavior as it pertains to integrating into the OSR. That reply may be unhelpful, but I believe it is objectively factual. Folks gonna do what folks gonna do. There is a caveat, however and I will expand on that in a moment.
Folks like us who embrace OSR have been dealt some harsh blows, one recent example being the PBS article characterizing the OSR as being solely preoccupied with preserving a white masculine worldview. It implied that we OSR fans are stuck in the past, unable or unwilling to grapple with newer concepts. One rebuttal I noticed on Reddit made a point that people who prefer swing music, or black-and-white films, or Jane Austen novels aren't normally considered "problematic" people who don't want to make way for "diversity" and "inclusion."
When I was in the 'Corps, we talked a lot about leadership by example. Without explicitly drawing attention to her lifestyle choices, Kelsey is leading by example. She's showing that, gay or straight, we can all just have fun being OSR gamers. This has the potential to reverse some of the misconceptions surrounding OSR "culture." Will everyone coming over from WotC be objective enough to look around and give the OSR a fair shake? Answer incoming.
We had another saying in the 'Corps: "Every group has it's 10%." Troublemakers (we called 'em shitbirds). In the case of WotC evacuees, people dishonestly and opportunistically agitating for MORE! MORE! MORE! bipoc, queer and female representation and accommodation. Well, surprise, shitbirds - we've got plenty of that already. Which leads to my final point.
Another saying we had in the 'Corps... It was closely related to leadership by example, and that is: "Good leaders model desired behavior." By not making a fuss about her preferences, and just being a traditional OSR gamer and enthusiast, Kelsey is modeling desired behavior, and leading by example - just by doing what she's doing, in the way she's doing it.
Will the 10% learn from her example? Some won't. There are always going to be intellectually dishonest people, opportunists seeking new opportunities to grift on perceived victimization of themselves and others. Either way, it's an opportunity to change some minds and add new fans to the OSR and I'm hopeful. I hope that answers your question, jhkim.
The real discussion should be about the reviewers, the game is just the catalyst, the 5e players that MIGHT play it are irrelevant.
IMHO the discussion should be centered around the practices on reviewing RPGs.
Quote from: SHARK on March 09, 2023, 02:16:40 PM
...I will probably cycle back around, hopefully somehow, and get Kelsey to send me an extra three or four core game books!
Shark,
Ever since I started gaming in the early '80s, I found the best way for me to get dialed in on a game system is to have a separate GM copy that I underline/highlight/index the crap out of. I believe it is 50% practical and 50% psychological. Folks laugh when I tell them I feel more control as GM when I've "marked my territory" in a copy of the core book.
Since I'm sharing deep secret's here, - Hey it's YOUR quonset hut, though - Mind if I sit on this foot locker? Thanks.
Anyway, where was I? Oh, yeah. Since I'm sharing deep secrets, Back in '95 or so when I started my longest running WEG d6 Star Wars campaign, I was initially kinda intimidated by all the splatbooks and expanded universe lore. So, I read ALL OF IT. That helped a little. I discovered the REAL problem was that following and adhering to a pre-existing timeline and established lore made a lot of larger galactic events anticlimactic, and/or made the players feel that their characters were overshadowed by the main cast of the movies and books.
I sat back, pondered briefly and fixed bayonets on that shit. I set my game in what later became the the "Rise of the Empire" era (I called it "Imperial Ascendance" which I still believe is a more elegant title). Next, I changed something pivotal to the saga's plot which created am opportunity for the player characters to step in and fill the void: Alderaan was destroyed a few years before "A New Hope" and Obi-Wan was tracked down and killed by persons unknown. I added a "Coalition of Confererate Worlds" based loosely on Imperial Japan in WWII and had them as a separatist group breaking away from the Republic (you can imagine how stoked I was when there were "separatists" in Star Wars movies just a few years later). The characters now had an opportunity to become the galaxy's biggest heroes, maybe even find out about Luke someday and get him mixed up in the story on different terms. But most importantly, I had "marked my territory" and created a more controllable (to me) environment where I could help my players tell great stories via their characters, without being overshadowed by canon.
Good grief, devil dog. I went off into the weeds there. Good talk. Let's have another again soon.
Semper Fi, bro.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 03:59:00 PM
The real discussion should be about the reviewers, the game is just the catalyst, the 5e players that MIGHT play it are irrelevant.
IMHO the discussion should be centered around the practices on reviewing RPGs.
I think this is true only in the cases where no freely available version is offered, to review oneself. Anyone else's opinion in such cases where a free version is available is...inconsequential? Irrelevant? So, in the case of Shadowdark: if someone is not availing themselves of the quickstart, and only relying on others' opinions, that's their choice, and no one else should care. Maybe a separate thread on reviewers is warranted.
Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 04:08:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 03:59:00 PM
The real discussion should be about the reviewers, the game is just the catalyst, the 5e players that MIGHT play it are irrelevant.
IMHO the discussion should be centered around the practices on reviewing RPGs.
I think this is true only in the cases where no freely available version is offered, to review oneself. Anyone else's opinion in such cases where a free version is available is...inconsequential? Irrelevant? So, in the case of Shadowdark: if someone is not availing themselves of the quickstart, and only relying on others' opinions, that's their choice, and no one else should care. Maybe a separate thread on reviewers is warranted.
Your scope is too narrow, you're still centered on Shadowdark, I'm talking more generally:
For instance, getting a free copy (when no one else is getting it) of the whole printed book is common practice. Should it be? Wouldn't buying the book be more impartial?
Another example, we learned that QB charges for "reviewing" a product... I'm sure there must be others, shouldn't this be a red flag on said reviewer?
One more, reviewing the products of people you are connected to, be it professional, friendship or whatever.
That's what I'm talking about, not about Kelsey, her sexuality (who fucking cares?), her possible future players or her game in any way shape or form. Sure, that was the catalyst, but IMHO the discussion needs to go to the ethics in game journalism.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 04:08:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 03:59:00 PM
The real discussion should be about the reviewers, the game is just the catalyst, the 5e players that MIGHT play it are irrelevant.
IMHO the discussion should be centered around the practices on reviewing RPGs.
I think this is true only in the cases where no freely available version is offered, to review oneself. Anyone else's opinion in such cases where a free version is available is...inconsequential? Irrelevant? So, in the case of Shadowdark: if someone is not availing themselves of the quickstart, and only relying on others' opinions, that's their choice, and no one else should care. Maybe a separate thread on reviewers is warranted.
Your scope is too narrow, you're still centered on Shadowdark, I'm talking more generally:
For instance, getting a free copy (when no one else is getting it) of the whole printed book is common practice. Should it be? Wouldn't buying the book be more impartial?
Another example, we learned that QB charges for "reviewing" a product... I'm sure there must be others, shouldn't this be a red flag on said reviewer?
One more, reviewing the products of people you are connected to, be it professional, friendship or whatever.
That's what I'm talking about, not about Kelsey, her sexuality (who fucking cares?), her possible future players or her game in any way shape or form. Sure, that was the catalyst, but IMHO the discussion needs to go to the ethics in game journalism.
Right: I'm suggesting that all those points, since they don't pertain to Shadowdark, should be discussed elsewhere. :) And they're all worth discussing.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
...IMHO the discussion needs to go to the ethics in game journalism.
GeekyBugle,
I agree that objectivity is essential for consumers to be able to trust a review of a product. Lord knows, we've seen abuses in other entertainment formats by "access media" who simp to maintain their connection and exclusivity. We've seen it with WotC and 5E (I'm thinking of YouTube channels like Draven Swiftbow and Dungeon Dudes, for example, perhaps Nerd Immersion, Ginny Di and Bob World Builder, too).
You've mentioned free physical copies of core books as a concern. I know Pundit stated that he requires a physical review copy to ensure that what he reviews is what ends up in the consumer's hands.
As Rhialto stated, maybe a new thread is in order? One where we discuss and try to create a "Best Practices" structure for what may create an objective reviewing environment where there is less concern about access media and pay-to-play review access for OSR products specifically. What are your thoughts?
Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 04:31:28 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
...IMHO the discussion needs to go to the ethics in game journalism.
GeekyBugle,
I agree that objectivity is essential for consumers to be able to trust a review of a product. Lord knows, we've seen abuses in other entertainment formats by "access media" who simp to maintain their connection and exclusivity. We've seen it with WotC and 5E (I'm thinking of YouTube channels like Draven Swiftbow and Dungeon Dudes, for example, perhaps Nerd Immersion, Ginny Di and Bob World Builder, too).
You've mentioned free physical copies of core books as a concern. I know Pundit stated that he requires a physical review copy to ensure that what he reviews is what ends up in the consumer's hands.
As Rhialto stated, maybe a new thread is in order? One where we discuss and try to create a "Best Practices" structure for what may create an objective reviewing environment where there is less concern about access media and pay-to-play review access for OSR products specifically. What are your thoughts?
Shark! beat you to it ;D
Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 03:24:49 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2023, 01:18:54 PM
...Knowing more about Kelsey, what do you think about Pundit's claim that she has given no real thought to how 5E players will integrate into OSR culture, that could mean that 5E players "INVADE" the OSR with toxicity?
My response to the first part of the question would be to reject the premise that it is somehow Kelsey's responsibility to police anyone's choices or behavior as it pertains to integrating into the OSR.
...
Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 03:24:49 PM
We had another saying in the 'Corps: "Every group has it's 10%." Troublemakers (we called 'em shitbirds). In the case of WotC evacuees, people dishonestly and opportunistically agitating for MORE! MORE! MORE! bipoc, queer and female representation and accommodation. Well, surprise, shitbirds - we've got plenty of that already. Which leads to my final point.
Another saying we had in the 'Corps... It was closely related to leadership by example, and that is: "Good leaders model desired behavior." By not making a fuss about her preferences, and just being a traditional OSR gamer and enthusiast, Kelsey is modeling desired behavior, and leading by example - just by doing what she's doing, in the way she's doing it.
Will the 10% learn from her example? Some won't. There are always going to be intellectually dishonest people, opportunists seeking new opportunities to grift on perceived victimization of themselves and others. Either way, it's an opportunity to change some minds and add new fans to the OSR and I'm hopeful. I hope that answers your question, jhkim.
Thanks, Feratu. Yes, that totally answers my question. It seems like you and S'mon are mostly on the same page, and I generally agree with what you both have said.
I should say I'm not an OSR gamer. I played some D&D back in the 1980s, and I'm running 5E at the moment, but I'm not even primarily a D&D gamer -- I'm more often doing Call of Cthulhu, Amber, PbtA, or other games. I've read some OSR stuff, though, and I'd be curious to try it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:32:43 PM
Quote from: Feratu on March 09, 2023, 04:31:28 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
...IMHO the discussion needs to go to the ethics in game journalism.
GeekyBugle,
I agree that objectivity is essential for consumers to be able to trust a review of a product. Lord knows, we've seen abuses in other entertainment formats by "access media" who simp to maintain their connection and exclusivity. We've seen it with WotC and 5E (I'm thinking of YouTube channels like Draven Swiftbow and Dungeon Dudes, for example, perhaps Nerd Immersion, Ginny Di and Bob World Builder, too).
You've mentioned free physical copies of core books as a concern. I know Pundit stated that he requires a physical review copy to ensure that what he reviews is what ends up in the consumer's hands.
As Rhialto stated, maybe a new thread is in order? One where we discuss and try to create a "Best Practices" structure for what may create an objective reviewing environment where there is less concern about access media and pay-to-play review access for OSR products specifically. What are your thoughts?
Shark! beat you to it ;D
lol yep I just popped in to edit my post and say that. You also beat me to THAT. ;D
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
Another example, we learned that QB charges for "reviewing" a product... I'm sure there must be others, shouldn't this be a red flag on said reviewer?
I've never listened to QB before. If he only does paid reviews, has he ever been critical of something he's reviewed? Has he ever not recommended or given a poor score to something? If he has, then I'm not so sure there is a problem as he's shown he's willing to criticize/be impartial despite being paid. If he's only ever given positive reviews then yeah, maybe there should be a flag there.
Quote from: S'mon on March 09, 2023, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 09, 2023, 02:36:58 PM
Why the fuck is it ON KELSEY to worry a damned thing about "What 5E gamers!" do, or don't do?
Yeah, that was my immediate reaction too. It seems an incredibly heavy burden to give someone, the responsibility of maintaining the Purity of the OSR.
I think the OSR has already proved that it can look after itself. It is exceptionally resistant to political subversion - ofc Kelsey shows no sign of trying to subvert it, but we have seen some attempts. Its decentralised nature is anathema to the Wokesters' tactics, which derive from Gramsci & Alinsky, and are aimed at bureaucracies and large corporations. They can't even subvert any OSR bulletin boards that I can think of. They're reduced to making their own venues - which of course sink without trace.
Sure, but if Simps are going to start complaining every time we tell 5e newbs not to tread on us, that won't make it any easier. Because I raised perfectly valid subjects, and yet there's still tons of people in or around the OSR White Knighting about this.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2023, 01:09:27 PM
Sure, but if Simps are going to start complaining every time we tell 5e newbs not to tread on us, that won't make it any easier. Because I raised perfectly valid subjects, and yet there's still tons of people in or around the OSR White Knighting about this.
IMO:
On the one hand, you were genuinely obnoxious. To Professor Dungeon Master at least as much as to Arcane Library/Kelsey.
On the other hand, the reaction was certainly extreme. And yes, all the White Knighting was for Kelsey, not Prof DM. There's certainly a m/f double standard. For good evolutionary reasons, but it definitely exists.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 04:08:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 03:59:00 PM
The real discussion should be about the reviewers, the game is just the catalyst, the 5e players that MIGHT play it are irrelevant.
IMHO the discussion should be centered around the practices on reviewing RPGs.
I think this is true only in the cases where no freely available version is offered, to review oneself. Anyone else's opinion in such cases where a free version is available is...inconsequential? Irrelevant? So, in the case of Shadowdark: if someone is not availing themselves of the quickstart, and only relying on others' opinions, that's their choice, and no one else should care. Maybe a separate thread on reviewers is warranted.
For instance, getting a free copy (when no one else is getting it) of the whole printed book is common practice. Should it be? Wouldn't buying the book be more impartial?
I don't know, but I do know buying your own copy is an investment. Maybe you'd think more of the game, or less in the case it blew goats nuts. Then you'd feel cheated out of x dollars.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on March 10, 2023, 01:37:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 04:08:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 03:59:00 PM
The real discussion should be about the reviewers, the game is just the catalyst, the 5e players that MIGHT play it are irrelevant.
IMHO the discussion should be centered around the practices on reviewing RPGs.
I think this is true only in the cases where no freely available version is offered, to review oneself. Anyone else's opinion in such cases where a free version is available is...inconsequential? Irrelevant? So, in the case of Shadowdark: if someone is not availing themselves of the quickstart, and only relying on others' opinions, that's their choice, and no one else should care. Maybe a separate thread on reviewers is warranted.
For instance, getting a free copy (when no one else is getting it) of the whole printed book is common practice. Should it be? Wouldn't buying the book be more impartial?
I don't know, but I do know buying your own copy is an investment. Maybe you'd think more of the game, or less in the case it blew goats nuts. Then you'd feel cheated out of x dollars.
We took that discussion to a new thread about it, will answer there.
Quote from: rgalex on March 10, 2023, 11:58:36 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
Another example, we learned that QB charges for "reviewing" a product... I'm sure there must be others, shouldn't this be a red flag on said reviewer?
I've never listened to QB before. If he only does paid reviews, has he ever been critical of something he's reviewed? Has he ever not recommended or given a poor score to something? If he has, then I'm not so sure there is a problem as he's shown he's willing to criticize/be impartial despite being paid. If he's only ever given positive reviews then yeah, maybe there should be a flag there.
Theres only 1 negative review i can think he did and it was of Dark Albion. Even yhen it was kinda lukewarm and in his early days. I heard he deleted a few videos of positive reviews of ACKS and Maze of the Blue Medusa but i never saw them i just heard from some people i know who had.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on March 10, 2023, 01:37:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2023, 04:08:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 03:59:00 PM
The real discussion should be about the reviewers, the game is just the catalyst, the 5e players that MIGHT play it are irrelevant.
IMHO the discussion should be centered around the practices on reviewing RPGs.
I think this is true only in the cases where no freely available version is offered, to review oneself. Anyone else's opinion in such cases where a free version is available is...inconsequential? Irrelevant? So, in the case of Shadowdark: if someone is not availing themselves of the quickstart, and only relying on others' opinions, that's their choice, and no one else should care. Maybe a separate thread on reviewers is warranted.
For instance, getting a free copy (when no one else is getting it) of the whole printed book is common practice. Should it be? Wouldn't buying the book be more impartial?
I don't know, but I do know buying your own copy is an investment. Maybe you'd think more of the game, or less in the case it blew goats nuts. Then you'd feel cheated out of x dollars.
this is why i scoured the shit out of the KS and background as I refuse to spend a single dime on woke trash authors who put pronouns in their bio and other virtue signaling . There is none of this type of behavior anywhere in this specific Kickstarter , nor in the product, nor on the Website, not even on Arcane Library's twitter.
I might be speaking for myself here, but just her being *married* to another woman is a downvote. Looking at the non-existence of gender and the stigmatization of whites, we've got this far because of the emboldened trouncing that the definition of marriage got under Obama.
If it's still horrendous and vile Nazism for daring to suggest civil unions as a compromise for gay marriage, I'm not dropping a penny for it.
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 10, 2023, 05:30:58 PM
I might be speaking for myself here, but just her being *married* to another woman is a downvote. Looking at the non-existence of gender and the stigmatization of whites, we've got this far because of the emboldened trouncing that the definition of marriage got under Obama.
If it's still horrendous and vile Nazism for daring to suggest civil unions as a compromise for gay marriage, I'm not dropping a penny for it.
This has nothing to do with her ability to create a game.
Downvoting the game because she's married to a woman is retarded.
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 10, 2023, 05:30:58 PM
I might be speaking for myself here,
Yes, you are. Deciding to not buy the game because they are married is retarded.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 11, 2023, 11:40:06 AM
This has nothing to do with her ability to create a game.
Downvoting the game because she's married to a woman is retarded.
Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 11, 2023, 12:33:29 PM
Yes, you are. Deciding to not buy the game because they are married is retarded.
Maybe in a different era with a different paradigm I wouldn't have cared much, and I could apply that to Roe v Wade as well, but we don't have that different era or paradigm and down the rather slippery slope we went. It has everything to do with how she's going to use that union to browbeat you with woke justifications in the here and now, so that's all that I can afford to care about given the track record of who she is either appeasing or even covering for, and we can't know that difference until she finally says something.
The very concept of gay marriage disdains the traditions of heterosexual partnering and the legacy of the family across the world, let alone the grievance politics and delusions of biology behind it all. Her marriage is a political statement enough that its only fair play to dismiss this one-off work after entire conservative lives have already been ruined with a quick and unquestioned empty accusation of fascism.
Quote from: ~~ on March 11, 2023, 09:27:43 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 11, 2023, 11:40:06 AM
This has nothing to do with her ability to create a game.
Downvoting the game because she's married to a woman is retarded.
Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 11, 2023, 12:33:29 PM
Yes, you are. Deciding to not buy the game because they are married is retarded.
Maybe in a different era with a different paradigm I wouldn't have cared much, and I could apply that to Roe v Wade as well, but we don't have that different era or paradigm and down the rather slippery slope we went. It has everything to do with how she's going to use that union to browbeat you with woke justifications in the here and now, so that's all that I can afford to care about given the track record of who she is either appeasing or even covering for, and we can't know that difference until she finally says something.
The very concept of gay marriage disdains the traditions of heterosexual partnering and the legacy of the family across the world, let alone the grievance politics and delusions of biology behind it all. Her marriage is a political statement enough that its only fair play to dismiss this one-off work after entire conservative lives have already been ruined with a quick and unquestioned empty accusation of fascism.
Over five years of tape on her company. Zero evidence or occurrences of her brow-beating anybody with anything. Over those five years the company has managed to do what you couldn't with this single post.
Not everything is a political statement. I do not own a gun out of political support for the second amendment. I own a gun to shoot somebody if they break into my house.
Quote from: ~~ on March 11, 2023, 09:27:43 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 11, 2023, 11:40:06 AM
This has nothing to do with her ability to create a game.
Downvoting the game because she's married to a woman is retarded.
Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 11, 2023, 12:33:29 PM
Yes, you are. Deciding to not buy the game because they are married is retarded.
Maybe in a different era with a different paradigm I wouldn't have cared much, and I could apply that to Roe v Wade as well, but we don't have that different era or paradigm and down the rather slippery slope we went. It has everything to do with how she's going to use that union to browbeat you with woke justifications in the here and now, so that's all that I can afford to care about given the track record of who she is either appeasing or even covering for, and we can't know that difference until she finally says something.
The very concept of gay marriage disdains the traditions of heterosexual partnering and the legacy of the family across the world, let alone the grievance politics and delusions of biology behind it all. Her marriage is a political statement enough that its only fair play to dismiss this one-off work after entire conservative lives have already been ruined with a quick and unquestioned empty accusation of fascism.
None of what you said has any bearing on the product in discussion , nor is evident in the body of work described in past work, and nothing to do with determining whether this product meets certain goals of OSR/5e juxtopositioning.
You are playing the same game as the sparkle brigade woke scolds only replacing social justice words with moral indignation.
In other words: being a retard
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 12, 2023, 10:41:10 AM
None of what you said has any bearing on the product in discussion , nor is evident in the body of work described in past work, and nothing to do with determining whether this product meets certain goals of OSR/5e juxtopositioning.
You are playing the same game as the sparkle brigade woke scolds only replacing social justice words with moral indignation.
In other words: being a retard
This is a fair argument, but it misses a key detail. We live in the era of LGBT activism.
Ten years ago, I told Christians they were crazy and overreacting when they said they were afraid that if gay marriage were legalized, activists would be forcing their pastors to perform gay weddings in their churches. I was wrong. That wasn't crazy or an overreaction, it was a legitimate concern. The very first thing activists did after gay marriage was legalized was use the government to violate the First Amendment rights of Christians. It's kind of like how the very first thing Christian activists did in response to Dobbs v Jackson was ban abortion at the state level.
I have rather openly distrusted Christians for thirty years due to the very public behavior of their evangelical wing. The evangelical animosity towards homosexuals played a major role in my negative view of Christianity. They're all Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson to me. So consider the source when I say this:
There is zero reason for Christians to trust any person with a rainbow alphabet identity. The activist class of the rainbow alphabet community has proven that their goal is to humiliate and defile Christians.
Remember the last Rainbow Identity we embraced "because it wasn't woke"? I do, wen to Inglorious OSR on Mewe and screencaped a joke by one of the guys there to try and cancel him and the mewe group on the twatter.
Now, I'm not saying Kelsey is the same, she doesn't seem to have swam with the piranhas like Taylor did until they turned on him. But I do understand the reluctance to trust.
The activists are going to cause a backlash that will hurt all the Rainbow brigade, even those who don't agree with them. My advice to all the LGBT people in the RPG industry is this:
Speak out NOW, these people do not have your best interests at heart and will cause hurt to come upon you.
Quote from: Slambo on March 10, 2023, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: rgalex on March 10, 2023, 11:58:36 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
Another example, we learned that QB charges for "reviewing" a product... I'm sure there must be others, shouldn't this be a red flag on said reviewer?
I've never listened to QB before. If he only does paid reviews, has he ever been critical of something he's reviewed? Has he ever not recommended or given a poor score to something? If he has, then I'm not so sure there is a problem as he's shown he's willing to criticize/be impartial despite being paid. If he's only ever given positive reviews then yeah, maybe there should be a flag there.
Theres only 1 negative review i can think he did and it was of Dark Albion. Even yhen it was kinda lukewarm and in his early days. I heard he deleted a few videos of positive reviews of ACKS and Maze of the Blue Medusa but i never saw them i just heard from some people i know who had.
Ah, so on top of it Questing Beast is an ideologically driven cunt.
Quote from: ~~ on March 11, 2023, 09:27:43 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 11, 2023, 11:40:06 AM
This has nothing to do with her ability to create a game.
Downvoting the game because she's married to a woman is retarded.
Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 11, 2023, 12:33:29 PM
Yes, you are. Deciding to not buy the game because they are married is retarded.
Maybe in a different era with a different paradigm I wouldn't have cared much, and I could apply that to Roe v Wade as well, but we don't have that different era or paradigm and down the rather slippery slope we went. It has everything to do with how she's going to use that union to browbeat you with woke justifications in the here and now, so that's all that I can afford to care about given the track record of who she is either appeasing or even covering for, and we can't know that difference until she finally says something.
The very concept of gay marriage disdains the traditions of heterosexual partnering and the legacy of the family across the world, let alone the grievance politics and delusions of biology behind it all. Her marriage is a political statement enough that its only fair play to dismiss this one-off work after entire conservative lives have already been ruined with a quick and unquestioned empty accusation of fascism.
Jumping to off-topic political subjects in a thread on the main forum is forbidden. This is your only warning. Keep posting off the topic and you'll be banned.
Quote from: Corolinth on March 12, 2023, 12:56:49 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 12, 2023, 10:41:10 AM
None of what you said has any bearing on the product in discussion , nor is evident in the body of work described in past work, and nothing to do with determining whether this product meets certain goals of OSR/5e juxtopositioning.
You are playing the same game as the sparkle brigade woke scolds only replacing social justice words with moral indignation.
In other words: being a retard
This is a fair argument, but it misses a key detail. We live in the era of LGBT activism.
Ten years ago, I told Christians they were crazy and overreacting when they said they were afraid that if gay marriage were legalized, activists would be forcing their pastors to perform gay weddings in their churches. I was wrong. That wasn't crazy or an overreaction, it was a legitimate concern. The very first thing activists did after gay marriage was legalized was use the government to violate the First Amendment rights of Christians. It's kind of like how the very first thing Christian activists did in response to Dobbs v Jackson was ban abortion at the state level.
I have rather openly distrusted Christians for thirty years due to the very public behavior of their evangelical wing. The evangelical animosity towards homosexuals played a major role in my negative view of Christianity. They're all Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson to me. So consider the source when I say this:
There is zero reason for Christians to trust any person with a rainbow alphabet identity. The activist class of the rainbow alphabet community has proven that their goal is to humiliate and defile Christians.
This post is off topic. Making off topic posts, particularly political ones, on the main gaming forum is a violation of the rules. Don't do it again, or there will be consequences.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2023, 01:12:29 PM
Remember the last Rainbow Identity we embraced "because it wasn't woke"? I do, wen to Inglorious OSR on Mewe and screencaped a joke by one of the guys there to try and cancel him and the mewe group on the twatter.
Now, I'm not saying Kelsey is the same, she doesn't seem to have swam with the piranhas like Taylor did until they turned on him. But I do understand the reluctance to trust.
I remember this event and i absolutely concur with a lack of trust, hence the need to verify and take some overtures with a healthy dose of skepticism.
I believe that few of us desire a negative financal outcome when our research comes up with nothing. That way lies spite and jealousy instead of goodwill and inclusion (the real kind) into the gaming sphere as a whole.
tenkar ran his group of grognards through a 1st level dungeon and overall the group had positive feedback. He livestreamed the event from charcter generation to the end of a module whipped up in 10min. Few critiques: xp system felt too low (1000xp instead of 1) and a more detailed interpretation on the halfling invisibilty ability (is it a spell or not?).
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 12, 2023, 03:57:56 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2023, 01:12:29 PM
Remember the last Rainbow Identity we embraced "because it wasn't woke"? I do, wen to Inglorious OSR on Mewe and screencaped a joke by one of the guys there to try and cancel him and the mewe group on the twatter.
Now, I'm not saying Kelsey is the same, she doesn't seem to have swam with the piranhas like Taylor did until they turned on him. But I do understand the reluctance to trust.
I remember this event and i absolutely concur with a lack of trust, hence the need to verify and take some overtures with a healthy dose of skepticism.
I believe that few of us desire a negative financal outcome when our research comes up with nothing. That way lies spite and jealousy instead of goodwill and inclusion (the real kind) into the gaming sphere as a whole.
tenkar ran his group of grognards through a 1st level dungeon and overall the group had positive feedback. He livestreamed the event from charcter generation to the end of a module whipped up in 10min. Few critiques: xp system felt too low (1000xp instead of 1) and a more detailed interpretation on the halfling invisibilty ability (is it a spell or not?).
Greetings!
Hey Leopold! I also watched Tenkar and his group play during the Live Stream. The game looks good. As you mentioned, everyone in Tenkar's group--Rob Connoly, Joe The Lawyer, and more--all had positive things to say about Shadowdark. The criticisms were few and minor. It seems like this game is going to be HUGE. It seems like it will be bigger than OSE, and become a strong pillar for the OSR in general.
YAY! I think it is great! Kelsey and Shadowdark are bringing more gamers into D&D, and also really bringing them into the OSR style in a fantastic way. This is awesome, and should be celebrated amongst gamers.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 12, 2023, 02:19:48 PM
Quote from: Slambo on March 10, 2023, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: rgalex on March 10, 2023, 11:58:36 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 09, 2023, 04:17:05 PM
Another example, we learned that QB charges for "reviewing" a product... I'm sure there must be others, shouldn't this be a red flag on said reviewer?
I've never listened to QB before. If he only does paid reviews, has he ever been critical of something he's reviewed? Has he ever not recommended or given a poor score to something? If he has, then I'm not so sure there is a problem as he's shown he's willing to criticize/be impartial despite being paid. If he's only ever given positive reviews then yeah, maybe there should be a flag there.
Theres only 1 negative review i can think he did and it was of Dark Albion. Even yhen it was kinda lukewarm and in his early days. I heard he deleted a few videos of positive reviews of ACKS and Maze of the Blue Medusa but i never saw them i just heard from some people i know who had.
Ah, so on top of it Questing Beast is an ideologically driven cunt.
Or caved to the mob to avoid being constantly harassed. He reviewed a LotFP product after the mob was working to cancel them, and had the mob turn on him for it. It may well be he's simply spineless.
Quote from: migo on March 13, 2023, 09:53:27 AM
Or caved to the mob to avoid being constantly harassed. He reviewed a LotFP product after the mob was working to cancel them, and had the mob turn on him for it. It may well be he's simply spineless.
This is my take on Ben. He's got a following, makes some quid, and he doesn't want to jeopardize it.
Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2023, 05:02:41 PM
...
Hey Leopold! I also watched Tenkar and his group play during the Live Stream. The game looks good. As you mentioned, everyone in Tenkar's group--Rob Connoly, Joe The Lawyer, and more--all had positive things to say about Shadowdark. The criticisms were few and minor. It seems like this game is going to be HUGE. It seems like it will be bigger than OSE, and become a strong pillar for the OSR in general.
...
Shadowdark will definitely make a splash for sure. I would not be surprised if the KS clicked over 1mil.
But bigger than OSE? Likely not.
They would have to extraordinarily successful in converting those sales into a steady player network.
I think people do not realize
why OSE is so big - even though it is 'just a clone' of B/X.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 13, 2023, 07:25:57 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2023, 05:02:41 PM
...
Hey Leopold! I also watched Tenkar and his group play during the Live Stream. The game looks good. As you mentioned, everyone in Tenkar's group--Rob Connoly, Joe The Lawyer, and more--all had positive things to say about Shadowdark. The criticisms were few and minor. It seems like this game is going to be HUGE. It seems like it will be bigger than OSE, and become a strong pillar for the OSR in general.
...
Shadowdark will definitely make a splash for sure. I would not be surprised if the KS clicked over 1mil.
But bigger than OSE? Likely not.
They would have to extraordinarily successful in converting those sales into a steady player network.
I think people do not realize why OSE is so big - even though it is 'just a clone' of B/X.
OSE is big because of the superior layout. It's about production values. Shadowdark is looking good in that regard.
Arcane Library already has a number of adventures published for 5e. Seemingly published at a rate of 4 per year while she was working on Shadowdark. Once it's published she'll have more time to devote just to adventures, so the rate should be at least the same, if not better. That's a very good way to establish a foothold. With 3rd party support even moreso.
OSE has Dolmenwood (but it's getting its own version of OSE that already appears divisive, that may be better or worse for it in the long run).
Quote from: Jaeger on March 13, 2023, 07:25:57 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2023, 05:02:41 PM
...
Hey Leopold! I also watched Tenkar and his group play during the Live Stream. The game looks good. As you mentioned, everyone in Tenkar's group--Rob Connoly, Joe The Lawyer, and more--all had positive things to say about Shadowdark. The criticisms were few and minor. It seems like this game is going to be HUGE. It seems like it will be bigger than OSE, and become a strong pillar for the OSR in general.
...
Shadowdark will definitely make a splash for sure. I would not be surprised if the KS clicked over 1mil.
But bigger than OSE? Likely not.
They would have to extraordinarily successful in converting those sales into a steady player network.
I think people do not realize why OSE is so big - even though it is 'just a clone' of B/X.
Greetings!
Indeed, Jaeger. I think Shadowdark will be huge though. It may not become bigger than OSE, that's true. That's okay though, in my book, either way. I like the fact that design-wise, Shadowdark has been inspired by many different sources--nit just content with being a retroclone. Shadowdark takes little bites from OD&D, AD&D, OSE, LOTFP, ICRPG, Deathbringer, DCC, and certainly, 5E. Mixing all that up into something that is familiar, while also being fresh, new, and approaching the design with fresh eyes, embracing innovations. Yes, there are *many* innovations beyond OD&D. That might rub OD&D fanatics up the wrong way--but, *shrugs*--that's why preferences are a good thing. Personally, there are aspects of 5E that I like, and I'm glad to see Kelsey, too, is also a fan of 5E. So, I like a good mix of mechanics, design, style and so on. I think Shadowdark will be in a strong position to bridge the "gap" between 5E and OSR. I suspect that Shadowdark will appeal strongly to lots of gamers that find OSE insufficient, or not satisfying, for whatever reasons.
An well, I also love the Shadowdark layout and presentation. Good use and economy of space, excellent readability, and usability at the table. That's a huge benefit that Runehammer discussed in his video about Shadowdark. Runehammer admitted himself--that he was throwing OSE out, and letting Shadowdark become his main game. So, that kind of usability and accessibility is a feature I also really love. Then, I so love the black an white colours, the layout. Sharp, simple, and clean. This then flows also into the black & White artwork, which I also love. It definitely captures a gritty, AD&D feel in all the artwork. These are some of the things that make me excited about Shadowdark.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The author of Shadowdark is just good at the RPG business. Good writer, experienced adventure designer, good website, good marketing. The art, the layout, the design, the editing are all strong. 136 pages of free download quickstart pdfs before the KS even opened. The KS campaign itself well designed with pricing bundles that entice one to order more. A ton of 3PP material already in the KS and on DTRPG. Has a popular discord. Has an active YouTube channel. She built an online community *before* the KS (a strategy Matt Colville also used to great effect.) Has obviously networked and made friends in the designer community counting Brandish Gilhelm at Runehammer, Dan Masters (Prof DM), Ben Milton among them. All of this built up over the last five years or so. Not an overnight or out of nowhere kind of deal.
Clearly she's found an audience willing to part with their cash.
So what exactly is off? Being good at business? Being good at writing? Making friends in the community? Being successful at her *job*? When did those become bad things?
Quote from: Festus on March 15, 2023, 01:16:58 AM
The author of Shadowdark is just good at the RPG business.
BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
Quote from: Festus on March 15, 2023, 01:16:58 AM
So what exactly is off? Being good at business? Being good at writing? Making friends in the community? Being successful at her *job*? When did those become bad things?
Basically she's coming from 5e (at least as far as being an adventure designer goes) and making an OSR game. OSR players who paid no attention to 5e would have no clue who she is, so it seems like a nobody getting a lot of attention and praise (and this has happened before). Of course she's not a nobody, she just moved in completely different circles.
That has been settled in this thread, but it's understandable why some people would go, 'wait a minute...' and ask what's going on.
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu ;D she came up in.
Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu ;D she came up in.
Greetings!
WTF? That is funny, S'mon! How the hell is Garycon--featuring so many grognards--somehow, "doesn't count" as OSR? Garycon. Full of grognards, that play D&D. Probably lots of OD&D and AD&D going on. That's not OSR? To Pundit? WTF?
*Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's maybe the same weird thing with Castles & Crusades. It was the first OSR game, but somehow it's too old to count.
Quote from: migo on March 15, 2023, 11:14:22 AM
It's maybe the same weird thing with Castles & Crusades. It was the first OSR game, but somehow it's too old to count.
I disagree. Arguably the first OSR game was Hackmaster 4th Ed, which came out in '01.
Quote from: blackstone on March 15, 2023, 11:24:22 AM
Quote from: migo on March 15, 2023, 11:14:22 AM
It's maybe the same weird thing with Castles & Crusades. It was the first OSR game, but somehow it's too old to count.
I disagree. Arguably the first OSR game was Hackmaster 4th Ed, which came out in '01.
The goal wasn't to revive an old playing style. The goal was to sell the game that existed in the KotDT comics. If you don't factor intent in, and you're counting Hackmaster 4e, then you could say Palladium Fantasy even predates it.
Quote from: migo on March 15, 2023, 11:14:22 AM
It's maybe the same weird thing with Castles & Crusades. It was the first OSR game, but somehow it's too old to count.
I think the argument is either 'too old to be part of the movement' or 'not enough like TSR D&D'. But two gamers, three opinions, and there's a sizable branch of the OSR that wants it to equate to 'stuff I approve of.' Then you get the spinoffs like the defunct Sworddream movement or the currently active and imperializing BrOSR ...
Kickstarter is approaching $900k , more 3rd party publishers are starting to come on board, the discord is friendly and welcoming and Kelsey is open to being interviewed by Pundit and others in the OSR and has asked for the oppertunity to do so.
Quote from: migo on March 13, 2023, 08:26:14 PM
OSE is big because of the superior layout. It's about production values. Shadowdark is looking good in that regard.
OSE's layout is one factor - an underrated one by those that played B/X for decades.
But its not just layout or production values.
OSE taps into the entire B/X OSR ecosystem. This is a big deal: Old modules, new modules etc,. It is not dependent on their dolemwood setting hitting big to tap into the larger OSR B/X player network.
Shadowdark is not as directly compatible to the existing B/X OSR ecosystem as OSE.
The success of the KS may lead to a steady player network to sell adventures, and grow the game. But that is something that will not be readily apparent for a few years.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 15, 2023, 03:28:17 PM
OSE taps into the entire B/X OSR ecosystem. This is a big deal: Old modules, new modules etc,. It is not dependent on their dolemwood setting hitting big to tap into the larger OSR B/X player network.
Shadowdark is not as directly compatible to the existing B/X OSR ecosystem as OSE.
The success of the KS may lead to a steady player network to sell adventures, and grow the game. But that is something that will not be readily apparent for a few years.
What it may tap into is the ecosystem of 5e adventure and setting design.
If Dionne does a good job converting her existing 5e adventures to Shadowdark, and provides conversion guides for other publishers (or even for GMs to do themselves), then there can be a very sizeable ecosystem that builds up around it.
It's not like OSE being the well laid out system that taps into the existing ecosystem, since it isn't quite the same thing. But it is well positioned. And I would think you can run The Dark of Hot Springs Island without trouble using Shadowdark.
Quote from: migo on March 15, 2023, 04:56:31 PM
If Dionne does a good job converting her existing 5e adventures to Shadowdark, and provides conversion guides for other publishers (or even for GMs to do themselves), then there can be a very sizeable ecosystem that builds up around it.
She's already said she is not likely to convert her old adventures. Case of been there, done that and she feels more motivated to create new material for Shadowdark. She's already got a zine with three issues out as this system has been in beta for over a year, and there's something like 20+ Shadowdark products by third parties on Drivethru now. The Shadowdark ecosystem already exists and is growing.
Quote from: Festus on March 15, 2023, 06:19:32 PM
...
She's already said she is not likely to convert her old adventures. Case of been there, done that and she feels more motivated to create new material for Shadowdark. She's already got a zine with three issues out as this system has been in beta for over a year, and there's something like 20+ Shadowdark products by third parties on Drivethru now. The Shadowdark ecosystem already exists and is growing.
LOL; The game isn't even out yet!
Totally not coordinated at all... ;)
I'll give the Shadowdark devs credit where credit is due: They
know how to get their hustle on!
Can't hate on that.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 15, 2023, 07:55:32 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 15, 2023, 06:19:32 PM
...
She's already said she is not likely to convert her old adventures. Case of been there, done that and she feels more motivated to create new material for Shadowdark. She's already got a zine with three issues out as this system has been in beta for over a year, and there's something like 20+ Shadowdark products by third parties on Drivethru now. The Shadowdark ecosystem already exists and is growing.
LOL; The game isn't even out yet!
Totally not coordinated at all... ;)
I'll give the Shadowdark devs credit where credit is due: They know how to get their hustle on!
Can't hate on that.
The quickstart rules have been out for quite a while and a lot of the stuff on DriveThruRPG was uploaded in late 2021/early 2022.
Quote from: LordBP on March 15, 2023, 08:37:16 PM
...
The quickstart rules have been out for quite a while and a lot of the stuff on DriveThruRPG was uploaded in late 2021/early 2022.
So people from the SD circle of friends and acquaintances then.
Because the complete game isn't even out yet.This certainly gives SD the
illusion of some kind of 'broad' 3pp support.
Look, for all we know it may tap into something and take off like a rocket. But right now that is pure speculation.
All I'm saying is this:
One successful KS does not a OSE-B/X rivaling player network make.Only time will tell how it really takes.
Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu ;D she came up in.
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.
Sure, no disagreement. I know you regard the more innovative 2nd & 3rd wave OSR material as superior to the retro-clone and near-clone stuff. Shadowdark seems to be in the near-clone area, a bit more variance/innovation in mechanics than a typical near-clone, but still based off B/X rules and intended for traditional dungeon delving fantasy in a slightly darker than normal milieu.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu ;D she came up in.
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.
What is that? The only thing I've heard waves applied to is feminism.
What distinguishes 1st wave, 2nd wave and 3rd wave OSR?
Quote from: Jaeger on March 15, 2023, 09:04:21 PM
So people from the SD circle of friends and acquaintances then. Because the complete game isn't even out yet.
There was a beta and it was fairly widely distributed, likely in their discord community which is pretty active and tight knit. I don't think it's a matter of things being kept intentionally closed up, so much that the game was pretty much flying under everyone's radar(oh yawn, yet another OSR clone) until the launch and publicity blew up on it.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.
This is pendantic, petty, and splitting hairs. You are saying that Shadowdark is not OSR-enough? What that they didn't have a Google+ account removes them from being considered an OSR product?
Quote from: Jaeger
So people from the SD circle of friends and acquaintances then. Because the complete game isn't even out yet.
This certainly gives SD the illusion of some kind of 'broad' 3pp support.
Look, for all we know it may tap into something and take off like a rocket. But right now that is pure speculation.
All I'm saying is this: One successful KS does not a OSE-B/X rivaling player network make.
Only time will tell how it really takes.
3rd party publishers that are onboard range from large patreon's to 1 or 2 man shop publishers. No
major 3rd party publisher has stated they are publishing products for Shadowdark. They actually have a list of 3pp products here and it's 59 at the time of writing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14KbvKlqmoucIZE9IM49mtSKfLczWEd2tZ5NbP-cQXVk/edit#gid=0
Furthermore, in the Kickstarter itself, the rules are all written and ready to be delivered at the end of the kickstarter. There is no waiting for the book to be finished since it's done. Some people have early access to the finished rules and have said so. Those people MAY be putting out products for SD. The quickstart rules alone are enough to get you from levels 1-3 including the GM guide. No one is putting out a level 10 dungeon here, this is all very low level material (spells, classes, adventures, etc.).
An RPG product making over a million bucks is a major milestone, this feat alone is worth noticing and investigating.
OSR is so vague a concept. It means totally different things to different people. It's pointless to argue whether this is OSR or not or how much OSR it contains.
Shadow Dark is 99.44% OSR!
Free Grognard in every box!
9 out of 10 blue-haired tieflings hate it!
OSR is a label, and like any other label it can be overly reductionist and deceptive.
IF Shadowdark gets played and builds a significant following, calling it OSR or not isn't going to matter. Look at how DCC is treated. Some say OSR, others say OSR-inspired or OSR adjacent, but really who cares? Loads of people play DCC regardless of its categorization.
If it's successful, it will pull a lot of people who exclusively play D&D 5E out of that mindset, which is a good thing for the hobby as a whole. There will be more players willing to try non-5E games.
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 16, 2023, 11:56:46 AM
OSR is so vague a concept. It means totally different things to different people. It's pointless to argue whether this is OSR or not or how much OSR it contains.
Amen! I've seen 3e retroclones described as "OSR" and as someone who's been playing RPGs since 1978 I'm thinking "huh? Since when is 3e D&D 'old school'?" I literally can't tell what OSR means other than "a game that isn't 5e D&D or 2e Pathfinder, often liked by folks with a deep disdain for both those systems and the people who play them"
Quote from: Festus on March 16, 2023, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 16, 2023, 11:56:46 AM
OSR is so vague a concept. It means totally different things to different people. It's pointless to argue whether this is OSR or not or how much OSR it contains.
Amen! I've seen 3e retroclones described as "OSR" and as someone who's been playing RPGs since 1978 I'm thinking "huh? Since when is 3e D&D 'old school'?" I literally can't tell what OSR means other than "a game that isn't 5e D&D or 2e Pathfinder, often liked by folks with a deep disdain for both those systems and the people who play them"
It sounds like you're doubting on 3E as "old school", but the topic was the opposite claim -- that old-school grognards who are into old school stuff (1E, BX, retroclones, etc.) don't count as OSR because they haven't changed with the times to get in on 2nd or 3rd wave OSR. As S'mon and Pundit discuss it,
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu ;D she came up in.
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.
Pundit - are you saying that 1st wave OSR doesn't count as OSR?
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
I would wish them all the best but they don't seem to need it.
I am quite happy with Traveller, Savage Worlds, 5e or 13th Age, and hundreds of other games.
But, someone running SD and I happily turn up and play.
Greetings!
Here is a pretty solid preview of Shadowdark, by YouTuber Mr. Tarrasque.
Good overview of Shadowdark RPG.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material. The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material. The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.
Without me doing the converting? That's some high magic right there!
I can run whatever in OSE if I so wish, I just need to invest the time in converting it for the system.
From their twitter account.
https://twitter.com/arcanelibrary/status/1636187473499029508 (https://twitter.com/arcanelibrary/status/1636187473499029508)
Folks are asking me if Shadowdark RPG was based on 5E, and it actually was not! It was based on B/X.
It's harder to convert it to 5E compatibility for that reason, but very easy to convert it to B/X compatibility for that reason.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material. The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.
Is that true? The little bit I've seen of it makes me think that that 5e encounters would shred Shadowdark PCs without monster conversion. Also, by which standard are mechanics streamlined? It's way more complex than B/X, with each spellcast having a second edition psionics power check to see if you cast it or not, with the old "on a 20 you might have a bad effect" becoming "roll a huge number of awful events if you roll a 1, including permanent loss of the spell and in some cases death". While multipage resolution tables might be around for the AD&D-esque portions of OSR, they aren't a mainstay for standard combat events. The pieces that are streamlined compared to 5e are mostly the pieces 5e stole from 3rd and 4th, what with machine-like resolution of events, tagged effects, and keywords.
It looks OSR with a focus on generating excitement with every decision, because even something as mundane as casting a first level spell has a very small chance of wrecking you in at least some way, forever.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addition to OSR related material. The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.
No, I don't think it allows that. At least not any more than just about any other D20 roll over ascending armor class game does.
Based on the 136 page free quickstart I've read and the reviews I've seen, Shadowdark is a synthesis of ideas from B/X to 5e to ICRPG to FTD, etc. with a couple innovations added in. The value, IMO, is in the quality and consistency of that synthesis and the clarity of the presentation. It's an extremely well-crafted game. The author was a newspaper journalist before becoming a full time RPG creator and it shows. She's writes tighter, cleaner prose than 90+% of game authors out there. Some may find the concise style to be a bit sterile. It's definitely not Lovecraftian or Howardesque. There is certainly a contrast between the black and white line art which is very flavorful and hearkens back to an earlier era and the modern layout and language.
For folks new to the OSR I think it is a game that is similar enough to 5e to be super approachable. And based on the short amount of time I've spent on the author's discord, folks coming from 5e will find her community more welcoming than other OSR oriented groups.
If you're already heavily invested in a game like OSE, the quickstart alone probably doesn't have enough to justify backing it. I've heard in reviews that the full game has a lot of very good random tables. I've also heard that the adventures in the three zines that you can get in the KS are top-notch. Based on the author's 5e adventures (which are very good) I find that believable. But as with any KS, it's a leap of faith. We won't really know until we know.
I'm probably going to back it. I have liked the author's 5e work. I'm a fan of Hankerin' over at Runehammer and he raves about Shadowdark. In fact, that's where I first heard of the author. Hankerin' interviewed her on his Youtube channel 4-ish years ago when her first 5e adventure was released.
Quote from: Venka on March 16, 2023, 06:25:17 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material. The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.
Is that true? The little bit I've seen of it makes me think that that 5e encounters would shred Shadowdark PCs without monster conversion. Also, by which standard are mechanics streamlined? It's way more complex than B/X, with each spellcast having a second edition psionics power check to see if you cast it or not, with the old "on a 20 you might have a bad effect" becoming "roll a huge number of awful events if you roll a 1, including permanent loss of the spell and in some cases death". While multipage resolution tables might be around for the AD&D-esque portions of OSR, they aren't a mainstay for standard combat events. The pieces that are streamlined compared to 5e are mostly the pieces 5e stole from 3rd and 4th, what with machine-like resolution of events, tagged effects, and keywords.
It looks OSR with a focus on generating excitement with every decision, because even something as mundane as casting a first level spell has a very small chance of wrecking you in at least some way, forever.
Yes, the spellcasting is my biggest problem with Shadowdark. Otherwise I don't find anything really objectionable (ancestry instead of race as a term is mildly irritating but by itself that can slide).
Conceptually the mechanics just don't work. It's absurd that based on a bad roll you would fall out of favour with your deity, and that you would only be blocked from casting that particular spell.
If you lose your divine spellcasting, it should be because of a conscious and deliberate action taken by the character, and it should be all the spellcasting, not just one spell. The idea that there's a failure chance from divine magic also stretches suspension of disbelief.
The concept
can work for arcane magic. I don't think it is a good mechanic, or a good alternative to Vancian spellcasting even - it just makes mages randomly suck way more than a 1st level mage in AD&D on one day, and randomly be amazing on another day. But at least the concept doesn't break suspension of disbelief in the context of how arcane magic is supposed to work in the fantasy world.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
This is exactly my take. But I have no issue with those who choose to play it. And if they make lots of money, good for them. I'm fine with what I already have.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material. The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.
Fine; I don't care and I've never found the slightest need to "bridge the gap" between 5e and anything. And streamlined mechanics are subjective in any case. I know the mechanics of B/X and AD&D intimately. So, for me, "modern mechanics" like ascending AC, challenge levels, and different saving throw categories are clunky, not streamlined. So none of these are selling points for me. It's all in one's perspective. So again, good for those who want to play this, but I'm just not seeing the "revolutionary" nature of another set of mashed up house rules.
Right now that there is still some negative animus towards WotC over the OGL fiasco, and players are still looking for something to move to from 5e, having streamlined mechanics compared to 5e is definitely a bonus. People are already fed up with how 5e plays, especially at higher levels, so they're definitely ready to transition to something better, and Shadowdark comes at the right time for that.
More players having a better experience is certainly a good thing. More players playing a game that is playable means more games for all of us to join in on. More people moving to other systems means WotC and D&D have less influence on the hobby as a whole, and that is something that benefits the rest of us even if we keep playing the systems we like anyway.
Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 08:12:16 PM
Quote from: Venka on March 16, 2023, 06:25:17 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 16, 2023, 05:52:37 PM
allows you to use 5e adventures and modules in addittion to OSR related material. The use of more streamlined mechanics that bridge the gap from OSR->5E and vice versa is what makes people interested.
Is that true? The little bit I've seen of it makes me think that that 5e encounters would shred Shadowdark PCs without monster conversion. Also, by which standard are mechanics streamlined? It's way more complex than B/X, with each spellcast having a second edition psionics power check to see if you cast it or not, with the old "on a 20 you might have a bad effect" becoming "roll a huge number of awful events if you roll a 1, including permanent loss of the spell and in some cases death". While multipage resolution tables might be around for the AD&D-esque portions of OSR, they aren't a mainstay for standard combat events. The pieces that are streamlined compared to 5e are mostly the pieces 5e stole from 3rd and 4th, what with machine-like resolution of events, tagged effects, and keywords.
It looks OSR with a focus on generating excitement with every decision, because even something as mundane as casting a first level spell has a very small chance of wrecking you in at least some way, forever.
Yes, the spellcasting is my biggest problem with Shadowdark. Otherwise I don't find anything really objectionable (ancestry instead of race as a term is mildly irritating but by itself that can slide).
Conceptually the mechanics just don't work. It's absurd that based on a bad roll you would fall out of favour with your deity, and that you would only be blocked from casting that particular spell.
If you lose your divine spellcasting, it should be because of a conscious and deliberate action taken by the character, and it should be all the spellcasting, not just one spell. The idea that there's a failure chance from divine magic also stretches suspension of disbelief.
The concept can work for arcane magic. I don't think it is a good mechanic, or a good alternative to Vancian spellcasting even - it just makes mages randomly suck way more than a 1st level mage in AD&D on one day, and randomly be amazing on another day. But at least the concept doesn't break suspension of disbelief in the context of how arcane magic is supposed to work in the fantasy world.
Isn't she just taking these concepts pretty much from DCC and modifying them? Divine magic can fail there too and one can incur escalating levels of deity disfavor. But there are mechanics to reverse that fairly easily. Their arcane failure and corruption rules can be tied to specific spells, but aren't always.
Personally, I don't mind the concept of spell checks, corruption, etc., but we've found it slows things down so we don't play that much DCC. I actually prefer reading to running/playing DCC.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 16, 2023, 08:49:03 PM
Isn't she just taking these concepts pretty much from DCC and modifying them? Divine magic can fail there too and one can incur escalating levels of deity disfavor. But there are mechanics to reverse that fairly easily. Their arcane failure and corruption rules can be tied to specific spells, but aren't always.
Personally, I don't mind the concept of spell checks, corruption, etc., but we've found it slows things down so we don't play that much DCC. I actually prefer reading to running/playing DCC.
That's possible. I don't know DCC that well, but I don't imagine taking ideas from DCC is ever going to make a system better. Almost any other non-Vancian alternative system would have been a better alternative.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
I mean, you could argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Basic Fantasy RPG came out in February 2007. Hell, you could probably argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Hackmaster came out in 2001.
Quote from: Plotinus on March 16, 2023, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
I mean, you could argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Basic Fantasy RPG came out in February 2007. Hell, you could probably argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Hackmaster came out in 2001.
HackMaster was a joke system, literally and figuratively.
Castles & Crusades breaks at higher levels if you try running AD&D modules with it.
OSRIC is an AD&D 1e clone, and there's a reason many people moved on to 2e, and also away from AD&D entirely.
Basic Fantasy has the stupidity of race as class. Sure there are people who like it, but it's still stupid and is right from the start a reason not to play it. The Thief was also shit, which is characteristic of OSR games still being released today.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess is the first system that got a reasonable amount of attention that was actually serious (to the extent that serious gonzo is possible), could actually scale to higher levels, was simpler than AD&D, and had an implementation of the Thief class that wasn't garbage. You could actually play it as is with humans only and stripping the demi-humans out.
Finding the right balance, so that it doesn't change too much to lose compatibility but still changes enough that it doesn't irritate you the same as when you left D&D looking for another system is tricky to achieve, and people are still looking for a system that is like that.
Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 09:06:02 PM
Quote from: Plotinus on March 16, 2023, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
I mean, you could argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Basic Fantasy RPG came out in February 2007. Hell, you could probably argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Hackmaster came out in 2001.
HackMaster was a joke system, literally and figuratively.
Castles & Crusades breaks at higher levels if you try running AD&D modules with it.
OSRIC is an AD&D 1e clone, and there's a reason many people moved on to 2e, and also away from AD&D entirely.
Basic Fantasy has the stupidity of race as class. Sure there are people who like it, but it's still stupid and is right from the start a reason not to play it. The Thief was also shit, which is characteristic of OSR games still being released today.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess is the first system that got a reasonable amount of attention that was actually serious (to the extent that serious gonzo is possible), could actually scale to higher levels, was simpler than AD&D, and had an implementation of the Thief class that wasn't garbage. You could actually play it as is with humans only and stripping the demi-humans out.
Finding the right balance, so that it doesn't change too much to lose compatibility but still changes enough that it doesn't irritate you the same as when you left D&D looking for another system is tricky to achieve, and people are still looking for a system that is like that.
Basic fantasy doesnt have race as class
Quote from: Slambo on March 17, 2023, 12:20:45 AM
Basic fantasy doesnt have race as class
Maybe he confused it with Labyrinth Lord.
Quote from: Slambo on March 17, 2023, 12:20:45 AM
Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 09:06:02 PM
Quote from: Plotinus on March 16, 2023, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
I mean, you could argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Basic Fantasy RPG came out in February 2007. Hell, you could probably argue that every OSR game has failed this test since Hackmaster came out in 2001.
HackMaster was a joke system, literally and figuratively.
Castles & Crusades breaks at higher levels if you try running AD&D modules with it.
OSRIC is an AD&D 1e clone, and there's a reason many people moved on to 2e, and also away from AD&D entirely.
Basic Fantasy has the stupidity of race as class. Sure there are people who like it, but it's still stupid and is right from the start a reason not to play it. The Thief was also shit, which is characteristic of OSR games still being released today.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess is the first system that got a reasonable amount of attention that was actually serious (to the extent that serious gonzo is possible), could actually scale to higher levels, was simpler than AD&D, and had an implementation of the Thief class that wasn't garbage. You could actually play it as is with humans only and stripping the demi-humans out.
Finding the right balance, so that it doesn't change too much to lose compatibility but still changes enough that it doesn't irritate you the same as when you left D&D looking for another system is tricky to achieve, and people are still looking for a system that is like that.
Basic fantasy doesnt have race as class
My mistake. The Thief is still garbage though.
So from the video and everything else I have read, there is nothing that it does I can do elsewhere. So no need to even get this.
Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 09:06:02 PM
HackMaster was a joke system, literally and figuratively.
It might have started out that way, but I've gotten a lot of milage out of that "joke".
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 17, 2023, 02:33:44 PM
Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 09:06:02 PM
HackMaster was a joke system, literally and figuratively.
It might have started out that way, but I've gotten a lot of milage out of that "joke".
Hackmaster 4e is a joke if taken in its entirety and at face value, but strip away the humor and some of the more insane yet hilarious chrome and it is a pretty darn good evolution of 1e if you go the "crunchier is better" route. I look at it quite frequently for inspiration or just for the good mood that reading it creates. I have never read an interview with the authors where they discuss the back-and-forth creative process between parody and seriousness that these rules represent.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 17, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
So from the video and everything else I have read, there is nothing that it does I can do elsewhere. So no need to even get this.
This, exactly.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 17, 2023, 02:33:44 PM
Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 09:06:02 PM
HackMaster was a joke system, literally and figuratively.
It might have started out that way, but I've gotten a lot of milage out of that "joke".
Yup, some of the joy I get out of reading these books is amazing. I consider 4e Hackmaster to be some of the best rpg books created.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 17, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
So from the video and everything else I have read, there is nothing that it does I can do elsewhere. So no need to even get this.
Same. I got the quick start a few days ago and read/skimmed through it. I honestly don't see why this is thought to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, the apotheosis of OS rule set creation. This whole situation reminds me of the wildfire, backer impulse hysteria during Reaper's first Bones kickstarter, except in this case as Jaeger (I think) pointed out,
it's a girl making a 'what-if-5e-and-OSR-had-a-baby' game. If
Ye Olde Neckbeard made the exact rule set, word for word with the same art, there'd be 1/10th the excitement.
That said, the more people she weans off WOTC's tit, the better for everyone, and I'm all for it. Once they're on this side of the fence, there's plenty of other rules sets for them to explore. Before you know it, there'll be tens of thousands of more people spitting on story games.
It's important to note though, once she gets a million dollars under her belt, the Shadowdark brand name becomes an easy target for the cancel brigades and she'll not want to jeopardize that. Race to Ancestry may be a hint of things to come.
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 18, 2023, 04:33:45 AM
It's important to note though, once she gets a million dollars under her belt, the Shadowdark brand name becomes an easy target for the cancel brigades and she'll not want to jeopardize that. Race to Ancestry may be a hint of things to come.
Yes. Of course there she may also weigh being able to weather the storm since she is a woman married to another woman. It will be quite the thing if they try cancelling one of the hobby's most successful female game designers in recent history.
Quote from: migo on March 18, 2023, 10:09:31 AM
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 18, 2023, 04:33:45 AM
It's important to note though, once she gets a million dollars under her belt, the Shadowdark brand name becomes an easy target for the cancel brigades and she'll not want to jeopardize that. Race to Ancestry may be a hint of things to come.
Yes. Of course there she may also weigh being able to weather the storm since she is a woman married to another woman. It will be quite the thing if they try cancelling one of the hobby's most successful female game designers in recent history.
I'm sorry? Are you new to woke planet Earth? The first black Secretary of State was Colin Powell. Would the left cancel that achievement just because... oh, wait. How many examples do you need? J. K. Rowling? Denise Young Smith (Apple)? Or just recently Dr. Tabia Lee (who is black and was accused of being a white supremacist, even)?
The moment she (or anyone) contradicts the woke, it doesn't matter what her bona fides are. She'll be toast, unless she bends the knee...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 18, 2023, 11:22:53 AM
Quote from: migo on March 18, 2023, 10:09:31 AM
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 18, 2023, 04:33:45 AM
It's important to note though, once she gets a million dollars under her belt, the Shadowdark brand name becomes an easy target for the cancel brigades and she'll not want to jeopardize that. Race to Ancestry may be a hint of things to come.
Yes. Of course there she may also weigh being able to weather the storm since she is a woman married to another woman. It will be quite the thing if they try cancelling one of the hobby's most successful female game designers in recent history.
I'm sorry? Are you new to woke planet Earth? The first black Secretary of State was Colin Powell. Would the left cancel that achievement just because... oh, wait. How many examples do you need? J. K. Rowling? Denise Young Smith (Apple)? Or just recently Dr. Tabia Lee (who is black and was accused of being a white supremacist, even)?
The moment she (or anyone) contradicts the woke, it doesn't matter what her bona fides are. She'll be toast, unless she bends the knee...
Rowling is doing fine. Yes, she was attacked. Fantastic Beasts is continuing to run. Hogwarts Legacy is one of the most popular video games. The question isn't whether they'll attack her. It's whether she can shrug off the attacks. And it's a lot easier for her to get moderate leftists on her side being lesbian and a rare successful female game designer.
Quote from: migo on March 18, 2023, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 18, 2023, 11:22:53 AM
Quote from: migo on March 18, 2023, 10:09:31 AM
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 18, 2023, 04:33:45 AM
It's important to note though, once she gets a million dollars under her belt, the Shadowdark brand name becomes an easy target for the cancel brigades and she'll not want to jeopardize that. Race to Ancestry may be a hint of things to come.
Yes. Of course there she may also weigh being able to weather the storm since she is a woman married to another woman. It will be quite the thing if they try cancelling one of the hobby's most successful female game designers in recent history.
I'm sorry? Are you new to woke planet Earth? The first black Secretary of State was Colin Powell. Would the left cancel that achievement just because... oh, wait. How many examples do you need? J. K. Rowling? Denise Young Smith (Apple)? Or just recently Dr. Tabia Lee (who is black and was accused of being a white supremacist, even)?
The moment she (or anyone) contradicts the woke, it doesn't matter what her bona fides are. She'll be toast, unless she bends the knee...
Rowling is doing fine. Yes, she was attacked. Fantastic Beasts is continuing to run. Hogwarts Legacy is one of the most popular video games. The question isn't whether they'll attack her. It's whether she can shrug off the attacks. And it's a lot easier for her to get moderate leftists on her side being lesbian and a rare successful female game designer.
So, you ignore the other examples for the one billionaire. The "moderate" left won't support her any more than they supported Powell or Smith. The few who might will be to cowed; the rest don't disagree with the radical left, they just can't be bothered to actually do anything...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 18, 2023, 11:41:01 PM
So, you ignore the other examples for the one billionaire. The "moderate" left won't support her any more than they supported Powell or Smith. The few who might will be to cowed; the rest don't disagree with the radical left, they just can't be bothered to actually do anything...
Who in this hobby space has been legitimately cancelled? Zak Smith is about it. James Raggi has even survived it despite continuous attempts to cancel him. Kevin Crawford hasn't even been touched, and he's perfectly content to talk to people right here. The Design Mechanism doesn't seem to have been seriously affected by the boycott over Mythic Polynesia.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 17, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
So from the video and everything else I have read, there is nothing that it does I can do elsewhere. So no need to even get this.
That's a pretty lazy excuse.
Barring some extreme cases, once you have a handful of games there isn't anything another could offer that you couldn't already do with the ones you have.
Quote from: rgalex on March 19, 2023, 04:35:27 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 17, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
So from the video and everything else I have read, there is nothing that it does I can do elsewhere. So no need to even get this.
That's a pretty lazy excuse.
Barring some extreme cases, once you have a handful of games there isn't anything another could offer that you couldn't already do with the ones you have.
That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.
Quote from: migo on March 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM
Quote from: rgalex on March 19, 2023, 04:35:27 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 17, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
So from the video and everything else I have read, there is nothing that it does I can do elsewhere. So no need to even get this.
That's a pretty lazy excuse.
Barring some extreme cases, once you have a handful of games there isn't anything another could offer that you couldn't already do with the ones you have.
That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.
Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 19, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
Quote from: migo on March 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM
Quote from: rgalex on March 19, 2023, 04:35:27 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 17, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
So from the video and everything else I have read, there is nothing that it does I can do elsewhere. So no need to even get this.
That's a pretty lazy excuse.
Barring some extreme cases, once you have a handful of games there isn't anything another could offer that you couldn't already do with the ones you have.
That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.
Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.
Greeting!
*Laughing* Yep, my friend!
I remember just like, what? a month ago or so--lots and lot of people were screaming, "TRY NEW GAMES, MORONS!"
And now..."I have 20 games already! I don't need to try any stupid new games!"
It makes me laugh at the irony.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
That was when they had something to fight against. With SRD 5.1 released under CC-BY that meant there was basically nothing to fight. It's back to the status quo.
Had WotC not caved, and Shadowdark were released with modifications to not rely on the OGL, the sentiment may have been very different. This of course reveals that releasing it as CC-BY was purely strategic.
We probably also won't see SRD 3.5 released under CC-BY, because WotC sees it has had enough effect and they don't need to do anything more to calm the storm.
Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu ;D she came up in.
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.
What is that? The only thing I've heard waves applied to is feminism.
What distinguishes 1st wave, 2nd wave and 3rd wave OSR?
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?
I think first-wave includes near-clones like Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy RPG, as well as true clones like OSRIC, within a "D&D Dungeon Fantasy" corral. If so then Shadowdark arguably fits in there rather than with LotFP and DCC.
Quote from: S'mon on March 20, 2023, 06:10:49 AM
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?
I think first-wave includes near-clones like Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy RPG, as well as true clones like OSRIC, within a "D&D Dungeon Fantasy" corral. If so then Shadowdark arguably fits in there rather than with LotFP and DCC.
LotFP is hardly that different though. You have the Thief tuned up to be the Expert class, and you have stuff like only the Fighter advances in attack bonus. For the most part it's pretty standard. The difference is the theme, but that's kind of like saying Ravenloft is a different system from Birthright. There are some mechanical differences, but they're more alike than different.
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 12:32:22 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 20, 2023, 06:10:49 AM
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?
I think first-wave includes near-clones like Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy RPG, as well as true clones like OSRIC, within a "D&D Dungeon Fantasy" corral. If so then Shadowdark arguably fits in there rather than with LotFP and DCC.
LotFP is hardly that different though. You have the Thief tuned up to be the Expert class, and you have stuff like only the Fighter advances in attack bonus. For the most part it's pretty standard. The difference is the theme, but that's kind of like saying Ravenloft is a different system from Birthright. There are some mechanical differences, but they're more alike than different.
Does it matter where a game "fits" in this scheme? I get that we humans are hard-wired to categorize stuff, but beyond scratching that itch, is there a point to that breakdown?
Quote from: Festus on March 20, 2023, 01:08:43 PM
Does it matter where a game "fits" in this scheme? I get that we humans are hard-wired to categorize stuff, but beyond scratching that itch, is there a point to that breakdown?
Not a damn thing. First wave through Nth wave categorization is kindergarden level of stupidity.
People who don't want New Thing to "interfere" with the way they play Old Thing and want to yell at clouds are the only ones getting assmad over something Different existing in their playground.
The reasons I've heard so far that Shadowdark is WongBad is:
1. Race vs. Ancestry
2. Not "OSR enough"
3. "Stole" ideas from other OSR authors.
4. Using 5E mechanics instead of B/X mechanics
5. Written by a Woman.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 20, 2023, 01:16:52 PM
The reasons I've heard so far that Shadowdark is WongBad is:
1. Race vs. Ancestry
2. Not "OSR enough"
3. "Stole" ideas from other OSR authors.
4. Using 5E mechanics instead of B/X mechanics
5. Written by a Woman.
I'll give you the first reason, but regarding the other four I've only seen people being
accused of holding those views, but not anyone actually holding them.
You might profit from taking a step back and rereading the thread with less emotional charge.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 19, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.
When this thing gets released, and there is a book that's available to be bought, and a .pdf that can be downloaded and read, and a complete game to be played, then maybe, I will buy this thing.
When Pundit (one of the guys she borrowed rules from) puts out a game, he puts it out there. No six months of making you wait after you paid your money while the designer builds the game they are trying to sell you.
If you want to sell your shit, you should at least have something to sell other than a promise and a dream.
Make the game, and I'll buy it.
Quote from: rgalex on March 19, 2023, 04:35:27 PM
That's a pretty lazy excuse.
Barring some extreme cases, once you have a handful of games there isn't anything another could offer that you couldn't already do with the ones you have.
Nothing lazy about it at all. Why get a game (Shadowdark) when I already have game material that does what it does for the most point?
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 20, 2023, 02:35:14 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 19, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.
When this thing gets released, and there is a book that's available to be bought, and a .pdf that can be downloaded and read, and a complete game to be played, then maybe, I will buy this thing.
When Pundit (one of the guys she borrowed rules from) puts out a game, he puts it out there. No six months of making you wait after you paid your money while the designer builds the game they are trying to sell you.
If you want to sell you shit, you should at least have something to sell other than a promise and a dream.
Make the game, and I'll buy it.
The book is already written, finished, and is in PDF completed :
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shadowdarkrpg/shadowdark-rpg-old-school-gaming-modernized
Quote
Fulfillment
All material for the game is already written, proofed, and ready to go! That means digital rewards will get sent to all backers right after the Kickstarter completes.
For physical rewards, we have quotes from several highly-vetted shipping partners and will sign on with the right team for the job based on the final size of the Kickstarter
You get your product as soon as the kickstarter closes. Not waiting 6 months, not waiting for the designer to build the game, no promises or dreams, you get what you paid for Immediately. The game is made, now will you buy it?
Quote from: Wtrmute on March 20, 2023, 02:12:01 PM
I'll give you the first reason, but regarding the other four I've only seen people being accused of holding those views, but not anyone actually holding them.
You might profit from taking a step back and rereading the thread with less emotional charge.
I've read this thread from the beginning and what i posted are the reasons people are knocking Shadowdark cumulatively over the last 18+ pages. Nothing substatial about horrible inbalance of rules, lack of infravision, spell mechanics, minimal PC classes, etc. If this thing is a coal mine then where is the Canary?
I'll take GhostNinja's "It has the same thing in one book that i have already with other OSR books" reason as valid. Budgets are tight these days and shelf space is limited.
Quote from: migo on March 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM
That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.
Yep. I don't buy games I am not going to use anymore and sell games that don't get played. Why would I buy ShadowDark when I have OSR and other games that do what it does?
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 20, 2023, 02:39:07 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 20, 2023, 02:35:14 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 19, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.
When this thing gets released, and there is a book that's available to be bought, and a .pdf that can be downloaded and read, and a complete game to be played, then maybe, I will buy this thing.
When Pundit (one of the guys she borrowed rules from) puts out a game, he puts it out there. No six months of making you wait after you paid your money while the designer builds the game they are trying to sell you.
If you want to sell you shit, you should at least have something to sell other than a promise and a dream.
Make the game, and I'll buy it.
The book is already written, finished, and is in PDF completed :
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shadowdarkrpg/shadowdark-rpg-old-school-gaming-modernized
Quote
Fulfillment
All material for the game is already written, proofed, and ready to go! That means digital rewards will get sent to all backers right after the Kickstarter completes.
For physical rewards, we have quotes from several highly-vetted shipping partners and will sign on with the right team for the job based on the final size of the Kickstarter
You get your product as soon as the kickstarter closes. Not waiting 6 months, not waiting for the designer to build the game, no promises or dreams, you get what you paid for Immediately. The game is made, now will you buy it?
When Arcane Library has a product to sell me and give to me AS SOON AS I PAY THEM, I will buy the game. I don't do kickstarters.
They have a million dollars. They can put a game out there. And then they do. I will buy it.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 20, 2023, 02:40:39 PM
Yep. I don't buy games I am not going to use anymore and sell games that don't get played. Why would I buy ShadowDark when I have OSR and other games that do what it does?
There's a lot of cruft in BX that doesn't sell well to players that didn't grow up on 1e/2e. Percentage thief skills, clerics not having spells til level 2(never mind the power jump at 6), tracking coin encumbrance, THAC0(which is often already modded out), the arcane saving throws, race as class, magic user being a one spell wonder at level 1, etc.
Shadowdark is going to be more appealing to that crowd and as a GM, let's me tap more easily into that player base. I personally find Chris Perkin's(not of WoTC) AD&D 3e variant a superior 5e-ish AD&D system, but it can't be printed(too much copyright material in it) and doesn't have much of a community around it.
Quote from: S'mon on March 16, 2023, 08:32:07 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.
Sure, no disagreement. I know you regard the more innovative 2nd & 3rd wave OSR material as superior to the retro-clone and near-clone stuff. Shadowdark seems to be in the near-clone area, a bit more variance/innovation in mechanics than a typical near-clone, but still based off B/X rules and intended for traditional dungeon delving fantasy in a slightly darker than normal milieu.
No, it's very much a second-wave product. I mean, it literally has almost all the same innovations Lion & Dragon had. Extremely similar, given that the author claims to never have even seen L&D.
Again, both have:
No resurrection
No infravision
Ascending AC
Spell checks instead of Vancian magic
random background tables
random levelling benefit tables
Similar encumbrance rules
The only variation from B/X I've heard of in Shadowdark that isn't in Lion & Dragon is real-time torches. As for stuff in Lion & Dragon that isn't in Shadowdark, obviously ignoring the medieval-authentic stuff, the only ones that I can think of that I haven't heard of in Shadowdark would be Parrying rules and Critical Hit tables.
Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu ;D she came up in.
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.
What is that? The only thing I've heard waves applied to is feminism.
What distinguishes 1st wave, 2nd wave and 3rd wave OSR?
1st wave OSR: Clones. Direct copies of TSR books, plus adventures/dungeons for it.
2nd wave OSR: started with Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Rules innovations: an old school frame with innovative alterations to the rules to fit a concept.
3rd wave OSR: Rules innovations, where the rules are crafted to fit a specific setting. Ie. Arrows of Indra
Quote from: jhkim on March 16, 2023, 03:56:08 PM
Quote
Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu ;D she came up in.
Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.
Pundit - are you saying that 1st wave OSR doesn't count as OSR?
I'm saying that if someone played D&D as a kid with Gary Gygax in the early 90s, then played D&D 2e for the next 30 years in a basement with local friends, and then published an "old school game" based on those experiences, that wouldn't be a product of the OSR, though it would probably still fit the definition of a game qualified to be in the OSR.
The point is if Arcane Library actually hung out with real old school TSR people from lake geneva, and went to garycon a few times, but didn't necessarily ever really run into the areas where the OSR as a design school interacts (G+ in the old days, theRPGsite, MeWe, OSR facebook, the old OSR discord before it was taken over by the Maoists, the new OSR Based Discords, Twitter, and the Youtube OSR vlogosphere) it's not surprising that she doesn't understand our internal culture and how we operate, and thus interpreted my pointing out the connections between L&D and her game as an "attack", and felt she had to disavow and attack rather than engage and promote because the online design areas she has been a part of (5e, mainly) would have taught her that as a survival instinct, even though its the worst thing she could have done.
She also keeps having no problem with taking credit for the innovations in Shadowdark as if SHE was the first person to invent them. She never claims it, but she's happy to let youtube video shills and simps keep talking about how her "exciting NEW rule changes" are so incredible and innovative and will change the gaming world, without ever pointing out that there's an entire movement dating back to 2009 that has been creating games and that literally NOTHING in her game is new and of her exclusive invention.
So it sure looks like she's trying to ERASE the OSR while she tries to sell the best OSR ideas (and it's obvious they are all the best ideas because they're all the ones I used in L&D) to idiot 5e players who have no knowledge of the OSR's existence.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 16, 2023, 03:56:41 PM
The question regarding ShadowDark is this:
What does ShadowDark give me that I can't do with OSE or any other OSR product?
So far, it doesn't impress me much.
Well, if the question was "what does shadowdark give me that I can't already do in Lion & Dragon?" the answer is apparently "real time torches. that's it."
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 20, 2023, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: migo on March 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM
That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.
Yep. I don't buy games I am not going to use anymore and sell games that don't get played. Why would I buy ShadowDark when I have OSR and other games that do what it does?
So what does it take to get you to buy a game these days? Assuming you have even a small to moderate sized game library, what can a new game possibly offer you that you can't already do with the ones you currently own?
I'm not trying to call you out for being wrong or anything. I'm genuinely curious about the sentiment here as it's a bit alien to me.
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?
What two are you thinking of?
Quote from: S'mon on March 20, 2023, 06:10:49 AM
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?
I think first-wave includes near-clones like Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy RPG, as well as true clones like OSRIC, within a "D&D Dungeon Fantasy" corral. If so then Shadowdark arguably fits in there rather than with LotFP and DCC.
I think that Shadowdark pretty clearly would fall firmly in 2nd Wave. It's definitely not a clone or a near-clone, you can't claim to be a clone without vancian spellcasting for example. But as it has no inherent setting that the rules are crafted around, it's not 3rd wave.
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 12:32:22 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 20, 2023, 06:10:49 AM
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?
I think first-wave includes near-clones like Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy RPG, as well as true clones like OSRIC, within a "D&D Dungeon Fantasy" corral. If so then Shadowdark arguably fits in there rather than with LotFP and DCC.
LotFP is hardly that different though. You have the Thief tuned up to be the Expert class, and you have stuff like only the Fighter advances in attack bonus. For the most part it's pretty standard. The difference is the theme, but that's kind of like saying Ravenloft is a different system from Birthright. There are some mechanical differences, but they're more alike than different.
LotFP seems tame TODAY, after 15 years of ongoing OSR creativity.
But at a time when your OSR choices were "book that is a direct copy of AD&D 1e", "book that is a direct copy of B/X", "book that is a direct copy of B/X but with ascending AC" and "Other book that is direct copy of B/X", LotFP was RADICAL:
-no one gains attack bonuses except the fighter
-removal of a large number of standard vancian spells to create a grittier tone
-no resurrection
-thief skill rules changed
In 2023 an OSR game that made such mild changes would be uninteresting, but back then it was a real example of how change in design could be achieved to create a different form of old-school experience that was still definably old-school D&D but done better for a certain style or genre.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 20, 2023, 02:39:07 PM
If this thing is a coal mine then where is the Canary?
First canary is swapping race for ancestry. By itself it's not a big deal, but it's probably not going to be the only thing.
Second canary is the female half-orc cleric. That's buying into a particular zeitgeist, the one that imagines orcs are black people and therefore (half-)orcs need to be presented as holy and good.
Third canary is the art. Ugly women is a red flag. Now that could be written off as the primary woman being a half-orc and it is actually appropriate, but it's still noteworthy.
Each by itself isn't really much of anything. All together it's also not a sign that she's an SJW. But they are things that could justify waiting a bit to see if any more red flags start cropping up.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2023, 03:29:46 PM
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?
What two are you thinking of?
Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2023, 03:36:54 PM
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 12:32:22 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 20, 2023, 06:10:49 AM
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Here's how Pundit breaks it down.
"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.
2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).
3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."
So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?
I think first-wave includes near-clones like Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy RPG, as well as true clones like OSRIC, within a "D&D Dungeon Fantasy" corral. If so then Shadowdark arguably fits in there rather than with LotFP and DCC.
LotFP is hardly that different though. You have the Thief tuned up to be the Expert class, and you have stuff like only the Fighter advances in attack bonus. For the most part it's pretty standard. The difference is the theme, but that's kind of like saying Ravenloft is a different system from Birthright. There are some mechanical differences, but they're more alike than different.
LotFP seems tame TODAY, after 15 years of ongoing OSR creativity.
But at a time when your OSR choices were "book that is a direct copy of AD&D 1e", "book that is a direct copy of B/X", "book that is a direct copy of B/X but with ascending AC" and "Other book that is direct copy of B/X", LotFP was RADICAL:
-no one gains attack bonuses except the fighter
-removal of a large number of standard vancian spells to create a grittier tone
-no resurrection
-thief skill rules changed
In 2023 an OSR game that made such mild changes would be uninteresting, but back then it was a real example of how change in design could be achieved to create a different form of old-school experience that was still definably old-school D&D but done better for a certain style or genre.
People keep forgetting about Castles & Crusades. The changes C&C made to all versions of D&D that had been published up until that point are greater than what came into LotFP. Changing thief skills wasn't that radical of a step given AD&D 2e had already been released. Only Fighters gaining attack bonuses I'll admit was a more significant paradigm shift than anything in C&C, but that's really the one major change.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 20, 2023, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: migo on March 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM
That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.
Yep. I don't buy games I am not going to use anymore and sell games that don't get played. Why would I buy ShadowDark when I have OSR and other games that do what it does?
After several years of bouncing between systems, this has become my mantra as well. We've played a bunch of different systems and more or less identified the ones that work for us. So much so that I've got some KS stuff coming that I will likely just sell brand new as we've decided to move on from that system. Plus, the stuff is 7 months late and counting. I also skimmed the Shadowdark preview and it was an easy pass for me.
Quote from: rgalex on March 20, 2023, 03:27:02 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 20, 2023, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: migo on March 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM
That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.
Yep. I don't buy games I am not going to use anymore and sell games that don't get played. Why would I buy ShadowDark when I have OSR and other games that do what it does?
So what does it take to get you to buy a game these days? Assuming you have even a small to moderate sized game library, what can a new game possibly offer you that you can't already do with the ones you currently own?
I'm not trying to call you out for being wrong or anything. I'm genuinely curious about the sentiment here as it's a bit alien to me.
I'm similar to Ghost Ninja on this. I'm just not seeing enough there to get me interested. I don't buy things that I'm not going to play, and I probably don't buy things that I'm unlikely to play. When I had time, I didn't have the money. Now I have the money, but I don't have the time. :D
If someone in one of my groups got all excited about the game, bought it, wanted to run it, then I'd play. Heck, that would probably be enough to get a copy. Absent that, I'm focused on my own system first, and then a few other games that I already own, want to play, and haven't been able to get around to yet because of that time thing. And with what's been released thus far, I don't see anything particularly attractive about this
from my perspective.
I'm sure that having several adventures ready, and a buzz, and a slightly different mix of aesthetics and rules (for some people), and so forth is attractive to others. Me, the darker theme doesn't appeal, I'm moving even further from B/X away from 5E, not in between, and I don't need any network effect to get players. I'm not going to a Con or trying to get a bunch of people interested in any old game. I've already got more interest in my own thing right now than I can handle.
It's a bit alien to me that more people don't understand that, though I've certainly seen the opposite of it as the dominant thought in gaming for decades.
Finally, I'd say it this way: As gamers, ultimately we don't owe any particular game author anything. This isn't a community. It isn't even a club. If they produce stuff we like, we buy it. If a favorite author sometimes produces something that doesn't fit well, we might still buy it out of loyalty or encouragement to keep writing (presumably later stuff that we will enjoy). If we like it enough, we play it.
I don't care that the author is a woman. But I do care that her being a woman who is also friends with many of the people advertising and hyping this product is suspect. People are absolutely propping her up because "it's nice to see a woman game designer.". Not because her product is actually anything impressive. I just don't see what has justified the massive media blitz where this is described as oh so innovative and new. This is a lie. Outright and transparent. And I really think we need to focus on the murky nature of her contacts with various You Tubers who are advertising her. I understand they are all her friends which should be all the more reason to distrust what those people are saying. Even with the best of intentions they are going to have a bias towards their friends. That's human nature. Would those same You Tubers talk as positively about a similar product from Pundit, Venger, or other OSR guys? History shows the opposite actually. They either outright ignore it or give it a half assed review to appear unbiased when they are anything but.
Okay I just had a thought, so I'm editing this with additional stuff.
Pundit often talks about how the OSR is decentralized. And how that's a good thing. I agree with this. Now I'm going to give a hypothetical. This might not happen. But when a bunch of OSR affiliated or at least OSR covering You Tube channels are all agreeing to push one mediocre product that sets a bad precedent. 5E people are used to being told what to buy. And this game is designed to bring 5E people over to the OSR. When you have a bunch of you tubers who's opinions people rely on deciding what to cover and ignoring others knowing that influences purchasing decisions on a big level, well you might start to see the OSR becoming more of a club than a community. The "acceptable" products are pushed and talked about. Acceptable being whatever is written by whoever is in the club.
Of course the OSR will technically remain decentralized. But will that matter when the only products that make any real money are the ones that are pushed by a small group of people who decide what to push? You can always say "Well me and my group will just keep buying what we like." but will authors remain publishing real OSR content knowing they will only have a very small piece of the pie compared to the club? Of course you can say "Maybe they don't care about the money and just want to put stuff out there for people to enjoy." Which would be fine if we weren't in a financial crisis. But maybe OSR authors have enough disposable income to just dedicate the time needed to design books and games as a "side hustle." I don't, I don't know anybody who can justify that compared to just giving up and finding gainful employment to put food on the table due to others monopolizing the market. Just something to think about. Maybe everything will be fine. And Lion & Dragon will outsell Shadowdark.
Greetings!
I don't believe there is anything mysterious or "murky" about how Kelsey has become so successful with Shadowdark. Kelsey is talented, nice, non-political, and good at making friends.
Many of the OSR designers and writers, entirely fail at one or more of those key traits.
Shadowdark seems like an excellent game, and is anything but "mediocre" by any objective analysis. Kelsey has taken the best 5E elements, and many strong elements from 6 or 12 different OSR games, and organized it all into a simple, and elegant system. Then, she has presented the book with excellent layout, spacing, and design, and with outstanding artwork. Her Shadowdark book clearly shows a great love for 5E and the OSR especially.
I'm not surprised she is wildly successful. She will make millions of dollars, and be fabulously *rich*. That possibility, even as I write it with intentional hyperbole--undoubtedly makes some people grind their teeth in seething envy and enflamed jealousy. Again, though, cycle back to the key traits of her being talented, nice, non-political, and good at making friends. Lots of fucktards in the OSR and gaming in general absolutely fail at one or more of these key traits.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 03:59:50 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 20, 2023, 02:39:07 PM
If this thing is a coal mine then where is the Canary?
1. First canary is swapping race for ancestry. By itself it's not a big deal, but it's probably not going to be the only thing.
2. Second canary is the female half-orc cleric. That's buying into a particular zeitgeist, the one that imagines orcs are black people and therefore (half-)orcs need to be presented as holy and good.
3. Third canary is the art. Ugly women is a red flag. Now that could be written off as the primary woman being a half-orc and it is actually appropriate, but it's still noteworthy.
Each by itself isn't really much of anything. All together it's also not a sign that she's an SJW. But they are things that could justify waiting a bit to see if any more red flags start cropping up.
1. If that's important to you, you can cross Ancestry out and use race. nothing is stopping you from changing that.
2. This is one photo. I've uploaded 2 others that clearly show the female form and not the warped view of whatever insanity you are espousing. The males in the game range the gambit from heroic to elderly and most clearly caucasion. Page 15 of the GM guide and Page 41 of the Players Guide.
3. Point is moot as the woman with curves in her chain mail is clearly not unattractive.
You are trying to assosciate proto-SJW tropes when none is present.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2023, 03:23:35 PM
Well, if the question was "what does shadowdark give me that I can't already do in Lion & Dragon?" the answer is apparently "real time torches. that's it."
Well I have Lion and Dragon so I will look it over again. But thank you for the information.
Quote from: rgalex on March 20, 2023, 03:27:02 PMSo what does it take to get you to buy a game these days?
I have to know I will get use out of the game play or run it
Quote from: rgalex on March 20, 2023, 03:27:02 PMAssuming you have even a small to moderate sized game library
My Library is:
D&D 5e
Savage Worlds
Gangbusters 3rd edition
Gangbusters B/X
OSE PDF (I generally do not use pdfs)
More likely than not, if I run Gangbusters I will use the information out of the B/X version (which I think is better than the original) and sell the GB 3rd edition books and three modules. Ran it once but the rules aren't great so I probably wont do it again.
Quote from: rgalex on March 20, 2023, 03:27:02 PMwhat can a new game possibly offer you that you can't already do with the ones you currently own?
Well it depends on the game. For Fantasy I would like a game that gives me the fantasy experience without the overcomplication in 5e and limitations for the DM (Which right now is me). I want something easier to run.
I have Savage Worlds which allows me to run a lot of different settings, but I am a big believer of "System Maters" and settings with a system created specifically for it is superior to using a generic system. Generic system works but a system custom made for that setting is better.
Quote from: rgalex on March 20, 2023, 03:27:02 PMI'm not trying to call you out for being wrong or anything. I'm genuinely curious about the sentiment here as it's a bit alien to me.
What part of it is alien?
Quote from: Persimmon on March 20, 2023, 04:18:52 PM
After several years of bouncing between systems, this has become my mantra as well. We've played a bunch of different systems and more or less identified the ones that work for us. So much so that I've got some KS stuff coming that I will likely just sell brand new as we've decided to move on from that system. Plus, the stuff is 7 months late and counting. I also skimmed the Shadowdark preview and it was an easy pass for me.
If I could find a system that did fantasy better than D&D 5e I would probably switch just because it would make my life better. Other than that I have all I need and I don't need to spend money for a game to just sit on a shelf. The days of impulse buys are over for me.
Quote from: SHARK on March 20, 2023, 08:08:00 PM
Greetings!
I don't believe there is anything mysterious or "murky" about how Kelsey has become so successful with Shadowdark. Kelsey is talented, nice, non-political, and good at making friends.
Many of the OSR designers and writers, entirely fail at one or more of those key traits.
Shadowdark seems like an excellent game, and is anything but "mediocre" by any objective analysis. Kelsey has taken the best 5E elements, and many strong elements from 6 or 12 different OSR games, and organized it all into a simple, and elegant system. Then, she has presented the book with excellent layout, spacing, and design, and with outstanding artwork. Her Shadowdark book clearly shows a great love for 5E and the OSR especially.
I'm not surprised she is wildly successful. She will make millions of dollars, and be fabulously *rich*. That possibility, even as I write it with intentional hyperbole--undoubtedly makes some people grind their teeth in seething envy and enflamed jealousy. Again, though, cycle back to the key traits of her being talented, nice, non-political, and good at making friends. Lots of fucktards in the OSR and gaming in general absolutely fail at one or more of these key traits.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
She is a professional RPG author and publisher. She took a lot of ideas and influences and produced a tightly written, clearly laid out, nicely illustrated, well-marketed game. In other words, she is good at her job of being a professional RPG author and publisher. Lots of people have good ideas. Honestly, good ideas are the easy part. People who have the professional skills and put in the hundreds of hours of work to produce a game like Shadowdark (and of course there are others) are far less common.
Lots of people have cool ideas for novels too. But how many produce a completed manuscript?
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 20, 2023, 11:37:51 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 20, 2023, 04:18:52 PM
After several years of bouncing between systems, this has become my mantra as well. We've played a bunch of different systems and more or less identified the ones that work for us. So much so that I've got some KS stuff coming that I will likely just sell brand new as we've decided to move on from that system. Plus, the stuff is 7 months late and counting. I also skimmed the Shadowdark preview and it was an easy pass for me.
If I could find a system that did fantasy better than D&D 5e I would probably switch just because it would make my life better. Other than that I have all I need and I don't need to spend money for a game to just sit on a shelf. The days of impulse buys are over for me.
So in the last two years or so we've played or dabbled in Castles & Crusades, DCC, OSE, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Zweihander, White Box FMAG, Basic Fantasy, The One Ring 2nd Edition, and Against the Darkmaster. We even flirted with going back to MERP, as I've got pretty much the full run of that game and I will never sell it.
Out of all these, the three that have gotten the most play are OSE, Castles & Crusades, and Swords & Wizardry. OSE is still probably the easiest and quickest to run, followed by S&W. I personally like C&C a lot, but my players aren't as crazy about it and the little differences between it and the D&D clones make it slower for me to run. And the only game I've gotten others to DM is OSE. I've got a KS adventure for OSE coming soon and there will be a new edition of Swords & Wizardry released in a few months. So the current plan is to finish our current C&C mini campaign; play a bit of OSE until the Swords & Wizardry stuff arrives, then switch to that for the foreseeable future. Not sexy, but with our fairly limited gaming time, none of us want to bother with learning new systems or screwing around with so-called "modern mechanics" when we already know how shit works in our old school games.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 20, 2023, 08:18:06 PM
1. If that's important to you, you can cross Ancestry out and use race. nothing is stopping you from changing that.
Not really. Here the thing comes up of "what does Shadowdark do that a system I already own doesn't?" And the answer to that is provide an alternative system that may be very popular and easy to find other players and groups for, that is
potentially not infested with woke ideology. If the canary suggests it may after all be infested with woke ideology, and we're just not seeing it yet (Five Torches Deep for instance didn't seem that bad initially), then Shadowdark offers nothing of real value.
Quote
2. This is one photo. I've uploaded 2 others that clearly show the female form and not the warped view of whatever insanity you are espousing.
The dead giveaway is the face. The one other female is wearing a helmet with a mask and you don't see it. The one you atached is wearing a helmet with a nose guard, so you also can't see if there's the giveaway nose. It can be rationalised away, and it might be nothing. Maybe the artist for Shadowdark isn't good at drawing attractive faces. Who knows. But it's still a red flag.
Quote
3. Point is moot as the woman with curves in her chain mail is clearly not unattractive.
You are trying to assosciate proto-SJW tropes when none is present.
She's clearly not attractive either. The only thing you've got is she's clearly a woman, because it's hard to show that women are represented if they're wearing realistic armor.
There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that
doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good), to suggest you should hold off on spending your money on it, until a few more products are out and you can see which way it actually goes.
You know how some people make jokes about Trump "living rent-free in Liberal's heads"? Because everything they see as bad somehow boils down to Trump for them?
I sorta feel like "woke" is living rent-free in some people's heads, too.
I do get it; there are elements that I certainly don't prefer (And to be honest, the whole "real-time torch" thing is one of the most braindead things I've ever heard), and I don't think I'm the target market for this game. And yeah, I think the marketing blitz behind this game is at best off-putting and at worse deceptive. Criticism of the marketing is absolutely valid, I feel. And, certainly, I do detest woke ideology...
But let it succeed or fail on it's own merits. We've reached the point where people are pre-condemning it because of what it might become at some point in the future, or what the author might secretly believe, and that's just obnoxious.
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
Quote from: Festus on March 20, 2023, 11:46:17 PM
Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
She is a professional RPG author and publisher. She took a lot of ideas and influences and produced a tightly written, clearly laid out, nicely illustrated, well-marketed game. In other words, she is good at her job of being a professional RPG author and publisher. Lots of people have good ideas. Honestly, good ideas are the easy part. People who have the professional skills and put in the hundreds of hours of work to produce a game like Shadowdark (and of course there are others) are far less common.
Lots of people have cool ideas for novels too. But how many produce a completed manuscript?
I agree. Personally I hope she is successful. I have no problem with her or her product. For me its just something I dont need. I have no problem with her being successful.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 21, 2023, 12:01:32 AM
OSE is still probably the easiest and quickest to run, followed by S&W. I personally like C&C a lot, but my players aren't as crazy about it and the little differences between it and the D&D clones make it slower for me to run. And the only game I've gotten others to DM is OSE. I've got a KS adventure for OSE coming soon and there will be a new edition of Swords & Wizardry released in a few months. So the current plan is to finish our current C&C mini campaign; play a bit of OSE until the Swords & Wizardry stuff arrives, then switch to that for the foreseeable future. Not sexy, but with our fairly limited gaming time, none of us want to bother with learning new systems or screwing around with so-called "modern mechanics" when we already know how shit works in our old school games.
Thank you for the information. Do you know how it plays/runs as compared to 5e?
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."
Hmmm...
I don't think either statement is valid.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 08:30:55 AM
I do get it; there are elements that I certainly don't prefer (And to be honest, the whole "real-time torch" thing is one of the most braindead things I've ever heard), and I don't think I'm the target market for this game. And yeah, I think the marketing blitz behind this game is at best off-putting and at worse deceptive. Criticism of the marketing is absolutely valid, I feel. And, certainly, I do detest woke ideology...
Yep I agree. There are YouTube videos out there that show how unrealistic torches are and how using them in underground dungeons would be a nightmary situation (and would probably kill the people using them).
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 08:30:55 AMBut let it succeed or fail on it's own merits. We've reached the point where people are pre-condemning it because of what it might become at some point in the future, or what the author might secretly believe, and that's just obnoxious.
I agree. I have seen kickstarters that have done really well and then poof, you don't really hear much about them anymore.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 08:30:55 AM
You know how some people make jokes about Trump "living rent-free in Liberal's heads"? Because everything they see as bad somehow boils down to Trump for them?
I sorta feel like "woke" is living rent-free in some people's heads, too.
...
But let it succeed or fail on its own merits. We've reached the point where people are pre-condemning it because of what it might become at some point in the future, or what the author might secretly believe, and that's just obnoxious.
Amen. I think this thread demonstrates how there is a faction of "anti-woke" crusaders on this site who are just as bad as any woke crusaders on the Left, by seeing "woke" every time there is a woman or minority author, or a picture or name that MIGHT be a woman or minority, or God forbid, friends with a woman or minority. There is a line between being aware of (and opposed to) the forced virtue-signaling that "woke" has become, on the one hand, and just being a plain bigot on the other.
I left rpg.net because there was so much intolerance of free speech and obsession with social justice issues in games, but this site is getting ridiculous with its over abundance of bitching about the same topic. The same people yelling about free speech and free thought in gaming are filling up the boards with whining. I counted one day last week and ONE-THIRD of the front page of this discussion board was threads expressly attacking various "woke" issues. Jesus.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM
"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."
Hmmm...
I don't think either statement is valid.
I agree. I don't think the game has to be inclusive (whatever that means), I think the GM/DM and the players have to be inclusive- and allow anyone who wants to play, play. Of course there are exceptions for bad behavior, bad hygiene, etc
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 21, 2023, 09:10:51 AM
Yep I agree. There are YouTube videos out there that show how unrealistic torches are and how using them in underground dungeons would be a nightmary situation (and would probably kill the people using them).
Quibbling over the validity of using torches underground in a make believe fantasy game about elves glowing darts of force from their hands at flying semi-truck sized reptiles guarding treasure the size of a gas station while a dwarf wields an axe the size of a small kitchen table is hilarious.
There is a need for escapism and hand waving of certain elements when playing our social hobby game of Fairy Tales. Shadowdark is not claiming realism, the torch timer is for establishing tension, time management, and a sense of dread. All which is lacking in 5e and prevelant in OSR type adventures. Veins of the Earth is another book that does the "light requirement" well and paris very well to Shadowdark.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 21, 2023, 09:52:30 AM
Quibbling over the validity of using torches underground in a make believe fantasy game about elves glowing darts of force from their hands at flying semi-truck sized reptiles guarding treasure the size of a gas station while a dwarf wields an axe the size of a small kitchen table is hilarious.
Wasn't Quibbling. I know its just an elf game and realism has nothing to do with the game. I was just saying
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 21, 2023, 09:52:30 AMThere is a need for escapism and hand waving of certain elements when playing our social hobby game of Fairy Tales. Shadowdark is not claiming realism, the torch timer is for establishing tension, time management, and a sense of dread. All which is lacking in 5e and prevelant in OSR type adventures. Veins of the Earth is another book that does the "light requirement" well and paris very well to Shadowdark.
I hand wave all the time when I GM/DM. It my last session of 5e I had a room that was set up where if the characters failed the save they felt a sense of dread. No lasting effect, just dread. Not to mention light would only travel 5 feet into the room and then stop.
I agree. its not a documentary about fantasy times, it's a role playing game.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 21, 2023, 09:52:30 AM
Quibbling over the validity of using torches underground in a make believe fantasy game about elves glowing darts of force from their hands at flying semi-truck sized reptiles guarding treasure the size of a gas station while a dwarf wields an axe the size of a small kitchen table is hilarious.
There is a need for escapism and hand waving of certain elements when playing our social hobby game of Fairy Tales. Shadowdark is not claiming realism, the torch timer is for establishing tension, time management, and a sense of dread. All which is lacking in 5e and prevelant in OSR type adventures. Veins of the Earth is another book that does the "light requirement" well and paris very well to Shadowdark.
To be clear, I'm not criticizing the realism or lack thereof, I'm criticizing the whole idea of the timer mechanic.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 21, 2023, 09:52:30 AMAll which is lacking in 5e and prevelant in OSR type adventures.
Maybe at your table.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
There are, at last count, exactly 23,421 OSR games, and 12,319,545 RPGs. I counted.
What percentage of them are "truly innovative"? And what percentage of that percentage is getting torn apart to ferret out any "suspected wokeism"?
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AMWhen it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
If you have to "make sure" it isn't actually woke, it isn't woke enough to matter.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 10:29:46 AM
What percentage of them are "truly innovative"? And what percentage of that percentage is getting torn apart to ferret out any "suspected wokeism"?
Don't think the hyperbole is limited to one side in this topic. No one is getting "torn apart".
Besides, obviously woke products from the usual suspects get a different kind of attention. This is getting a critical look because it's
not obviously woke and
not obviously a product of an agenda. That is, it's cleared the first few hurdles, where now people want to know if it is good and does it interest them. If some of that attention is a mix of hope and skepticism, well the current environment causes some hesitation.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."
Hmmm...
I don't think either statement is valid.
No designer is entitled to anyone's money.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 10:29:46 AM
What percentage of them are "truly innovative"? And what percentage of that percentage is getting torn apart to ferret out any "suspected wokeism"?
If you have to "make sure" it isn't actually woke, it isn't woke enough to matter.
Other games aren't getting inspected because they don't even merit discussion.
Shadowdark has a very successful kickstarter. A lot of people have already committed financially to trying it out as a system. So it has potential as a system you might choose simply because there are people playing it, and not because it's a system you would want to pitch to your friends. That's where the point about innovation comes in. If it didn't have a successful kickstarter, it would be passed over for the lack of innovation.
So the next question is if it's worth putting up with the crap elements (stupid spell system, and while I glossed over it on the first read, the timer mechanic is also stupid). If it truly isn't woke, and it means you can play some decent games that you otherwise wouldn't get to, fine. But if Dionne turns out to be woke after all (or bends the knee), then it's about as useless as D&D 5e.
I finally got looking through the pdf and the order for attributes are modern, which sucks. I want - SIWDCCH.
Backgrounds work if the DM is lazy and doesn't work with the player making a character. Not enough variety.
The Gods are boring.
The elven names don't seem elvish.
I'm not sure what I think of spell mishap tables.
Other than that, as of right now, nothing even smacks me as new and innovative. It's really generic feeling. I am getting no - this is cool! - buzz from my reading.
Torches - if you want to be realistic, make them candles. Lantern candles.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 10:53:13 AM
Don't think the hyperbole is limited to one side in this topic. No one is getting "torn apart".
I would say the first half of that statement is true. Not the second.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 10:53:13 AMBesides, obviously woke products from the usual suspects get a different kind of attention. This is getting a critical look because it's not obviously woke and not obviously a product of an agenda. That is, it's cleared the first few hurdles, where now people want to know if it is good and does it interest them. If some of that attention is a mix of hope and skepticism, well the current environment causes some hesitation.
That's about halfway to being exactly what I'm complaining about, but not really. To connect it back to the first bit: Most games, even most new games, do not get people going over the art and trying to read the
tea leaves lack of chainmail bikinis and badly drawn faces to determine if the product comes in under some sort of "wokeness threshold".
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:09:57 AMShadowdark has a very successful kickstarter. A lot of people have already committed financially to trying it out as a system. So it has potential as a system you might choose simply because there are people playing it, and not because it's a system you would want to pitch to your friends. That's where the point about innovation comes in. If it didn't have a successful kickstarter, it would be passed over for the lack of innovation.
No, it doesn't. It may. It doesn't right now.
That said, I really don't care about the innovation question. Never have.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:09:57 AMSo the next question is if it's worth putting up with the crap elements (stupid spell system, and while I glossed over it on the first read, the timer mechanic is also stupid). If it truly isn't woke, and it means you can play some decent games that you otherwise wouldn't get to, fine. But if Dionne turns out to be woke after all (or bends the knee), then it's about as useless as D&D 5e.
You're conflating "wokeness" with the system mechanics. A spell mishap table or a stupid torch timer are not woke or non-woke or anti-woke or anything of the sort.
If you don't like the game on a mechanical level... Then don't play the game. Whether or not the game is woke or not and whether or not you want to "put up with the crap elements" should not be questions that have anything to do with each other. If you don't like the game, don't play the game, on it's own merits. If the game is "crap" to you, does it matter if it
isn't woke?
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 11:52:19 AM
That's about halfway to being exactly what I'm complaining about, but not really. To connect it back to the first bit: Most games, even most new games, do not get people going over the art and trying to read the tea leaves lack of chainmail bikinis and badly drawn faces to determine if the product comes in under some sort of "wokeness threshold".
Most games aren't noteworthy to begin with, so they don't get looked at at all.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 12:01:05 PM
Most games aren't noteworthy to begin with, so they don't get looked at at all.
Really? What hobby are you a part of?
Because I've spent an awful lot of hours of my life looking at games over the last 30 years. Big games. Small games. Games even normies have heard of, games that even you probably haven't heard of. If there's one thing gamers love to do more the game it's talk about gaming and gaming products.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 12:06:03 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 12:01:05 PM
Most games aren't noteworthy to begin with, so they don't get looked at at all.
Really? What hobby are you a part of?
Because I've spent an awful lot of hours of my life looking at games over the last 30 years. Big games. Small games. Games even normies have heard of, games that even you probably haven't heard of. If there's one thing gamers love to do more the game it's talk about gaming and gaming products.
Just because you like looking at obscure games (and I do too), doesn't suddenly make those obscure games noteworthy. Shadowdark is noteworthy by any objective measure on account of the kickstarter success. That doesn't mean it's good, just noteworthy. A game that people are not only talking about, but spending money on, to such a degree merits notice. And then you have people who wouldn't otherwise look at the game paying attention to it. And they'll pay attention in their own ways.
I get people defending this product because they may genuinely like it, but some people are protecting its honor like their daughter or mom wrote it.
Not to mention several very new accounts that seem to have joined just to shield M'lady.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 12:06:03 PM
Really? What hobby are you a part of?
Because I've spent an awful lot of hours of my life looking at games over the last 30 years. Big games. Small games. Games even normies have heard of, games that even you probably haven't heard of. If there's one thing gamers love to do more the game it's talk about gaming and gaming products.
Yes, some people are like that. If you say you are, I believe you. I've seen it before often enough that it is not a surprise. I used to be more like that than I am now.
Some of us are not like that. I don't get all excited about a new game. Or more specifically, a new set of game products. The game products are just tools that help me run the (actual) "game" at the table, with a specific setting and a group of set players. There absolutely are a ton of games. One of the first things I do is filter out to the ones that are
likely to be tools that will help me accomplish my goals. It's possible that my filter has a flaw in it (even limited to my goals), which is why I'll sometimes read reviews and blogs and participate in a forum like this one.
For example, I will probably not buy Shadowdark any time soon. I might buy some of the adventures written for it, especially given the buzz on them. So I'm quasi-interested in the conversation enough to have read every post in this thread. But not interested enough (yet) to even download the free PDF of the game and read it. I probably will be at some point, but you never know. I downloaded Talislanta 2E free PDF several weeks ago, and haven't read 20 pages in it yet.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 01:52:40 PM
Yes, some people are like that. If you say you are, I believe you. I've seen it before often enough that it is not a surprise. I used to be more like that than I am now.
Some of us are not like that. I don't get all excited about a new game. Or more specifically, a new set of game products. The game products are just tools that help me run the (actual) "game" at the table, with a specific setting and a group of set players. There absolutely are a ton of games. One of the first things I do is filter out to the ones that are likely to be tools that will help me accomplish my goals. It's possible that my filter has a flaw in it (even limited to my goals), which is why I'll sometimes read reviews and blogs and participate in a forum like this one.
For example, I will probably not buy Shadowdark any time soon. I might buy some of the adventures written for it, especially given the buzz on them. So I'm quasi-interested in the conversation enough to have read every post in this thread. But not interested enough (yet) to even download the free PDF of the game and read it. I probably will be at some point, but you never know. I downloaded Talislanta 2E free PDF several weeks ago, and haven't read 20 pages in it yet.
I'm not saying you have to buy anything. I'm not going to be buying it, either. I have no issue with people looking at something and saying, "This isn't for me", or "I have no use for this product". I do think the over-emphasis on "innovation" is... iffy... But if that's your criteria, well, I can't really say anything too critical about it.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 01:52:40 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 12:06:03 PM
Because I've spent an awful lot of hours of my life looking at games over the last 30 years. Big games. Small games. Games even normies have heard of, games that even you probably haven't heard of. If there's one thing gamers love to do more the game it's talk about gaming and gaming products.
Yes, some people are like that. If you say you are, I believe you. I've seen it before often enough that it is not a surprise. I used to be more like that than I am now.
Some of us are not like that. I don't get all excited about a new game. Or more specifically, a new set of game products. The game products are just tools that help me run the (actual) "game" at the table, with a specific setting and a group of set players.
I think there is plenty of interesting ideas that can be mined from new games and game products. However, I think most RPG gamers are more like Steven Mitchell. For most of RPG history, at least 2/3rds of players have only looked at current edition D&D, and the top dozen games are over 90% of play. It's always been only a small fraction who are interested in new small-press systems.
Historically, I've enjoyed browsing through lots of games. However, I have to say that I've turned more to only looking at RPG stuff I can directly use, and more often turning to other non-gaming sources for inspiration rather than RPG books. I haven't gone all the way, but I've turned more in that direction.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 02:58:32 PM
I'm not saying you have to buy anything. I'm not going to be buying it, either. I have no issue with people looking at something and saying, "This isn't for me", or "I have no use for this product". I do think the over-emphasis on "innovation" is... iffy... But if that's your criteria, well, I can't really say anything too critical about it.
I agree with you on innovation. Notice however that the criticism on innovation is 2 parts:
Other people (not the author) gushing that the product is innovative in ways that aren't really. That's not her fault. In fact, it's probably doing her a disservice in the long run, because it may be creating hype that the game can't possibly live up to, and even cause a backlash. It absolutely is a valid criticism to call out "reviewers" on making claims that are ignorant.
As for the game itself, innovation is overrated. It's how all the parts fit and work together that matters. The only way to know that is to try it. And of course, the presentation is a big part, both in getting people to try it, and for them to understand how the parts work.
I think it isn't for me because the focus seems to be off from what I usually enjoy. That's "off" for me, not a criticism of the product. However, I'm an outlier. The vast majority of game products are "off" for me in that way, because the mix of verisimilitude and fantastical that I prefer is seldom a focus. In theory, a more grounded fantasy game in the D&D-like space that is a cross between BEMCI and 5E ought to appeal greatly. I've said multiple times elsewhere that it is a good start on what I like. However, in practice, the choices matter, not only on where it is more like BEMCI versus 5E, as well as the tone, default sub genres, what the mechanics emphasize, the meat of it, what character types are natural to produce, etc. Moreover, having just been through a similar exercise from the inside in my own design, I've discovered that some things I thought I liked in theory I don't in practice, and vice versa.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
Why? You have no control over whether it's woke or not. Nor do you have any control over whether it sells or not. It's on track to have a larger KS in both dollars and backers than the last two Exalted Funeral OSE kickstarters
combined. By that measure it's already popular and it didn't need a "Certified as Non-Woke" sticker to achieve that. Heck, that might be a detriment to its popularity. So how is making sure it's not woke important at all? Either the game interests you or it doesn't.
"Woke" is just an excuse for people on both sides to be angry for no productive reason. The point by @Bruwulf about woke living in people's heads seems spot on to me.
Quote from: Festus on March 21, 2023, 04:21:06 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
Why? You have no control over whether it's woke or not. Nor do you have any control over whether it sells or not. It's on track to have a larger KS in both dollars and backers than the last two Exalted Funeral OSE kickstarters combined. By that measure it's already popular and it didn't need a "Certified as Non-Woke" sticker to achieve that. Heck, that might be a detriment to its popularity. So how is making sure it's not woke important at all? Either the game interests you or it doesn't.
"Woke" is just an excuse for people on both sides to be angry for no productive reason. The point by @Bruwulf about woke living in people's heads seems spot on to me.
Right, but Migo has control over where he spends his hard earned money, if he chooses to only support woke or non-woke products it's his choice and just as valid as any other measure.
It's not about "being angry" it's about supporting the products you want to support.
Given that the woke hate me as much as the KKK I won't support either.
You want to give money to some KKK member if he makes "A fun and innovative game" it's your choice, and you have no right to demand others follow your measure of what to buy or not buy.
Quote from: GamerforHire on March 21, 2023, 09:12:33 AM
...
I left rpg.net because there was so much intolerance of free speech and obsession with social justice issues in games, but this site is getting ridiculous with its over abundance of bitching about the same topic. The same people yelling about free speech and free thought in gaming are filling up the boards with whining. I counted one day last week and ONE-THIRD of the front page of this discussion board was threads expressly attacking various "woke" issues. Jesus.
These two things are not the same.
You can tell everyone on this site
that they are full of it, and you will still be able to post tomorrow.
You can't do that on RPG.net. You can't do that on ENWorld. You can't do that on the RPGpub.
This site has a lot of anti-sjw/woke gaming discussion for a very simple reason:
It is literally the
only RPG forum that you can speak against "The Narrative", and
not get banned for it.
You got 9 posts dude. You want more pure RPG talk? Start Posting some engaging RPG topics.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 21, 2023, 01:26:15 PM
I get people defending this product because they may genuinely like it, but some people are protecting its honor like their daughter or mom wrote it.
Not to mention several very new accounts that seem to have joined just to shield M'lady.
This thread has been entertaining for those reasons alone. LOL!!
Absolutely fascinating...
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 03:20:34 PM
... Notice however that the criticism on innovation is 2 parts:
Other people (not the author) gushing that the product is innovative in ways that aren't really. That's not her fault. In fact, it's probably doing her a disservice in the long run, because it may be creating hype that the game can't possibly live up to, and even cause a backlash. It absolutely is a valid criticism to call out "reviewers" on making claims that are ignorant.
^THIS^
The polished media push for the SD KS has raised the issue of the value of so-called "reviewers" in the OSR sphere...
And criticizing the validity of those "reviews" is
not an attack on the author, or the game.
Some seem rather confused on that issue.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 21, 2023, 03:20:34 PM
As for the game itself, innovation is overrated. It's how all the parts fit and work together that matters. The only way to know that is to try it. And of course, the presentation is a big part, both in getting people to try it, and for them to understand how the parts work. ...
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/1BZSEGf9nGlScdksrc/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952nop66wp7y4o09fv7zxseva0wotrekaimiw2gc3a5&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2023, 03:21:28 PM
...
The point is if Arcane Library actually hung out with real old school TSR people from lake geneva, and went to garycon a few times, but didn't necessarily ever really run into the areas where the OSR as a design school interacts (G+ in the old days, theRPGsite, MeWe, OSR facebook, the old OSR discord before it was taken over by the Maoists, the new OSR Based Discords, Twitter, and the Youtube OSR vlogosphere) it's not surprising that she doesn't understand our internal culture and how we operate, and thus interpreted my pointing out the connections between L&D and her game as an "attack", and felt she had to disavow and attack rather than engage and promote because the online design areas she has been a part of (5e, mainly) would have taught her that as a survival instinct, even though its the worst thing she could have done.
...
In addition, I think that the author didn't really know how to process the points Pundit was making for a few reasons:
1:
This is probably the first time she has gotten anything resembling significant "pushback" in her RPG writing career. From her POV; she has been hanging out with
the old school crowd, and was caught out when people in the OSR started asking "Who the hell are you!?"
2:
She probably thought that she was being rather innovative with her ideas.Multiple discovery/simultaneous invention is a real thing. I think it never occurred to her that SD would fall into that!
For example; how SD does adv/disadv with Thievery in their Thief Class is
very similar to a post I made almost two years ago how proficiencies would work in my alternate D&D skill system:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/mary-mary-quite-contrary-how-does-your-character-grow/msg1198503/#msg1198503
Pundit pointing out the connections between aspects of Shadowdarks system and L&D must have been very frustrating for her because he is able to cite many of those those "innovative" mechanics chapter and verse from his own Lion and Dragon rpg published
some six years earlier!
(I guarantee that she has a copy of L&D by now at least in pdf form, has looked at it, and gone: "WTF!?"...)Combine all that with the fact that Pundit doesn't give a fuck that she's a girl, is very direct in how he says things, and it's easy to see how the unexpected "pushback" could lead to frustration; with her interpreting it as a personal attack.
When it was really all about the ridiculously obvious promotional shill "reviews"...
The ShadowDark RPG hardly needs anyone to come to its defense. If I ever release an RPG, I can only dream that my games release generates a 23 page thread on any rpg forum full of people asking "WTF is this game!?"...
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:09:54 AM
There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good)
What is screwy about Shadowdark's magic system?
Shadowdark first caught my attention when a post appeared about it back in December of 2021 on They Might Be Gazebos. I went to the website and downloaded the pdf for the beta. I read through the pdf but it didn't grab me. I stored it on my nas with my ever-growing collection of ttrpg pdfs. When the Quickstart appeared, I downloaded it and took a look. My response was the same. It just was not compelling for me in those 2 different read-throughs.
A number of the posts touting the rosetta stone of RPGs, real-time torches, real 6th edition of D&D, etc are intriguing. I didn't find it to be much of a rosetta stone level of RPG with seamless cross-compatibility. It struck me as more of a BX derivative. I find Castles & Crusades, Blood & Treasure (1e & 2e), and Fantastic Heroes & Witchery to be better for cross-compatibility. Even Sarah Newton's Monsters & Magic felt like it was more cross-compatible than Shadowdark. Now unless I am misremembering (which is possible since it is Tuesday), I believe that Mothership, Black Hack, and even Fighting Fantasy had realtime relations for game pacing. Even West Marches Campaigns had timekeeping synced to real-time.
Usually, I jump at a BX/BECMI/RC derived RPGs but Shadowdark has not compelled me to join the Kickstarter. We shall see later on. There are other RPG products calling my money (as I slide the 9th Printing of Castles & Crusades Player's Handbook on the shelf with the previous 8 printings).
Quote from: Crusader X on March 21, 2023, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:09:54 AM
There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good)
What is screwy about Shadowdark's magic system?
Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.
Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?
So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.
Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.
So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.
Now if we go to the wizard, where suspension of disbelief is possible. Failing a skill check is reasonable for arcane magic. And having that spell burned until you can clear it out when you fail could also make sense.
So we have a problem with having one magic system being applied to two different types of magic that really shouldn't work the same.
But even with the wizard's magic, it's stupid. One day you could be casting spell after spell and not run out, and the next day you could fumble each spell the first time you can cast them.
Oh, and horrible things can happen to you when you fumble.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 21, 2023, 04:36:47 PM
Right, but Migo has control over where he spends his hard earned money, if he chooses to only support woke or non-woke products it's his choice and just as valid as any other measure.
100% agree with that. It's the apparent link Migo was implying between the game's potential popularity and the need to be concerned about its wokeness that I was questioning. It's totally valid to not like something and one isn't obligated to even have a reason. It's subjective and that's cool.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."
Hmmm...
I don't think either statement is valid.
No designer is entitled to anyone's money.
Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?
What I WAS clearly pointing out is how you and the woke are playing the ultimate version of Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man with your purity tests, placing the onus on people to prove a negative.
Having to prove one is not woke is just as retarded as having to improve inclusion.
Buy or don't buy the game. I don't care. I've already stated there is nothing that compels me to purchase it. And of all the constructive points that have been made, only Pundit's questions strike me as fair.
The fact she has a wife or might one day do something woke, is not.
And for those freedom fighters out there, when reasonable people see these ridiculous reaches, it only slows the cause. You sound just as fruity as the other side.
Quote from: Festus on March 21, 2023, 05:12:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 21, 2023, 04:36:47 PM
Right, but Migo has control over where he spends his hard earned money, if he chooses to only support woke or non-woke products it's his choice and just as valid as any other measure.
100% agree with that. It's the apparent link Migo was implying between the game's potential popularity and the need to be concerned about its wokeness that I was questioning. It's totally valid to not like something and one isn't obligated to even have a reason. It's subjective and that's cool.
I'm not saying that's why it should be questioned. I'm saying that's why it is being questioned, and other games aren't. Nobody is going to question or scrutinize a game they haven't even heard of, and if they have heard of it, don't care about to begin with.
Shadowdark is sufficiently noteworthy that people who do scrutinize games they are interested in will in fact do so. I would also scrutinize a game nobody has heard of or is talking about if it caught my interest for some other reason. But I wouldn't be posting about it on a 23 page thread here because it wouldn't have the interest to garner even a 1 page thread.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."
Hmmm...
I don't think either statement is valid.
No designer is entitled to anyone's money.
Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?
Everybody, before they spend any money on a product has the right to determine that it meets all of their requirements before they spend that money.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 21, 2023, 05:12:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 21, 2023, 04:36:47 PM
Right, but Migo has control over where he spends his hard earned money, if he chooses to only support woke or non-woke products it's his choice and just as valid as any other measure.
100% agree with that. It's the apparent link Migo was implying between the game's potential popularity and the need to be concerned about its wokeness that I was questioning. It's totally valid to not like something and one isn't obligated to even have a reason. It's subjective and that's cool.
I'm not saying that's why it should be questioned. I'm saying that's why it is being questioned, and other games aren't. Nobody is going to question or scrutinize a game they haven't even heard of, and if they have heard of it, don't care about to begin with.
Shadowdark is sufficiently noteworthy that people who do scrutinize games they are interested in will in fact do so. I would also scrutinize a game nobody has heard of or is talking about if it caught my interest for some other reason. But I wouldn't be posting about it on a 23 page thread here because it wouldn't have the interest to garner even a 1 page thread.
That's fair. Thanks for the clarification.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.
Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?
So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.
Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.
So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.
Well, I have problems with those sorts of mechanics in general, but as far as specifically applying it to a cleric goes, that's always sort of been an inherent issue with divine casters in D&D if you think about it too hard. Why is Moradin going to let his 13th level servant who has faithfully served him for years die because he arbitrarily rolled really poorly on his heal spells, or hit his arbitrary spell limit for the day?
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 21, 2023, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.
Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?
So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.
Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.
So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.
Well, I have problems with those sorts of mechanics in general, but as far as specifically applying it to a cleric goes, that's always sort of been an inherent issue with divine casters in D&D if you think about it too hard. Why is Moradin going to let his 13th level servant who has faithfully served him for years die because he arbitrarily rolled really poorly on his heal spells, or hit his arbitrary spell limit for the day?
At leas with Vancian casting it makes sense that you pray at a certain time, and get granted spells that you get to then use. If you didn't pray ahead of time, too bad. Of course there's the annoyance of not having the right spell prepared, but there is that internal consistency. It's easier to suspend disbelief there.
But obviously the much better solution is to have distinctly different magic systems, like how Spears of the Dawn handles Nganga, Griot and Marabout magic. Each system has its own flavour and works differently, rather than one system of magic with two ostensibly different implementations that more or less work the same way. If you're going to do that you should do white magic and black magic, and not have an arcane and divine split.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 06:00:38 PM
At leas with Vancian casting it makes sense that you pray at a certain time, and get granted spells that you get to then use. If you didn't pray ahead of time, too bad. Of course there's the annoyance of not having the right spell prepared, but there is that internal consistency. It's easier to suspend disbelief there.
But obviously the much better solution is to have distinctly different magic systems, like how Spears of the Dawn handles Nganga, Griot and Marabout magic. Each system has its own flavour and works differently, rather than one system of magic with two ostensibly different implementations that more or less work the same way. If you're going to do that you should do white magic and black magic, and not have an arcane and divine split.
I can kind of see that, but also not. For me, this is one of those places where the elegance of the system meets the handling time meets the simulation meets the game part. That is, it's rife with compromises. Though I do agree that the arcane/divine split is not the best way to handle it, if the systems are going to be similar. Whatever you decide, it's going to be messy. Some people will be unhappy with how the compromises play out.
As someone who appreciates having the players sweat on the reliability of magic, I can appreciate the attempt.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:17:58 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."
Hmmm...
I don't think either statement is valid.
No designer is entitled to anyone's money.
Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?
Everybody, before they spend any money on a product has the right to determine that it meets all of their requirements before they spend that money.
Quote me where I was denying someone's rights or said a designer is entitled to money.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 21, 2023, 09:01:14 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 21, 2023, 12:01:32 AM
OSE is still probably the easiest and quickest to run, followed by S&W. I personally like C&C a lot, but my players aren't as crazy about it and the little differences between it and the D&D clones make it slower for me to run. And the only game I've gotten others to DM is OSE. I've got a KS adventure for OSE coming soon and there will be a new edition of Swords & Wizardry released in a few months. So the current plan is to finish our current C&C mini campaign; play a bit of OSE until the Swords & Wizardry stuff arrives, then switch to that for the foreseeable future. Not sexy, but with our fairly limited gaming time, none of us want to bother with learning new systems or screwing around with so-called "modern mechanics" when we already know how shit works in our old school games.
Thank you for the information. Do you know how it plays/runs as compared to 5e?
Well, I bought 5e stuff a couple years after it dropped and simply didn't like it. Despite their marketing gimmicks of claiming it was some kind of return to the old ways & feel, it did not feel like D&D to me at all. I hated pretty much everything about it. So I flipped all my 5e books online and switch to C&C. A couple years later I decided to check out Adventures in Middle Earth, which was the 5e version of The One Ring. Hated that too. Jumped into Labyrinth Lord Advanced and other retroclones around then and while I've experimented a bit since then, I always come back to the familiarity of the old school games. I started in 1981 with the Moldvay boxed set and started AD&D shortly after, so that stuff will always be true D&D to me. Newer players might find the mechanics clunky, but I know those games so well, I hardly ever look things up in the books while playing. That means we get far more actual gaming in, which matters to us.
So things like Shadowdark hold no appeal for me.
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
Quote from: Crusader X on March 21, 2023, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:09:54 AM
There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good)
What is screwy about Shadowdark's magic system?
Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.
Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?
So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.
Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.
So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.
Now if we go to the wizard, where suspension of disbelief is possible. Failing a skill check is reasonable for arcane magic. And having that spell burned until you can clear it out when you fail could also make sense.
So we have a problem with having one magic system being applied to two different types of magic that really shouldn't work the same.
But even with the wizard's magic, it's stupid. One day you could be casting spell after spell and not run out, and the next day you could fumble each spell the first time you can cast them.
Oh, and horrible things can happen to you when you fumble.
All of this of course being in DCC for the last decade plus. So again, it's neither innovative nor original.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 21, 2023, 10:13:47 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
Quote from: Crusader X on March 21, 2023, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:09:54 AM
There's enough of concern in Shadowdark, for a game that doesn't offer anything new or special (and does have a screwy magic system, a lot of systems use it, that doesn't make it good)
What is screwy about Shadowdark's magic system?
Imagine you're a cleric. You get spells from your god. You have to roll a skill check to cast these spells.
Ok, that's the first thing. Your god is going to let spells fail at all, just because?
So we throw away that suspension of disbelief starts getting more difficult here.
Now, on a failed skill check, it means you can't cast that spell anymore. On a critical fail you have earned the disfavour of your god, and can't cast the spell again until you have completed some kind of penance.
So here it gets really hard. You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.
All of this of course being in DCC for the last decade plus. So again, it's neither innovative nor original.
I agree the mishap system seems to fit arcane magic better, but the notion of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or that the gods are capricious, fickle, or uncaring is hardly uncommon. I don't think a Vancian system for clerics is better. Why would a god of healing deny their disciple the power to heal if a great saint of the faith were on death's door, just because they'd used up their daily allotment of spells or slots? If you're going to have divine magic and some semblance of game balance there has to be a limiting mechanic of some kind. Whatever that mechanic is you have to do some gymnastics to make it fit the fiction.
I don't dig the penance mechanic tho. I think some kind of mishap triggered by interference of demonic forces or unholy energies would make more sense. It's not that your god is mad at you, but rather you failed to have the calm mind and strength of faith to tap into your god's energy. You let doubt or anger or fear fluster you and gave evil forces an opening to do harm. Go full Manichean and lean into the cosmic battle between Law and Chaos.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 06:49:54 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:17:58 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."
Hmmm...
I don't think either statement is valid.
No designer is entitled to anyone's money.
Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?
Everybody, before they spend any money on a product has the right to determine that it meets all of their requirements before they spend that money.
Quote me where I was denying someone's rights or said a designer is entitled to money.
I did. And it's in this one too. The part where you said you don't think either statement is valid.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 21, 2023, 10:13:47 PM
All of this of course being in DCC for the last decade plus. So again, it's neither innovative nor original.
Well, add one more reason that I'll never be playing DCC!
Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 12:19:55 AM
I agree the mishap system seems to fit arcane magic better, but the notion of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or that the gods are capricious, fickle, or uncaring is hardly uncommon. I don't think a Vancian system for clerics is better. Why would a god of healing deny their disciple the power to heal if a great saint of the faith were on death's door, just because they'd used up their daily allotment of spells or slots? If you're going to have divine magic and some semblance of game balance there has to be a limiting mechanic of some kind. Whatever that mechanic is you have to do some gymnastics to make it fit the fiction.
In the D&D cosmology, worshippers of a particular deity go to be permanent servants of that deity when they die. A worshipper dying isn't a bad thing to them. And they don't want to give everything easily. They want as many completely devout followers as possible, not just ones that are happy to pray when injured just for the healing. So they drip feed the spells, give you enough to keep you hooked, but won't give you anything extra except in extreme circumstances.
Quote
I don't dig the penance mechanic tho. I think some kind of mishap triggered by interference of demonic forces or unholy energies would make more sense. It's not that your god is mad at you, but rather you failed to have the calm mind and strength of faith to tap into your god's energy. You let doubt or anger or fear fluster you and gave evil forces an opening to do harm. Go full Manichean and lean into the cosmic battle between Law and Chaos.
I don't think I'd like the mechanic itself anymore if explained like that, but yeah, the suspension of disbelief would be easier.
Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 12:19:55 AM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.
I agree the mishap system seems to fit arcane magic better, but the notion of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or that the gods are capricious, fickle, or uncaring is hardly uncommon.
Gods are dicks.
Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 03:18:18 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 06:49:54 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:17:58 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 11:03:34 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 09:03:44 AM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 08:55:27 AM
If Shadowdark were truly innovative, it might not make such a big deal.
When it's the potential of having a popular non-woke fantasy RPG, making sure that it actually isn't woke is completely valid.
"When it's the potential of having a popular fantasy RPG, making sure that it is inclusive is completely valid."
Hmmm...
I don't think either statement is valid.
No designer is entitled to anyone's money.
Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?
Everybody, before they spend any money on a product has the right to determine that it meets all of their requirements before they spend that money.
Quote me where I was denying someone's rights or said a designer is entitled to money.
I did. And it's in this one too. The part where you said you don't think either statement is valid.
That had nothing to do with a designer being entitled to money. It also had nothing to do with purchasing or not purchasing the product.
It had everything to do with the part of my quote that you left out. Which you of course know. That is why you left it out.
You are the other side of the same coin. You even shift arguments the same.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 21, 2023, 05:15:01 PM
Huh? Where did I say a designer is entitled to someone's money?
What I WAS clearly pointing out is how you and the woke are playing the ultimate version of Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man with your purity tests, placing the onus on people to prove a negative.
Having to prove one is not woke is just as retarded as having to improve inclusion.
Buy or don't buy the game. I don't care. I've already stated there is nothing that compels me to purchase it. And of all the constructive points that have been made, only Pundit's questions strike me as fair.
The fact she has a wife or might one day do something woke, is not.
And for those freedom fighters out there, when reasonable people see these ridiculous reaches, it only slows the cause. You sound just as fruity as the other side.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 22, 2023, 05:53:00 AM
That had nothing to do with a designer being entitled to money. It also had nothing to do with purchasing or not purchasing the product.
It had everything to do with the part of my quote that you left out. Which you of course know. That is why you left it out.
You are the other side of the same coin. You even shift arguments the same.
Even if it were true (it's not) that we're the same side of the coin, making sure that a game is inclusive enough IS completely valid. If you're woke and want to make sure that you only give money to games that are woke enough, you are completely in your right to do so, and to scrutinize prospective games to make sure they meet *your* requirements.
Quote from: Vile Traveller on March 22, 2023, 05:50:27 AM
Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 12:19:55 AM
Quote from: migo on March 21, 2023, 05:10:52 PM
You earn the disfavour of your god not through your actions (conscious or unwitting), but through bad luck with your skill. And now you have to seek penance. I can't suspend my disbelief there.
I agree the mishap system seems to fit arcane magic better, but the notion of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or that the gods are capricious, fickle, or uncaring is hardly uncommon.
Gods are dicks.
You know, with the implied setting of the Lamentations of the Flame Princess rules, or with Ravenloft, I could see that mechanic actually fitting. I didn't get that vibe from Shadowdark.
Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 07:17:35 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 22, 2023, 05:53:00 AM
That had nothing to do with a designer being entitled to money. It also had nothing to do with purchasing or not purchasing the product.
It had everything to do with the part of my quote that you left out. Which you of course know. That is why you left it out.
You are the other side of the same coin. You even shift arguments the same.
Even if it were true (it's not) that we're the same side of the coin, making sure that a game is inclusive enough IS completely valid. If you're woke and want to make sure that you only give money to games that are woke enough, you are completely in your right to do so, and to scrutinize prospective games to make sure they meet *your* requirements.
Something can be both valid and stupid at the same time.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 22, 2023, 07:49:44 AM
Something can be both valid and stupid at the same time.
The recursion is killing me. Be careful we don't go into an infinite loop.
Two sides don't have to be 1:1 equivalent for equivalencies to exist, even if one of them is demonstrably worse than the other. And this thread is definitely an example of how people obsessed with the muh culture war can become just like people on the other side in many ways. I mean, Jeeses Christ! This thing has gone on for like 24 pages, and most of it is nitpicky bullshit about how the author used "Ancestry" instead of race, and didn't push on the woke mob hard enough even though she doesn't seem to be openly woke (which likely means she isn't, cuz why the hell would she hide what, when that's the side with the mainstream cultural power?).
The only valid points made have been how inorganic the push for this game has been, which I noticed as well. The rest has been whining about how the game isn't OSR enough, or lacks innovation, like anything in current D&D or the entirety of the OSR hasn't already been done by some other system decades ago. Or desperately looking for signs that the author might be secretly woke, or not anti-woke enough. Which totally isn't similar at all to what the other side does, you guys! There's only ONE side obsessed with looking for signs of political purity or lack of it.
Actually, at least half of this topic has been people complaining about other comments. Repeating the same complaints about those comments. There's been a fair amount of word-twisting, selective quoting, and a lot of insinuations. Not to mention plain old-fashioned misunderstanding. That's why it has gone on this long.
I don't know why this would be surprising to anyone. In any forum, on any topic, happy-go-lucky threads about RPG thing X seldom go on for very long, because when everyone agrees, there isn't much to talk about. You can only do the, "Great post, totally agree!" thing so long.
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2023, 08:20:05 AM
The only valid points made have been how inorganic the push for this game has been, which I noticed as well.
From an OSR perspective, I think the push feels more inorganic than it actually is. I first became aware of Dionne because Runehammer did an interview with her about her 5e adventure design 4-ish years ago. Her 5e adventures have been big sellers and highly praised in the 5e world for awhile, and I suspect most of her KS backers come from the 5e sphere. As 5e kickstarters go, a million dollars is good but not weirdly so.
Hi Guys..
I'm new to this site and will admit that I was drawn here by the ShadowDark discussion. I'm enthusiastic but not necessarily for the same reason as some posters and do not agree with some of the criticisms, again for different reasons.
By way of introduction: I've been role-playing since the early 80s, mainly Runequest, but also AD&D, Traveller and Call of Cthulhu. I've been DMing 5e for just about as long as it has been out because that's what's easiest to get players for in my role-playing club. I have, however, occasionally managed to get my group to try one-shots of Black Hack, Barbarians of Lemuria, Into the Odd and ran Stonehell on-line for a while, So, I think I could be said to have a foot in many camps. Indeed, D&D in any of its forms has never been my favourite, I find it too fiddly, subject to power creep and a pain to DM as players come up with weird character builds based on books I don't have.
So part of my enthusiasm for ShadowDark is based on the fact that it's not 5e. It doesn't seem to suffer particularly from power creep as it only goes up to 10th level and you don't get any overpowering abilities as you level up. It's also a notch simpler than 5e and it will not be a struggle to know all the rules. As a bonus, the surface similarities to 5e (advantage, ascending AC, etc.) are likely to make it easier to persuade my group to play it.
Another reason for my enthusiasm is that the system has enough traction to be well supported. Already there are quite a few add-ons and adventures on DriveThru although, admittedly their quality is, to say the least, variable. Kelsey herself, however, on the basis of her published 5e stuff is a very accomplished adventure writer and I expect that she will keep up the quality for ShadowDark.
I'm not sure yet about the magic. With a 1 in 20 chance of a wizard mishap and some of these almost potentially fatal, it's a wonder that any wizard would survive their apprenticeship.
I don't have so much problem with the cleric equivalents as the required penances (at least at low levels) are not particularly onerous.
I think the timed torch rule might be a bit fiddly at the table but I'm happy to give it a go.
What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship. A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.
I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!
Quote from: MadMattUK on March 22, 2023, 10:31:16 AMSo part of my enthusiasm for ShadowDark is based on the fact that it's not 5e. It doesn't seem to suffer particularly from power creep as it only goes up to 10th level and you don't get any overpowering abilities as you level up. It's also a notch simpler than 5e and it will not be a struggle to know all the rules. As a bonus, the surface similarities to 5e (advantage, ascending AC, etc.) are likely to make it easier to persuade my group to play it.
That's a big thing for me as well. I sort of wish that WotC would publish a Player's Handbook with only level 1-10 content, and in some ways this game may do that for me. I think my group would never play this BTB because they won't want to be limited to 4 class options, but I hope there will be a bunch of ideas I can use in my regular 5E game.
Quote from: Bruwulf on March 22, 2023, 07:49:44 AM
Something can be both valid and stupid at the same time.
There's nothing stupid about making sure leisure purchases align to your personal preferences.
I'm not going to get something non-essential made in China (so any RPG, even from a clearly non-woke publisher, printed in China is out), but if I need to buy light bulbs, and the only ones in store are made in China, I'll buy them.
Quote from: MadMattUK on March 22, 2023, 10:38:48 AM
I'm not sure yet about the magic. With a 1 in 20 chance of a wizard mishap and some of these almost potentially fatal, it's a wonder that any wizard would survive their apprenticeship.
I don't have so much problem with the cleric equivalents as the required penances (at least at low levels) are not particularly onerous.
I think the timed torch rule might be a bit fiddly at the table but I'm happy to give it a go.
Yeah, the fatality is another thing. It would be acceptable in a pulp context, where someone who's never cast any spells in their life but has studied ancient languages tries casting a spell from a spellbook they retrieved that caused the monster that's chasing them to start chasing them. Then chance of death seems reasonable.
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:25:25 PM
What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship. A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.
I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!
It's that the reason for disapproval from the god is retarded. You rolled a natural 1, now your god is displeased with you. That's terrible. Not you acted against your god's wishes, now your god is displeased with you. That's awesome.
Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 12:37:17 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:25:25 PM
What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship. A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.
I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!
It's that the reason for disapproval from the god is retarded. You rolled a natural 1, now your god is displeased with you. That's terrible. Not you acted against your god's wishes, now your god is displeased with you. That's awesome.
I can appreciate your criticism, if you take that perspective. But that's only one perspective.
Another perspective is that the roll doesn't model the character's action - It models the god's action. I.e., the god has finally got around to paying attention to your shenanigans and he/she/it is pissed. Oh, what's that? You're a perfectly pious cleric and have never done anything worthy of disapproval? Haha, right!
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 12:37:17 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:25:25 PM
What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship. A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.
I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!
It's that the reason for disapproval from the god is retarded. You rolled a natural 1, now your god is displeased with you. That's terrible. Not you acted against your god's wishes, now your god is displeased with you. That's awesome.
I can appreciate your criticism, if you take that perspective. But that's only one perspective.
Another perspective is that the roll doesn't model the character's action - It models the god's action. I.e., the god has finally got around to paying attention to your shenanigans and he/she/it is pissed. Oh, what's that? You're a perfectly pious cleric and have never done anything worthy of disapproval? Haha, right!
If that were the intention behind the design, it would have been designed better - and made clear. Since it obviously wasn't, that's just a post hoc justification for a poorly thought out mechanic.
Worth remembering though that the penance for a 1st Tier clerical mishap is goods and services to the value of 5GP. Hardly onerous and arguably something that the cleric should be doing anyhow. (Offering sacrifices, running a soup kitchen for the poor, etc.). Admittedly it goes up with higher tiers but never more than 150GP and, by the time the cleric is in a position to cast 5th Tier spells, that's going to be pocket change).
The good thing about OSR in general is that it's easy to swap rules in or out and I'm sure I could think of something to replace the mishaps if I put my mind to it.
Also, the XP for treasure is abstracted. It isn't 1 XP for 1 GP but 1:3:6 XP for good:better:best treasure. There is no XP penalty for having to spend gold in penance. It's really a mechanism to use up a cleric's gold and reinforce roleplaying. If your world features something like the medieval Catholic vow of poverty, the mechanic reinforces that fiction.
I still think I'd flavor it differently, but the outcome seems fine and no more arbitrary than a lot of mechanics in a lot of games.
Quote from: MadMattUK on March 22, 2023, 01:07:56 PM
Worth remembering though that the penance for a 1st Tier clerical mishap is goods and services to the value of 5GP. Hardly onerous and arguably something that the cleric should be doing anyhow. (Offering sacrifices, running a soup kitchen for the poor, etc.). Admittedly it goes up with higher tiers but never more than 150GP and, by the time the cleric is in a position to cast 5th Tier spells, that's going to be pocket change).
The good thing about OSR in general is that it's easy to swap rules in or out and I'm sure I could think of something to replace the mishaps if I put my mind to it.
Like you said, they should be doing it anyway, so why does it only come in with a bad roll? And it still doesn't change that tying it to a roll, and not the character's actions makes the experience less immersive, rather than more.
It's a much better experience if the GM notes the PC's actions (and perhaps those of the party members) and if they go against the deity's ethos, the cleric loses a level or two of spells. Tries to cast a spell and... nothing. They realize their god is displeased. Have to think about everything that happened, figure out what it was. And then make amends for that.
When the cleric was supposed to throw in a powerful buff spell and couldn't, and the party barely escapes with their lives, that makes them seriously think about the consequences of their actions.
That would be something great. Here we've just got an alternative to Vancian casting, but the problem with alternatives to Vancian casting is just because they're different, doesn't mean they're good.
Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 01:44:53 PM
Also, the XP for treasure is abstracted. It isn't 1 XP for 1 GP but 1:3:6 XP for good:better:best treasure. There is no XP penalty for having to spend gold in penance. It's really a mechanism to use up a cleric's gold and reinforce roleplaying. If your world features something like the medieval Catholic vow of poverty, the mechanic reinforces that fiction.
I still think I'd flavor it differently, but the outcome seems fine and no more arbitrary than a lot of mechanics in a lot of games.
If you have a vow of poverty, and have to give up your gold past a certain level anyway, doesn't that basically mean if penance equals gold, you have a certain number of "free" violations of your god's ethos before it starts being an actual penalty?
Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 02:28:48 PM
If you have a vow of poverty, and have to give up your gold past a certain level anyway, doesn't that basically mean if penance equals gold, you have a certain number of "free" violations of your god's ethos before it starts being an actual penalty?
You mean like the real medieval practice of buying and selling indulgences? Yes, that is exactly what it means, just like in actual history.
Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 12:48:07 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: migo on March 22, 2023, 12:37:17 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 22, 2023, 12:25:25 PM
What's the beef with clerics rolling for spells and possible disapproval from their gods? Having played clerics in DCC, I found it a great way to promote role play. So many systems treat clerics as warriors with healing spells and gods as mere fluff. Fuck me sometimes players don't even remember which god they worship. A cleric's god should be THE #1 focus of their character.
I found the DCC approach to be quite rewarding. You are encouraged to preach the gospel, start a cult, tsk tsk heathen NPCs and PCs. If Shadowdark is borrowing this, that's great!
It's that the reason for disapproval from the god is retarded. You rolled a natural 1, now your god is displeased with you. That's terrible. Not you acted against your god's wishes, now your god is displeased with you. That's awesome.
I can appreciate your criticism, if you take that perspective. But that's only one perspective.
Another perspective is that the roll doesn't model the character's action - It models the god's action. I.e., the god has finally got around to paying attention to your shenanigans and he/she/it is pissed. Oh, what's that? You're a perfectly pious cleric and have never done anything worthy of disapproval? Haha, right!
If that were the intention behind the design, it would have been designed better - and made clear. Since it obviously wasn't, that's just a post hoc justification for a poorly thought out mechanic.
It's pretty clear to me from the brief discussion of disapproval in DCC. Roll a 1 and your cleric "discovers" that he's earned the disapproval of his god, here is the outcome, and the Judge normally connect the dots to fit the campaign. The rolling of the 1 does not represent the cleric's action that caused the disapproval. I'm not even sure where you're seeing ambiguity let alone post hoc justification. Where are you seeing it in the rules or commentary?
Greetings!
I think that the "Penance" mechanic is great. I view the chance of a spell failure for Clerics--or even a "Spell Mishap" as being some form of minor judgment against them, a kind of spiritual admonition, is also fine.
Your Priest character is not anywhere near as special as many would like to believe. You are mortal, and right from the start, you are wicked, sinful, disobedient, and worthy of judgment. Only through faith and continued perseverance in that righteous faith and obedience even allows you a hope of channeling such miraculous, divine power. Your sinful and debauched priest characters should be grateful that the Heavens bless you with even one such spell in a day.
Furthermore, you sow-mined and faithless morons, hear your spiritual betters! Chastise thyself from your own exalted pride and smug, self-satisfaction! The spirit realm is *real*. Evil, demonic forces are always gathered about, whispering and seducing, and distracting mortals from embracing righteousness and TRUTH. Even more so, for those people called to serve as Priests. There is spiritual warfare going on all the time, 24/7. Not merely around YOU--but also *within you*--in your soul, in your mind. It is from such impure thoughts, even that, besides anything else, that can interfere with a Priest successfully channeling a spell from the Heavens.
So, roll your D20 Spell Check, and pray you are blessed with a moment of righteous success.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Quote from: Festus on March 22, 2023, 10:12:44 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2023, 08:20:05 AM
The only valid points made have been how inorganic the push for this game has been, which I noticed as well.
From an OSR perspective, I think the push feels more inorganic than it actually is. I first became aware of Dionne because Runehammer did an interview with her about her 5e adventure design 4-ish years ago. Her 5e adventures have been big sellers and highly praised in the 5e world for awhile, and I suspect most of her KS backers come from the 5e sphere. As 5e kickstarters go, a million dollars is good but not weirdly so.
Even at a casual glance the sudden push seemed suspect to me, cuz I'm not even OSR. Yet all of a sudden I started getting glowing reviews left and right recommended to me in YouTube, and the few I saw (like from DungeonCraft) got a really strong "pimping this for my friend" vibe to it--which isn't necessarily a bad thing (at least not horrible), but does bring up ethical questions, as was brought up earlier on the thread. Cuz it's not necessarily pushed on the merits, but cuz "I have friends working on this thing" (not just the woman writing it, but I believe Runehammer did design work, who's also friends with and has worked with Prof.DM), and I don't recall them disclosing their ties, though, I haven't really delved on them after the first wave like a week+ ago.
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2023, 05:23:11 PM
Even at a casual glance the sudden push seemed suspect to me, cuz I'm not even OSR. Yet all of a sudden I started getting glowing reviews left and right recommended to me in YouTube, and the few I saw (like from DungeonCraft) got a really strong "pimping this for my friend" vibe to it--which isn't necessarily a bad thing (at least not horrible), but does bring up ethical questions, as was brought up earlier on the thread. Cuz it's not necessarily pushed on the merits, but cuz "I have friends working on this thing" (not just the woman writing it, but I believe Runehammer did design work, who's also friends with and has worked with Prof.DM), and I don't recall them disclosing their ties, though, I haven't really delved on them after the first wave like a week+ ago.
Dionne and Runehammer have been totally transparent about their friendship. She's called him a mentor and he's been praising her stuff literally for years. That's old news to anyone who has followed either. I can't speak to the others because I haven't followed them like I have Runehammer. But since Brandish Gilhelm (Runehammer) does art, layout design, and publishing, he's worked with a lot of other creators.
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Yet another reason to skip it. I hate running with the pack.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 22, 2023, 08:12:14 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Yet another reason to skip it. I hate running with the pack.
Hey, man, if old Business Majors dig it, it must be radical!
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 22, 2023, 08:27:49 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 22, 2023, 08:12:14 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Yet another reason to skip it. I hate running with the pack.
Hey, man, if old Business Majors dig it, it must be radical!
Don't you dare sully the good reputation of Huey Lewis & the News....
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DishonestIndolentHoneybee-size_restricted.gif)
What more is there to say...
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Persimmon on March 22, 2023, 09:11:17 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 22, 2023, 08:27:49 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 22, 2023, 08:12:14 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Yet another reason to skip it. I hate running with the pack.
Hey, man, if old Business Majors dig it, it must be radical!
Don't you dare sully the good reputation of Huey Lewis & the News....
In '87, Huey released Fore!, their most accomplished album. I think their undisputed masterpiece is "Hip To Be Square". A song so catchy, most people probably don't listen to the lyrics. But they should, because it's not just about the pleasures of conformity and the importance of trends. It's also a personal statement about the band itself. Hey, Persimmon!
(Murders Persimmon with an axe)
Try reviewing gaming systems now, you fuckin' stupid bastard!
Getting back on topic, is there anything more damning of this new game than fucking Forbes gushing about it in an article? Considering the creator's wife is a Lesbian, she sure seems to have her hands on a lot of slimy industry tentacles.
"Sports" is a better album than "Fore," though the latter isn't bad. But yeah, the Forbes endorsement, if anything, is an indictment of quality not a indication.
There are two kinds of marketing. In brief, we'll call them "discovery" and "promotion." In the paradigm of discovery, marketing exists to find consumers for whom your product meets a need that they already have and recognize. For example, an add for laundry detergent might describe common issues with laundry detergents (not cleaning well enough, needing pretreatment, etc.) and then describe how the product meets those challenges and/or fills the requirements of the consumer. The key here is that the marketing is NOT trying to establish a need for the overall product; it is simply trying to inform the consumer of the properties of a product the consumer already desires. Most beer ads would fall into this category.
Then there's what we'll call promotional marketing. This kind attempts to create new consumers for a product. It is framed to suggest that the consumer actually needs the product, despite never knowing about that product or recognizing the need for it. This kind of marketing focuses on persuading the consumer that they need the general utility filled by the product, and less on the features of the product within its own product space. Rather than contrast the features of the product versus other products competing in the same space, the advertisement focuses on the utility of the product for those who have never expressed a use for that product category. Think exercise equipment adds. They tend to be directed towards the consumer would wants to start exercising, as opposed folks firmly in the exercise space who just need a different kind of exercise bike.
Now, good marketing tends to include elements of both types. Discovery marketing runs a risk of never reaching critical mass. If you are trying to grab a part of an already small market, you may not gain enough share to be sustainable without growing the consumer base. Adding one more laundry detergent may simply fragment the market to the point where both the new product and many of the old products are sold at a rate that doesn't allow them to be profitable. But promotional marketing runs the risk of alienating consumers when they discover that they didn't actually need the product after all. How many people have unused exercise equipment in their garage? How likely are they to continue to buy exercise bikes in the future, when they don't use the one they have? So the most successful marketing both identifies those who are already looking for your product, and also grows the base in those sectors where the need is genuine. And that's where this all ties into Shadowdark.
The marketing profession today leans far more heavily into promotional marketing. What major corporation wants a slow, steady increase in consumer base? Virtually none. They'd all rather have the massive glut of sales from a fad, even if it's not sustainable. So, the promotion of Shadowdark starts to make sense, especially when you find out the creator's partner has marketing experience. From almost out of nowhere, all of the Youtube channels I watch about RPG products are gushing about this new game that will revolutionize RPGs! We just have to play it! There's a preview PDF, but every marketer worth their salt knows that consumers are generally low-effort. Consumers pay far more attention to what they hear via ads, as opposed to information they have to work to find. Very little of the promotion has been about the game and its mechanics, about specifics. This triggers alarms in just about anyone who has been burned by promotional marketing. Don't tell me that I need it; tell me how it meets my needs. And that hasn't been the focus of the marketing I've seen so far, especially among the Youtube "influencers" that have weighed in on the game.
I think that Shadowdark was being built, and then was rushed to a Kickstarter when the OGL 1.1 fiasco occurred. The marketing brains recognized that the OGL mess provided both a need and a promotional opportunity. Then, when WotC caved (at least to public perception), the whole "need" part of the marketing got counterfeited. So the game and promotion was left with a "You need this game! It's new and innovative!", instead of the probable appeal that would have been based on its mostly non-OGL format (there is some 5.1 SRD).
So I think that some of the knee-jerk wariness about the game is the direct result of the way it has been marketed. As is apparent from the folks in this thread, there are a large number of people who don't really see the need for the game (and are unpersuaded by appeals to "growing the community" or "bridging the gap between 5e and OSR") and view it as glorified houserules with slick packaging. And the slick packaging also helps trigger those knee-jerk impulses. And the Shadowdark Defense Brigades are doing the game no favors. You don't convince people that a product meets their needs by accusing them of unreasonably hating the game due to sexism, blah, blah, blah. You can tell who the SJW shills are, simply because they never attempt to persuade, only denigrate and shame.
The game might be financially successful. Good for her. But I'll be real curious as to how easy it is to find a game of Shadowdark on Roll20 3-5 years from now. This has all the hallmarks of fad marketing. Maybe it won't be. But I'm betting this game will end up next to the Beanie Babies, Bowflex, and Peleton in the garage...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 22, 2023, 10:42:41 PM
I think that Shadowdark was being built, and then was rushed to a Kickstarter when the OGL 1.1 fiasco occurred.
Just as a point of information, the Kickstarter date was set in advance of the whole OGL fiasco. In fact, when everything started going tits up, she put out a video on YouTube mentioning that she might have to push the planned Kickstarter back because she was going through and scrubbing the OGL out of the game. But as it turns out she got things in order ahead of time and was able to launch the KS project as planned.
Greetings!
Nice Marketing primer, Eirikrautha!
Forbes having an article about the game doesn't surprise me, really. I don't understand the gnashing hate people seem to have though. Geesus. The girl Kelsey was a professional Journalist for some years. A *Newspaper* journalist. She learned several skills, I am sure--things like writing well; presentation; layout; research; and also marketing. THEN, her companion is a marketing professional. I imagine that they have made friends and contacts amongst various media and marketing outlets. Have a phone call, "Hey, Suzie Q! Say something good about our game!" Or "Hi, Joe! Can you look this game draft over and help me with layout?" Then, Kelsey is also friends with RUNEHAMMER, who is also a game designer, artist, and knows things about layout, presentation, and other technical aspects.
These are normal relationships and interactions for people.
Sometimes, the vibe I hear from people is "Oh MY GOD! Kelsey has FRIENDS! Kelsey has made contacts with people in the OSR and other industries! SUS!!!!"
It's all about networking and making friends. That's how success is built.
I think some people involved with the OSR and gaming must live in a fucking outhouse, or under a fucking bridge.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My jump the shark gif was definitely over target...
Quote from: SHARK on March 22, 2023, 11:19:15 PM
Forbes having an article about the game doesn't surprise me, really. I don't understand the gnashing hate people seem to have though. Geesus.
...
These are normal relationships and interactions for people.
...
Got it wrong homie.
Nobody cares that she has friends.
And it's definitely
not hate. It's just an elfgame...
It's the sheer W.T.F.!?
Novelty of seeing a borderline Wotzi/Baizuo level product launch of an indie Game marketed to the OSR crowd.
For me. Literally this:
(https://media.tenor.com/yfJlSRz68MYAAAAM/michael-jackson-michael.gif)
I can't hate the hustle. These chicks brought their marketing 'A' game for sure!
But come on man - an article in
*Forbes online!?
At this point, that shits just
hilarious!
When you engage in marketing like this:
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 22, 2023, 10:42:41 PM
...
The marketing profession today leans far more heavily into promotional marketing. What major corporation wants a slow, steady increase in consumer base? Virtually none. They'd all rather have the massive glut of sales from a fad, even if it's not sustainable. So, the promotion of Shadowdark starts to make sense, especially when you find out the creator's partner has marketing experience. From almost out of nowhere, all of the Youtube channels I watch about RPG products are gushing about this new game that will revolutionize RPGs! We just have to play it! There's a preview PDF, but every marketer worth their salt knows that consumers are generally low-effort. Consumers pay far more attention to what they hear via ads, as opposed to information they have to work to find. Very little of the promotion has been about the game and its mechanics, about specifics. This triggers alarms in just about anyone who has been burned by promotional marketing.
...
And it hits a group of straight-up
Jaded OSR motherfuckers like the kind that inhabit this board...
It shouldn't be the least bit surprising that upon witnessing a group of KYTube 'influencers' practically trip over themselves to see who can heap praise on the game the thickest, that:
"What? Who? Oh please; Fuck off now..." are the leading responses.
This place just ain't their crowd.
So they get the royal piss taken out of them for the ridiculous fawning praise from their KYTube buddies.
So What.
Seeing as the ShadowDark KS just clicked over $1Mil; I guarantee they'll somehow find a way to get over it....
They're not hurting. Like I said earlier: I can only dream that if I ever release an RPG, that its launch generates a 26+ page discussion thread of free advertising...
*I'm taking notes. That shit's straight over-the-top. Fucking Brilliant!
Just because you didn't see it coming doesn't mean it came out of nowhere. Things can actually exist independently of one's awareness of them.
I know, I know. Crazy talk, right?
Quote from: Jaeger on March 23, 2023, 01:40:57 AM
My jump the shark gif was definitely over target...
Quote from: SHARK on March 22, 2023, 11:19:15 PM
Forbes having an article about the game doesn't surprise me, really. I don't understand the gnashing hate people seem to have though. Geesus.
...
These are normal relationships and interactions for people.
...
Got it wrong homie.
Nobody cares that she has friends.
And it's definitely not hate. It's just an elfgame...
It's the sheer W.T.F.!? Novelty of seeing a borderline Wotzi/Baizuo level product launch of an indie Game marketed to the OSR crowd.
For me. Literally this:
(https://media.tenor.com/yfJlSRz68MYAAAAM/michael-jackson-michael.gif)
I can't hate the hustle. These chicks brought their marketing 'A' game for sure!
But come on man - an article in *Forbes online!?
At this point, that shits just hilarious!
When you engage in marketing like this:
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 22, 2023, 10:42:41 PM
...
The marketing profession today leans far more heavily into promotional marketing. What major corporation wants a slow, steady increase in consumer base? Virtually none. They'd all rather have the massive glut of sales from a fad, even if it's not sustainable. So, the promotion of Shadowdark starts to make sense, especially when you find out the creator's partner has marketing experience. From almost out of nowhere, all of the Youtube channels I watch about RPG products are gushing about this new game that will revolutionize RPGs! We just have to play it! There's a preview PDF, but every marketer worth their salt knows that consumers are generally low-effort. Consumers pay far more attention to what they hear via ads, as opposed to information they have to work to find. Very little of the promotion has been about the game and its mechanics, about specifics. This triggers alarms in just about anyone who has been burned by promotional marketing.
...
And it hits a group of straight-up Jaded OSR motherfuckers like the kind that inhabit this board...
It shouldn't be the least bit surprising that upon witnessing a group of KYTube 'influencers' practically trip over themselves to see who can heap praise on the game the thickest, that: "What? Who? Oh please; Fuck off now..." are the leading responses.
This place just ain't their crowd.
So they get the royal piss taken out of them for the ridiculous fawning praise from their KYTube buddies.
So What.
Seeing as the ShadowDark KS just clicked over $1Mil; I guarantee they'll somehow find a way to get over it....
They're not hurting. Like I said earlier: I can only dream that if I ever release an RPG, that its launch generates a 26+ page discussion thread of free advertising...
*I'm taking notes. That shit's straight over-the-top. Fucking Brilliant!
Greetings!
*KYTube*!!!!! *Laughing* Oh, damn, my friend! That had me roaring with laughter!
Chomp! Chomp! "Jaded OSR motherfuckers!" *Laughing*
I love the girl's *Hustle*! I also like boldness, and, yeah. I'm also thrilled that she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style. Not to be overtly vulgar--and I'm definitely not simping for her--but her timing, her presentation, of *Boom*--it' a very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC. So, I am a fan. I hope she does very well, and becomes *Hugely* successful and *rich*. I think it is great for everyone to get up like tigers and bite back at WOTC's BS.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 23, 2023, 02:27:42 AM
I love the girl's *Hustle*! I also like boldness, and, yeah. I'm also thrilled that she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style. Not to be overtly vulgar--and I'm definitely not simping for her--but her timing, her presentation, of *Boom*--it' a very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC. So, I am a fan. I hope she does very well, and becomes *Hugely* successful and *rich*. I think it is great for everyone to get up like tigers and bite back at WOTC's BS.
Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. Don't even care if the thing taking the bite is good or not, woke or not, or almost any other criteria you could name. And I don't just mean market share, even long term, either. Anything that takes attention away from their D&D The Animal Farm Brought to Life edition is great.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 23, 2023, 07:44:18 AM
Quote from: SHARK on March 23, 2023, 02:27:42 AM
I love the girl's *Hustle*! I also like boldness, and, yeah. I'm also thrilled that she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style. Not to be overtly vulgar--and I'm definitely not simping for her--but her timing, her presentation, of *Boom*--it' a very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC. So, I am a fan. I hope she does very well, and becomes *Hugely* successful and *rich*. I think it is great for everyone to get up like tigers and bite back at WOTC's BS.
Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. Don't even care if the thing taking the bite is good or not, woke or not, or almost any other criteria you could name. And I don't just mean market share, even long term, either. Anything that takes attention away from their D&D The Animal Farm Brought to Life edition is great.
IF she's using the OGL or the 5.1 CC By SRD she's doing the exact opposite of that.
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Hmm...
Methinks there is some big money backing Shadowdark, and it ain't coming from gamers like you and me.
I think I'll wait and see how this plays out. I am curious to know who the big investors are.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 23, 2023, 12:54:09 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Hmm...
Methinks there is some big money backing Shadowdark, and it ain't coming from gamers like you and me.
I think I'll wait and see how this plays out. I am curious to know who the big investors are.
Why? Because an RPG author creating and executing a proper business plan with competence is just beyond comprehension?
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 01:24:24 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 23, 2023, 12:54:09 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Hmm...
Methinks there is some big money backing Shadowdark, and it ain't coming from gamers like you and me.
I think I'll wait and see how this plays out. I am curious to know who the big investors are.
Why? Because an RPG author creating and executing a proper business plan with competence is just beyond comprehension?
If the legacy media is pushing this product, then there is more to it than some small-time game designer just "executing a proper business plan".
You do what you want with your money. I will wait and see what's up.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 23, 2023, 01:47:45 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 01:24:24 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 23, 2023, 12:54:09 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Hmm...
Methinks there is some big money backing Shadowdark, and it ain't coming from gamers like you and me.
I think I'll wait and see how this plays out. I am curious to know who the big investors are.
Why? Because an RPG author creating and executing a proper business plan with competence is just beyond comprehension?
If the legacy media is pushing this product, then there is more to it than some small-time game designer just "executing a proper business plan".
You do what you want with your money. I will wait and see what's up.
I haven't backed it. I don't like close-near-far abstract movement systems. On the fence when it comes to randomly determining level abilities. I did download the beta release months ago and ran a one-shot. Found the real time torch gimmick to not make much difference in practice. Sounds cooler than it is. IMO this is a B+ game with A+ layout, editing, clarity, production values, and marketing. And it's been years in the making.
Getting written up in Forbes Daily doesn't take money. All it takes is for a freelancer Forbes works with to decide this is something he wants to write about. And since the Shadowdark author was a newspaper journalist before becoming a game designer, she certainly knows plenty of folks like that. The person who wrote this is a "contributor" which means they are not a Forbes employee, but a freelancer. To get paid at all they have to write a minimum number of articles per month, and then it's pennies per word. This is how Forbes and similar sites can publish dozens of articles per day and never run out of content. Getting a Forbes Daily article just isn't impressive.
The only mystery here is how so many folks simply must believe there's a mystery to Shadowdark's success. It's talent, hard work, smart planning, and good/lucky timing coming together, like most success stories.
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 23, 2023, 01:47:45 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 01:24:24 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 23, 2023, 12:54:09 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Hmm...
Methinks there is some big money backing Shadowdark, and it ain't coming from gamers like you and me.
I think I'll wait and see how this plays out. I am curious to know who the big investors are.
Why? Because an RPG author creating and executing a proper business plan with competence is just beyond comprehension?
If the legacy media is pushing this product, then there is more to it than some small-time game designer just "executing a proper business plan".
You do what you want with your money. I will wait and see what's up.
I haven't backed it. I don't like close-near-far abstract movement systems. On the fence when it comes to randomly determining level abilities. I did download the beta release months ago and ran a one-shot. Found the real time torch gimmick to not make much difference in practice. Sounds cooler than it is. IMO this is a B+ game with A+ layout, editing, clarity, production values, and marketing. And it's been years in the making.
Getting written up in Forbes Daily doesn't take money. All it takes is for a freelancer Forbes works with to decide this is something he wants to write about. And since the Shadowdark author was a newspaper journalist before becoming a game designer, she certainly knows plenty of folks like that. The person who wrote this is a "contributor" which means they are not a Forbes employee, but a freelancer. To get paid at all they have to write a minimum number of articles per month, and then it's pennies per word. This is how Forbes and similar sites can publish dozens of articles per day and never run out of content. Getting a Forbes Daily article just isn't impressive.
The only mystery here is how so many folks simply must believe there's a mystery to Shadowdark's success. It's talent, hard work, smart planning, and good/lucky timing coming together, like most success stories.
Here's the list of the latest Forbes Daily articles by this contributor:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/?sh=396c9852c00b
Traveler, Pathfinder Nexus, Healing Dice, some heist game called "The Score", Cypher system, Golden Vault, cyberpunk kickstarters... This is what he does. All you have to do is contact him and convince him to write about your game.
This ^^^, and not some new innovative design idea, is what separates the Shadowdark author from most would be RPG creators and players. She actually knows how the business and marketing side of being a publisher works.
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 23, 2023, 01:47:45 PM
If the legacy media is pushing this product, then there is more to it than some small-time game designer just "executing a proper business plan".
Obviously the "Forbes endorses Shadowdark" is tongue in cheek. There is a Forbes contributor who has a regular column on new RPGs. If I look at that author's articles here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/
Over the past few weeks, Forbes has "endorsed":
- Traveller High Guard Update 2022, Robot Handbook and Sector Construction Guide
- The Score storytelling game Kickstarter
- Cyberpunk Shadowrun 6E, Subversion, and Sinless
- Cypher System adventures
- Battlelords of the 23rd Century
EDITED TO ADD: cross-posted with Festus
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 02:04:38 PM
Getting written up in Forbes Daily doesn't take money. All it takes is for a freelancer Forbes works with to decide this is something he wants to write about. And since the Shadowdark author was a newspaper journalist before becoming a game designer, she certainly knows plenty of folks like that. The person who wrote this is a "contributor" which means they are not a Forbes employee, but a freelancer. To get paid at all they have to write a minimum number of articles per month, and then it's pennies per word. This is how Forbes and similar sites can publish dozens of articles per day and never run out of content. Getting a Forbes Daily article just isn't impressive.
Yeah, I knew that. As John Kim guessed, I just thought it was funny. ;D
I know a contributer for Forbres, it is as others have said: Write an article , get paid per word, more hits you get a bigger return. It makes sense to find what people are talking about in order to drive traffic so you get a cut of the ad revenue.
The sheer amount of conspiracy theory regarding the Million Dollar $uccess of Shadowdark is beyond hilarious.
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 02:12:07 AM
Just because you didn't see it coming doesn't mean it came out of nowhere. Things can actually exist independently of one's awareness of them.
I know, I know. Crazy talk, right?
No, just stupid. The textbook definition of "didn't see it coming" and "from out of nowhere" is "I wasn't aware of it previously." So you're basically arguing that the phrase doesn't mean what it clearly means.
The level of cultish support for this game (one that apparently isn't good enough for some of you to buy immediately) is approaching Star Citizen levels. And that's not a red flag or anything...
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 23, 2023, 01:47:45 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 01:24:24 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 23, 2023, 12:54:09 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Hmm...
Methinks there is some big money backing Shadowdark, and it ain't coming from gamers like you and me.
I think I'll wait and see how this plays out. I am curious to know who the big investors are.
Why? Because an RPG author creating and executing a proper business plan with competence is just beyond comprehension?
If the legacy media is pushing this product, then there is more to it than some small-time game designer just "executing a proper business plan".
You do what you want with your money. I will wait and see what's up.
I haven't backed it. I don't like close-near-far abstract movement systems. On the fence when it comes to randomly determining level abilities. I did download the beta release months ago and ran a one-shot. Found the real time torch gimmick to not make much difference in practice. Sounds cooler than it is. IMO this is a B+ game with A+ layout, editing, clarity, production values, and marketing. And it's been years in the making.
This is my feelings on it too. Im also not too fond of the art ive seen.
Notn related to the above quote, but i honestly dont think its gonna take that many people away from WoTC. Perhaps temporarily. I don't really think ANY game has much of a chance of making a dent because WoTC fans tend to be all about the "D&D community" over thr D&D rules and i anticipate they'll stick with it regardless.
Quote from: S'mon on March 23, 2023, 03:40:39 PM
Yeah, I knew that. As John Kim guessed, I just thought it was funny. ;D
Not just funny:
Fucking. Hilarious. 8)
But I'm taking notes! Kelsey Dionne has shown the True Path.
If I ever release an RPG; I'm gonna line up these KYTube shills like dominoes, and have them fluff their audiences so hard the KickStarter backers will experience minor joygasams just reading the title of my game out loud.
A Forbes write-up will be just the beginning. IGN, ICV2, ENWorld, hell; I'm gonna get my shit in
Popular Science.
The codename for my marketing campaign will be:
Operation Fappening.
I'll make them think that my game is so awesome, that after playing just one session players will want to run home and kick their mommas right in the face.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2023, 12:21:48 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 23, 2023, 07:44:18 AM
Quote from: SHARK on March 23, 2023, 02:27:42 AM
I love the girl's *Hustle*! I also like boldness, and, yeah. I'm also thrilled that she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style. Not to be overtly vulgar--and I'm definitely not simping for her--but her timing, her presentation, of *Boom*--it' a very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC. So, I am a fan. I hope she does very well, and becomes *Hugely* successful and *rich*. I think it is great for everyone to get up like tigers and bite back at WOTC's BS.
Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. Don't even care if the thing taking the bite is good or not, woke or not, or almost any other criteria you could name. And I don't just mean market share, even long term, either. Anything that takes attention away from their D&D The Animal Farm Brought to Life edition is great.
IF she's using the OGL or the 5.1 CC By SRD she's doing the exact opposite of that.
She isn't. She released a video well before the KS dropped talking about the fortunate timing of an OGL-less approach.
Quote from: Slambo on March 23, 2023, 06:45:39 PM
This is my feelings on it too. Im also not too fond of the art ive seen.
I'm not either. But it is consistent and thematically appropriate. It's not unheard of, but it's unusual enough to be noteworthy.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 23, 2023, 08:14:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2023, 12:21:48 PM
IF she's using the OGL or the 5.1 CC By SRD she's doing the exact opposite of that.
She isn't. She released a video well before the KS dropped talking about the fortunate timing of an OGL-less approach.
The point he's doing is if she's using the D&D SRD as a base, she's strengthening the D&D ecosystem, thus strengthening D&D. I'm not sure how true that is, when 4e was out and Pathfinder was king it doesn't seem to have been the case, but the other perspective is it kept players 'close to home' and ready to move back to D&D when the next edition came out. So it's possible that Shadowdark catches interest for a year or two until D&D 6e is released, and players start moving back. It's still familiar, and the novelty provided by Shadowdark has worn off.
We'll see what happens ultimately, but there is a point that if you want to take a real chunk out of D&D, you need to move clearly out of the D&D base.
I'm not sure what is hilarious about a good marketing campaign.
The game doesn't offer anything that would benefit my players. So I'm not a backer. But effectively advertising and good business skills should be commended, not vilified.
These are indisputable facts:
1. This thread has focused more on the creator's sexuality than the creator has.
2. Any issue with reviewers should stay with the reviewers. If I can convince Scarlet Johansson to shave the name of my game into her pubes, good on me. If Professor DM doesn't divulge his relationship with the creator that is on him, not her.
3. Any challenge to this gets labeled as white knighting, which automatically means the person who is making that claim has lost. Again, I'm not a backer. I will not give her my money. But masks ARE falling throughout this thread.
4. Migo is a clown. I have never once told people how to spend their money. I am a member of the dreaded 1%.. I gave $1000 to Jim buying products I will never use just because he was being canceled. I've done the same with others. I would never tell somebody how to spend their money. But he will shift his anti-crusade against this game to anything he can.
5. DM Grognard is an actual bigot. Bringing her wife into this and the lame tentacle joke is retarded. And has nothing to do with the game. The bed-wetting woke will justify their delusions because of backward ass shits like him.
6. SHARK has a clear view into this. His posts have been outstanding.
Quote from: migo on March 23, 2023, 08:18:35 PM
The point he's doing is if she's using the D&D SRD as a base, she's strengthening the D&D ecosystem, thus strengthening D&D. I'm not sure how true that is, when 4e was out and Pathfinder was king it doesn't seem to have been the case, but the other perspective is it kept players 'close to home' and ready to move back to D&D when the next edition came out. So it's possible that Shadowdark catches interest for a year or two until D&D 6e is released, and players start moving back. It's still familiar, and the novelty provided by Shadowdark has worn off.
We'll see what happens ultimately, but there is a point that if you want to take a real chunk out of D&D, you need to move clearly out of the D&D base.
That's true. However, my slant was that before anyone can take a chunk out of the D&D base, you need D&D to fracture across multiple titles. It's not really possible to take a meaningful chunk out of an 800 lb gorilla. However, if it's a 600 lb gorilla, its pair of 50 lb junior members, and then a few more 5 to 10 lb related apes--it gets easier. Not simple, not easy, but easier.
It's very difficult to get most people to try their second game. Even switching editions can be hard with some. However, once you get someone to try something slightly different--anything different, it's much easier to to get them to try a third or fourth thing. Usually. Some people, of course, hate the second thing they try, and good luck getting them to try again.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 23, 2023, 08:14:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2023, 12:21:48 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 23, 2023, 07:44:18 AM
Quote from: SHARK on March 23, 2023, 02:27:42 AM
I love the girl's *Hustle*! I also like boldness, and, yeah. I'm also thrilled that she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style. Not to be overtly vulgar--and I'm definitely not simping for her--but her timing, her presentation, of *Boom*--it' a very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC. So, I am a fan. I hope she does very well, and becomes *Hugely* successful and *rich*. I think it is great for everyone to get up like tigers and bite back at WOTC's BS.
Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. Don't even care if the thing taking the bite is good or not, woke or not, or almost any other criteria you could name. And I don't just mean market share, even long term, either. Anything that takes attention away from their D&D The Animal Farm Brought to Life edition is great.
IF she's using the OGL or the 5.1 CC By SRD she's doing the exact opposite of that.
She isn't. She released a video well before the KS dropped talking about the fortunate timing of an OGL-less approach.
Then why does the latest quickstart (downloaded again yesterday) state:
Legal Information and Attribution Statement
Not for resale or redistribution. Permission granted to print
or copy for personal use only. Shadowdark RPG © The Arcane
Library, LLC. This work includes material taken from the System
Reference Document 5.1 ("SRD 5.1") by Wizards of the Coast LLC
and available at https://dnd.wizards.com/resources/systemsreference-
document. The SRD 5.1 is licensed under the Creative
Commons Attribution 4.0 International License available at
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/legalcode.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 23, 2023, 08:53:05 PM
I'm not sure what is hilarious about a good marketing campaign.
The game doesn't offer anything that would benefit my players. So I'm not a backer. But effectively advertising and good business skills should be commended, not vilified.
These are indisputable facts:
1. This thread has focused more on the creator's sexuality than the creator has.
2. Any issue with reviewers should stay with the reviewers. If I can convince Scarlet Johansson to shave the name of my game into her pubes, good on me. If Professor DM doesn't divulge his relationship with the creator that is on him, not her.
3. Any challenge to this gets labeled as white knighting, which automatically means the person who is making that claim has lost. Again, I'm not a backer. I will not give her my money. But masks ARE falling throughout this thread.
4. Migo is a clown. I have never once told people how to spend their money. I am a member of the dreaded 1%.. I gave $1000 to Jim buying products I will never use just because he was being canceled. I've done the same with others. I would never tell somebody how to spend their money. But he will shift his anti-crusade against this game to anything he can.
5. DM Grognard is an actual bigot. Bringing her wife into this and the lame tentacle joke is retarded. And has nothing to do with the game. The bed-wetting woke will justify their delusions because of backward ass shits like him.
6. SHARK has a clear view into this. His posts have been outstanding.
Greetings!
Thank you, FingerRod! I am glad some people appreciate my observations! *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 23, 2023, 09:58:48 PM
Then why does the latest quickstart (downloaded again yesterday) state:
Legal Information and Attribution Statement
Not for resale or redistribution. Permission granted to print
or copy for personal use only. Shadowdark RPG © The Arcane
Library, LLC. This work includes material taken from the System
Reference Document 5.1 ("SRD 5.1") by Wizards of the Coast LLC
and available at https://dnd.wizards.com/resources/systemsreference-
document. The SRD 5.1 is licensed under the Creative
Commons Attribution 4.0 International License available at
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/legalcode.
I believe the sequence of events was roughly:
1. She wrote it using OGL, and had already announced the KS launch date.
2. Then WotC made noises about revoking OGL and she consulted with lawyers and started scrubbing the doc of any WotC IP that might be a problem. For example there was a version where stirges became "stingbats"
3. Then WotC caved and put the 5.1 SRD into CC.
4. To avoid the KS launch date slipping she included the CC attribution and carried on with the ready-for-the-printers manuscript.
I might have misstated or omitted some details, but that's the gist.
She's never made any bones about this being an offshoot of D&D. She has published a bunch of 5e adventures and has expressed a fondness for the system. If the purity test is being adequately anti-5e or anti-WotC to please everyone here, she'll fail that for sure.
I think that's a flat out stupid purity test. Fact is that if every single one of her ~10k backers *and* all their friends never bought a WotC product ever again, WotC likely wouldn't even notice.
Whatever
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 10:38:54 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 23, 2023, 09:58:48 PM
Then why does the latest quickstart (downloaded again yesterday) state:
Legal Information and Attribution Statement
Not for resale or redistribution. Permission granted to print
or copy for personal use only. Shadowdark RPG © The Arcane
Library, LLC. This work includes material taken from the System
Reference Document 5.1 ("SRD 5.1") by Wizards of the Coast LLC
and available at https://dnd.wizards.com/resources/systemsreference-
document. The SRD 5.1 is licensed under the Creative
Commons Attribution 4.0 International License available at
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/legalcode.
I believe the sequence of events was roughly:
1. She wrote it using OGL, and had already announced the KS launch date.
2. Then WotC made noises about revoking OGL and she consulted with lawyers and started scrubbing the doc of any WotC IP that might be a problem. For example there was a version where stirges became "stingbats"
3. Then WotC caved and put the 5.1 SRD into CC.
4. To avoid the KS launch date slipping she included the CC attribution and carried on with the ready-for-the-printers manuscript.
I might have misstated or omitted some details, but that's the gist.
She's never made any bones about this being an offshoot of D&D. She has published a bunch of 5e adventures and has expressed a fondness for the system. If the purity test is being adequately anti-5e or anti-WotC to please everyone here, she'll fail that for sure.
I think that's a flat out stupid purity test. Fact is that if every single one of her ~10k backers *and* all their friends never bought a WotC product ever again, WotC likely wouldn't even notice.
Whatever
Care to point to where ANYONE says it has to be anti-5e or anti-WotC or anti-ANYTHING?
Pointing out that using either the OGL or the CC By contributes to D&D's network effect isn't putting ANY requirement on her or her game, it's just pointing a fact that negates the game having a negative effect on D&D, something that has been stated (by people here, who I'm answering to) the game will do.
After that you can resume calling everyone a bigot.
Greetings!
The idea isn't complex, people. Generally, the more people playing Shadowdark, the less people wallowing in WOTC and 6E sewage. In my book, that's a *win* and it makes me happy.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2023, 11:12:23 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 10:38:54 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 23, 2023, 09:58:48 PM
Then why does the latest quickstart (downloaded again yesterday) state:
Legal Information and Attribution Statement
Not for resale or redistribution. Permission granted to print
or copy for personal use only. Shadowdark RPG © The Arcane
Library, LLC. This work includes material taken from the System
Reference Document 5.1 ("SRD 5.1") by Wizards of the Coast LLC
and available at https://dnd.wizards.com/resources/systemsreference-
document. The SRD 5.1 is licensed under the Creative
Commons Attribution 4.0 International License available at
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/legalcode.
I believe the sequence of events was roughly:
1. She wrote it using OGL, and had already announced the KS launch date.
2. Then WotC made noises about revoking OGL and she consulted with lawyers and started scrubbing the doc of any WotC IP that might be a problem. For example there was a version where stirges became "stingbats"
3. Then WotC caved and put the 5.1 SRD into CC.
4. To avoid the KS launch date slipping she included the CC attribution and carried on with the ready-for-the-printers manuscript.
I might have misstated or omitted some details, but that's the gist.
She's never made any bones about this being an offshoot of D&D. She has published a bunch of 5e adventures and has expressed a fondness for the system. If the purity test is being adequately anti-5e or anti-WotC to please everyone here, she'll fail that for sure.
I think that's a flat out stupid purity test. Fact is that if every single one of her ~10k backers *and* all their friends never bought a WotC product ever again, WotC likely wouldn't even notice.
Whatever
Care to point to where ANYONE says it has to be anti-5e or anti-WotC or anti-ANYTHING?
Pointing out that using either the OGL or the CC By contributes to D&D's network effect isn't putting ANY requirement on her or her game, it's just pointing a fact that negates the game having a negative effect on D&D, something that has been stated (by people here, who I'm answering to) the game will do.
After that you can resume calling everyone a bigot.
*Laughing* Wow.
First, I wouldn't use "bigot" in relation to a bias for or against a game system or company. I reserve that word for more serious and impactful biases.
Second, this forum and thread are chock full of all sorts of anti-this and anti-that, especially anti-WotC, which I'm actually cool with. WotC sucks.
Third, SHARK praised the author saying "she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style" and called it a 'very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC"
Fourth, Steven Mitchell said "Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. "
THEN you chimed in that if the game used the OGL or CC it did anything but that.
So yeah, the context of the thread was *absolutely* about the author specifically being anti-WotC, taking notice, stomping on them, "fuck you", WotC's BS, WotC being smug assholes, and so on. But hey, sorry to have ruffled your feathers! Bless your heart.
*More laughing*
Quote from: FingerRod on March 23, 2023, 08:53:05 PM
4. Migo is a clown. I have never once told people how to spend their money. I am a member of the dreaded 1%.. I gave $1000 to Jim buying products I will never use just because he was being canceled. I've done the same with others. I would never tell somebody how to spend their money. But he will shift his anti-crusade against this game to anything he can.
For someone who professes not to claim about whether someone buys the game or not, you sure do care a great deal about people's reasons for not buying the game.
Quote from: SHARK on March 23, 2023, 11:46:28 PM
Greetings!
The idea isn't complex, people. Generally, the more people playing Shadowdark, the less people wallowing in WOTC and 6E sewage. In my book, that's a *win* and it makes me happy.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Exactly this! Shadowdark can only benefit the hobby as a whole and, perhaps, send some like-minded players over to the weird games that I like. And that's the worst case scenario. Best case is that the game succeeds and now we have more opportunities to play something other than D&D (TM).
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. If it turns out to be some secret new world order woke plot funded by George Soros, well shucks you fooled me. No shame in that.
Quote from: Festus on March 24, 2023, 12:05:07 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2023, 11:12:23 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 10:38:54 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 23, 2023, 09:58:48 PM
Then why does the latest quickstart (downloaded again yesterday) state:
Legal Information and Attribution Statement
Not for resale or redistribution. Permission granted to print
or copy for personal use only. Shadowdark RPG © The Arcane
Library, LLC. This work includes material taken from the System
Reference Document 5.1 ("SRD 5.1") by Wizards of the Coast LLC
and available at https://dnd.wizards.com/resources/systemsreference-
document. The SRD 5.1 is licensed under the Creative
Commons Attribution 4.0 International License available at
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/legalcode.
I believe the sequence of events was roughly:
1. She wrote it using OGL, and had already announced the KS launch date.
2. Then WotC made noises about revoking OGL and she consulted with lawyers and started scrubbing the doc of any WotC IP that might be a problem. For example there was a version where stirges became "stingbats"
3. Then WotC caved and put the 5.1 SRD into CC.
4. To avoid the KS launch date slipping she included the CC attribution and carried on with the ready-for-the-printers manuscript.
I might have misstated or omitted some details, but that's the gist.
She's never made any bones about this being an offshoot of D&D. She has published a bunch of 5e adventures and has expressed a fondness for the system. If the purity test is being adequately anti-5e or anti-WotC to please everyone here, she'll fail that for sure.
I think that's a flat out stupid purity test. Fact is that if every single one of her ~10k backers *and* all their friends never bought a WotC product ever again, WotC likely wouldn't even notice.
Whatever
Care to point to where ANYONE says it has to be anti-5e or anti-WotC or anti-ANYTHING?
Pointing out that using either the OGL or the CC By contributes to D&D's network effect isn't putting ANY requirement on her or her game, it's just pointing a fact that negates the game having a negative effect on D&D, something that has been stated (by people here, who I'm answering to) the game will do.
After that you can resume calling everyone a bigot.
*Laughing* Wow.
First, I wouldn't use "bigot" in relation to a bias for or against a game system or company. I reserve that word for more serious and impactful biases.
Second, this forum and thread are chock full of all sorts of anti-this and anti-that, especially anti-WotC, which I'm actually cool with. WotC sucks.
Third, SHARK praised the author saying "she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style" and called it a 'very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC"
Fourth, Steven Mitchell said "Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. "
THEN you chimed in that if the game used the OGL or CC it did anything but that.
So yeah, the context of the thread was *absolutely* about the author specifically being anti-WotC, taking notice, stomping on them, "fuck you", WotC's BS, WotC being smug assholes, and so on. But hey, sorry to have ruffled your feathers! Bless your heart.
*More laughing*
NOWHERE in your wall of text have you provided proof that ANYONE established a "purity test" (your own words) that the game or the developer have to be anti-ANYTHING.
Now, you can either provide it or admit you were wrong.
As for calling people a bigot, my bad, I mixed you with fingerrod.
Quote from: SHARK on March 23, 2023, 11:46:28 PM
Greetings!
The idea isn't complex, people. Generally, the more people playing Shadowdark, the less people wallowing in WOTC and 6E sewage. In my book, that's a *win* and it makes me happy.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I agree that the less people slurping WotC's grey goo the better. I disagree that a game (any game, this includes all the OSR ones that use it) that uses the OGL or the CC By isn't helping WotC's network effect, the name of their game is right there.
But that's a different discussion, this thread was about the reviewers and the apparently sudden explosion of support for a game that many didn't see coming before the flood of marketing. In that regard I do smell something fishy on some cases.
Is that the developer's fault? I think not, she's playing the game and winning with the rules others wrote, so more power to her. I for one am grateful because she has shown a way to do things I hadn't thought off.
Is her game "innovative" only in the sense that she took a lot of mechanics from other games and combined them, you might not like some or all the mechanics she choose, but she was the first to combine them.
The distance thing = The Black Hack
Random rolling the improvement = The Black Hack
Torches equal to IRL time = The BrOSR, Gygax
Advantage = 5e
Magic mechanics = DCC
The fact that the reviewers don't mention this speaks lots about them, either they're shills or they don't know what they're talking about, in the case of some of them I think they KNOW what they are talking about ergo they're shilling the game. But that's like my opinion man.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 23, 2023, 08:53:05 PM
I'm not sure what is hilarious about a good marketing campaign.
...
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/4d/03/ce4d03d313cf5f9ea15cf28006d99802.jpg)
In my defense, I can only say that when I sit down and contemplate the best way to maximize the visibility of a new RPG release; Only one venue is foremost in my mind:
FORBES.
As I have once again done my part to boost the 28+ page, and growing free-advertising thread for the ShadowDark RPG.
I will resume my normal holding pattern:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PowerfulLegitimateBichonfrise-max-1mb.gif)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2023, 12:52:51 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 24, 2023, 12:05:07 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2023, 11:12:23 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 10:38:54 PM
I believe the sequence of events was roughly:
1. She wrote it using OGL, and had already announced the KS launch date.
2. Then WotC made noises about revoking OGL and she consulted with lawyers and started scrubbing the doc of any WotC IP that might be a problem. For example there was a version where stirges became "stingbats"
3. Then WotC caved and put the 5.1 SRD into CC.
4. To avoid the KS launch date slipping she included the CC attribution and carried on with the ready-for-the-printers manuscript.
I might have misstated or omitted some details, but that's the gist.
She's never made any bones about this being an offshoot of D&D. She has published a bunch of 5e adventures and has expressed a fondness for the system. If the purity test is being adequately anti-5e or anti-WotC to please everyone here, she'll fail that for sure.
I think that's a flat out stupid purity test. Fact is that if every single one of her ~10k backers *and* all their friends never bought a WotC product ever again, WotC likely wouldn't even notice.
Whatever
Care to point to where ANYONE says it has to be anti-5e or anti-WotC or anti-ANYTHING?
Pointing out that using either the OGL or the CC By contributes to D&D's network effect isn't putting ANY requirement on her or her game, it's just pointing a fact that negates the game having a negative effect on D&D, something that has been stated (by people here, who I'm answering to) the game will do.
After that you can resume calling everyone a bigot.
*Laughing* Wow.
First, I wouldn't use "bigot" in relation to a bias for or against a game system or company. I reserve that word for more serious and impactful biases.
Second, this forum and thread are chock full of all sorts of anti-this and anti-that, especially anti-WotC, which I'm actually cool with. WotC sucks.
Third, SHARK praised the author saying "she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style" and called it a 'very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC"
Fourth, Steven Mitchell said "Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. "
THEN you chimed in that if the game used the OGL or CC it did anything but that.
So yeah, the context of the thread was *absolutely* about the author specifically being anti-WotC, taking notice, stomping on them, "fuck you", WotC's BS, WotC being smug assholes, and so on. But hey, sorry to have ruffled your feathers! Bless your heart.
*More laughing*
NOWHERE in your wall of text have you provided proof that ANYONE established a "purity test" (your own words) that the game or the developer have to be anti-ANYTHING.
Now, you can either provide it or admit you were wrong.
As for calling people a bigot, my bad, I mixed you with fingerrod.
I stated that *if* the purity test is being anti-WotC, she'd fail. And that I think such a test is dumb. I stand by that. If you think I'm wrong about that, that's ok. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me.
I did not accuse any specific person of promulgating such a test, though based on my short time here it strikes me as likely that some folks here feel that way. I've certainly known folks elsewhere who feel that way.
I know SHARK does *not* feel that way. He's happy to see WotC take a hit, but he's also praised Kelsey Dionne for her business acumen. If you're defending him, no need. I did not intend to imply he was using such a test. He quite evidently is not.
SHARK, my apologies sir! Like FingerRod, I have a high regard for your posts on this topic. If I've treated you unfairly, I am sorry.
My words clearly struck a nerve with you, Geeky, but I don't know you well enough to speculate as to why. And without knowing why, I honestly don't know if I'm sorry or not. And at this point I am beyond caring. So if this isn't enough, you'll just have to cope somehow.
Cheers!
Quote from: Jaeger on March 24, 2023, 01:15:58 PM
As I have once again done my part to boost the 28+ page, and growing free-advertising thread for the ShadowDark RPG.
I will resume my normal holding pattern:
(https://i.imgflip.com/g3ib1.jpg)
Quote from: Jaeger on March 24, 2023, 01:15:58 PM
FORBES.
Okay, fair enough. I have Forbes blocked from my news feed, probably for similar reasons.
Quote from: Festus on March 24, 2023, 01:37:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2023, 12:52:51 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 24, 2023, 12:05:07 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2023, 11:12:23 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 10:38:54 PM
I believe the sequence of events was roughly:
1. She wrote it using OGL, and had already announced the KS launch date.
2. Then WotC made noises about revoking OGL and she consulted with lawyers and started scrubbing the doc of any WotC IP that might be a problem. For example there was a version where stirges became "stingbats"
3. Then WotC caved and put the 5.1 SRD into CC.
4. To avoid the KS launch date slipping she included the CC attribution and carried on with the ready-for-the-printers manuscript.
I might have misstated or omitted some details, but that's the gist.
She's never made any bones about this being an offshoot of D&D. She has published a bunch of 5e adventures and has expressed a fondness for the system. If the purity test is being adequately anti-5e or anti-WotC to please everyone here, she'll fail that for sure.
I think that's a flat out stupid purity test. Fact is that if every single one of her ~10k backers *and* all their friends never bought a WotC product ever again, WotC likely wouldn't even notice.
Whatever
Care to point to where ANYONE says it has to be anti-5e or anti-WotC or anti-ANYTHING?
Pointing out that using either the OGL or the CC By contributes to D&D's network effect isn't putting ANY requirement on her or her game, it's just pointing a fact that negates the game having a negative effect on D&D, something that has been stated (by people here, who I'm answering to) the game will do.
After that you can resume calling everyone a bigot.
*Laughing* Wow.
First, I wouldn't use "bigot" in relation to a bias for or against a game system or company. I reserve that word for more serious and impactful biases.
Second, this forum and thread are chock full of all sorts of anti-this and anti-that, especially anti-WotC, which I'm actually cool with. WotC sucks.
Third, SHARK praised the author saying "she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style" and called it a 'very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC"
Fourth, Steven Mitchell said "Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. "
THEN you chimed in that if the game used the OGL or CC it did anything but that.
So yeah, the context of the thread was *absolutely* about the author specifically being anti-WotC, taking notice, stomping on them, "fuck you", WotC's BS, WotC being smug assholes, and so on. But hey, sorry to have ruffled your feathers! Bless your heart.
*More laughing*
NOWHERE in your wall of text have you provided proof that ANYONE established a "purity test" (your own words) that the game or the developer have to be anti-ANYTHING.
Now, you can either provide it or admit you were wrong.
As for calling people a bigot, my bad, I mixed you with fingerrod.
I stated that *if* the purity test is being anti-WotC, she'd fail. And that I think such a test is dumb. I stand by that. If you think I'm wrong about that, that's ok. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me.
I did not accuse any specific person of promulgating such a test, though based on my short time here it strikes me as likely that some folks here feel that way. I've certainly known folks elsewhere who feel that way.
I know SHARK does *not* feel that way. He's happy to see WotC take a hit, but he's also praised Kelsey Dionne for her business acumen. If you're defending him, no need. I did not intend to imply he was using such a test. He quite evidently is not.
SHARK, my apologies sir! Like FingerRod, I have a high regard for your posts on this topic. If I've treated you unfairly, I am sorry.
My words clearly struck a nerve with you, Geeky, but I don't know you well enough to speculate as to why. And without knowing why, I honestly don't know if I'm sorry or not. And at this point I am beyond caring. So if this isn't enough, you'll just have to cope somehow.
Cheers!
Greetings!
Thank you, Festus. I'm glad you enjoy my commentary. And, you are fine, my friend. You have not offended me in any way, so we are good.
I also believe you are right though. Even if a particular dynamic is not being explicitly stated--like "Purity Tests"--it can still feel that way, as inferred by people's actions, or words, or tone, for example. This issue right here, also for example, is not the first time that various people here have brought up the issue or feel that is sometimes pushed here in various discussions that do seem to promote a kind of "Purity Testing" or "Purity Spiral". We all know that Libtards embrace such--but even others can get caught up in doing the same kind of attitude or dynamic.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 24, 2023, 11:40:30 AM
Quote from: SHARK on March 23, 2023, 11:46:28 PM
Greetings!
The idea isn't complex, people. Generally, the more people playing Shadowdark, the less people wallowing in WOTC and 6E sewage. In my book, that's a *win* and it makes me happy.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Exactly this! Shadowdark can only benefit the hobby as a whole and, perhaps, send some like-minded players over to the weird games that I like. And that's the worst case scenario. Best case is that the game succeeds and now we have more opportunities to play something other than D&D (TM).
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. If it turns out to be some secret new world order woke plot funded by George Soros, well shucks you fooled me. No shame in that.
Greetings!
*Laughing* "George Soros Funded!" So hilarious. And, you know it's true, too. "some secret new world order plot funded by George Soroes". OMG. Geesus. You know, Rytrasmi, the clown-world we are living in just seems to get more absurd and mind-boggling stupid *every day*--that I often just howl in laughter now, at all the nonsense.It's too much stupid train! It's also hilarious that like with your observation there--on one hand, we know it can sound absolutely ridiculous--but on the other hand, as we have lived and seen, we know these seemingly "Ridiculous" things, are so often exactly true! I'm getting into a rant now, LOL, but good commentary, my friend.I love the humour.
I need to make some new coffee and light up my pipe.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 24, 2023, 04:40:39 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 24, 2023, 01:37:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2023, 12:52:51 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 24, 2023, 12:05:07 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2023, 11:12:23 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 10:38:54 PM
I believe the sequence of events was roughly:
1. She wrote it using OGL, and had already announced the KS launch date.
2. Then WotC made noises about revoking OGL and she consulted with lawyers and started scrubbing the doc of any WotC IP that might be a problem. For example there was a version where stirges became "stingbats"
3. Then WotC caved and put the 5.1 SRD into CC.
4. To avoid the KS launch date slipping she included the CC attribution and carried on with the ready-for-the-printers manuscript.
I might have misstated or omitted some details, but that's the gist.
She's never made any bones about this being an offshoot of D&D. She has published a bunch of 5e adventures and has expressed a fondness for the system. If the purity test is being adequately anti-5e or anti-WotC to please everyone here, she'll fail that for sure.
I think that's a flat out stupid purity test. Fact is that if every single one of her ~10k backers *and* all their friends never bought a WotC product ever again, WotC likely wouldn't even notice.
Whatever
Care to point to where ANYONE says it has to be anti-5e or anti-WotC or anti-ANYTHING?
Pointing out that using either the OGL or the CC By contributes to D&D's network effect isn't putting ANY requirement on her or her game, it's just pointing a fact that negates the game having a negative effect on D&D, something that has been stated (by people here, who I'm answering to) the game will do.
After that you can resume calling everyone a bigot.
*Laughing* Wow.
First, I wouldn't use "bigot" in relation to a bias for or against a game system or company. I reserve that word for more serious and impactful biases.
Second, this forum and thread are chock full of all sorts of anti-this and anti-that, especially anti-WotC, which I'm actually cool with. WotC sucks.
Third, SHARK praised the author saying "she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style" and called it a 'very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC"
Fourth, Steven Mitchell said "Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. "
THEN you chimed in that if the game used the OGL or CC it did anything but that.
So yeah, the context of the thread was *absolutely* about the author specifically being anti-WotC, taking notice, stomping on them, "fuck you", WotC's BS, WotC being smug assholes, and so on. But hey, sorry to have ruffled your feathers! Bless your heart.
*More laughing*
NOWHERE in your wall of text have you provided proof that ANYONE established a "purity test" (your own words) that the game or the developer have to be anti-ANYTHING.
Now, you can either provide it or admit you were wrong.
As for calling people a bigot, my bad, I mixed you with fingerrod.
I stated that *if* the purity test is being anti-WotC, she'd fail. And that I think such a test is dumb. I stand by that. If you think I'm wrong about that, that's ok. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me.
I did not accuse any specific person of promulgating such a test, though based on my short time here it strikes me as likely that some folks here feel that way. I've certainly known folks elsewhere who feel that way.
I know SHARK does *not* feel that way. He's happy to see WotC take a hit, but he's also praised Kelsey Dionne for her business acumen. If you're defending him, no need. I did not intend to imply he was using such a test. He quite evidently is not.
SHARK, my apologies sir! Like FingerRod, I have a high regard for your posts on this topic. If I've treated you unfairly, I am sorry.
My words clearly struck a nerve with you, Geeky, but I don't know you well enough to speculate as to why. And without knowing why, I honestly don't know if I'm sorry or not. And at this point I am beyond caring. So if this isn't enough, you'll just have to cope somehow.
Cheers!
Greetings!
Thank you, Festus. I'm glad you enjoy my commentary. And, you are fine, my friend. You have not offended me in any way, so we are good.
I also believe you are right though. Even if a particular dynamic is not being explicitly stated--like "Purity Tests"--it can still feel that way, as inferred by people's actions, or words, or tone, for example. This issue right here, also for example, is not the first time that various people here have brought up the issue or feel that is sometimes pushed here in various discussions that do seem to promote a kind of "Purity Testing" or "Purity Spiral". We all know that Libtards embrace such--but even others can get caught up in doing the same kind of attitude or dynamic.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I dare him or you to back your claims of purity test.
Mind reading doesn't cut it, that's the SJW way.
He KNOWS he can't so he backpedals and goes into "I said IF!" as if he wasn't implying there was a purity test, and now you are saying there's one even if not explicit.
Well by all means do the work and show us all the quotes and the logical steps to get to that conclusion. But no mind reading allowed.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 26, 2023, 09:28:35 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 24, 2023, 04:40:39 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 24, 2023, 01:37:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2023, 12:52:51 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 24, 2023, 12:05:07 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2023, 11:12:23 PM
Quote from: Festus on March 23, 2023, 10:38:54 PM
I believe the sequence of events was roughly:
1. She wrote it using OGL, and had already announced the KS launch date.
2. Then WotC made noises about revoking OGL and she consulted with lawyers and started scrubbing the doc of any WotC IP that might be a problem. For example there was a version where stirges became "stingbats"
3. Then WotC caved and put the 5.1 SRD into CC.
4. To avoid the KS launch date slipping she included the CC attribution and carried on with the ready-for-the-printers manuscript.
I might have misstated or omitted some details, but that's the gist.
She's never made any bones about this being an offshoot of D&D. She has published a bunch of 5e adventures and has expressed a fondness for the system. If the purity test is being adequately anti-5e or anti-WotC to please everyone here, she'll fail that for sure.
I think that's a flat out stupid purity test. Fact is that if every single one of her ~10k backers *and* all their friends never bought a WotC product ever again, WotC likely wouldn't even notice.
Whatever
Care to point to where ANYONE says it has to be anti-5e or anti-WotC or anti-ANYTHING?
Pointing out that using either the OGL or the CC By contributes to D&D's network effect isn't putting ANY requirement on her or her game, it's just pointing a fact that negates the game having a negative effect on D&D, something that has been stated (by people here, who I'm answering to) the game will do.
After that you can resume calling everyone a bigot.
*Laughing* Wow.
First, I wouldn't use "bigot" in relation to a bias for or against a game system or company. I reserve that word for more serious and impactful biases.
Second, this forum and thread are chock full of all sorts of anti-this and anti-that, especially anti-WotC, which I'm actually cool with. WotC sucks.
Third, SHARK praised the author saying "she took notice of WOTC's BS, and swiftly set herself up...to stomp on them, with style" and called it a 'very nice "Fuck You!" to WOTC"
Fourth, Steven Mitchell said "Anything that takes a bite out of WotC and their host of smug assholes is a net plus. "
THEN you chimed in that if the game used the OGL or CC it did anything but that.
So yeah, the context of the thread was *absolutely* about the author specifically being anti-WotC, taking notice, stomping on them, "fuck you", WotC's BS, WotC being smug assholes, and so on. But hey, sorry to have ruffled your feathers! Bless your heart.
*More laughing*
NOWHERE in your wall of text have you provided proof that ANYONE established a "purity test" (your own words) that the game or the developer have to be anti-ANYTHING.
Now, you can either provide it or admit you were wrong.
As for calling people a bigot, my bad, I mixed you with fingerrod.
I stated that *if* the purity test is being anti-WotC, she'd fail. And that I think such a test is dumb. I stand by that. If you think I'm wrong about that, that's ok. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me.
I did not accuse any specific person of promulgating such a test, though based on my short time here it strikes me as likely that some folks here feel that way. I've certainly known folks elsewhere who feel that way.
I know SHARK does *not* feel that way. He's happy to see WotC take a hit, but he's also praised Kelsey Dionne for her business acumen. If you're defending him, no need. I did not intend to imply he was using such a test. He quite evidently is not.
SHARK, my apologies sir! Like FingerRod, I have a high regard for your posts on this topic. If I've treated you unfairly, I am sorry.
My words clearly struck a nerve with you, Geeky, but I don't know you well enough to speculate as to why. And without knowing why, I honestly don't know if I'm sorry or not. And at this point I am beyond caring. So if this isn't enough, you'll just have to cope somehow.
Cheers!
Greetings!
Thank you, Festus. I'm glad you enjoy my commentary. And, you are fine, my friend. You have not offended me in any way, so we are good.
I also believe you are right though. Even if a particular dynamic is not being explicitly stated--like "Purity Tests"--it can still feel that way, as inferred by people's actions, or words, or tone, for example. This issue right here, also for example, is not the first time that various people here have brought up the issue or feel that is sometimes pushed here in various discussions that do seem to promote a kind of "Purity Testing" or "Purity Spiral". We all know that Libtards embrace such--but even others can get caught up in doing the same kind of attitude or dynamic.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I dare him or you to back your claims of purity test.
Mind reading doesn't cut it, that's the SJW way.
He KNOWS he can't so he backpedals and goes into "I said IF!" as if he wasn't implying there was a purity test, and now you are saying there's one even if not explicit.
Well by all means do the work and show us all the quotes and the logical steps to get to that conclusion. But no mind reading allowed.
Greetings!
Hey GeekyBugle!
Well, to my mind, it isn't about "Mind Reading" at all, brother. It is more of an impression, gained from people's written tone. As far as quotations or "evidence"--I can't be bothered to go back 10 or 15 pages searching for various snippets of conversation and commentary. It is an impression I got from more than one commentator engaging in increasingly needle-fine critiques of Shadowdark, suggesting that Shadowdark isn't really OSR, or OSR "enough". To me, such fine-tooth comb searching for something in Shadowdark seemed to be very petty--and embracing an attitude of "Purity Tests". Several other members also pointed this dynamic out--so I am certainly not unique or alone in making that observation.
Just go back and read it all yourself. If you get the impression of a kind of "Purity Testing" being embraced, great. If you don't, then you don't.
I picked up on it though, again, as did others.
Several people have also remarked about such pettiness and "Purity Testing" tome in private e-mails to me. These members may have or may not have expressed such opinions directly in the thread, but they still interpreted some of the commentary here as embracing a "Purity Testing" attitude, and being increasingly petty in trying to find something to criticize Shadowdark about--or Kelsey herself.
So, again, I would say, go back through the pages, and read it yourself. Ask yourself, "Is this line of critique petty?" and "Is this commentator running a fine-toothed comb in critiquing Shadowdark in some superficial way that doesn't align with what they think of as OSR?"; and then, looking at several such examples, ask yourself if such commentary sounds like they are embracing "Purity Testing".
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 26, 2023, 09:28:35 PM
I dare him or you to back your claims of purity test.
Mind reading doesn't cut it, that's the SJW way.
He KNOWS he can't so he backpedals and goes into "I said IF!" as if he wasn't implying there was a purity test, and now you are saying there's one even if not explicit.
Well by all means do the work and show us all the quotes and the logical steps to get to that conclusion. But no mind reading allowed.
Oh I absolutely implied there might be an anti-5e or anti-WotC purity test, and intentionally so. But I qualified my statement with "if" and did not accuse any specific individuals precisely because I am *not* a mind reader. I raised the possibility because I thought it relevant to the discussion.
I also am not going to go back through reams of posts to pluck out quotes, but I stand by my words as written. I am curious as to why you are so torqued up about it, though. We're talking about a *
game* after all. Did you think we were discussing something else?
Personally I think the OSR could really benefit from a "purity test" or for an actual grown up term. A robust set of unequivocal standards that can be agreed upon for what does and does not define an OSR game. I think such a think could only benefit the OSR. Because I'm sick and tired of people striping rules out of 5E and calling that an OSR product with very little change. I'm not saying that OSR should just be B/X derived stuff. But that in whatever form an OSR game takes it should follow the dos and don'ts. To prevent fairweather games shallowly using the OSR as a marketing gimmick.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 27, 2023, 09:39:18 AM
Personally I think the OSR could really benefit from a "purity test" or for an actual grown up term. A robust set of unequivocal standards that can be agreed upon for what does and does not define an OSR game. I think such a think could only benefit the OSR. Because I'm sick and tired of people striping rules out of 5E and calling that an OSR product with very little change. I'm not saying that OSR should just be B/X derived stuff. But that in whatever form an OSR game takes it should follow the dos and don'ts. To prevent fairweather games shallowly using the OSR as a marketing gimmick.
I think to literally create rules for what constitutes an "OSR" game is (somewhat?) antithetical to the entire movement, though I wholeheartedly share your sentiment that the term is being used far too broadly and at times even inappropriately, such that it means very little these days. A label like OSR *should* convey certain qualities so that people can see the label applied to a particular game and assume certain things. A while back on Dragonsfoot there was a good thread where people debated a few other terms to use to differentiate among various categories of clones/retroclones/new games, but that effort seems to have died out.
And I certainly agree with the above poster that we need to be careful about using "OSR" for what is and will soon be an avalanche of 5e-inspired games. I will hold my opinion on whether ShadowDark falls into this category, and I am also not sure what to do with an otherwise great game like Into the Unknown, a similar OSR-inspired variation on the 5e ruleset.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 27, 2023, 09:39:18 AM
Personally I think the OSR could really benefit from a "purity test" or for an actual grown up term. A robust set of unequivocal standards that can be agreed upon for what does and does not define an OSR game. I think such a think could only benefit the OSR. Because I'm sick and tired of people striping rules out of 5E and calling that an OSR product with very little change. I'm not saying that OSR should just be B/X derived stuff. But that in whatever form an OSR game takes it should follow the dos and don'ts. To prevent fairweather games shallowly using the OSR as a marketing gimmick.
The exercise would be pointless. It's the same as defining what "story" means in an RPG. No one agrees exactly on either.
What is helpful is to provide your own context. "I think X is OSR and Y is not OSR because reasons A, B, and C". Presumably those reasons give the reader insight into the criteria being used to make the judgment. Then the reader can decide if those reasons make sense. Moreover, the reader can decide if those reasons are even relevant.
Of course, it would be even better to drop the OSR part out of it entirely, and explain what is enjoyed or not enjoyed about the particular thing. If I say I'm running a game that has some OSR elements, doesn't mean much out of context. If I say I'm running a game with some "old school feel with more modern mechanics" that tells you a lot more. It's not perfect, and still subject to misinterpretation, but it is better. However, we live in a world where everyone wants the capsule in 254 characters or less, with nuance, and interest. Which is frankly, a stupid expectation. So what we get instead is "conversation starters" of varying degrees of sincerity. "This isn't OSR to me" means exactly nada when it comes to facts or information conveyed. It means, "if you want to, we could talk about why, assuming I even know why I feel the way I do about it". If we are being generous. It could also mean someone is trying to blow things up. It could even mean someone is trying to draw clicks ....
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 27, 2023, 11:08:41 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 27, 2023, 09:39:18 AM
Personally I think the OSR could really benefit from a "purity test" or for an actual grown up term. A robust set of unequivocal standards that can be agreed upon for what does and does not define an OSR game. I think such a think could only benefit the OSR. Because I'm sick and tired of people striping rules out of 5E and calling that an OSR product with very little change. I'm not saying that OSR should just be B/X derived stuff. But that in whatever form an OSR game takes it should follow the dos and don'ts. To prevent fairweather games shallowly using the OSR as a marketing gimmick.
The exercise would be pointless. It's the same as defining what "story" means in an RPG. No one agrees exactly on either.
What is helpful is to provide your own context. "I think X is OSR and Y is not OSR because reasons A, B, and C". Presumably those reasons give the reader insight into the criteria being used to make the judgment. Then the reader can decide if those reasons make sense. Moreover, the reader can decide if those reasons are even relevant.
Of course, it would be even better to drop the OSR part out of it entirely, and explain what is enjoyed or not enjoyed about the particular thing. If I say I'm running a game that has some OSR elements, doesn't mean much out of context. If I say I'm running a game with some "old school feel with more modern mechanics" that tells you a lot more. It's not perfect, and still subject to misinterpretation, but it is better. However, we live in a world where everyone wants the capsule in 254 characters or less, with nuance, and interest. Which is frankly, a stupid expectation. So what we get instead is "conversation starters" of varying degrees of sincerity. "This isn't OSR to me" means exactly nada when it comes to facts or information conveyed. It means, "if you want to, we could talk about why, assuming I even know why I feel the way I do about it". If we are being generous. It could also mean someone is trying to blow things up. It could even mean someone is trying to draw clicks ....
I agree it would be pointless or even detrimental to try and create some top down standard. Who would determine the standard? How are those people chosen? Some sort of council or standards committee? How does that even work in a creative industry?
Honestly, using a label with the words "old school" and critiquing new games for mining ideas from other products and not being original enough seems a bit incongruous. I think it has to be a subjective "eye of the beholder" situation. If the lable is evocative and descriptive enough, the community will adopt it. Naturally over time the meaning will evolve and new terms will come along.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 27, 2023, 09:39:18 AM
Personally I think the OSR could really benefit from a "purity test" or for an actual grown up term. A robust set of unequivocal standards that can be agreed upon for what does and does not define an OSR game. I think such a think could only benefit the OSR. Because I'm sick and tired of people striping rules out of 5E and calling that an OSR product with very little change.
5e is already heavily OSR influenced and very easy to drift further in that direction. The design was influenced by Pundit & Zak. WoTC were burned by the failure of 4e and 5e was a (successful) reaction against 4e in a largely OSR direction. Of course bits are half-assed (on the GM side) and there are still some 4e-isms in there. But they didn't go back to 3e, seeing that Paizo had the market for heavy crunch, caster supremacy D&D.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 27, 2023, 09:39:18 AM
Personally I think the OSR could really benefit from a "purity test" or for an actual grown up term. A robust set of unequivocal standards that can be agreed upon for what does and does not define an OSR game. I think such a think could only benefit the OSR. Because I'm sick and tired of people striping rules out of 5E and calling that an OSR product with very little change. I'm not saying that OSR should just be B/X derived stuff. But that in whatever form an OSR game takes it should follow the dos and don'ts. To prevent fairweather games shallowly using the OSR as a marketing gimmick.
Certainly a lot of games get called OSR when 'retro' would be a much more apt term.
Prof. DM addressed the kerfuffle with our Pundit on his latest video on
Shadowdark. (Is it
Shadowdark or
ShadowDark, by the way?)
We'll probably get to thirty... But can we do 31 forum pages of free Shadowdark advertising?
I'll pitch in:
Quote from: zer0th on March 28, 2023, 12:27:20 PM
Prof. DM addressed the kerfuffle with our Pundit on his latest video on Shadowdark. (Is it Shadowdark or ShadowDark, by the way?)
...
Bah! He pussed out. (and I like the guy)
Names!!!! PDM Names!!
He just glossed over it as a non-troversey.
But trip-over-your-dick fawning reviews do come across as suspect when all the relationships to the designer are not made clear.
PDM didn't seem to get that.
Anyway, on with the purity test debate, and my dream of 31+ pages...
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PowerfulLegitimateBichonfrise-max-1mb.gif)
Quote from: Jaeger on March 28, 2023, 01:28:33 PM
Anyway, on with the purity test debate, and my dream of 31+ pages...
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PowerfulLegitimateBichonfrise-max-1mb.gif)
I'm accusing Jaeger of impure thoughts. I mean just look at the grin on his face as he eats that popcorn! :D
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.
Greetings!
Very cool! ShadowDark has exceeded well over 1,000,000 dollars! I think it reached over 1.2 MILLION.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.
I agree. I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 12:08:05 PM
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.
I agree. I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.
(https://media.tenor.com/MN5_Om7EuQ0AAAAC/megamind-presentation.gif)
Tight and focused paid and unpaid shilling from friends/connections + an actual marketing campaign did not hurt her cause.
But I suspect that it was really the article in FORBES online that put ShadowDark over the top... ;)
And there was some lucky timing involved with Wotzi getting stupid about the OGL.
Her 5e adventures probably have a much bigger general audience than most OSR publishers. I'd say that she was likely able to leverage a portion of that audience into giving SD a go.
But honestly, who gives a fuck about that?
What I want to know is can arguing about woke purity tests get us to the magic 31 pages of free ShadowDark advertising on the RPGSite?
I have found the last few posts rather lacking guys.
Do better.
(https://media.tenor.com/5Eok6WE3lpUAAAAC/popcorn.gif)
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 12:08:05 PM
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.
I agree. I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.
I don't either. And didn't back Shadowdark.
But I have to point out that you just recently started a thread praising OSE, which is simply B/X. Not throwing shade on OSE, I backed it, but the standard seems odd to me.
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.
I see you skipped the discussion and went right to the end to post.
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.
Dozens, you say? The Shadowdark KS has 13000+ backers. Homebrew is great, but a well designed product has a lot of thought and playtesting put into it.
It's not ground breaking, it's not earth shattering, it's not even that novel, yeah yeah. But 80% of success is showing up, and Shadowdark showed up.
Greetings!
Here, DM Bloodworth, host of Unscripted & Unchained, provides an additional analysis of the ShadowDark RPG.
ShadowDark takes many systems and mechanics from other games and presents them, perhaps also modified, in one book. Layout, presentation, and artwork are all straightforward and fantastic! Kelsey also includes various modern game concepts from 5E and blends them well with OSR concepts into the ShadowDark game. Everything looks outstanding!
Some people whine that "There isn't anything really new or original in ShadowDark!"
Well, sure there is. Presenting in new and innovative ways. Combining older concepts and newer concepts in interesting, creative ways. Furthermore, strictly speaking, there is precious few things anywhere in the OSR that are genuinely *new* or *original*. If you are happy with OSE, or Minotaurs & Mazes, or whatever--great! That doesn't mean, however, that having new games produced and contributed to the hobby--like ShadowDark--isn't worthwhile, or meaningful. Many other people respond precisely to the same subject, but flavoured or presented in a different way. Kelsey has very clearly been influenced by ICRPG, LOTFP, OD&D, AD&D, DCC, and 5E. There is nothing wrong with her creating a new game and contributing her creativity to the TPG hobby.
Secondly, there are many gamers that are not fucking grognards that already own 12 different game systems. They were introduced to RPG's through only 5E. ShadowDark will likely also be attractive to them, and introduce the OSR gaming style to them. Growing the hobby--and especially gaining more fans of the OSR style, to me, seems like an excellent contribution and worthwhile effort that should be celebrated and applauded.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 12:50:52 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 12:08:05 PM
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.
I agree. I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.
I don't either. And didn't back Shadowdark.
But I have to point out that you just recently started a thread praising OSE, which is simply B/X. Not throwing shade on OSE, I backed it, but the standard seems odd to me.
My guess is that:
- a lot of backers are 5e players and Shadowdark is their introduction to OSR-like games.
- a lot of backers were already fans of the designer's 5e adventures, followed her on Youtube, members of her Discord, social media, etc.
- some backers find existing OSR games and communities to be intimidating, off-putting, or even unwelcoming
If so, it literally doesn't matter that other games do the same things. These backers aren't looking at, interested in, or aware of those other games.
Quote from: Festus on March 30, 2023, 02:14:43 PM
My guess is that:
- a lot of backers are 5e players and Shadowdark is their introduction to OSR-like games.
- a lot of backers were already fans of the designer's 5e adventures, followed her on Youtube, members of her Discord, social media, etc.
- some backers find existing OSR games and communities to be intimidating, off-putting, or even unwelcoming
If so, it literally doesn't matter that other games do the same things. These backers aren't looking at, interested in, or aware of those other games.
And just like that market oppottunities present themselves for OSR writers to push their products on folks now hungry to learn and consume more.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 12:50:52 PM
I don't either. And didn't back Shadowdark.
But I have to point out that you just recently started a thread praising OSE, which is simply B/X. Not throwing shade on OSE, I backed it, but the standard seems odd to me.
What standard? I am not sure what the hell you are talking about. I was saying that because I have OSE it does early less complicated fantasy. All Shadowdark would be is a duplicate product that sits on my shelf. why do I need that? The answer is I do not.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PM
Snipping out garbage that has nothing to do with anything I asked
Quote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PMHer 5e adventures probably have a much bigger general audience than most OSR publishers. I'd say that she was likely able to leverage a portion of that audience into giving SD a go.
With OSE I can use OSE and any B/X adventure for years of gaming with the one book if I like. For a lot less money
Quote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PMBut honestly, who gives a fuck about that?
Not me. She isnt the first designer who put out something I cant already do with what I have, wont be the last.
I can't help to think when it comes to critics of Shadowdark, that there might be a tinge of jealousy involved.
A bit of "God dammit! Why didn't I think of that!" sort of thing.
I perused the quick start rules. Sure, not everything there is original.
The presentation is good, clear, concise.
Artwork is definitely within the OSR style.
she used her connections within the industry, which btw there is NOTHING wrong in doing so, to spread the word. Anyone who has any business sense would do the same thing.
She got great traction from many online reviewers (YouTube for example) and IIRC recognition from Forbes magazine doesn't hurt.
Now the Kickstarter is done and she raised more than $1 million.
So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?
Me? Shit, I'll admit it. Yeah, I am a little bit. But my knowledge of 5E is minimal, which Shadowdark is partly based upon (and I hate 5e). So, there really wouldn't have been any chance of me coming up with such of game.
Because quite frankly, all of the negatives are not of the game mechanics themselves, but for the most part opinions and straw man arguments. Saying Shadowdark "isn't original" or "it's just repackaged rules" isn't an argument, let alone a fair critique of the rules on how they play.
If someone can give a true opinion on the rules and if there are any faults within them, which form what I've seen there hasn't been ANY negatives so far by reviewers on YouTube, then I'm all ears.
Otherwise, the "criticisms" smack of jealousy.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 12:08:05 PM
I agree. I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.
First off the OSR is not a zero sum game. Thus Shadowdark is great for some folks and not great for others. And this is OK.
As an RPG, Shadowdark is a well-designed minimalist system that plays well. Which is harder to pull off than most folks think. Being minimalist every element of the system has to pull its weight and it does. After playing it and refereeing it I see the appeal.
But it doesn't mean I am going to drop using my Majestic Fantasy RPG (a Swords & Wizardry variant) in favor of Shadowdark. I like a bit more detail than what Shadowdark has in the rules I use for my campaigns.
But also the same time, because the system is well-designed I can see how to take some of what I do with my Majestic Fantasy RPG and translate it to work as part of Shadowdark. Some details will be lost due to Shadowdark's minimalism but the most important elements will port over. So likely for a few things I do, I will be releasing Shadowdark versions.
Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?
Nope. I am glad she is successful with it, I don't care that she is a women or even a gay women.
I have what i need for my fantasy needs and I don't need to spend money on a game I won't ever use. I don't do that anymore. I only keep the books I use and sell the ones that I don't so my collection has been trimmed down considerably.
I only speak for myself, not for others.
Quote from: estar on March 30, 2023, 03:28:18 PM
First off the OSR is not a zero sum game. Thus Shadowdark is great for some folks and not great for others. And this is OK.
As an RPG, Shadowdark is a well-designed minimalist system that plays well. Which is harder to pull off than most folks think. Being minimalist every element of the system has to pull its weight and it does. After playing it and refereeing it I see the appeal.
But it doesn't mean I am going to drop using my Majestic Fantasy RPG (a Swords & Wizardry variant) in favor of Shadowdark. I like a bit more detail than what Shadowdark has in the rules I use for my campaigns.
But also the same time, because the system is well-designed I can see how to take some of what I do with my Majestic Fantasy RPG and translate it to work as part of Shadowdark. Some details will be lost due to Shadowdark's minimalism but the most important elements will port over. So likely for a few things I do, I will be releasing Shadowdark versions.
Yep that is great. I am sure it will work for some. I wish her success, I just dont need it.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 03:16:29 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PMHer 5e adventures probably have a much bigger general audience than most OSR publishers. I'd say that she was likely able to leverage a portion of that audience into giving SD a go.
With OSE I can use OSE and any B/X adventure for years of gaming with the one book if I like. For a lot less money
So what?
OSE and other OSR games
are not ShadowDarks competition.
People already into the OSR, and games like OSE
are not ShadowDarks target audience.
Because this:
Quote from: Festus on March 30, 2023, 02:14:43 PM
My guess is that:
a lot of backers are 5e players and Shadowdark is their introduction to OSR-like games.
a lot of backers were already fans of the designer's 5e adventures, followed her on Youtube, members of her Discord, social media, etc.
Some backers find existing OSR games and communities to be intimidating, off-putting, or even unwelcoming.
If so, it literally doesn't matter that other games do the same things. These backers aren't looking at, interested in, or aware of those other games.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/1BZSEGf9nGlScdksrc/giphy.gif)
Gettin' spicy again! We just cracked 31 pages. Dare we dream of 32 pages of free ShadowDark advertising!?
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/hVTouq08miyVo1a21m/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952698jx1tcs9vm2ij0xpyztgz7lqjoy9xrgczoormz&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 03:12:45 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 12:50:52 PM
I don't either. And didn't back Shadowdark.
But I have to point out that you just recently started a thread praising OSE, which is simply B/X. Not throwing shade on OSE, I backed it, but the standard seems odd to me.
What standard? I am not sure what the hell you are talking about. I was saying that because I have OSE it does early less complicated fantasy. All Shadowdark would be is a duplicate product that sits on my shelf. why do I need that? The answer is I do not.
Settle down, Lucy, it wasn't an attack.
This was said:
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 12:08:05 PM
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.
I agree. I am not sure what makes Shadowdark so great over the many other OSR games out there today.
You agreed that the phenomenon is baffling to you too. You said you aren't sure what makes is so great. I said I agree, I don't see what makes it so great either. In another thread you are promoting OSE, a repackage of B/X. Why wouldn't you be baffled by the success of OSE Or wondering what makes OSE so great?
I never said you or anybody should purchase Shadowdark.
Mainly keeping this alive to see Jaeger cream himself if it hits way beyond 31...
Quote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PMWhat I want to know is can arguing about woke purity tests get us to the magic 31 pages of free ShadowDark advertising on the RPGSite?
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/f94b21342c96ad6df4700feaac6edc7e/40e9ed80aa5c470c-01/s640x960/8e4bda5a094fb7de410b120ce05c7e28e1ff8373.gif)
Quote from: SHARK on March 30, 2023, 01:41:21 PMFurthermore, strictly speaking, there is precious few things anywhere in the OSR that are genuinely *new* or *original*.
That's different, though, cuz the exalted OSR is built on the backs of the greatest TTRPG ever published. That fact alone makes any game under that label more innovative and worthy of praise than any 5e derived OSR wannabe gutter trash game, as well as 100% compatible with other OSR stuff (despite there being no standard or consistent presentation of WTF exactly constitutes an "OSR game", making such a claim dubious at best, or an outright lie at worst).
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 03:16:29 PMQuote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PMBut honestly, who gives a fuck about that?
Not me. She isnt the first designer who put out something I cant already do with what I have, wont be the last.
You don't give a fuck so much you feel the need to make like three+ posts per page remining us how you don't really want this game, but can't stop giving free advertisement for this unoriginal trash heap you desperately don't want.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 03:59:42 PM
Settle down, Lucy, it wasn't an attack.
I didnt take it as an attack. I just didnt understand what you meant by what you said.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 03:59:42 PM
Mainly keeping this alive to see Jaeger cream himself if it hits way beyond 31...
He will.
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 30, 2023, 04:03:17 PM
You don't give a fuck so much you feel the need to make like three+ posts per page remining us how you don't really want this game, but can't stop giving free advertisement for this unoriginal trash heap you desperately don't want.
No, I made 3 + posts replying to what people are saying.
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 04:10:08 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 03:59:42 PM
Settle down, Lucy, it wasn't an attack.
I didnt take it as an attack. I just didnt understand what you meant by what you said.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 03:59:42 PM
Mainly keeping this alive to see Jaeger cream himself if it hits way beyond 31...
He will.
We're cool. You were one of the few that I could stomach in /OSR before I gave up on Reddit (assuming you were the same ninja :)) ).
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 30, 2023, 04:03:17 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on March 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PMWhat I want to know is can arguing about woke purity tests get us to the magic 31 pages of free ShadowDark advertising on the RPGSite?
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/f94b21342c96ad6df4700feaac6edc7e/40e9ed80aa5c470c-01/s640x960/8e4bda5a094fb7de410b120ce05c7e28e1ff8373.gif)
(https://media.tenor.com/VHKnmSrUnNwAAAAC/salute-bet.gif)
Quote from: FingerRod on March 30, 2023, 03:59:42 PM
...
Mainly keeping this alive to see Jaeger cream himself if it hits way beyond 31...
(https://media.tenor.com/jca6oyXBcRcAAAAM/teamwork-gang.gif)
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 04:10:08 PM
...
He will.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/DeobURBiyoMRFO4GqD/giphy.gif)
(https://tenor.com/view/you-can-do-it-gif-25058984)
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 04:11:05 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 30, 2023, 04:03:17 PM
You don't give a fuck so much you feel the need to make like three+ posts per page remining us how you don't really want this game, but can't stop giving free advertisement for this unoriginal trash heap you desperately don't want.
No, I made 3 + posts replying to what people are saying.
In a thread you don't have to post about a game you don't care about. Your next separate reply to everyone who's replied to you should get this to page 32 if someone else doesn't beat you to it. ;)
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 30, 2023, 01:35:19 PM
Quote from: Marchand on March 30, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
I am finding the whole Shadowdark phenomenon baffling. I just scanned the free player quickstart and it looks like much the same old OSR stuff to me, with 5e stat checks added. Dozens of groups have probably already thought of that.
Dozens, you say? The Shadowdark KS has 13000+ backers. Homebrew is great, but a well designed product has a lot of thought and playtesting put into it.
It's not ground breaking, it's not earth shattering, it's not even that novel, yeah yeah. But 80% of success is showing up, and Shadowdark showed up.
Sure. I don't wish it ill. If it does well, all power to it.
What I am puzzled by is the intensity of personal investment some people clearly have for it - evident in this thread. My best guess is people are hoping this will Pathfinder D&D. I mean, yeah that would be hilarious, but it seems pretty unlikely.
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 30, 2023, 05:05:22 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 04:11:05 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 30, 2023, 04:03:17 PM
You don't give a fuck so much you feel the need to make like three+ posts per page remining us how you don't really want this game, but can't stop giving free advertisement for this unoriginal trash heap you desperately don't want.
No, I made 3 + posts replying to what people are saying.
In a thread you don't have to post about a game you don't care about. Your next separate reply to everyone who's replied to you should get this to page 32 if someone else doesn't beat you to it. ;)
I don't care about Sharp Swords and Sinister Spells by Old Skull Publishing.
In fact I'd never heard of it until I googled "list of OSR games" looking for something I'd never heard of.
Holy shit!
There's a lot I've never heard of.
Anyway I'm sure it's great (and possibly fascist, or snaky, or a micro-aggression against people with lisps - I mean "SS&SS"? Really?), but has about 12,000 fewer people who bought it than bought Shadowdark.
Which of course means fuck all.
Come on page 32!
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 30, 2023, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?
Nope. I am glad she is successful with it, I don't care that she is a women or even a gay women.
I have what i need for my fantasy needs and I don't need to spend money on a game I won't ever use. I don't do that anymore. I only keep the books I use and sell the ones that I don't so my collection has been trimmed down considerably.
I only speak for myself, not for others.
Sounds good to me.
Greetings!
I have zero interest in Call of Cthulhu games, or games set in space. So, I have nothing to say in those threads. Indeed, it is amazing how for so any people that have *zero* interest in ShadowDark though--they are very vocal about promoting their point of view on that! *Laughing*
Jealousy and grinding their nuts for sure!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 30, 2023, 01:41:21 PM
Greetings!
ShadowDark takes many systems and mechanics from other games and presents them, perhaps also modified, in one book.
This. 1000 times this.
I'm a busy guy. I would rather spend my time creating adventures than fiddling with house rules(unless we are talking about Tunnels and Trolls) and I like all of the material that she has collated into one complete game. Saves me the hassle of doing so. I like the advantage/disadvantage rules from 5E, the rolling spell checks and penalties for crit fail (I liked it in DCC but this is less cumbersome in play), I like the randomized talents at level up, the encumbrance system, and I like the presentation. The only thing I'm not sold on is the exp system although I am hoping for better examples in the complete game.
I became aware of it vis Prof DM's review. I downloaded the quick start and liked it. This is the first Kickstart that I have backs and I am looking forward to it.
As far as all the hand wringing going on......seems like a tempest in a teapot.
Mark
Quote from: shihansmurf on March 30, 2023, 06:29:15 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 30, 2023, 01:41:21 PM
Greetings!
ShadowDark takes many systems and mechanics from other games and presents them, perhaps also modified, in one book.
This. 1000 times this.
I'm a busy guy. I would rather spend my time creating adventures than fiddling with house rules(unless we are talking about Tunnels and Trolls) and I like all of the material that she has collated into one complete game. Saves me the hassle of doing so. I like the advantage/disadvantage rules from 5E, the rolling spell checks and penalties for crit fail (I liked it in DCC but this is less cumbersome in play), I like the randomized talents at level up, the encumbrance system, and I like the presentation. The only thing I'm not sold on is the exp system although I am hoping for better examples in the complete game.
I became aware of it vis Prof DM's review. I downloaded the quick start and liked it. This is the first Kickstart that I have backs and I am looking forward to it.
As far as all the hand wringing going on......seems like a tempest in a teapot.
Mark
Greetings!
I hear you, Mark! I've been an OSR guy, and also a 5E guy, forever. However, I don't have 12 different OD&D game books all rehashing the same basic game. I'm sure various games and retro-clones have little widgets that are great. I'm not interested in buying 12 different game books all doing the same thing.
Note: I have three sets of original AD&D books, including my first set from 1978. I also have a copy of OSRIC.
Then, *BOOM*--ShadowDark jumps in front of me. I was immediately impressed, and having seen a few of Kelsey's gaming videos before, I then watched Runehammer, Questing Beast, and Dungeoncraft, with Professor DM. That confirmed it for me. I then went and backed Shadowdark at the Legend level promptly. Everything you mentioned as being attractive. Damn right! I'm looking forward to ShadowDark. All the haters crying that Kelsey has got over 1 million dollars, *laughing*--that's just icing on the cake!
Welcome to the site, too, Mark!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 30, 2023, 07:34:03 PM
Quote from: shihansmurf on March 30, 2023, 06:29:15 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 30, 2023, 01:41:21 PM
Greetings!
ShadowDark takes many systems and mechanics from other games and presents them, perhaps also modified, in one book.
This. 1000 times this.
I'm a busy guy. I would rather spend my time creating adventures than fiddling with house rules(unless we are talking about Tunnels and Trolls) and I like all of the material that she has collated into one complete game. Saves me the hassle of doing so. I like the advantage/disadvantage rules from 5E, the rolling spell checks and penalties for crit fail (I liked it in DCC but this is less cumbersome in play), I like the randomized talents at level up, the encumbrance system, and I like the presentation. The only thing I'm not sold on is the exp system although I am hoping for better examples in the complete game.
I became aware of it vis Prof DM's review. I downloaded the quick start and liked it. This is the first Kickstart that I have backs and I am looking forward to it.
As far as all the hand wringing going on......seems like a tempest in a teapot.
Mark
Greetings!
I hear you, Mark! I've been an OSR guy, and also a 5E guy, forever. However, I don't have 12 different OD&D game books all rehashing the same basic game. I'm sure various games and retro-clones have little widgets that are great. I'm not interested in buying 12 different game books all doing the same thing.
Note: I have three sets of original AD&D books, including my first set from 1978. I also have a copy of OSRIC.
Then, *BOOM*--ShadowDark jumps in front of me. I was immediately impressed, and having seen a few of Kelsey's gaming videos before, I then watched Runehammer, Questing Beast, and Dungeoncraft, with Professor DM. That confirmed it for me. I then went and backed Shadowdark at the Legend level promptly. Everything you mentioned as being attractive. Damn right! I'm looking forward to ShadowDark. All the haters crying that Kelsey has got over 1 million dollars, *laughing*--that's just icing on the cake!
Welcome to the site, too, Mark!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I backed yesterday for the pdfs. Initially I didn't care for some of the game's features and wanted more meat on some others. But I downloaded several PWYW and $1-2 supplements off Drivethru and took a good look at what others were already building off the quickstart rules. I've been doing a lot of homebrewing to get a game that really fits my style and my world, but it's been a square peg, round hole effort the whole way. I think Shadowdark might be a foundation I can build on. If it's not then I'll likely ditch d20 systems altogether and try either the Year Zero engine used in Forbidden Lands or maybe Savage Worlds.
[EDIT] Aaaand 32 pages!
Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
I can't help to think when it comes to critics of Shadowdark, that there might be a tinge of jealousy involved.
A bit of "God dammit! Why didn't I think of that!" sort of thing.
I perused the quick start rules. Sure, not everything there is original.
The presentation is good, clear, concise.
Artwork is definitely within the OSR style.
she used her connections within the industry, which btw there is NOTHING wrong in doing so, to spread the word. Anyone who has any business sense would do the same thing.
She got great traction from many online reviewers (YouTube for example) and IIRC recognition from Forbes magazine doesn't hurt.
Now the Kickstarter is done and she raised more than $1 million.
So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?
What would I have to be jealous about? Again, raising ONE MILLION sure seems like a lot, but that's gross not net, and depending on what she promised and how careful she was, after you deduct all the various costs, she MIGHT end up earning more in that kickstarter than I'll earn this year. Since she seems to be pretty well-advised, she probably will. A lot of less organized people making those numbers will not (the Coyote & Crow guy, for example, who made ONE MILLION and is now bankrupt).
But I'll be making my money, and more, over and over again every year. No fancy Kickstarters needed, just making good product for real gamers.
According to interviews, Kelsey claims that SD took 3 years to create. So remove KS's cut, all the other people she has to pay, the printing and delivery costs, and then divide what's left by three: that's what she earned "per year" for this. She would have to be very organized and meticulous for that per-year earning number to reach six figures.
P.S. Once again, this past month broke the record as my biggest earning month of all time. Something that's happening every two or three months lately.
Whelp...that's 1.2 million bucks that won't be going into Hazards-of-the-Bro's coffers.
If anyone is still playing this game in a year, maybe I'll check it out.
I watched a few videos of people talking about this game. Everything they laud about it were features that already existed in the game decades ago.
Quote from: Timothe on April 02, 2023, 08:13:29 AM
I watched a few videos of people talking about this game. Everything they laud about it were features that already existed in the game decades ago.
Then you missed the entire point of those videos. "Whats old is New again" and a fresh new look at old ideas in a cleaner format is what it takes to make $1.3M in a single rpg product launch.
I have no interest in 5E or 5E derivative nonsense. I really don't. Game time is too precious.
I'm working hard to get my ruleset out by the end of the year. Possibly sooner.
I suspect that Shadowdark will still be going in a year's time as there are enough designers jumping onto the bandwagon and a steady trickle of modules and add-ons is coming out despite the finished product not being out yet. Add to that is that it's very easy to convert most OSR modules to SD.
My position is that, although there's nothing staggeringly new about SD, it's greatly preferable to a 5e that has become bloated and doesn't work for me much beyond the 5th or 6th level.
OSR produces a superb range of adventures and settings - Stonehell, Beyond the Wall, the Night Wolf Inn, most of the OSE adventures, Red Tide, Deep Carbon Observatory, etc., etc., etc. and if SD opens them up to a wider audience that's OK with me. Any one of these is better than another tired supplement set in the Forgotten Realms.
I think most everything being said about Shadowdark can be said about 90% of the OSR retroclone/simulacrum market. Put those playing OD&D, AD&D, or B/X to one side, almost everything else is just a rephrasing if not verbatim restatement of one of the original rulesets plus some random houserules and new art (some of which is just free internet clickart).
Criticizing Shadowdark for being "derivative" is hilariously ironic—where is the "originality" in ACKS, OSE, Labyrinth Lord, etc.? Even games one step away from this, like Castles & Crusades, are just ripoffs of the original material plus one changed mechanic. This entire niche of the rpg hobby is either people playing the original rules or playing a set of rules completely ripped off of those original rules. I don't have a problem with that—I own and like most of these sets—but this haughty denigration of certain OSR sets over other OSR sets on the grounds of originality is just silly.
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 03, 2023, 08:31:48 AM
I think most everything being said about Shadowdark can be said about 90% of the OSR retroclone/simulacrum market. Put those playing OD&D, AD&D, or B/X to one side, almost everything else is just a rephrasing if not verbatim restatement of one of the original rulesets plus some random houserules and new art (some of which is just free internet clickart).
Criticizing Shadowdark for being "derivative" is hilariously ironic—where is the "originality" in ACKS, OSE, Labyrinth Lord, etc.? Even games one step away from this, like Castles & Crusades, are just ripoffs of the original material plus one changed mechanic. This entire niche of the rpg hobby is either people playing the original rules or playing a set of rules completely ripped off of those original rules. I don't have a problem with that—I own and like most of these sets—but this haughty denigration of certain OSR sets over other OSR sets on the grounds of originality is just silly.
The thing is the OSR You Tubers didn't fall over themselves to claim LotFP or OSE was actually innovative and new. It was presented as it actually was. A retroclone. By both the authors and the critics. Who didn't have an existing relationship with the author. Shadowdark is being advertised (and make no mistake these You Tubers are advertising it regardless of if they are paid off or not.) as this bold and innovative new game that merges 5E and B/X. But it's no more innovative than Five Torches Deep. It's a dissonance from what is being told and what is actually existent. Which makes the whole thing come off as suspicious to me. Why present a game dishonestly?
Presumably though if ShadowDark had been presented as a retro-clone that would have been misleading? The Kickstarter campaign doesn't go much further than claiming that it's "Old school gaming. New school mechanics". Hardly a devastating claim of originality.
Quote from: Gegilles on April 02, 2023, 09:40:42 PM
I have no interest in 5E or 5E derivative nonsense.
This, 100%.
You are conflating two issuses:
1. To play any WotC edition or its derivative is to support the explicit racism of WotC. I have made clear I will not do that moving forward.
2. Can everyone please stop thinking like a player and think more broadly? The bottom line is people want to create and the want to do so safely under TSR-era D&D. The retroclones allow you to do so AND they created a flowering of D&D culture including rulesets, modules, supplements, conventions, community, and life-long friendships - all under the banner of D&D as it was intended and not the WokeC hot garbage.
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 03, 2023, 08:31:48 AM
I think most everything being said about Shadowdark can be said about 90% of the OSR retroclone/simulacrum market. Put those playing OD&D, AD&D, or B/X to one side, almost everything else is just a rephrasing if not verbatim restatement of one of the original rulesets plus some random houserules and new art (some of which is just free internet clickart).
Criticizing Shadowdark for being "derivative" is hilariously ironic—where is the "originality" in ACKS, OSE, Labyrinth Lord, etc.? Even games one step away from this, like Castles & Crusades, are just ripoffs of the original material plus one changed mechanic. This entire niche of the rpg hobby is either people playing the original rules or playing a set of rules completely ripped off of those original rules. I don't have a problem with that—I own and like most of these sets—but this haughty denigration of certain OSR sets over other OSR sets on the grounds of originality is just silly.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 01, 2023, 01:36:43 PM
Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
I can't help to think when it comes to critics of Shadowdark, that there might be a tinge of jealousy involved.
A bit of "God dammit! Why didn't I think of that!" sort of thing.
I perused the quick start rules. Sure, not everything there is original.
The presentation is good, clear, concise.
Artwork is definitely within the OSR style.
she used her connections within the industry, which btw there is NOTHING wrong in doing so, to spread the word. Anyone who has any business sense would do the same thing.
She got great traction from many online reviewers (YouTube for example) and IIRC recognition from Forbes magazine doesn't hurt.
Now the Kickstarter is done and she raised more than $1 million.
So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?
What would I have to be jealous about? Again, raising ONE MILLION sure seems like a lot, but that's gross not net, and depending on what she promised and how careful she was, after you deduct all the various costs, she MIGHT end up earning more in that kickstarter than I'll earn this year. Since she seems to be pretty well-advised, she probably will. A lot of less organized people making those numbers will not (the Coyote & Crow guy, for example, who made ONE MILLION and is now bankrupt).
But I'll be making my money, and more, over and over again every year. No fancy Kickstarters needed, just making good product for real gamers.
According to interviews, Kelsey claims that SD took 3 years to create. So remove KS's cut, all the other people she has to pay, the printing and delivery costs, and then divide what's left by three: that's what she earned "per year" for this. She would have to be very organized and meticulous for that per-year earning number to reach six figures.
P.S. Once again, this past month broke the record as my biggest earning month of all time. Something that's happening every two or three months lately.
RPGPundit, I think that's great for your situation. Believe me, if you can make a living at RPG design, that's awesome.
What I'm saying is some of the negative comments by the detractors are not much more than strawman arguments. They're not critiquing the rules themselves. They arguments are based upon "this is nothing new" or "it's just repackaged blah-blah-blah". Again, if anyone has any negative comments based upon the rules playability, then I willing to listen. Otherwise, those detractors do sound a bit on the jealous side.
I have no dog in this "fight". I'm just saying my point of view.
If people wanted to simply make money, they'd just publish strictly to whatever shite WokeC puts out.
Thankfully there are those who care about the origins of the hobby and the play-style that game engenders.
Quote from: Gegilles on April 03, 2023, 11:08:29 AM
If people wanted to simply make money, they'd just publish strictly to whatever shite WokeC put out.
Thankfully there are those who care about the origins of the hobby and the play-style that game engenders.
I can get behind that. 8)
Greetings!
Interesting video. Mr. Tarrasque provides further analysis of Shadowdark, and also chews on the haters. So hilarious!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 03, 2023, 10:27:03 PM
Greetings!
Interesting video. Mr. Tarrasque provides further analysis of Shadowdark, and also chews on the haters. So hilarious!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It was an interesting vid, but I think he misses an important facet of the Shadowdark rest mechanic. It requires you to consume a ration to get the benefits of the rest. Rations, like torches and treasure, take up precious gear slots. So resting becomes subject to the same resource management as seeing in the dark and earning XP. That's huge.
Quote from: Festus on April 04, 2023, 12:24:51 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 03, 2023, 10:27:03 PM
Greetings!
Interesting video. Mr. Tarrasque provides further analysis of Shadowdark, and also chews on the haters. So hilarious!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It was an interesting vid, but I think he misses an important facet of the Shadowdark rest mechanic. It requires you to consume a ration to get the benefits of the rest. Rations, like torches and treasure, take up precious gear slots. So resting becomes subject to the same resource management as seeing in the dark and earning XP. That's huge.
Yeah, having to eat to survive (wherein a piece of preserved fruit restores you to health) and needing light to see in the dark. Those are game changers. How has no one in the history of RPGs ever thought of this stuff before? She really is an absolute genius.
Crap like this is precisely why the hype over this game is out of hand.
I think you're missing the point being made there. This came out of the reviewer saying that he didn't like the rest rules and somebody pointing out that regaining hit points via a long rest was not quite as easy as in 5e. No claim was being made for originality.
None (or at least very few) of the rules in SD are original - that would be very difficult given the many years' worth of rulesets that are out there. The way that they are put together may, however have some elements of originality.
For whatever reason the rules have generated $1.3m worth of enthusiasm so should, I'd hope, be played a lot. As somebody else said, we'll see in a year.
Quote from: Persimmon on April 04, 2023, 08:57:18 AM
Quote from: Festus on April 04, 2023, 12:24:51 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 03, 2023, 10:27:03 PM
Greetings!
Interesting video. Mr. Tarrasque provides further analysis of Shadowdark, and also chews on the haters. So hilarious!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It was an interesting vid, but I think he misses an important facet of the Shadowdark rest mechanic. It requires you to consume a ration to get the benefits of the rest. Rations, like torches and treasure, take up precious gear slots. So resting becomes subject to the same resource management as seeing in the dark and earning XP. That's huge.
Yeah, having to eat to survive (wherein a piece of preserved fruit restores you to health) and needing light to see in the dark. Those are game changers. How has no one in the history of RPGs ever thought of this stuff before? She really is an absolute genius.
Crap like this is precisely why the hype over this game is out of hand.
You are building a strawman fit for a Burning Man festival here. There is vastly more to the game than those points as has been discussed in the past 30+ pages and Shadowdark brings dozens of books together into one condescned platform.
Is Shadowdark revolutionary? No. Is it Evolutionary? Yes. Was the kickstarter run successfully, professionally, and marketed well? Yes.
Bringing more people to OSR type games and systems benefits everyone in the gaming sphere who plays and sells products. Embrace the nearly 14,000 new potential "customers".
Quote from: Persimmon on April 04, 2023, 08:57:18 AM
Quote from: Festus on April 04, 2023, 12:24:51 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 03, 2023, 10:27:03 PM
Greetings!
Interesting video. Mr. Tarrasque provides further analysis of Shadowdark, and also chews on the haters. So hilarious!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It was an interesting vid, but I think he misses an important facet of the Shadowdark rest mechanic. It requires you to consume a ration to get the benefits of the rest. Rations, like torches and treasure, take up precious gear slots. So resting becomes subject to the same resource management as seeing in the dark and earning XP. That's huge.
Yeah, having to eat to survive (wherein a piece of preserved fruit restores you to health) and needing light to see in the dark. Those are game changers. How has no one in the history of RPGs ever thought of this stuff before? She really is an absolute genius.
Crap like this is precisely why the hype over this game is out of hand.
I did not mean it was a huge innovation for the hobby. I meant that it was a critical part of that game's design. If you watch the video, Tarrasque says that SD's rest mechanic is exactly like 5e's. It's not exactly the same because SD actually makes resource management an important part of the game. That's a huge difference from 5e. My remark was in specific reference to the video, which I watched before commenting on it.
That being said, the irony of folks devoted to playing clones and rehashes of 30-50 year old RPGs knocking a game for not being original enough is pretty amusing.
For the folks who feel Shadowdark is unoriginal or too derivative of existing games, what new and innovative TTRPG mechanics have you seen in the last 5-10 years that you genuinely liked and thought were cool?
Follow up question: Would you consider the games with those innovative mechanics to be part of the OSR?
FATE and its more elegant derivative Tripod. Neither of them OSR as they bear minimal resemblance to any edition of D&D. Both use free-form descriptors both of the characters and their environment that can be literally anything on which the player and the DM agree. (More later, if anyone is interested.)
Quote from: Festus on April 04, 2023, 12:09:48 PM
For the folks who feel Shadowdark is unoriginal or too derivative of existing games, what new and innovative TTRPG mechanics have you seen in the last 5-10 years that you genuinely liked and thought were cool?
Follow up question: Would you consider the games with those innovative mechanics to be part of the OSR?
Easy; the single save mechanic in Swords & Wizardry. That's pretty much it, off the top of my head. This is why I mostly stick to older games and retroclones. I don't want or need new mechanics to have fun. And I don't want to spend time learning new rules that then cut into my limited gaming time at the table.
So yes,
Shadowdark is clearly not for me, nor am I the target audience. Whether it does well or not, doesn't really matter to me either. Good for her and stick it to WOTC! I just find the fawning hype rather hilarious and manufactured. "Ohh, it's not just a short rest. She added a sandwich to add realism to hit point recovery and emphasize resource management." Bravo. Stunning & brave. And, in any case, as local favorite Daniel D. Fox once noted, "Naps don't heal stab wounds." But if that's your kind of game, go for it.
Finally, as someone else noted, it does seem that if some rando cis white guy designed the game instead of a frumpy, middle-aged lesbian, there would be somewhat less exaggerated hype. Maybe, I'm wrong there but I don't think so.
Quote from: Persimmon on April 04, 2023, 06:47:41 PM
Finally, as someone else noted, it does seem that if some rando cis white guy designed the game instead of a frumpy, middle-aged lesbian, there would be somewhat less exaggerated hype. Maybe, I'm wrong there but I don't think so.
I honestly don't agree with this. The crazy hype train for Mork Borg, to me at least, has me convinced that every so often theres just a huge hype train that seems to come out of nowhere. At least Shadowdark is more competent than Mork Borg or Troika lol. Though i generally agree that I prefer other games and didn't fund Shadowdark.
Quote from: Slambo on April 04, 2023, 08:04:21 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 04, 2023, 06:47:41 PM
Finally, as someone else noted, it does seem that if some rando cis white guy designed the game instead of a frumpy, middle-aged lesbian, there would be somewhat less exaggerated hype. Maybe, I'm wrong there but I don't think so.
I honestly don't agree with this. The crazy hype train for Mork Borg, to me at least, has me convinced that every so often theres just a huge hype train that seems to come out of nowhere. At least Shadowdark is more competent than Mork Borg or Troika lol. Though i generally agree that I prefer other games and didn't fund Shadowdark.
No; because I think the Mork Borg thing was primarily grounded in the weird style/aesthetic and presentation thing, amplified perhaps by the minimalist rules. I didn't care for nor did I buy the hype for that either. But to me, that game is more distinctive than Shadowdark along those lines. It was the art punk presentation that stood out, especially compared to games like OSE that were also popular at that time. Hell, it even seems like Shadowdark cribbed some of Mork Borg's design aesthetic.
THIRTY THREE!!!
Thirty Three pages of Free ShadowDark Advertising!!
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UntriedLinearAbyssiniancat-max-1mb.gif)
And the KickStarter has been Closed for Days!
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/c2162bf0453625a33695b4c1ea880c59/d6f1778626d9cca6-c6/s500x750/40423a0ecaee09d4e8ac5d9aff5cce84f1d1aec3.gif)
The denizens of The RPGSite did not disappoint...
(https://media.tenor.com/EJo2fz5TbhEAAAAM/boom-barrack-obama.gif)
Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2023, 08:25:04 PM
The denizens of The RPGSite did not disappoint.....
That's not what my dad said.
Adressing the above.
And though i used Mork Borg as the example, i probably should have used Index Card RPG which i also saw a sudden push for. I dunno, I just don't see Shadowdark as much different from a lot of the other hard pushes ive seen for other games. Right down to the fact that i have no idea why other people like it that much.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2023, 08:25:04 PM
THIRTY THREE!!!
Thirty Three pages of Free ShadowDark Advertising!!
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UntriedLinearAbyssiniancat-max-1mb.gif)
And the KickStarter has been Closed for Days!
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/c2162bf0453625a33695b4c1ea880c59/d6f1778626d9cca6-c6/s500x750/40423a0ecaee09d4e8ac5d9aff5cce84f1d1aec3.gif)
The denizens of The RPGSite did not disappoint...
(https://media.tenor.com/EJo2fz5TbhEAAAAM/boom-barrack-obama.gif)
That's easily a dozen sales, we really carried it over the finish line!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZDAzOTlkNzczNzcyOTY0MDQ2MjZlZWRhYWI2MGFhYTEwMjI3NzMyNSZjdD1n/RKBn2GjsnhmDe/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Festus on April 04, 2023, 12:24:51 AM
It was an interesting vid, but I think he misses an important facet of the Shadowdark rest mechanic. It requires you to consume a ration to get the benefits of the rest. Rations, like torches and treasure, take up precious gear slots. So resting becomes subject to the same resource management as seeing in the dark and earning XP. That's huge.
Are we talking about a video game or a tabletop RPG? Because if it's the latter, LOfuckingL
Quote from: blackstone on April 03, 2023, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 01, 2023, 01:36:43 PM
Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
I can't help to think when it comes to critics of Shadowdark, that there might be a tinge of jealousy involved.
A bit of "God dammit! Why didn't I think of that!" sort of thing.
I perused the quick start rules. Sure, not everything there is original.
The presentation is good, clear, concise.
Artwork is definitely within the OSR style.
she used her connections within the industry, which btw there is NOTHING wrong in doing so, to spread the word. Anyone who has any business sense would do the same thing.
She got great traction from many online reviewers (YouTube for example) and IIRC recognition from Forbes magazine doesn't hurt.
Now the Kickstarter is done and she raised more than $1 million.
So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?
What would I have to be jealous about? Again, raising ONE MILLION sure seems like a lot, but that's gross not net, and depending on what she promised and how careful she was, after you deduct all the various costs, she MIGHT end up earning more in that kickstarter than I'll earn this year. Since she seems to be pretty well-advised, she probably will. A lot of less organized people making those numbers will not (the Coyote & Crow guy, for example, who made ONE MILLION and is now bankrupt).
But I'll be making my money, and more, over and over again every year. No fancy Kickstarters needed, just making good product for real gamers.
According to interviews, Kelsey claims that SD took 3 years to create. So remove KS's cut, all the other people she has to pay, the printing and delivery costs, and then divide what's left by three: that's what she earned "per year" for this. She would have to be very organized and meticulous for that per-year earning number to reach six figures.
P.S. Once again, this past month broke the record as my biggest earning month of all time. Something that's happening every two or three months lately.
RPGPundit, I think that's great for your situation. Believe me, if you can make a living at RPG design, that's awesome.
What I'm saying is some of the negative comments by the detractors are not much more than strawman arguments. They're not critiquing the rules themselves. They arguments are based upon "this is nothing new" or "it's just repackaged blah-blah-blah". Again, if anyone has any negative comments based upon the rules playability, then I willing to listen. Otherwise, those detractors do sound a bit on the jealous side.
I have no dog in this "fight". I'm just saying my point of view.
I've repeatedly stated that I think that the rules seem to be good. I mean, how could I argue otherwise given that almost all of the rules that are "innovative" about Shadowdark are in Lion & Dragon?
Quote from: Festus on April 04, 2023, 12:24:51 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 03, 2023, 10:27:03 PM
Greetings!
Interesting video. Mr. Tarrasque provides further analysis of Shadowdark, and also chews on the haters. So hilarious!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It was an interesting vid, but I think he misses an important facet of the Shadowdark rest mechanic. It requires you to consume a ration to get the benefits of the rest. Rations, like torches and treasure, take up precious gear slots. So resting becomes subject to the same resource management as seeing in the dark and earning XP. That's huge.
Greetings!
Yeah, Mr. Tarrasque did mention the need for eating a Ration to gain the healing in the rest process--though he did so in kind of on the downturn of speaking, so it is easy to miss, as his voice trails off and is kind of quiet. Your point though being more explicit--yeah, linking it mechanically to resource management certainly does make it more meaningful. I can't imagine characters carrying a whole lot of food, with everything else, so them having lots of full heal rests is likely to be very limited.
That is actually pretty strong mechanically, and strategically, when you think about it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 05, 2023, 04:03:30 AM
Quote from: blackstone on April 03, 2023, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 01, 2023, 01:36:43 PM
Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
I can't help to think when it comes to critics of Shadowdark, that there might be a tinge of jealousy involved.
A bit of "God dammit! Why didn't I think of that!" sort of thing.
I perused the quick start rules. Sure, not everything there is original.
The presentation is good, clear, concise.
Artwork is definitely within the OSR style.
she used her connections within the industry, which btw there is NOTHING wrong in doing so, to spread the word. Anyone who has any business sense would do the same thing.
She got great traction from many online reviewers (YouTube for example) and IIRC recognition from Forbes magazine doesn't hurt.
Now the Kickstarter is done and she raised more than $1 million.
So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?
What would I have to be jealous about? Again, raising ONE MILLION sure seems like a lot, but that's gross not net, and depending on what she promised and how careful she was, after you deduct all the various costs, she MIGHT end up earning more in that kickstarter than I'll earn this year. Since she seems to be pretty well-advised, she probably will. A lot of less organized people making those numbers will not (the Coyote & Crow guy, for example, who made ONE MILLION and is now bankrupt).
But I'll be making my money, and more, over and over again every year. No fancy Kickstarters needed, just making good product for real gamers.
According to interviews, Kelsey claims that SD took 3 years to create. So remove KS's cut, all the other people she has to pay, the printing and delivery costs, and then divide what's left by three: that's what she earned "per year" for this. She would have to be very organized and meticulous for that per-year earning number to reach six figures.
P.S. Once again, this past month broke the record as my biggest earning month of all time. Something that's happening every two or three months lately.
RPGPundit, I think that's great for your situation. Believe me, if you can make a living at RPG design, that's awesome.
What I'm saying is some of the negative comments by the detractors are not much more than strawman arguments. They're not critiquing the rules themselves. They arguments are based upon "this is nothing new" or "it's just repackaged blah-blah-blah". Again, if anyone has any negative comments based upon the rules playability, then I willing to listen. Otherwise, those detractors do sound a bit on the jealous side.
I have no dog in this "fight". I'm just saying my point of view.
I've repeatedly stated that I think that the rules seem to be good. I mean, how could I argue otherwise given that almost all of the rules that are "innovative" about Shadowdark are in Lion & Dragon?
Greetings!
That is a strange coincidence, Pundit! It is a mystery, in her videos and from others, she openly has talked about creative influences and mentors that have had considerable influence on her, as a gamer and as a game designer--she's talked about RUNEHAMMER, Professor DM, DCC, OD&D, amongst others...but never *once* has she or anyone else amongst the YouTubers/Reviewers--that have all reviewed Shadowdark--have even mentioned you or Lion & Dragon.
Various reviewers have discussed clear influences from OD&D, DCC, ICRPG, 5E, but no one has mentioned a word about Lion & Dragon, or you. Such a tragic oversight! Isn't it strange that no one else has seen how so much of Shadowdark's innovation and briliance has come from Lion & Dragon? How come someone didn't explain to her--or why didn't she realise that so much of Shadowark's greatness and inspiration can be found in Lion & Dragon? Why isn't Lion & Dragon her topmost source of inspiration? Why hasn't Kelsey talked about how RPG Pundit has been her greatest mentor and inspiration?
Interesting to think about!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I think a lot of the enthusiasm for the "innovative" mechanics that have already shown up in other OSR games are coming from people who are primarily in 5E sphere. The OSR is a niche within a niche after all. It isn't that surprising that some normies haven't heard of them before.
As a Brit I have to say that I enjoy sustained sarcasm ;) It does, however, make me want to take a look at Lion & Dragon.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on April 05, 2023, 04:52:58 AM
I think a lot of the enthusiasm for the "innovative" mechanics that have already shown up in other OSR games are coming from people who are primarily in 5E sphere. The OSR is a niche within a niche after all. It isn't that surprising that some normies haven't heard of them before.
Good point. I've run one SD session for my 5e group and, although, in general, they seemed to enjoy it I received some resistance on the more OSRy parts of the system. "3d6 straight down the line? But I might end up with a useless character!" "Lose my spell on first failure?? But I might not be able to cast that spell at all this session!"
Quote from: Persimmon on April 04, 2023, 06:47:41 PM
Finally, as someone else noted, it does seem that if some rando cis white guy designed the game instead of a frumpy, middle-aged lesbian, there would be somewhat less exaggerated hype. Maybe, I'm wrong there but I don't think so.
"Frumpy, middle-aged lesbian"? Classy.
Quote from: S'mon on March 22, 2023, 04:39:40 PM
Forbes endorses Shadowdark
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2023/03/16/shadowdark-looks-back-at-dungeon-crawls-with-an-eye-to-the-future/amp/
Hey if Chinese commies like it, I'm out.
Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 05:00:48 AM
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on April 05, 2023, 04:52:58 AM
I think a lot of the enthusiasm for the "innovative" mechanics that have already shown up in other OSR games are coming from people who are primarily in 5E sphere. The OSR is a niche within a niche after all. It isn't that surprising that some normies haven't heard of them before.
Good point. I've run one SD session for my 5e group and, although, in general, they seemed to enjoy it I received some resistance on the more OSRy parts of the system. "3d6 straight down the line? But I might end up with a useless character!" "Lose my spell on first failure?? But I might not be able to cast that spell at all this session!"
Welcome to the OSR where your first level PC is not a god, not a hero, they are barely one foot on the path to greatness and everything is out to kill them so resource management now become tied to survival.
as for the class roles: "no 14? Do a reroll of all" worked for me as well as the Inverted21 rule (take all scores minus 21, thats your new value). You can always do 4d6 drop lowest Kelsey even states that wont break the game either.
Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2023, 04:41:32 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 05, 2023, 04:03:30 AM
Quote from: blackstone on April 03, 2023, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 01, 2023, 01:36:43 PM
Quote from: blackstone on March 30, 2023, 03:22:50 PM
I can't help to think when it comes to critics of Shadowdark, that there might be a tinge of jealousy involved.
A bit of "God dammit! Why didn't I think of that!" sort of thing.
I perused the quick start rules. Sure, not everything there is original.
The presentation is good, clear, concise.
Artwork is definitely within the OSR style.
she used her connections within the industry, which btw there is NOTHING wrong in doing so, to spread the word. Anyone who has any business sense would do the same thing.
She got great traction from many online reviewers (YouTube for example) and IIRC recognition from Forbes magazine doesn't hurt.
Now the Kickstarter is done and she raised more than $1 million.
So, I ask you again, all of the critics and detractors: could you by some small chance be a LITTLE jealous?
What would I have to be jealous about? Again, raising ONE MILLION sure seems like a lot, but that's gross not net, and depending on what she promised and how careful she was, after you deduct all the various costs, she MIGHT end up earning more in that kickstarter than I'll earn this year. Since she seems to be pretty well-advised, she probably will. A lot of less organized people making those numbers will not (the Coyote & Crow guy, for example, who made ONE MILLION and is now bankrupt).
But I'll be making my money, and more, over and over again every year. No fancy Kickstarters needed, just making good product for real gamers.
According to interviews, Kelsey claims that SD took 3 years to create. So remove KS's cut, all the other people she has to pay, the printing and delivery costs, and then divide what's left by three: that's what she earned "per year" for this. She would have to be very organized and meticulous for that per-year earning number to reach six figures.
P.S. Once again, this past month broke the record as my biggest earning month of all time. Something that's happening every two or three months lately.
RPGPundit, I think that's great for your situation. Believe me, if you can make a living at RPG design, that's awesome.
What I'm saying is some of the negative comments by the detractors are not much more than strawman arguments. They're not critiquing the rules themselves. They arguments are based upon "this is nothing new" or "it's just repackaged blah-blah-blah". Again, if anyone has any negative comments based upon the rules playability, then I willing to listen. Otherwise, those detractors do sound a bit on the jealous side.
I have no dog in this "fight". I'm just saying my point of view.
I've repeatedly stated that I think that the rules seem to be good. I mean, how could I argue otherwise given that almost all of the rules that are "innovative" about Shadowdark are in Lion & Dragon?
Greetings!
That is a strange coincidence, Pundit! It is a mystery, in her videos and from others, she openly has talked about creative influences and mentors that have had considerable influence on her, as a gamer and as a game designer--she's talked about RUNEHAMMER, Professor DM, DCC, OD&D, amongst others...but never *once* has she or anyone else amongst the YouTubers/Reviewers--that have all reviewed Shadowdark--have even mentioned you or Lion & Dragon.
Various reviewers have discussed clear influences from OD&D, DCC, ICRPG, 5E, but no one has mentioned a word about Lion & Dragon, or you. Such a tragic oversight! Isn't it strange that no one else has seen how so much of Shadowdark's innovation and briliance has come from Lion & Dragon? How come someone didn't explain to her--or why didn't she realise that so much of Shadowark's greatness and inspiration can be found in Lion & Dragon? Why isn't Lion & Dragon her topmost source of inspiration? Why hasn't Kelsey talked about how RPG Pundit has been her greatest mentor and inspiration?
Interesting to think about!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The creator is a homosexual women, but hasn't used that fact to advertise her game or call people who don't support it bigots. I think she just doesn't want to play identity politics.
Sure many have pointed out there are similarities with pundit's work, but nobody is calling for her head.
BUT, imagine if she said she took inspiration for Lion and Dragon. The wokists would have her drawn and quartered in a millisecond.
Now that the Kickstarter is done, the backers must've gotten their .pdf files.
So how is it looking backers?
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 05, 2023, 09:47:59 AM
Now that the Kickstarter is done, the backers must've gotten their .pdf files.
So how is it looking backers?
I'll copy and paste the Kickstarter update. TLDR: Waiting for funds to clear from KS, then backerkit, and out goes all the PDFs. ETA: 2 weeks.
I was "wrong" about the Automatically at the end of KS being sent out. "After payments have cleared" SHOULD have been the correct answer. mea culpa
Quote
We Did It!
We funded, and we did it in jaw-dropping fashion!
$1.3 million dollars is a number I never thought I'd be writing. Jessee and I thank you all so much from the bottom of our hearts.
It's been the most awe-inducing experience of my career to see the incredible amount of support and excitement coming from the Shadowdark RPG community!
Jessee has been holding down the fort as I recover from a bit of exhaustion, lost voice, and Gary Con crud (nothing serious, thankfully). I'm back in full action today!
I've been so busy this past month that I didn't get a lot of time to sit down and think about what this community has accomplished. But the last day or two has given me a brief pause to really consider how big of a deal this Kickstarter is, and what it means.
In just 30 days, all 13,249 of us have done something few thought possible in this industry. We took an indie game that I thought would be lucky to fund at $10,000 and turned it into a movement that sees the beauty in both new and old game design.
It's a dream come true! It moves me emotionally just to write about it. To see such a show of respect and love for the history of our game, and optimism for the future of our hobby -- I think this is going to mark a consequential moment in the TTRPG history books.
Thank you, backers, for being the ones to make it happen!
What's Next?
I'm sure you've been receiving lots of Kickstarter-generated emails about funding, card charges, and any changes needed to forms of payment.
I didn't want to bombard, but I also am kick(starter)ing myself a bit for deciding to wait to send this update!
I know folks are curious about what's next, so without further delay, I want to share our next order of operations:
1. Kickstarter is processing payments. This should take about two weeks, and I'll be able to send out PDFs to backers as soon as this completes! I'm just as eager to get the PDFs to everyone as I'm sure you are to receive them, so this will feel longer than it is. But I hope you can forgive the wait as we let things process the way they're supposed to!
2. Backerkit will let you alter your pledge. We're currently setting up Backerkit (our pledge manager) to allow you as much flexibility as possible in changing your pledge, adding add-ons, and allowing digital-only backers to add physical rewards (this isn't possible via Kickstarter, but it is for Backerkit).
I'm working with the Backerkit Team to make sure we're being meticulous and setting all this up correctly. I'll send out updates about when we'll have it ready to go -- I expect it will be right around the time Kickstarter clears payments, so about two weeks!
3. We will get your shipping address closer to the shipping date. We'll use Backerkit to send out surveys about your shipping address and to process shipping costs closer to the date we're ready to fulfill. That makes pricing more accurate for everyone!
Stay Tuned
I'll keep the updates coming now that I'm recovered and back with our next steps! Don't hesitate to ask questions in the mean time.
Thanks for being patient with the glut of emails you've potentially received about this project in the past week. I hope it hasn't been too much.
The best part is yet to come! I am so excited to get Shadowdark into your hands and to your gaming table!
-Kelsey
As for the Zines that have been released very much enjoying the ninja class, poison mechanics, and some of the alternative casters. The ability to create classes allowed us to whip up all the class/sub-class combo's our group is playing easily enough. It is a modular system at it's core.
Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 05:03:52 AM
"Frumpy, middle-aged lesbian"? Classy.
Aren't they literally the ambassadors of leftist ideology?
Quote from: Brad on April 05, 2023, 09:57:33 AM
Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 05:03:52 AM
"Frumpy, middle-aged lesbian"? Classy.
Aren't they literally the ambassadors of leftist ideology?
You mis-spelled 'Shock Troopers.'
Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 04:56:00 AM
As a Brit I have to say that I enjoy sustained sarcasm ;) It does, however, make me want to take a look at Lion & Dragon.
Greetings!
Welcome, MadMattUK! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 05:03:52 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 04, 2023, 06:47:41 PM
Finally, as someone else noted, it does seem that if some rando cis white guy designed the game instead of a frumpy, middle-aged lesbian, there would be somewhat less exaggerated hype. Maybe, I'm wrong there but I don't think so.
"Frumpy, middle-aged lesbian"? Classy.
Ah, I see that you are new here...
Welcome!
Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 04:56:00 AM
As a Brit I have to say that I enjoy sustained sarcasm ;) It does, however, make me want to take a look at Lion & Dragon.
Some of the mechanics the two games share are rather uncanny examples of multiple discovery/simultaneous invention...
Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 06:23:23 PM
Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 05:03:52 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on April 04, 2023, 06:47:41 PM
Finally, as someone else noted, it does seem that if some rando cis white guy designed the game instead of a frumpy, middle-aged lesbian, there would be somewhat less exaggerated hype. Maybe, I'm wrong there but I don't think so.
"Frumpy, middle-aged lesbian"? Classy.
Ah, I see that you are new here...
Welcome!
Quote from: MadMattUK on April 05, 2023, 04:56:00 AM
As a Brit I have to say that I enjoy sustained sarcasm ;) It does, however, make me want to take a look at Lion & Dragon.
Some of the mechanics the two games share are rather uncanny examples of multiple discovery/simultaneous invention...
Thanks!
Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 06:23:23 PM
Ah, I see that you are new here...
Welcome!
Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 06:23:23 PM
LOL
Some of the mechanics the two games share are rather uncanny examples of multiple discovery/simultaneous invention...
[/quote]
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.
Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.
The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)
What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.
Aside from SD using 2d6 for every class, and L&D using a single die, with the differences in bonuses types due to different system math:
It's the Exact same mechanic.
Even the way SD does its class descriptions is quiet similar to how L&D does it.
There are also lots of other similarities like a background skill table - but those similarities can be traced back to earlier games. (Like the secondary skill table in the 1e DMG.)
IMO - Those similarities are due to both games having a similar conceptual framework. Even with the differences in execution due to game focus: A more medieval authentic feel for L&D. A low-level dungeon crawl feel with SD. Both games share the concept of having vulnerable PC's with a streamlined mechanical complexity compared to 5e.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.
The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)
What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.
Aside from SD using 2d6 for every class, and L&D using a single die, with the differences in bonuses types due to different system math:
It's the Exact same mechanic.
Even the way SD does its class descriptions is quiet similar to how L&D does it.
There are also lots of other similarities like a background skill table - but those similarities can be traced back to earlier games. (Like the secondary skill table in the 1e DMG.)
IMO - Those similarities are due to both games having a similar conceptual framework. Even with the differences in execution due to game focus: A more medieval authentic feel for L&D. A low-level dungeon crawl feel with SD. Both games share the concept of having vulnerable PC's with a streamlined mechanical complexity compared to 5e.
Those all sound like skills and powers...like a book that came up with that type of mechanic oh back in the 90s that detailed functilaity like that...couldn't be that it's been done before...
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 06, 2023, 03:19:42 PM
...
Those all sound like skills and powers...like a book that came up with that type of mechanic oh back in the 90s that detailed functilaity like that...couldn't be that it's been done before...
Assuming that you are referring to the random class advancement tables L&D AND SD share.
Sounds like, yes. But not the same mechanic.
I quickly perused my Nigerian edition of S&P - class abilities there are bought via point buy, at character creation, and as they accrue points when they level.
In SD and L&D, they are always randomly rolled from a short table - and the abilities are not nearly as involved as what is offered in S&P. To me the class ability offerings in S&P come across as a proto-feat system. And a better executed one IMHO.
Where as with SD and L&D - it's literally the exact same mechanical idea.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.
The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)
What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.
A few years ago, a hack of Ben Milton's RPG
Knave, titled
Brave, had PCs roll for feat-like abilities as they level. Its not the exact same mechanic found in Shadowdark, but it is quite similar.
Quote from: Crusader X on April 06, 2023, 04:52:22 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.
The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)
What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.
A few years ago, a hack of Ben Milton's RPG Knave, titled Brave, had PCs roll for feat-like abilities as they level. Its not the exact same mechanic found in Shadowdark, but it is quite similar.
So Knave copied L&D, that was released in 2017 then? Knave came out in 2018.
Brave came out in 2019?
https://knightattheopera.blogspot.com/2019/11/brave-10-my-knave-hack.html
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 06, 2023, 04:58:54 PM
Quote from: Crusader X on April 06, 2023, 04:52:22 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.
The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)
What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.
A few years ago, a hack of Ben Milton's RPG Knave, titled Brave, had PCs roll for feat-like abilities as they level. Its not the exact same mechanic found in Shadowdark, but it is quite similar.
So Knave copied L&D, that was released in 2017 then? Knave came out in 2018.
Brave came out in 2019?
https://knightattheopera.blogspot.com/2019/11/brave-10-my-knave-hack.html
Maybe the Brave author was influenced by L&D
Maybe the Brave author came up with the idea on his own
Maybe Kelsey was influenced by L&D
Maybe Kelsey was influenced by Brave
Maybe Kelsey was influenced by a Pokemon game. Like she stated.
Lots of maybes there! Based on everything I've seen, I'll go with the last one.
Maybe I'm right. Maybe I'm wrong. More maybes!
Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.
The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)
What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.
Aside from SD using 2d6 for every class, and L&D using a single die, with the differences in bonuses types due to different system math:
It's the Exact same mechanic.
Even the way SD does its class descriptions is quiet similar to how L&D does it.
There are also lots of other similarities like a background skill table - but those similarities can be traced back to earlier games. (Like the secondary skill table in the 1e DMG.)
IMO - Those similarities are due to both games having a similar conceptual framework. Even with the differences in execution due to game focus: A more medieval authentic feel for L&D. A low-level dungeon crawl feel with SD. Both games share the concept of having vulnerable PC's with a streamlined mechanical complexity compared to 5e.
Thx. I think you're right. Once you decide "in my TTRPG game characters will get a randomly determined ability when leveling up" then a table and a die roll are almost inevitable. And tables are setting - an excellent tool for reinforcing a particular tone or genre.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 03:41:08 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 06, 2023, 03:19:42 PM
...
Those all sound like skills and powers...like a book that came up with that type of mechanic oh back in the 90s that detailed functilaity like that...couldn't be that it's been done before...
Assuming that you are referring to the random class advancement tables L&D AND SD share.
Sounds like, yes. But not the same mechanic.
I quickly perused my Nigerian edition of S&P - class abilities there are bought via point buy, at character creation, and as they accrue points when they level.
In SD and L&D, they are always randomly rolled from a short table - and the abilities are not nearly as involved as what is offered in S&P. To me the class ability offerings in S&P come across as a proto-feat system. And a better executed one IMHO.
Where as with SD and L&D - it's literally the exact same mechanical idea.
S&P? Whachu talkin bout Willis?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 06, 2023, 06:17:54 PM
S&P? Whachu talkin bout Willis?
(https://media.tenor.com/3DgAhqhRKPsAAAAM/face-palm-shaking-my-head.gif)
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons®
Player's Option™:
Skills & Powers Book
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/51jNM+cXuGL._AC_UF350,350_QL50_.jpg)
Basically converts AD&D to a point buy system. It has lots of listings for race and class abilities. It's a good resource to
steal *cough* be inspired by for homebrew...
Quote from: Crusader X on April 06, 2023, 04:52:22 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 06, 2023, 01:51:43 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 06, 2023, 11:32:54 AM
Examples? I know L&D is intended to be more authentic to medieval history and culture, but I don't know anything about the specific mechanics.
The main one being the class advancement table. (Going by the SD quick start.)
What Shadowdark calls its class talent table, and Lion and Dragon calls its Benefit table.
A few years ago, a hack of Ben Milton's RPG Knave, titled Brave, had PCs roll for feat-like abilities as they level. Its not the exact same mechanic found in Shadowdark, but it is quite similar.
As far as I can tell "brave" (which is very obscure and I certainly never heard of it) dates back to around 2019?
Whereas the rules in Lion & Dragon first appeared in more basic format as Appendix P of Dark Albion, so they date to 2015.
Stuff Shadowdark has that L&D already had:
-much more basic XP system
-random benefit tables for leveling
-no resurrection magic
-critical tables(? I'm trying to remember if it has this or not)
-Random background tables
-spell rolls for magic
-simplified encumbrance system
Apart from real-time torches, I haven't yet heard of an "innovation" in Shadowdark that wasn't also in L&D
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 07, 2023, 12:55:58 AM
Stuff Shadowdark has that L&D already had:
-much more basic XP system
-random benefit tables for leveling
-no resurrection magic
-critical tables(? I'm trying to remember if it has this or not)
-Random background tables
-spell rolls for magic
-simplified encumbrance system
Apart from real-time torches, I haven't yet heard of an "innovation" in Shadowdark that wasn't also in L&D
Well, the answer is thus obvious: Pundit needs to transition and make a million dollars on a Kickstarter for his new recycled rules-set.
A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.
That being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.
For any given thing in a design, there are typically a handful of good ways to handle it, several more that will work if maybe not as well, and a lot of bad ways. Any design that is play tested is going to converge on some of the better options, naturally.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 07, 2023, 08:42:46 AM
A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.
I never saw that book. The inspiration for L&D spell rolls for me was DCC.
QuoteThat being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.
Yup. She claims she got it from a Pokemon game but I've heard other people say that said game doesn't even have random advancement.
Did anyone get the .pdf's yet? I am anxious to hear/read about this game in its completeness.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 09, 2023, 02:34:18 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 07, 2023, 08:42:46 AM
A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.
I never saw that book. The inspiration for L&D spell rolls for me was DCC.
QuoteThat being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.
Yup. She claims she got it from a Pokemon game but I've heard other people say that said game doesn't even have random advancement.
It sort of does. To make a long story short, pokemon stat growth is based on multiple controlled and random factors, certain pokemon have better growth compared to other pokemon of the same type. The difference is all this is decided before you catch the pokemon. The controlled factors being that which pokemon you fight will influence the pokemon's stat growth. Apparebtly it used to be even more convoluted.
Quote from: Slambo on April 09, 2023, 05:47:25 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 09, 2023, 02:34:18 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 07, 2023, 08:42:46 AM
A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.
I never saw that book. The inspiration for L&D spell rolls for me was DCC.
QuoteThat being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.
Yup. She claims she got it from a Pokemon game but I've heard other people say that said game doesn't even have random advancement.
It sort of does. To make a long story short, pokemon stat growth is based on multiple controlled and random factors, certain pokemon have better growth compared to other pokemon of the same type. The difference is all this is decided before you catch the pokemon. The controlled factors being that which pokemon you fight will influence the pokemon's stat growth. Apparebtly it used to be even more convoluted.
Is this even an RPG?? Or are you just talking about the video game?
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 10, 2023, 02:56:44 PM
Is this even an RPG?? Or are you just talking about the video game?
Pokemon Red and Blue, the nintendo Gameboy game.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 10, 2023, 02:56:44 PM
Quote from: Slambo on April 09, 2023, 05:47:25 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 09, 2023, 02:34:18 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 07, 2023, 08:42:46 AM
A spell roll system very similar to L&D (with DC for rolls based on Spell Level) already existed in Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Player's Guide from 2004. So technically every d20/D&D derived game that has that copied it from them. Though, I technically came up with a similar concept (exact same DC table) on my own shortly before I got the book, so I know it's possible to come up with shit without lifting it from someone else.
I never saw that book. The inspiration for L&D spell rolls for me was DCC.
QuoteThat being said I did think of L&D the first time I saw SD's class advancement random table, cuz the types of benefits gained are very similar to L&D's, to the point where its harder for me not to think the author got it from there. In the case of spell rolls DC tables its easier for multiple people to come up with the same table on their own, cuz the table simply follows the same DC progression used for most d20 games, but swapping spell levels for difficult ratings. But getting bonuses to specific types of rolls or certain abilities instead of standard level progression benefits is kind of a L&D specific thing that's not immediately apparent you could do from just looking at existing D&D rulesets. Still, it might be possible to come up with it without lifting it, cuz it has happened to me before with other ideas.
Yup. She claims she got it from a Pokemon game but I've heard other people say that said game doesn't even have random advancement.
It sort of does. To make a long story short, pokemon stat growth is based on multiple controlled and random factors, certain pokemon have better growth compared to other pokemon of the same type. The difference is all this is decided before you catch the pokemon. The controlled factors being that which pokemon you fight will influence the pokemon's stat growth. Apparebtly it used to be even more convoluted.
Is this even an RPG?? Or are you just talking about the video game?
The pokemon video game. I do know to two fan polemon ttrpgs but i dont think they incorporate these mechanics
I belong to the Shadowdark Facebook group, and I have to admit that I am starting to become annoyed with the many, many posts by people who seem to have never heard of the OSR and seem to believe that Shadowdark was created out of nothing.
This is not to criticize the creator of Shadowdark, and also it maybe validates the opinion that Shadowdark might reach new people to bring into the OSR universe. I feel bad for making my observation, but I still find many of these Shadowdark fans very annoying at their complete lack of knowledge concerning the context of the game and the hobby.
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 10, 2023, 04:20:15 PM
I belong to the Shadowdark Facebook group, and I have to admit that I am starting to become annoyed with the many, many posts by people who seem to have never heard of the OSR and seem to believe that Shadowdark was created out of nothing.
This is not to criticize the creator of Shadowdark, and also it maybe validates the opinion that Shadowdark might reach new people to bring into the OSR universe. I feel bad for making my observation, but I still find many of these Shadowdark fans very annoying at their complete lack of knowledge concerning the context of the game and the hobby.
I bet every single one of the people who have not heard of the OSR have only played 5E or maybe Pathfinder.
Quote from: Malaky on April 10, 2023, 04:22:06 PM
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 10, 2023, 04:20:15 PM
I belong to the Shadowdark Facebook group, and I have to admit that I am starting to become annoyed with the many, many posts by people who seem to have never heard of the OSR and seem to believe that Shadowdark was created out of nothing.
This is not to criticize the creator of Shadowdark, and also it maybe validates the opinion that Shadowdark might reach new people to bring into the OSR universe. I feel bad for making my observation, but I still find many of these Shadowdark fans very annoying at their complete lack of knowledge concerning the context of the game and the hobby.
I bet every single one of the people who have not heard of the OSR have only played 5E or maybe Pathfinder.
Thisx1000
Critical Role doesn't do OSR, Big Bang Theory doesn't do OSR, Shadowdark doesn't look like the game the kids in Stranger Things were playing, ergo you get the bafflement by people who have played this game for decades vs those that only consume What's Current.
It's like folks who have lived in a house their entire lives finally realized they can go outside and there is so much more to see than the 4 walls...
The best thing you can do is to show them good non-woke products by authors who value you their customers instead of preaching to them. Guide them on their path to OSR-litenment
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 10, 2023, 05:02:48 PM
Quote from: Malaky on April 10, 2023, 04:22:06 PM
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 10, 2023, 04:20:15 PM
I belong to the Shadowdark Facebook group, and I have to admit that I am starting to become annoyed with the many, many posts by people who seem to have never heard of the OSR and seem to believe that Shadowdark was created out of nothing.
This is not to criticize the creator of Shadowdark, and also it maybe validates the opinion that Shadowdark might reach new people to bring into the OSR universe. I feel bad for making my observation, but I still find many of these Shadowdark fans very annoying at their complete lack of knowledge concerning the context of the game and the hobby.
I bet every single one of the people who have not heard of the OSR have only played 5E or maybe Pathfinder.
Thisx1000
Critical Role doesn't do OSR, Big Bang Theory doesn't do OSR, Shadowdark doesn't look like the game the kids in Stranger Things were playing, ergo you get the bafflement by people who have played this game for decades vs those that only consume What's Current.
It's like folks who have lived in a house their entire lives finally realized they can go outside and there is so much more to see than the 4 walls...
The best thing you can do is to show them good non-woke products by authors who value you their customers instead of preaching to them. Guide them on their path to OSR-litenment
Amen. How does someone discover the OSR if it's only for people who already know about the OSR? There's an odd possessiveness in the OSR community that works to keep it smaller than it could be.
New Update Landed. PDFs soonish plus late pledges for more books
Quote
Greetings, Shadowdark RPG Backers!
I've been accumulating lots of exciting updates for us this past week, and I finally have all the information pinned down and ready to share!
Surveys + PDF Delivery
As a Kickstarter backer, you'll soon be getting an emailed survey so we can collect important information about your pledge, including your shipping address and any add-ons or changes you want to make to your pledge.
TL;DR: It's very important that you please answer this survey so you can get your Shadowdark RPG PDFs and we can collect your shipping info (if needed).
Backerkit also allows you to change your pledge to a totally different tier or add additional items, if you want to! That includes being able to add physical items if you were a digital-only pledge -- something that was not possible on Kickstarter.
You don't need to set up a Backerkit account or do anything besides follow the emailed link and fill out the survey.
We're planning to begin our "smoke test" for surveys this Friday (April 14), which means 5% of backers will receive the survey. We'll make sure there are no hiccups or snags, and then we'll send the survey to everyone else!
I anticipate everyone will receive their survey starting Monday, April 17.
And once you complete your Backerkit survey, you'll get access to all your PDFs! :D
(Don't worry if you'll be moving soon -- go ahead and still fill out the survey. You'll be able to update your answers later if your shipping addresses changes, or if you want to update something about your previous responses. We'll send out reminders.)
Stretch Goals
It's time to get cracking on stretch goals! We have a mini-adventure to write, two new classes to build, and a YouTube series on solo gameplay with Shadowdark RPG!
I want to bring everyone into the creative process as much as possible, so we're planning YouTube livestreams for the mini-adventure and the process of creating the Ranger and Bard classes.
The solo gameplay show will be pre-recorded to cut out the massive stretches of dead air as I think ponderously about randomly rolled results, so more on that later.
Here are the currently scheduled livestreams (with more to come):
Community Dungeon!
Ranger Class Design
Shipping
As we mentioned on the Kickstarter pledges, we're going to charge shipping closer to the actual fulfillment date as a separate transaction.
That helps keep shipping prices accurate, and also allows us to deliver your PDFs right away instead of having to wait until the orders are "complete" with shipping information attached!
Finally, this gives us plenty of time to carefully build out accurate shipping charges for around the world with the lowest possible prices + best delivery service in mind.
How this works:
1. Backers with physical products will need to provide payment information in the Backerkit pledge manager survey due out in a few days, even if they do not select any add-ons, so that we can process shipping cost payments when the time comes.
Those backers may find a pre-authorization when adding their card information.
But don't worry! We're not charging for shipping until later, and you'll get several notices beforehand. We won't charge you for shipping without giving you a chance to review it.
2. When the time to charge for shipping arrives this summer, we'll send an email to all backers with shipping balances letting them know that in 48 hours, we'll charge their cards for shipping costs.
Backers can contact backer support if they do not wish to be charged, and they can also access their order to update their payment information.
Late Pledges
We're going to open up late pledges next week!
Backerkit again amazes us with its wondrous options, including allowing folks who missed out on the main Kickstarter to flap into the stingbat cave with the rest of us.
I hope to have this live by Tuesday or Wednesday of next week (April 18th or 19th). Stand by for an update when late pledges open up!
Thanks Again
Thank you once again, backers, for being so encouraging, supportive, and excited for Shadowdark RPG! Never hesitate to ask any questions as things move along.
We'll have more updates in the coming weeks, including some special treats (I simply can't let Monster Monday go the way of the dinosaur, it was too much fun)!
-Kelsey
On the discord. PDF's coming on Monday:
Quote
We're planning to begin our "smoke test" for surveys this Friday (April 14), which means 5% of backers will receive the survey. We make sure there are no hiccups or snags, and then we'll send the survey to everyone else!
I anticipate everyone will receive their survey starting Monday, April 17.
And once you complete your Backerkit survey, you'll get access to all your PDFs! :D
3 session After Play report.
Group of 10 players in skills ranging from: Never played a TTRPG to 30years of experience in multiple systems.
Average gaming experience of particpants: 10 years
Particpants: 4 women, 6 men
All rules, race, classes used from quickstart and 2 from Cursed Scroll (Assassian and Pit Fighter).
TLDR: Similar to 5e with most of the overhead removed. Very Flexible System for both DM and Players
Setup: First and Second session had new players from prior sessions. Each started out with creating a PC and went through the rules. 3rd session had 2 new people and they had their PC's pregenerated for them. I explained the rules before events happened with a bit of a preview of things to come in game. Most grasped the rules right away who had played 5e before.
First adventure started with a Tavern meet and greet with a Mr. Johnson (ShadowrunYO!), to get the McGuffin, boats leaving soon. As my groups refuse to anything linear they decided to look for a gambling house in which (random generators later) they came to an undgerground casino that had a bubble room dedidcated to lobster pit fighting. Bets were had and Clawdius the black reigned supreme. Fast forward to the ship leaving, bit of social skills rolls all using stats straight away, combat with some underwater zombies to run through combat and land on the island where the module at the back of the GM Quickstart takes place.
Now here's where things run completely off the rails as expected with my crew of absolute derailing degenerates (love them one and all..mostly).
Explain the light mechanics, 30' view, monsters can see in the dark, monsters will go after the light bearer, Real Time 1hr timer, and off they go. They decide to literally kick in the door of this giant stone temple, 2 in 6 chance for encounter as they brute force the door. Dark mantles appear and head for the light bearing cleric, snuff that out, drop a player, before all being killed. An NPC is present in the room hiding (Ettercap I changed into Spider/Goblin hybrid), is in the book saying "COWARDLY, DISLOYAL". The Diplomat of the group have him roll 2d6 for Reaction check, gets a 12 and they are now mostly Best Friends Forever. The party explains they are here to kill the Red Devil and a bright red Gem, SpiderGoblin agrees to take them to his leader. Fast forward through more skill rolls and a wary party before the leader of the Spidergoblins(ettercaps), always on iniative all players are wondering how badly doomed they are as the Diplomat has they 3 rooms deep inside a cave all with many eyed critters eyeing them and the way out coated in webs. Reaction Check roll with Council of Spidergoblins: 2. initial NPC's head pops off in a geyser of blue/black blood Council now suspicious and demand to know why the party is here. Diplomat rolls CHA: Natural 20 and smoothly deflects to "We would love to help rid this place of the Red Devil as long as we can keep this item we are looking for in the process." Haggling a bit and the 2 sides agree to ally. Hand wave a legion of mutated goblin/spider creatures telling the party to "Everything here is ours, do not interfere" and move to the End Boss in which i again narrate both sides trapping and killing the thing as it had a giant Red gem in it's chest the party wants. PC's take the gem and head out quicklike as the Spider goblins are now partying like it's 1999 in this tomb of treasure and return to the ship. End Scene
Notes: I understand that in the module certain things MAY or MAY NOT do things I stated which is fine. Great rolls and Great Roleplaying allow rules to bend a bit. The ettercaps are Chaotic but that doesn't mean they are stupid. If there's a way for them to claim dominance over this whole area vs the Beastmen (i made them goblins) they'd take it and betray the group at their first oppertunity. The battle took a toll on the Ettercaps and they were not in a place to kill the party out right due to losses but they had enough forces to keep all the loot and watch the party go off on their own. That FELT like a fitting understanding of the Ettercaps.
Session 2 and 3: Some new players joined, some couldn't make it, this one had a person who'd never played any RPG before.
Ran through some exposition and more skill rolls involving the lost homeland of a Minotaur Prince who used the gem the PC's found to guide him to his ancestral homeland. Some players tried to explore the ship more and 1 died from a trap on the captains door. In this next part I ran 2 modules from Eleven Tower (https://www.patreon.com/elventower/posts) : The Planar Gateway and Val's Underground Garden. Tying them both together for a longer story arch the torch timers came in handy here as they ran out of torches multiple times and it was quite dark with random encounters. Two players died from pit traps and one from failing a Con check for trying to re-engineer a power battery. A single monsters vs. multiple PC's shows you can throw a higher level boss monster that is higer in "level" than the players and it scales just fine with the rules in the GM's quickstart of Monster Level vs. Number of Players/Level. Much easier than trying to figure out CR or ECL...
Everyone had fun and the second and third game went smoother, new player enjoyed her time and would love to try this again. I showed her the 5e Player sheet and she said "No thanks, that's far too much to keep track of." She's right, Shadowdark has a single page sheet (2 for casters really) and everything you need is on that one page to game with.
In Conclusion: Shadowdark is the happy blend of 5e and OSR that I've been wanting to use for myself and my players. The rules strip out that have bloated up the game since 2E (skills, specializations, saves), 3e-5e (feats, skills, saves, attunement, etc) and boils the rules down very nicely with simple DC (9,12,15,18), more focus on PC's doing/knowing what they do best, and the always on initative and torch timer introduce player agency and some tension.
Is it perfect? No. Are we going to house rule a bunch? Absolutely, and it's super easy, barely an inconvience to do so. The rules are very modular and you can see how things are broken down to make your own monster, class, race, etc.
If you are looking for a ruleset that will bridge the mindset of 5e with an OSR-feel then Shadowdark can scratch that itch.
New update on the pdfs and the slight delay...
QuoteGreetings, Shadowdark RPG backers!
I hope everyone had a wonderful weekend! :)
I have an update for us about surveys (which haven't been sent out yet, so don't worry if you thought you missed it). Here's the news:
1. Paying Backerkit! I got the Kickstarter funds (yay!), but my bank didn't allow me to wire any of it to Backerkit on Friday (not yay). In order to proceed with the Backerkit surveys, I need to have my bills paid with them.
Thankfully, I rose with the dawn to assail the bank's dark fortress the moment their hellish, iron gates re-opened for banking hours. After much struggle, I triumphed. Backerkit should be paid by the end of the day today!
2. Review and Smoke Test! Once Backerkit is paid, they'll allow me to submit our survey for review. This usually takes 1-2 business days.
When Backerkit says we're good to go, I'll launch the smoke test that was originally planned for Friday. A random set of 5% of backers from each tier will get the survey and their PDFs.
Once 60% of them have responded, Backerkit will allow me to send surveys and PDFs to everyone else.
3. Surveys and Emails! My best guess is we'll be ready to send all surveys + PDFs between Tuesday and Thursday of this week, depending on how long all of the above takes.
I know folks were worried about missing the email, but don't be! I'll post numerous updates on here, social media, and via email when they're live, especially as we encourage stragglers to respond in the coming weeks. :)
4. Preorder Store! It will go live the same day the surveys are sent to all backers. So, by my most reasonable guess, between Tuesday and Thursday of this week.
Thanks, everyone, for your patience as we get all the little gremlins defeated. I'm excited to get surveys out, get those PDFs into your hands, and get our YouTube livestreams spun up in the coming days!
-Kelsey
PDF's are out. Books up for preorder now.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 02:10:16 PM
PDF's are out. Books up for preorder now.
Compared to the quickstart how much is in the full thing?
Quote from: Slambo on April 21, 2023, 02:11:06 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 02:10:16 PM
PDF's are out. Books up for preorder now.
Compared to the quickstart how much is in the full thing?
Player and GM quickstarts are 68 pages each. Main pdf of the book is 332 pages. So about 196 pages more of stuff, adjust for repeat pages in the QSs like covers, credits, etc.
Quote from: Slambo on April 21, 2023, 02:11:06 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 02:10:16 PM
PDF's are out. Books up for preorder now.
Compared to the quickstart how much is in the full thing?
Both DM and Player QS was about 120 pages combined. This is pdf is over 300+.
all the monsters, all the spells upto tier 5, etc. a considerable amount more off content such as randomly creating monsters on the fly, tons of random tables.
Let me post the index
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 02:43:51 PM
Quote from: Slambo on April 21, 2023, 02:11:06 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 02:10:16 PM
PDF's are out. Books up for preorder now.
Compared to the quickstart how much is in the full thing?
Both DM and Player QS was about 120 pages combined. This is pdf is over 300+.
all the monsters, all the spells upto tier 5, etc. a considerable amount more off content such as randomly creating monsters on the fly, tons of random tables.
Let me post the index
Thank you.
Sounds like Leopold and his crew had fun, and that's what really matters.
I thought that no creature had "night vision", was I misinformed, or was that rule changed from the QuickStart set?
What lead me to this thread (and to reading—mostly—thirty-seven pages of comments) was the aforementioned weirdness of the hype for Shadowdark.
One YouTuber was even saying that the author is now the "king" of OSR—that whatever designers preceded her only wish they could sit where she now reposes. Something to that effect, and that is the sort of attitude that causes a thirty-seven (and counting) page thread.
Because it isn't true.
Now, one of the best explanations for the hype that I've seen in this thread is that a lot of 5e players are being exposed to old school style play. That isn't true of, say, Professor DM, but his channel appeals to 5e players as well as those who like earlier editions and non-D&D games. So, when he says, "you're going to love this game", my initial reaction is, "you ain't the boss o' me", but then I remember that he is addressing other people.
On the other hand, I am a conspiracy theorist, and when I see something like the same guy winning the lottery multiple times using the same exact numbers, I get suspicious. So, I understand the resistance by some to the idea(s)that
1. the hype for this game is organic, based on how amazing the rules are
and/or
2. the hype is a result of the author's mad marketing skills and networking acumen.
If Professor DM and the rest had said, "We have a friend who has written these rules that we think you are going to enjoy using at your table. They are a mixture of new school and old school rules, so we think you are going to feel comfortable whatever your gaming tradition. Here are some of the features we liked..." then, there probably wouldn't be a thirty-seven (and counting) page thread.
Instead, it was "this is sliced bread for D&D, and I was literally stunned for 2d4 rounds after reading them!"
The rules seem fine. The hype is what is suspicous.
Quote from: cavalier973 on April 21, 2023, 06:18:21 PM
Sounds like Leopold and his crew had fun, and that's what really matters.
1. I thought that no creature had "night vision", was I misinformed, or was that rule changed from the QuickStart set?
What lead me to this thread (and to reading—mostly—thirty-seven pages of comments) was the aforementioned weirdness of the hype for Shadowdark.
2. One YouTuber was even saying that the author is now the "king" of OSR—that whatever designers preceded her only wish they could sit where she now reposes. Something to that effect, and that is the sort of attitude that causes a thirty-seven (and counting) page thread.
Because it isn't true.
Now, one of the best explanations for the hype that I've seen in this thread is that a lot of 5e players are being exposed to old school style play. That isn't true of, say, Professor DM, but his channel appeals to 5e players as well as those who like earlier editions and non-D&D games. So, when he says, "you're going to love this game", my initial reaction is, "you ain't the boss o' me", but then I remember that he is addressing other people.
On the other hand, I am a conspiracy theorist, and when I see something like the same guy winning the lottery multiple times using the same exact numbers, I get suspicious. So, I understand the resistance by some to the idea(s)that
1. the hype for this game is organic, based on how amazing the rules are
and/or
2. the hype is a result of the author's mad marketing skills and networking acumen.
If Professor DM and the rest had said, "We have a friend who has written these rules that we think you are going to enjoy using at your table. They are a mixture of new school and old school rules, so we think you are going to feel comfortable whatever your gaming tradition. Here are some of the features we liked..." then, there probably wouldn't be a thirty-seven (and counting) page thread.
Instead, it was "this is sliced bread for D&D, and I was literally stunned for 2d4 rounds after reading them!"
3. The rules seem fine. The hype is what is suspicous.
1. No PLAYER CHARACTER has nightvision/darkvision/infravision. PC's can't see shit in the dark. Monsters all have darkvision. Bring a Torch.
2. Kelsey would deny that statement and laugh at how ridiculous that sounds. She give credit where credit is due to those that came before. She's happy people are excited to try Old School Ideas and to share her work that she spent years making. That's the vibe I get from the Acrane Library discord where she speaks to everyone.
3. People wanted something different and the marketing and social media presence paid off. Shadowdark came at the right place at the right time and hit all the buttons people were looking for in something that is NOT WOTC/5E related. The author was approachable and knowledgable and had a following from earlier 5E hits. Combine all that together and you have a recipe for success.
We are slowly moving our 5E game to a version of Shadowdark rules that we can integrate with our much larger tactical type play. We have a good months worth of work ahead of us and many more playtests to iron things out. Our goal is to be off of 5E/DNDBeyond by Q3/23.
I remember what I heard, now; if a monster joins the party, the it loses its night vision ability.
Have lots of fun!
It seems that, if failure to gain a "14" in some ability score triggers a reroll of character abilities, one might try rolling 2d6 and adding 6 to the total for each ability.
Greetings!
YAY! SHADOWDARK has dropped on me now! Fucking outstanding!
And OOH RAH!!!
Geesus, the game is delicious. I love how it remains easy, and simple, and straightforward. It is also fucking SWEET how when I have been reviewing the three Cursed Scroll Zines, each of them includes more rules for climate and travel, new spells, newclasses, new weapons and gear, as well as new monsters.
And--there are always more awesome fucking random tables of stuff.
All of these optional elements really combine to make the basic game *deep*. I am thrilled with contemplating creating new adventures, locations, and more using all of these elements!
The Cursed Scrolls, geesus, are awesome! Cursed Scroll (1) talks about Witches, Warlocks, Demons, and Witchcraft. Cursed Scroll (2) talks about Desert environments, Desert tribes, weird Desert Assassins, and fucking cool Camels. Silver-furry Camels! Cursed Scroll (3) talks about Nordic Sea Raiders! Vikings, baby! Seers, Sea Raiders, sea travel, cold weather, and fucking OLD NORSE Paganism! All kinds of weird curses and Norns spinning fate, and fucking awesome OATHS!
Add all this sweetness to the huge main rulebook, oh, DAYUM!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: cavalier973 on April 21, 2023, 06:52:26 PM
I remember what I heard, now; if a monster joins the party, the it loses its night vision ability.
Have lots of fun!
It seems that, if failure to gain a "14" in some ability score triggers a reroll of character abilities, one might try rolling 2d6 and adding 6 to the total for each ability.
Well that's a bit odd for a monster to do but it makes sense since it'll be surrounded by light sources constantly.
3d6 straight down the line is the standard.
You have the OPTIONAL RULE that if you don't get a 14 in a single stat you can, if your DM allows it, to reroll all the stats. We did the Inverse21 rule where you can take 21-Roll which gives all sorts of wild numbers the opposite way. Few different ways to do the same thing.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 07:34:13 PM
3d6 straight down the line is the standard.
You have the OPTIONAL RULE that if you don't get a 14 in a single stat you can, if your DM allows it, to reroll all the stats. We did the Inverse21 rule where you can take 21-Roll which gives all sorts of wild numbers the opposite way. Few different ways to do the same thing.
My system uses 3d6 straight down the line. I monkeyed around with all kinds of ways to reroll or compensate for horrible rolls while still keeping the heart of that. What I ended up with that works really well is:
3d6 straight down the line. Swap any two stats. If you have no score above a 14, set your highest to 14.
Easy to explain, easy to understand, simple to do. Gives the player 1 decision with meaning. So far, it has seemed to take a tiny bit of the edge off of really horrible rolls. I have no idea if that lines up well with the Shadowdark rules, but given the close match on the surface, thought I'd toss it out there for your house rule consideration.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 06:44:17 PM
3. People wanted something different and the marketing and social media presence paid off. Shadowdark came at the right place at the right time and hit all the buttons people were looking for in something that is NOT WOTC/5E related.
I think that is a huge factor. WoTC's malevolence, greed & incompetence has created the perfect off-ramp for people to try other games. Without it I'd probably not have looked at Dragonbane and got hooked. I can see why people would go for Shadowdark, and why they'll go for the new Critical Role game, the new Kobold Press game, et al.
Quote from: cavalier973 on April 21, 2023, 06:52:26 PM
I remember what I heard, now; if a monster joins the party, the it loses its night vision ability.
Yeah, that is strange. Goblin is a PC race in Shadowdark. So a Goblin PC can't see in the dark, but a Goblin non-PC can? Is there any explanation for that in the rules?
Quote from: S'mon on April 22, 2023, 03:18:06 AM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 06:44:17 PM
3. People wanted something different and the marketing and social media presence paid off. Shadowdark came at the right place at the right time and hit all the buttons people were looking for in something that is NOT WOTC/5E related.
I think that is a huge factor. WoTC's malevolence, greed & incompetence has created the perfect off-ramp for people to try other games. Without it I'd probably not have looked at Dragonbane and got hooked. I can see why people would go for Shadowdark, and why they'll go for the new Critical Role game, the new Kobold Press game, et al.
While I think that the game would likely have been a success regardless, it's certainly possible that some of its margin of success was due to having shown up at a great time for people looking for alternatives to WotC D&D.
Quote from: Crusader X on April 22, 2023, 06:30:20 AM
Quote from: cavalier973 on April 21, 2023, 06:52:26 PM
I remember what I heard, now; if a monster joins the party, the it loses its night vision ability.
Yeah, that is strange. Goblin is a PC race in Shadowdark. So a Goblin PC can't see in the dark, but a Goblin non-PC can? Is there any explanation for that in the rules?
Only thing I've found is that the monsters don't actually have dark vision. According to the RAW:
QuoteDARK-ADAPTED
All non-humanoid monsters are dark-adapted. Their powerful senses allow them to ignore the penalties of total darkness (see pg. 84). Blinding or deafening a monster still hinders it.
Quote from: Crusader X on April 22, 2023, 06:30:20 AM
Quote from: cavalier973 on April 21, 2023, 06:52:26 PM
I remember what I heard, now; if a monster joins the party, the it loses its night vision ability.
Yeah, that is strange. Goblin is a PC race in Shadowdark. So a Goblin PC can't see in the dark, but a Goblin non-PC can? Is there any explanation for that in the rules?
no and i think we all have been reading the rules wrong.
Page 189:
Quote
DARK-ADAPTED
All non-humanoid monsters are
dark-adapted. Their powerful
senses allow them to ignore the
penalties of total darkness (see
pg. 84). Blinding or deafening
a monster still hinders it.
Humanoids don't get darkvision automatically either, they need light to move around. That's not to say you can't have deep dwarves have dark vision as they've transgressed from humanoid to 'monster' status.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 06:44:17 PM
We are slowly moving our 5E game to a version of Shadowdark rules that we can integrate with our much larger tactical type play. We have a good months worth of work ahead of us and many more playtests to iron things out. Our goal is to be off of 5E/DNDBeyond by Q3/23.
Looking to do the same. In particular, I want to add in discrete movement and range instead of close, near, far. I'd be very interested to hear about your experience with that transition.
Quote from: Festus on April 25, 2023, 03:05:24 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 06:44:17 PM
We are slowly moving our 5E game to a version of Shadowdark rules that we can integrate with our much larger tactical type play. We have a good months worth of work ahead of us and many more playtests to iron things out. Our goal is to be off of 5E/DNDBeyond by Q3/23.
Looking to do the same. In particular, I want to add in discrete movement and range instead of close, near, far. I'd be very interested to hear about your experience with that transition.
Close=5' radius
Close=UPTO 30'
Far=31-120'
overall it's worked just fine. The nebulous tagging drove us nuts so we found where it states those type of ranges and repalced them with "In a 5' area around you". There are some spells that are Double Cubed Close and those needed to be redone.
Quote from: SHARK on April 21, 2023, 07:09:45 PM
Greetings!
YAY! SHADOWDARK has dropped on me now! Fucking outstanding!
And OOH RAH!!!
Geesus, the game is delicious. I love how it remains easy, and simple, and straightforward. It is also fucking SWEET how when I have been reviewing the three Cursed Scroll Zines, each of them includes more rules for climate and travel, new spells, newclasses, new weapons and gear, as well as new monsters.
And--there are always more awesome fucking random tables of stuff.
All of these optional elements really combine to make the basic game *deep*. I am thrilled with contemplating creating new adventures, locations, and more using all of these elements!
The Cursed Scrolls, geesus, are awesome! Cursed Scroll (1) talks about Witches, Warlocks, Demons, and Witchcraft. Cursed Scroll (2) talks about Desert environments, Desert tribes, weird Desert Assassins, and fucking cool Camels. Silver-furry Camels! Cursed Scroll (3) talks about Nordic Sea Raiders! Vikings, baby! Seers, Sea Raiders, sea travel, cold weather, and fucking OLD NORSE Paganism! All kinds of weird curses and Norns spinning fate, and fucking awesome OATHS!
Add all this sweetness to the huge main rulebook, oh, DAYUM!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Amen! the Cursed Scroll zines turn 300+ pages of content into 500+. The desert stuff from #2 is going to see immediate use in my game!
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 25, 2023, 03:09:32 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 25, 2023, 03:05:24 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 06:44:17 PM
We are slowly moving our 5E game to a version of Shadowdark rules that we can integrate with our much larger tactical type play. We have a good months worth of work ahead of us and many more playtests to iron things out. Our goal is to be off of 5E/DNDBeyond by Q3/23.
Looking to do the same. In particular, I want to add in discrete movement and range instead of close, near, far. I'd be very interested to hear about your experience with that transition.
Close=5' radius
Close=UPTO 30'
Far=31-120'
overall it's worked just fine. The nebulous tagging drove us nuts so we found where it states those type of ranges and repalced them with "In a 5' area around you". There are some spells that are Double Cubed Close and those needed to be redone.
So far I've also found:
half near - PC swimming/climbing is half speed
double near - e.g. MV for giants, dragons, etc.
Given the game has 5', 10', 15', 30', 60', and 120' distances as written, I'm not sure what the benefit of the tagging even is...
Quote from: Festus on April 25, 2023, 03:40:53 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 25, 2023, 03:09:32 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 25, 2023, 03:05:24 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 21, 2023, 06:44:17 PM
We are slowly moving our 5E game to a version of Shadowdark rules that we can integrate with our much larger tactical type play. We have a good months worth of work ahead of us and many more playtests to iron things out. Our goal is to be off of 5E/DNDBeyond by Q3/23.
Looking to do the same. In particular, I want to add in discrete movement and range instead of close, near, far. I'd be very interested to hear about your experience with that transition.
Close=5' radius
Close=UPTO 30'
Far=31-120'
overall it's worked just fine. The nebulous tagging drove us nuts so we found where it states those type of ranges and repalced them with "In a 5' area around you". There are some spells that are Double Cubed Close and those needed to be redone.
So far I've also found:
half near - PC swimming/climbing is half speed
double near - e.g. MV for giants, dragons, etc.
Given the game has 5', 10', 15', 30', 60', and 120' distances as written, I'm not sure what the benefit of the tagging even is...
They are aiming for more Theatre of the Mind and less tactical.
This is one of the weaker areas of Shadowdark : consistency
This topic is getting way too many posts in a forum devoted to the OSR. I'm very disappointed in you guys.
I'm reading the rulebook at the moment. So far I like it a lot. Full assessment when I've finished it.
For me, this is an ORS game with some newer 5e stuff added. And not the other way around. But YMMV.
EDIT: As I said before I had the game, I'm not mad about the 'timer' countdown in real time for torches. Because I find real-time and meta-time during a game too fiddly. But I like the whole darkness thing and will definitely use it more as a concept for adding pressure to PC than i ever did before.
One other thing. I'm not mad about is rolling random encounters at very 'specific' intervals. But that's an old-school thing. I didn't like it back in the day as I always prefer to plan my encounters. Not a criticism per se more of a personal play style.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 25, 2023, 10:18:28 PM
I'm reading the rulebook at the moment. So far I like it a lot. Full assessment when I've finished it.
For me, this is an ORS game with some newer 5e stuff added. And not the other way around. But YMMV.
EDIT: As I said before I had the game, I'm not mad about the 'timer' countdown in real time for torches. Because I find real-time and meta-time during a game too fiddly. But I like the whole darkness thing and will definitely use it more as a concept for adding pressure to PC than i ever did before.
One other thing. I'm not mad about is rolling random encounters at very 'specific' intervals. But that's an old-school thing. I didn't like it back in the day as I always prefer to plan my encounters. Not a criticism per se more of a personal play style.
Rolling for encounters is something I do for wilderness travel mostly (rare exception the players decided to explore a cave/dungeon/ruin/tower they found after chasing squirrels), my DM of my AD&D2e campaign does the same.
But for the most part it's planed.
Quote from: Timothe on April 25, 2023, 09:54:41 PM
This topic is getting way too many posts in a forum devoted to the OSR. I'm very disappointed in you guys.
Oh snap.
Shut er down boys!
So now that it's simmered a while, what's the consensus? From what I've heard and seen, it appears to be a collection of mechanics from various OSR games and 'zines, put the in a hard back with a slip case (which I don't get. I like boxed sets, but do you need a box if it's just a single book?) with some nice black and white art.
My real question is does it have staying power. Seeing as how the creator made a name for herself writing modules, it will probably get some first party support, but I feel like people who like the OSR bits will stay with or move onto games that a more true to the source material, and the 5E fans will move back to 5E (if they ever really left).
Only time will tell, I suppose.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on April 30, 2023, 11:34:10 AM
So now that it's simmered a while, what's the consensus? From what I've heard and seen, it appears to be a collection of mechanics from various OSR games and 'zines, put the in a hard back with a slip case (which I don't get. I like boxed sets, but do you need a box if it's just a single book?) with some nice black and white art.
My real question is does it have staying power. Seeing as how the creator made a name for herself writing modules, it will probably get some first party support, but I feel like people who like the OSR bits will stay with or move onto games that a more true to the source material, and the 5E fans will move back to 5E (if they ever really left).
Only time will tell, I suppose.
Id say check back in a year for full results and to see who has made products for it 3pp help keep new games alive and this is the New Shiney on the block. Her licensing is modeled off Mork Borg so its very open and flexible.
Will it eclipse 5e? Hell no. PF or OSE? Perhaps give them a run for their money by 2025.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on April 30, 2023, 11:34:10 AM
So now that it's simmered a while, what's the consensus? From what I've heard and seen, it appears to be a collection of mechanics from various OSR games and 'zines, put the in a hard back with a slip case (which I don't get. I like boxed sets, but do you need a box if it's just a single book?) with some nice black and white art.
My real question is does it have staying power. Seeing as how the creator made a name for herself writing modules, it will probably get some first party support, but I feel like people who like the OSR bits will stay with or move onto games that a more true to the source material, and the 5E fans will move back to 5E (if they ever really left).
Only time will tell, I suppose.
No slip case as I recall. Just a hardback book, but with add ons/stretch goals for 3 issues of her zine, GM screen, pre-made character sheets with art, etc. It's a beefy sucker tho - 300+ pages and the zines 64 pages each. So well over 500 pages of material overall with half a dozen dungeons/adventures.
DriveThru already has about 60 products listed as designed for Shadowdark by folks other than the creator. So I don't think support is an issue. Whether that pace is
sustainable, let alone likely to increase ... well as THE_Leopold says time will tell.
I have now played 2 separate Shadowdark sessions with players who, up to now, have almost exclusively played 5e. After some initial grumbling about the down the line character generation they came to appreciate the possibility of characters having significant flaws and the danger of going unconscious with one hit. Both of these are characteristics that I would associate with the OSR and that are generally lacking in 5e.
A good time was had by all and I have been asked to run some more.
Quote from: MadMattUK on May 02, 2023, 05:23:07 PM
I have now played 2 separate Shadowdark sessions with players who, up to now, have almost exclusively played 5e. After some initial grumbling about the down the line character generation they came to appreciate the possibility of characters having significant flaws and the danger of going unconscious with one hit. Both of these are characteristics that I would associate with the OSR and that are generally lacking in 5e.
A good time was had by all and I have been asked to run some more.
Easiest fix in the world: 4d6 drop the lowest arrange to suit. It would make no difference in actual play at the table.
In my opinion; 3d6 down the line is more of an OSR street cred thing than some secret ingredient essential to OSR play.
If you're going to do 3d6 down the line it should be on an OD&D chassis, with just a +1 modifier for 14 or higher, and otherwise nothing else. Then the stats are just roleplaying inspiration. Or a system like Castles & Crusades where the primary attribute system means mediocre stats aren't much of a hindrance.
But the moment you go for a standard system with B/X or worse 3.x modifiers, rolling down the line is a terrible idea.
Quote from: migo on May 02, 2023, 06:26:04 PM
If you're going to do 3d6 down the line it should be on an OD&D chassis, with just a +1 modifier for 14 or higher, and otherwise nothing else. Then the stats are just roleplaying inspiration. Or a system like Castles & Crusades where the primary attribute system means mediocre stats aren't much of a hindrance.
But the moment you go for a standard system with B/X or worse 3.x modifiers, rolling down the line is a terrible idea.
Either 3d6 down the line (or something similarly random) because part of the game is "playing the hand you're dealt" or point buy because the design is to build whatever character you can imagine. To me anything in between fails at both design goals without adding much value. It's just mitigating player dissatisfaction.
Quote from: Festus on May 04, 2023, 03:24:58 PM
Either 3d6 down the line (or something similarly random) because part of the game is "playing the hand you're dealt" or point buy because the design is to build whatever character you can imagine. To me anything in between fails at both design goals without adding much value. It's just mitigating player dissatisfaction.
It's interesting how much tastes vary.
For me; it's the in-between method of 4d6 drop lowest + arrange to suit, that appeals most.
You're probably not gonna get anything outright bad, but probably not your absolute ideal either - so you have to make a value judgement of what kind of PC you want to play given what you have.
It avoids the situation where a player's PC class is entirely dictated by the dice, and as a GM I don't have to put up with any point-buy wankery during PC generation.
One man's features are another mans Bugs...
A question for those of you that bought this thing:
I remember there being some discussion in the various previews for the game about the idea that "the Shadowdark" was more than just underground places without ambient light. I.e., that it was some kind of metaphysical or cosmic force that exerted an influence on the game world, and impose special rules (maybe something like the torchlight/darkness mechanic in Darkest Dungeon). I thought that looked like being the game's one unique selling point, but didn't see anything about it in the Quickstart. Is there anything in the full book?
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 09, 2023, 05:32:28 PM
A question for those of you that bought this thing:
I remember there being some discussion in the various previews for the game about the idea that "the Shadowdark" was more than just underground places without ambient light. I.e., that it was some kind of metaphysical or cosmic force that exerted an influence on the game world, and impose special rules (maybe something like the torchlight/darkness mechanic in Darkest Dungeon). I thought that looked like being the game's one unique selling point, but didn't see anything about it in the Quickstart. Is there anything in the full book?
I don't see any of that kind of Cosmic Entity that is in the book that would qualify under that type of 'game mechanic' . There are a handful of gods that for the various alignments such as "The Lost" may be what you are thinking of. the gods are all flavor text no crunch with them.
I really like her writing style based on the QuickStart.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 09, 2023, 06:09:33 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 09, 2023, 05:32:28 PM
A question for those of you that bought this thing:
I remember there being some discussion in the various previews for the game about the idea that "the Shadowdark" was more than just underground places without ambient light. I.e., that it was some kind of metaphysical or cosmic force that exerted an influence on the game world, and impose special rules (maybe something like the torchlight/darkness mechanic in Darkest Dungeon). I thought that looked like being the game's one unique selling point, but didn't see anything about it in the Quickstart. Is there anything in the full book?
I don't see any of that kind of Cosmic Entity that is in the book that would qualify under that type of 'game mechanic' . There are a handful of gods that for the various alignments such as "The Lost" may be what you are thinking of. the gods are all flavor text no crunch with them.
I wish I could remember whose video it was that gave me that idea. Oh well, at least that saves me $60. Guess I'll go off and write those rules myself.
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 09, 2023, 05:32:28 PM
A question for those of you that bought this thing:
I remember there being some discussion in the various previews for the game about the idea that "the Shadowdark" was more than just underground places without ambient light. I.e., that it was some kind of metaphysical or cosmic force that exerted an influence on the game world, and impose special rules (maybe something like the torchlight/darkness mechanic in Darkest Dungeon). I thought that looked like being the game's one unique selling point, but didn't see anything about it in the Quickstart. Is there anything in the full book?
I got ya:
Quote from: Darkbad
The Darkbad
The Darkbad is dark and bad. It is an underworld, and kind of mythic. One could call it the legendary belowground. It is full of darkness.
Quote from: Darkbad
The Darkbad
The Darkbad is dark and bad. It is an underworld, and kind of mythic. One could call it the legendary belowground. It is full of darkness.
I find this to be WeakLame.
Quote from: rytrasmi on May 09, 2023, 08:03:33 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 09, 2023, 05:32:28 PM
A question for those of you that bought this thing:
I remember there being some discussion in the various previews for the game about the idea that "the Shadowdark" was more than just underground places without ambient light. I.e., that it was some kind of metaphysical or cosmic force that exerted an influence on the game world, and impose special rules (maybe something like the torchlight/darkness mechanic in Darkest Dungeon). I thought that looked like being the game's one unique selling point, but didn't see anything about it in the Quickstart. Is there anything in the full book?
I got ya:
Quote from: Darkbad
The Darkbad
The Darkbad is dark and bad. It is an underworld, and kind of mythic. One could call it the legendary belowground. It is full of darkness.
Funny enough, that's actually what reminded me about it. I assumed Darkbad was explicitly riffing on something in Shadowdark.
Quote from: rytrasmi on May 09, 2023, 08:03:33 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 09, 2023, 05:32:28 PM
A question for those of you that bought this thing:
I remember there being some discussion in the various previews for the game about the idea that "the Shadowdark" was more than just underground places without ambient light. I.e., that it was some kind of metaphysical or cosmic force that exerted an influence on the game world, and impose special rules (maybe something like the torchlight/darkness mechanic in Darkest Dungeon). I thought that looked like being the game's one unique selling point, but didn't see anything about it in the Quickstart. Is there anything in the full book?
I got ya:
Quote from: Darkbad
The Darkbad
The Darkbad is dark and bad. It is an underworld, and kind of mythic. One could call it the legendary belowground. It is full of darkness.
This thing sounds like silly baby talk. I'm embarrassed that someone even thought to include that in a serious RPG.
And Shadowdark doesn't even sound that bad—kinda catchy. But "The Darkbad"? C'mon! And "the legendary belowground"? Does this chick even know how to come up with names for game locations and such, or expressions used to refer to them?
It's from a parody. See the other thread. I should have been clearer.
A good parody rings true, so...
Quote from: rytrasmi on May 09, 2023, 10:08:43 PM
It's from a parody. See the other thread. I should have been clearer.
A good parody rings true, so...
Ah, that makes more sense! I haven't been following the other thread. Barely followed this one for the last couple of pages.
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 09, 2023, 05:32:28 PM
A question for those of you that bought this thing:
I remember there being some discussion in the various previews for the game about the idea that "the Shadowdark" was more than just underground places without ambient light. I.e., that it was some kind of metaphysical or cosmic force that exerted an influence on the game world, and impose special rules (maybe something like the torchlight/darkness mechanic in Darkest Dungeon). I thought that looked like being the game's one unique selling point, but didn't see anything about it in the Quickstart. Is there anything in the full book?
All of the quotes below are in the free quickstart rules:
"The Shadowdark is any place
where danger and darkness hold
sway. It clutches ancient secrets
and dusty treasures in its rotting
claws, daring fortune seekers to
tempt their fates."
Examples given include "buried ruins, lost cities, spider-infested forests, and even fearsome dragon lairs"
Another quote: "At times the Shadowdark seemed sentient in its malevolence. It was as though some hand guided it."
So it's not a specific place like the Forgotten Realms' Underdark. Nor is it a thing per se. As I read it, the Shadowdark is more of a game style.
I caved last night and bought in.
Is it revolutionary? No.
Is it a solid ruleset for a beer and pretzels game? Yes. It's nothing that someone couldn't do on their own, but as a package it seems very playable, easy to teach and a good middle ground between b/x and 5e that tosses the things I hate from 5e.
Quote from: shoplifter on May 10, 2023, 09:54:47 AM
I caved last night and bought in.
Is it revolutionary? No.
Is it a solid ruleset for a beer and pretzels game? Yes. It's nothing that someone couldn't do on their own, but as a package it seems very playable, easy to teach and a good middle ground between b/x and 5e that tosses the things I hate from 5e.
Shadowdark is an evolutionary product and ruleset. It's a tightly packed ruleset with very terse writing that does exactly as you say: rips away the chuft of 5e and brings those rules that are familiar to 5e in a package that is very OSR-like.
I was able to teach someone that has never played a TTRPG , barely heard of D&D before she met me, and she was able to jump in and play a level 2 cleric through a 4hr multi-part adventure with skill checks, combat, Role-playing, etc. I showed her the 5E PC sheet and she said "That's too much, no thanks".
We are redoing the SD PC Sheet because we need more areas to put in other fiddly bits that we found lacking: spells, actions (free/reaction), and more space for talents and skills
I took a look at the blurb and briefly glanced at some quickstart material. I got the sense that this was supposed to be a real time sensitive game requiring quick action before the torchlight runs out. The equipment has torches & lanterns cheaply available, so what prevents adventurers from just lighting another one? I guess I don't get how the time sensitive gimmick is supposed to work. Has anyone who has has read the material more thoroughly got an idea of how this is supposed to work?
Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 10, 2023, 10:18:53 AM
I took a look at the blurb and briefly glanced at some quickstart material. I got the sense that this was supposed to be a real time sensitive game requiring quick action before the torchlight runs out. The equipment has torches & lanterns cheaply available, so what prevents adventurers from just lighting another one? I guess I don't get how the time sensitive gimmick is supposed to work. Has anyone who has has read the material more thoroughly got an idea of how this is supposed to work?
Gear slots: You have 10+STR modifier if positive. Everything takes equipment slots which you'll read in the quickstart under "GEAR"
Quote
GEAR SLOTS
You can carry a number of items equal to your Strength stat or 10,
whichever is higher.
Unless noted, all gear besides typical clothing fills one gear slot.
Gear that is hard to transport might fill more than one slot.
Every item takes up one or more slots. A single torch, lamp, flask of oil? All one slot each. Your wizard with 8 strength with rations, a staff, some magical potions? They aren't packing 20+ torches.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 10, 2023, 10:20:56 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 10, 2023, 10:18:53 AM
I took a look at the blurb and briefly glanced at some quickstart material. I got the sense that this was supposed to be a real time sensitive game requiring quick action before the torchlight runs out. The equipment has torches & lanterns cheaply available, so what prevents adventurers from just lighting another one? I guess I don't get how the time sensitive gimmick is supposed to work. Has anyone who has has read the material more thoroughly got an idea of how this is supposed to work?
Gear slots: You have 10+STR modifier if positive. Everything takes equipment slots which you'll read in the quickstart under "GEAR"
Quote
GEAR SLOTS
You can carry a number of items equal to your Strength stat or 10,
whichever is higher.
Unless noted, all gear besides typical clothing fills one gear slot.
Gear that is hard to transport might fill more than one slot.
Every item takes up one or more slots. A single torch, lamp, flask of oil? All one slot each. Your wizard with 8 strength with rations, a staff, some magical potions? They aren't packing 20+ torches.
Thanks. So it sounds like an an adventurer with typical gear starts at or close to full capacity. How does that work with treasure? Are players supposed to ditch all of their armor & equipment to carry any treasure?
Greetings!
Oh yeah! ShadowDark is *awesome*!!! I love how simple and quick everything in the system is, and the brutal grittiness. Most Characters are typically not going to be carrying more than two or three torches, max. Having the lights go out means you are fucked. Darkness, absolutely blind, Disadvantage on everything. That means you are pretty much doomed to suffer fast and hard, and die quickly.
So, yeah, I know the mechanic and the dynamic seems stupidly simple--and it is--but it really does establish the dynamic of limited resources, and brutal consequences, while highlighting the group's ever-present consciousness of limited light, and the driving need for speed. The wonderful Gear Slot rules are HARD CODED. As the GM, you want to stay away from space and resource hand-wavers for the party. Maintaining that HARD CODED Gear Slot dynamic bleeds into not just precious light resources, but everything else as well, like food and water, other essential supplies, and that doesn't account for also somehow keeping space available for *Treasure*. These CASCADE EFFECTS serve to really put a giant BOOT in the player's asses, and dramatically changes how the party goes about doing things.
ShadowDark really does take a giant, Viking AXE to all of the 5E BABY FAT and cuts it away entirely, and in ruthless and brutal fashion. I love how ShadowDark just *DESTROYS* the entire 5E framework of making Player Characters fucking *Super-Heroes*. That is all gone, baby. The Player Characters get to wake up in a whole new reality.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 10, 2023, 10:38:51 AM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 10, 2023, 10:20:56 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 10, 2023, 10:18:53 AM
I took a look at the blurb and briefly glanced at some quickstart material. I got the sense that this was supposed to be a real time sensitive game requiring quick action before the torchlight runs out. The equipment has torches & lanterns cheaply available, so what prevents adventurers from just lighting another one? I guess I don't get how the time sensitive gimmick is supposed to work. Has anyone who has has read the material more thoroughly got an idea of how this is supposed to work?
Gear slots: You have 10+STR modifier if positive. Everything takes equipment slots which you'll read in the quickstart under "GEAR"
Quote
GEAR SLOTS
You can carry a number of items equal to your Strength stat or 10,
whichever is higher.
Unless noted, all gear besides typical clothing fills one gear slot.
Gear that is hard to transport might fill more than one slot.
Every item takes up one or more slots. A single torch, lamp, flask of oil? All one slot each. Your wizard with 8 strength with rations, a staff, some magical potions? They aren't packing 20+ torches.
Thanks. So it sounds like an an adventurer with typical gear starts at or close to full capacity. How does that work with treasure? Are players supposed to ditch all of their armor & equipment to carry any treasure?
Greetings!
Hi, Exploderwizard! As I alluded to in my previous commentary, concerning treasure, yeah, very much so, my friend. Depending on the Character's Strength score, carrying treasure is a HUGE dilemma. TOUGH CHOICES need to be made, some sooner, and some later. Essential requirements do not really ever go away, like armour, weapons, food, torches, all that stuff takes of Gear Slots, which you always need, going into dangerous places--and also seeking to get out, and make it back to civilization. Somehow making room for treasure...yeah, definitely some risks involved, risk assessment, and hard choices!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 10, 2023, 10:38:51 AM
Thanks. So it sounds like an an adventurer with typical gear starts at or close to full capacity. How does that work with treasure? Are players supposed to ditch all of their armor & equipment to carry any treasure?
Same Gear section: 100 coins=1 gear slot. You aren't carrying 1000coins and a full backpack of torches, weapons, rations, etc. unless you are a Fighter who gets bonus' for carrying things.
Do you need those 3 extra days of food/water, that 50' of rope, or that chest packed in riches. Make your Choice ---Jigsaw
Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 10, 2023, 11:05:40 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 10, 2023, 10:38:51 AM
Thanks. So it sounds like an an adventurer with typical gear starts at or close to full capacity. How does that work with treasure? Are players supposed to ditch all of their armor & equipment to carry any treasure?
Same Gear section: 100 coins=1 gear slot. You aren't carrying 1000coins and a full backpack of torches, weapons, rations, etc. unless you are a Fighter who gets bonus' for carrying things.
Do you need those 3 extra days of food/water, that 50' of rope, or that chest packed in riches. Make your Choice ---Jigsaw
Tough choices are good!
Bring retainers and try not to get them killed if they are carrying all the torches, food, and loot. If they do get killed, then decide which of the torches, food, and loot are most important.
Does SD encourage retainers and followers?
Quote from: rytrasmi on May 10, 2023, 11:17:32 AM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 10, 2023, 11:05:40 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 10, 2023, 10:38:51 AM
Thanks. So it sounds like an an adventurer with typical gear starts at or close to full capacity. How does that work with treasure? Are players supposed to ditch all of their armor & equipment to carry any treasure?
Same Gear section: 100 coins=1 gear slot. You aren't carrying 1000coins and a full backpack of torches, weapons, rations, etc. unless you are a Fighter who gets bonus' for carrying things.
Do you need those 3 extra days of food/water, that 50' of rope, or that chest packed in riches. Make your Choice ---Jigsaw
Tough choices are good!
Bring retainers and try not to get them killed if they are carrying all the torches, food, and loot. If they do get killed, then decide which of the torches, food, and loot are most important.
Does SD encourage retainers and followers?
There are no explicit rules for either retainers or followers which would more than likely be 0-level NPC's of some sort.
You do get titles when you level up which COULD indicate you gete retainers or followers. That's upto you and the DM.
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 09, 2023, 09:18:07 PM
Funny enough, that's actually what reminded me about it. I assumed Darkbad was explicitly riffing on something in Shadowdark.
Darkbad is explicitly riffing on
everything in Shadowdark. Like it packs a lot of satire into just a few pages. The "roll for ethnicity" table is just a matrix of punchlines, each better than the last.
It's really excellent work. The grandest piece is probably the final page, but the best point about Shadowdark is IMO the magic table. Critical fumbles, an idea that can be done correctly but almost never are, applied in a way much more brutal than "you stab yourself with your sword", and mocked very well with that table.
I backed the physical edition yesterday and after digging through the pdf I'm pretty happy with my decision. Now I just gotta hope the book gets here ASAP because I it looks gorgeous and there's just something about digest sized ttrpg books that I love.
Arcane Library appears by all amounts to not have any public woke bullshit. No "inclusivity" nonsense shoehorned in. And after watching some of Kelsey's videos, she seems like a genuinely pleasant person and knows what she's talking about.
Outclassed by Darkbad (https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1681/44/1681442754133065.pdf) which is free and took only a day to make!
Quote from: Monero on June 11, 2023, 02:04:51 AM
Arcane Library appears by all amounts to not have any public woke bullshit. No "inclusivity" nonsense shoehorned in. And after watching some of Kelsey's videos, she seems like a genuinely pleasant person and knows what she's talking about.
It's going to depend on the community around the game as well. I'm actually dealing with a situation right now that's given me a bit of pause, though I'm going to hold out and see how it goes before I discuss it here. Note this is a local issue, and NOT a situation involving Arcane Library or the greater internet community around the game as a whole. Just wanted to make that clear before anyone jumps to any conclusions.
Quote from: bendis on June 12, 2023, 06:54:29 AM
Outclassed by Darkbad (https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1681/44/1681442754133065.pdf) which is free and took only a day to make!
LOL!
Mr Welch just did a video on Shadowdark. He reviewed it fairly. And like me and many others was left scratching his head as to why so many praised it when it is at best average. Give the video a watch. I quite enjoyed his critique of the rules.
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 17, 2023, 10:12:46 AM
Mr Welch just did a video on Shadowdark. He reviewed it fairly. And like me and many others was left scratching his head as to why so many praised it when it is at best average. Give the video a watch. I quite enjoyed his critique of the rules.
Because a terrifying percentage of humans are easily manipulated.
(https://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music128/v4/5e/cf/72/5ecf7249-e692-a809-f102-c7ed3d78427b/source/600x600bb.jpg)
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 17, 2023, 10:12:46 AM
Mr Welch just did a video on Shadowdark. He reviewed it fairly. And like me and many others was left scratching his head as to why so many praised it when it is at best average. Give the video a watch. I quite enjoyed his critique of the rules.
I usually like Mr Welch's videos, but this review is a big fail. He's reviewing some old beta version of the game. The actual finished game is quite different from what he's reviewing.
He criticizes the game for not having a table of contents. The game does have a table of contents.
He criticizes the game for not having spears. The game does have spears.
He criticizes the game for longswords doing d6 damage. Longswords in this game do d8 damage.
He criticizes the game for not having Kobolds, Gnolls, or Golems in the monster section. The game does have Kobolds, Gnolls, and Golems in the monster section.
So if for some odd reason you're planning on playing an old, outdated beta version of Shadowdark, this review might be helpful. But if you're going to play the actual finished game that gets released, many of the criticisms in this video simply don't apply.
So; whatever. Isn't still just someone's house rules? Never found it remotely interesting and still don't. Nothing one can't already do with any number of retroclones or the original game. But if turning off the lights after an hour and calling it "realistic" is your jam, have at it.
And those who criticize Mr. Welch for critiquing the Beta rules clearly didn't listen to the video. Several times he offers caveats that the version he has may be different from the final version. This has no effect on the utter boring mediocrity of this derivative game, however.
Quote from: Crusader X on August 17, 2023, 06:26:48 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 17, 2023, 10:12:46 AM
Mr Welch just did a video on Shadowdark. He reviewed it fairly. And like me and many others was left scratching his head as to why so many praised it when it is at best average. Give the video a watch. I quite enjoyed his critique of the rules.
I usually like Mr Welch's videos, but this review is a big fail. He's reviewing some old beta version of the game. The actual finished game is quite different from what he's reviewing.
He criticizes the game for not having a table of contents. The game does have a table of contents.
He criticizes the game for not having spears. The game does have spears.
He criticizes the game for longswords doing d6 damage. Longswords in this game do d8 damage.
He criticizes the game for not having Kobolds, Gnolls, or Golems in the monster section. The game does have Kobolds, Gnolls, and Golems in the monster section.
So if for some odd reason you're planning on playing an old, outdated beta version of Shadowdark, this review might be helpful. But if you're going to play the actual finished game that gets released, many of the criticisms in this video simply don't apply.
I was asked if I would like to review the game. I agreed, I was sent the version I reviewed. I can only talk about what I was provided. I used the same book that several other reviewers also had on their channel. I did like the game, but I felt it was too safe in the rules. If you are teaching people how to play an RPG for the first time, it's great. It's not complicated, uses tried and true methods that are found in other systems, and doesn't have too many rules. In that niche, it serves its purpose well. It doesn't offer much long-term, similar to the Dragon Age RPG, but this cuts the game short at 10 levels rather than dragging it out to 20. It borrowed heavily from DCC in that regard, without all the specialty dice. The author put on a masterclass in marketing and had the good fortune of promoting a game while WOTC was in the middle of a nuclear meltdown. It might not stand far apart from other OSR titles, but it might very well be the luckiest in terms of release schedule. Don't interrupt your opponent when they're making a mistake.
My biggest critique was the sameness of the game compared to other similar titles. It makes for a competent game, just not a memorable one. Though I stand by everything I said about banded mail.
Quote from: TheGlen on August 17, 2023, 10:00:52 PM
Quote from: Crusader X on August 17, 2023, 06:26:48 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 17, 2023, 10:12:46 AM
Mr Welch just did a video on Shadowdark. He reviewed it fairly. And like me and many others was left scratching his head as to why so many praised it when it is at best average. Give the video a watch. I quite enjoyed his critique of the rules.
I usually like Mr Welch's videos, but this review is a big fail. He's reviewing some old beta version of the game. The actual finished game is quite different from what he's reviewing.
He criticizes the game for not having a table of contents. The game does have a table of contents.
He criticizes the game for not having spears. The game does have spears.
He criticizes the game for longswords doing d6 damage. Longswords in this game do d8 damage.
He criticizes the game for not having Kobolds, Gnolls, or Golems in the monster section. The game does have Kobolds, Gnolls, and Golems in the monster section.
So if for some odd reason you're planning on playing an old, outdated beta version of Shadowdark, this review might be helpful. But if you're going to play the actual finished game that gets released, many of the criticisms in this video simply don't apply.
I was asked if I would like to review the game. I agreed, I was sent the version I reviewed. I can only talk about what I was provided. I used the same book that several other reviewers also had on their channel. I did like the game, but I felt it was too safe in the rules. If you are teaching people how to play an RPG for the first time, it's great. It's not complicated, uses tried and true methods that are found in other systems, and doesn't have too many rules. In that niche, it serves its purpose well. It doesn't offer much long-term, similar to the Dragon Age RPG, but this cuts the game short at 10 levels rather than dragging it out to 20. It borrowed heavily from DCC in that regard, without all the specialty dice. The author put on a masterclass in marketing and had the good fortune of promoting a game while WOTC was in the middle of a nuclear meltdown. It might not stand far apart from other OSR titles, but it might very well be the luckiest in terms of release schedule. Don't interrupt your opponent when they're making a mistake.
My biggest critique was the sameness of the game compared to other similar titles. It makes for a competent game, just not a memorable one. Though I stand by everything I said about banded mail.
Hey TheGlen, could I send you the beta rules of ACKS Imperial Imprint for you to do a review?
Yes I will review just about anything. Fair warning I'm seven back on thr musings right now. Trying to speed i'r up but real life keeps interfering. Contact me through my email on the the yt channel
Quote from: TheGlen on August 17, 2023, 10:59:05 PM
Yes I will review just about anything. Fair warning I'm seven back on thr musings right now. Trying to speed i'r up but real life keeps interfering. Contact me through my email on the the yt channel
While you're here, thanks for driving up interest i Mystara its my favorite official setting as well, and helped me get some of my players to play BECMI with me when i decided to stop running 5e.
Quote from: TheGlen on August 17, 2023, 10:00:52 PM
I was asked if I would like to review the game. I agreed, I was sent the version I reviewed. I can only talk about what I was provided. I used the same book that several other reviewers also had on their channel.
That's odd. Just curious, but who provided you with the version of the game that you reviewed? It doesn't seem to be the same version that other reviewers used. Ben Milton's Questing Beast channel reviewed Shadowdark five months ago. He did a flip-through of the rules back then, and you can see the game contains a table of contents in his review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqO68ZjkNgA
I also just checked out several other Shadowdark reviews on YouTube, and spears in the equipment list can be seen in multiple review flip-throughs.
I've also seen several channels review the free Shadowdark quickstart rules. Those rules also have a table of contents, they have spears in the equipment list, etc. The free quickstart rules are probably the most popular version of the game, other than the actual final product, due to them being a free, fully playable game. And Kelsey often encourages people to download those free rules to show people the game.
I don't know. I just find it odd that an old, outdated beta version of a game would be reviewed today, when newer versions are easily available. I can see a beta review being somewhat useful if the product is a long way from being finished, and the beta is the only current option. But the Shadowdark game is way past beta. Its finished. The free quickstart rules have been finished for quite awhile, and are in the wild and are being played by many. And they're free! And they seem to be a better representation of the rules than an old outdated beta version. I don't think many people in August of 2023 are looking at the old, outdated, incomplete, beta version of the rules that you reviewed.
It wasn't provided recently, I'm just that backed up. Musings take a while to write while I play the game and kick the tires. Meanwhile people keep sending me games to review. I moved this one up because of demand. I've pushed back Powers and Perils and Mutant Chronicles back several times to give precedence to donated titles. I've heard Questing Beast's video was a paid promotion and not a review.
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 07:59:55 AM
It wasn't provided recently, I'm just that backed up. Musings take a while to write while I play the game and kick the tires. Meanwhile people keep sending me games to review. I moved this one up because of demand. I've pushed back Powers and Perils and Mutant Chronicles back several times to give precedence to donated titles. I've heard Questing Beast's video was a paid promotion and not a review.
I think most of QB's reviews are paid promotions. He should change his channel name to Questing Shill or maybe Questing for Shillings.
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 07:59:55 AM
It wasn't provided recently, I'm just that backed up. Musings take a while to write while I play the game and kick the tires. Meanwhile people keep sending me games to review. I moved this one up because of demand. I've pushed back Powers and Perils and Mutant Chronicles back several times to give precedence to donated titles. I've heard Questing Beast's video was a paid promotion and not a review.
Ask Kelsey Dione, the author of Shadowdark, for a copy of the full Rules for the purposes of review and she will provide you one so yo ucan see how the product has evolved from the quickstart to the full release. You'll notice a significant amount of change.
I will try and contact her. Let me try and clear this backlog a bit first.
Quote from: Persimmon on August 18, 2023, 08:42:14 AM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 07:59:55 AM
It wasn't provided recently, I'm just that backed up. Musings take a while to write while I play the game and kick the tires. Meanwhile people keep sending me games to review. I moved this one up because of demand. I've pushed back Powers and Perils and Mutant Chronicles back several times to give precedence to donated titles. I've heard Questing Beast's video was a paid promotion and not a review.
I think most of QB's reviews are paid promotions. He should change his channel name to Questing Shill or maybe Questing for Shillings.
He's been on this board before and said that most of his videos arent paid reviews.
Quote from: Slambo on August 18, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on August 18, 2023, 08:42:14 AM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 07:59:55 AM
It wasn't provided recently, I'm just that backed up. Musings take a while to write while I play the game and kick the tires. Meanwhile people keep sending me games to review. I moved this one up because of demand. I've pushed back Powers and Perils and Mutant Chronicles back several times to give precedence to donated titles. I've heard Questing Beast's video was a paid promotion and not a review.
I think most of QB's reviews are paid promotions. He should change his channel name to Questing Shill or maybe Questing for Shillings.
He's been on this board before and said that most of his videos arent paid reviews.
And yet he's still a sniveling crap weasel so....
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 08:58:39 AM
I will try and contact her. Let me try and clear this backlog a bit first.
Having read through both versions, I doubt your overall view is going to change. Personally, I thought it was really dumb to pass out a draft for review rather than the finished product but I guess they wanted to hit the timing of WOTC self immolating.
I don't think Shadowdark is a bad product. It actually is more playable than a lot of D&D derivatives. (Recently, we did a play test.) It just feels unfinished.
Quote from: Persimmon on August 18, 2023, 12:51:22 PM
Quote from: Slambo on August 18, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on August 18, 2023, 08:42:14 AM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 07:59:55 AM
It wasn't provided recently, I'm just that backed up. Musings take a while to write while I play the game and kick the tires. Meanwhile people keep sending me games to review. I moved this one up because of demand. I've pushed back Powers and Perils and Mutant Chronicles back several times to give precedence to donated titles. I've heard Questing Beast's video was a paid promotion and not a review.
I think most of QB's reviews are paid promotions. He should change his channel name to Questing Shill or maybe Questing for Shillings.
He's been on this board before and said that most of his videos arent paid reviews.
And yet he's still a sniveling crap weasel so....
I have no dog in the fight but he's stated that if you want him to review a product, you need to send him a physical copy. If he's paid to, he'll review a PDF.
Quote from: BadApple on August 18, 2023, 12:54:45 PM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 08:58:39 AM
I will try and contact her. Let me try and clear this backlog a bit first.
Having read through both versions, I doubt your overall view is going to change. Personally, I thought it was really dumb to pass out a draft for review rather than the finished product but I guess they wanted to hit the timing of WOTC self immolating.
I don't think Shadowdark is a bad product. It actually is more playable than a lot of D&D derivatives. (Recently, we did a play test.) It just feels unfinished.
The 'review' that you are looking for is a Quickstart guide for both Players and another one for GM's. It was never meant to be anything but a "Here's something to get you started".
Reviewing Shadowdark based on the Quickstart is like reviewing Citizen Kane after the first 15min and skipping to the credits. Proclaiming it's anything BUT a quickstart is a fool's errand.
Professor DM, Questing Beast, Runehammer, and many others reviewed the full 400 page book and the Quickstart is a microcosm of what the whole book has in store. It really is smashing the PHB, DMG, and Companion's books into one tightly compact and well written piece of literature.
Quote from: BadApple on August 18, 2023, 12:54:45 PM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 08:58:39 AM
I will try and contact her. Let me try and clear this backlog a bit first.
Having read through both versions, I doubt your overall view is going to change. Personally, I thought it was really dumb to pass out a draft for review rather than the finished product but I guess they wanted to hit the timing of WOTC self immolating.
I don't think Shadowdark is a bad product. It actually is more playable than a lot of D&D derivatives. (Recently, we did a play test.) It just feels unfinished.
I normally get pdfs if I volunteer for a review. For a lot of companies they have a review copy they send out, rarely a finished product because either it's not printed yet, or they don't want to ship a hard copy for a possible review. Big problem with reviewers, some of them take freebies with a promise that they will look at it. Talking about it is another matter. I had three games lined up before Shadowdark, and it was a time sensitive review. But so was two of the three I was provided as well.
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 01:37:12 PM
Quote from: BadApple on August 18, 2023, 12:54:45 PM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 08:58:39 AM
I will try and contact her. Let me try and clear this backlog a bit first.
Having read through both versions, I doubt your overall view is going to change. Personally, I thought it was really dumb to pass out a draft for review rather than the finished product but I guess they wanted to hit the timing of WOTC self immolating.
I don't think Shadowdark is a bad product. It actually is more playable than a lot of D&D derivatives. (Recently, we did a play test.) It just feels unfinished.
I normally get pdfs if I volunteer for a review. For a lot of companies they have a review copy they send out, rarely a finished product because either it's not printed yet, or they don't want to ship a hard copy for a possible review. Big problem with reviewers, some of them take freebies with a promise that they will look at it. Talking about it is another matter. I had three games lined up before Shadowdark, and it was a time sensitive review. But so was two of the three I was provided as well.
Have you ever gone back and compared the review copy you got to the final product? How much difference do you usually see?
I have no issue with a PDF being supplied for review IF is reflects the final product. I could see it missing art, font, or other formatting improvements. Missing critical parts that make the book usable like an index or if there's a lot of change in game play material from the reviewed draft to the final product seems really sloppy to me. Personally, if I send a book out for review I want it to be what customers are getting.
I got a copy of the play test material for Shadowdark some time ago. (two years ago?) I recently got a copy of the retail release PDF and read through it. It's still the same game and it still has all the same weaknesses, most of which you pointed out in your video.
On a personal note, I like your channel. Thank you.
Normally I don't get review copies beforehand. I'm not big enough for that. The guys that get those are 10x my size. It's not just game companies, that a standard across the board. When i did theatre reviews for a local paper all my invitations to the blockbusters got lost in the mail unless the play was going to be awful then the bigger outlets weren't going to send anybody. Would I do a redux video comparing the differences? Absolutely. But I doubt I'm getting a full copy. My review got 2k views. QB video was like 260k iirc. I'm not worth the resources. Like I say, I will review any rpg. I've covered Fatal and Synnabar. I have to cover what I get sent. I don't do reviews for money, I don't advertise. There's a reason for that. It's a long story. Involves Bill Paxton and a convention burning down. That's for another time.
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 02:52:39 PM
Normally I don't get review copies beforehand. I'm not big enough for that. The guys that get those are 10x my size. It's not just game companies, that a standard across the board. When i did theatre reviews for a local paper all my invitations to the blockbusters got lost in the mail unless the play was going to be awful then the bigger outlets weren't going to send anybody. Would I do a redux video comparing the differences? Absolutely. But I doubt I'm getting a full copy. My review got 2k views. QB video was like 260k iirc. I'm not worth the resources. Like I say, I will review any rpg. I've covered Fatal and Synnabar. I have to cover what I get sent. I don't do reviews for money, I don't advertise. There's a reason for that. It's a long story. Involves Bill Paxton and a convention burning down. That's for another time.
You would be utterly surprised at how approachable and understanding of your platform that Kelsey is. Shadowdark was lightning in a bottle and Kelsey is more than willing to speak to and help other content creators with their platform as she was in their shoes once as well. All it takes is that one breakout THING and you are off to the races.
I will send her an email requesting a full version once I've finished the next preview as it's a little time sensitive
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 02:52:39 PM
I don't do reviews for money, I don't advertise. There's a reason for that. It's a long story. Involves Bill Paxton and a convention burning down. That's for another time.
I'd pay to see that movie.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 18, 2023, 03:11:19 PM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 02:52:39 PM
Normally I don't get review copies beforehand. I'm not big enough for that. The guys that get those are 10x my size. It's not just game companies, that a standard across the board. When i did theatre reviews for a local paper all my invitations to the blockbusters got lost in the mail unless the play was going to be awful then the bigger outlets weren't going to send anybody. Would I do a redux video comparing the differences? Absolutely. But I doubt I'm getting a full copy. My review got 2k views. QB video was like 260k iirc. I'm not worth the resources. Like I say, I will review any rpg. I've covered Fatal and Synnabar. I have to cover what I get sent. I don't do reviews for money, I don't advertise. There's a reason for that. It's a long story. Involves Bill Paxton and a convention burning down. That's for another time.
You would be utterly surprised at how approachable and understanding of your platform that Kelsey is. Shadowdark was lightning in a bottle and Kelsey is more than willing to speak to and help other content creators with their platform as she was in their shoes once as well. All it takes is that one breakout THING and you are off to the races.
So, you know her personally?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 18, 2023, 04:27:21 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 18, 2023, 03:11:19 PM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 02:52:39 PM
Normally I don't get review copies beforehand. I'm not big enough for that. The guys that get those are 10x my size. It's not just game companies, that a standard across the board. When i did theatre reviews for a local paper all my invitations to the blockbusters got lost in the mail unless the play was going to be awful then the bigger outlets weren't going to send anybody. Would I do a redux video comparing the differences? Absolutely. But I doubt I'm getting a full copy. My review got 2k views. QB video was like 260k iirc. I'm not worth the resources. Like I say, I will review any rpg. I've covered Fatal and Synnabar. I have to cover what I get sent. I don't do reviews for money, I don't advertise. There's a reason for that. It's a long story. Involves Bill Paxton and a convention burning down. That's for another time.
You would be utterly surprised at how approachable and understanding of your platform that Kelsey is. Shadowdark was lightning in a bottle and Kelsey is more than willing to speak to and help other content creators with their platform as she was in their shoes once as well. All it takes is that one breakout THING and you are off to the races.
So, you know her personally?
I am on their discord, have had communication with her, seen her interaction with SHARK, Tenkar, ProfesssorDM, Runehammer, and on live streams. I've had nothing but positive interaction with her multiple times and seen the way she speaks to the community at large.
Quote from: amacris on August 17, 2023, 10:35:07 PM
Hey TheGlen, could I send you the beta rules of ACKS Imperial Imprint for you to do a review?
Quote from: TheGlen on August 17, 2023, 10:59:05 PM
Yes I will review just about anything.
Sick burn! ;D
Quote from: Slambo on August 18, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on August 18, 2023, 08:42:14 AM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 07:59:55 AM
It wasn't provided recently, I'm just that backed up. Musings take a while to write while I play the game and kick the tires. Meanwhile people keep sending me games to review. I moved this one up because of demand. I've pushed back Powers and Perils and Mutant Chronicles back several times to give precedence to donated titles. I've heard Questing Beast's video was a paid promotion and not a review.
I think most of QB's reviews are paid promotions. He should change his channel name to Questing Shill or maybe Questing for Shillings.
He's been on this board before and said that most of his videos arent paid reviews.
I talked to Bruce Wayne and he said he wasn't Batman.
What I don't understand is that for weeks the full game has been available on her website but ot on drivethru. What's the logic in that?
Quote from: Ruprecht on September 05, 2023, 08:18:27 AM
What I don't understand is that for weeks the full game has been available on her website but ot on drivethru. What's the logic in that?
97% revenue stream vs. 75% revenue stream.
I get that but exposure to a lot more customers should more than make up the difference. At least in the short term before everyone forgets about shadowdark and jumps on the next big thing.
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 03:18:16 PM
I will send her an email requesting a full version once I've finished the next preview as it's a little time sensitive
I watched your updated review. Thanks.
Quote from: Ruprecht on September 05, 2023, 10:11:23 AM
I get that but exposure to a lot more customers should more than make up the difference. At least in the short term before everyone forgets about shadowdark and jumps on the next big thing.
That could depend on your marketing strategy. I think Kelsey has talked about spending a lot more time building up her own internal marketing lists, so new product basically already has her own baked in market to advertise to. I've seen a few other creators do the same as well. Once you build up enough of a marketing platform, then it seems to make sense to move to a self owned distribution platform. Though most of them do still have their product on DTRPG as well(Cypher, Savages Worlds, GURPS). But it may be that her customers aren't the typical RPG players that shop there anyway.
Quote from: BadApple on September 18, 2023, 06:15:28 PM
Quote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 03:18:16 PM
I will send her an email requesting a full version once I've finished the next preview as it's a little time sensitive
I watched your updated review. Thanks.
Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.
Bit of an older thread, but seemed relevant enough. The fact that Kelsey's discord community not only has a legit "no politics" rule, but actually enforces it is enough for me to feel like the product is at least worth a try. Recent kerfuffle with ACKS 2 has me seen several communities just ban any talk about the game, or you have people smearing Macris whenever people try to talk about the game itself. This was shot down very quickly by a mod on Kelsey's discord, and the offender banned. Happened to be the same person who made a big smear post on r/rpg and r/osr too.
I like to support people who don't hate me, even if it could be argued there's not a lot that is original in her game.
She seems smart enough to realize that regardless of her personal beliefs, allowing the discussion in the community causes nothing but problems and ends up limiting her customer base.
Quote from: shoplifter on November 07, 2023, 11:26:22 AM
She seems smart enough to realize that regardless of her personal beliefs, allowing the discussion in the community causes nothing but problems and ends up limiting her customer base.
Not telling a significant part of your customer base that you hate them is something leftists struggle with every day. The smart ones put profit over virtue signaling.
Quote from: Gooberguh on November 06, 2023, 09:52:21 PM
Recent kerfuffle with ACKS 2 has me seen several communities just ban any talk about the game, or you have people smearing Macris whenever people try to talk about the game itself. This was shot down very quickly by a mod on Kelsey's discord, and the offender banned. Happened to be the same person who made a big smear post on r/rpg and r/osr too.
Hrm, actually that is a pretty big mark in her favor. This latest push was coordinated across several reddit subcommunities and involved a swarm of socialist-posters descending and defaming, and of course both /r/RPG and /r/OSR banned all mention of Autarch, ACKS, and Macris himself (except to defame him I think?), which means the mods were either in on it, or were totally willing to surrender to it. Any place that shuts that down immediately
with a ban is pretty good.
However, if I want to discuss ACKS on Discord, like, ACKS has a Discord. I don't know much about the Shadowdark Discord- does it have a place where people discuss other games in the OSR? If there's already no mention of ACKS allowed on the server as off-topic, then they are probably just pushing out a provocateur who already technically has what he wants (no ACKS discussion allowed). But again, I don't know- I've never been to the Shadowdark Discord.
Quote from: Gooberguh on November 06, 2023, 09:52:21 PM
Bit of an older thread, but seemed relevant enough. The fact that Kelsey's discord community not only has a legit "no politics" rule, but actually enforces it is enough for me to feel like the product is at least worth a try. Recent kerfuffle with ACKS 2 has me seen several communities just ban any talk about the game, or you have people smearing Macris whenever people try to talk about the game itself. This was shot down very quickly by a mod on Kelsey's discord, and the offender banned. Happened to be the same person who made a big smear post on r/rpg and r/osr too.
I like to support people who don't hate me, even if it could be argued there's not a lot that is original in her game.
I have had a few interactions with Kelsey now and have found her to be genuine.
Personally, I really do not like Shadowdark, but I think Kelsey's modules have a lot to recommend for them.
Quote from: shoplifter on November 07, 2023, 11:26:22 AM
She seems smart enough to realize that regardless of her personal beliefs, allowing the discussion in the community causes nothing but problems and ends up limiting her customer base.
Yes, and kudos to her for doing it. But, of course, to the Leftists her policy will no doubt bring accusations of White Supremacy or something, because "silence is violence".
So, in review, this is what most people think of Shadowdark?
1. Shadowdark is OSR, but nothing special. It's only real standout feature is real time tracking of torches.
2. The author is a legit gamer and nice person.
3. The author is exceptionally good at marketing and knows a lot of YouTubers who help hock her new game.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 09, 2023, 09:07:08 AM
So, in review, this is what most people think of Shadowdark?
1. Shadowdark is OSR, but nothing special. It's only real standout feature is real time tracking of torches.
2. The author is a legit gamer and nice person.
3. The author is exceptionally good at marketing and knows a lot of YouTubers who help hock her new game.
I think that probably sums it up. It was at the right place/time to do a gangbusters kickstarter and is a high quality product, while not being revolutionary for most people that play OSR games.
I think the art for it is fantastic. Wouldn't surprise me if that's a draw for some people. Maybe even a lot of them.
Quote from: I on November 10, 2023, 01:05:44 AM
I think the art for it is fantastic. Wouldn't surprise me if that's a draw for some people. Maybe even a lot of them.
the black and white art is very evocative , done by Runehammer (the guy who made IndexCard RPG), and very styalistic. Reminds me of Darkest dungeon and Veins of the Earth which is what Shadowdark's core gameploy is about: dungeon crawling and trying not to die.
The other key draw is the tightness of rules, very simple, easy to pickup and learn and run with. Little complexity and a focus on less rolling for tasks and more doing things your character is naturally good at.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 09, 2023, 09:07:08 AM
So, in review, this is what most people think of Shadowdark?
1. Shadowdark is OSR, but nothing special. It's only real standout feature is real time tracking of torches.
2. The author is a legit gamer and nice person.
3. The author is exceptionally good at marketing and knows a lot of YouTubers who help hock her new game.
Actually real time tracking of torches she didnt come up with. Old School Essentials used it long before Shadowdark and it was used in earlier games. I agree with two and 3 but yes, ShadowDark doesn't do anything OSE (My choice of OSR games) doesn't already do. Dont need another game that just sits on the shelf and doesn't get played.
If you isolate mechanics in any game, each one has very likely been done before. I have seen countless times people posting about new clever mechanics and the first reply citing some game that did it earlier.
So many games, both well known and obscure, have been developed over the past 50 years that very few "new" mechanics will actually be truly innovative.
Innovation is now about packaging mechanics into a game, so that's it's intuitive, fun, and compelling. Yeah there might be a slight change to a mechanic that makes it innovative, but odds are not.
And there's nothing wrong with using tried and tested mechanics! It makes the game easier to learn! Innovation for the sake of innovation is stupid. So the criticism of ShadowDark (or any game) lacking innovation is a big "so what?" for me.
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2023, 02:05:40 PM
If you isolate mechanics in any game, each one has very likely been done before. I have seen countless times people posting about new clever mechanics and the first reply citing some game that did it earlier.
Yes but when someone states it like she did something new, I am going to point out and correct the person and say No, its not new, its been done before.
I didnt say it lacked innovation or was inovative, I just corrected someone saying something was new when it was not.
"States it like it was new"? Did she claim to have created new mechanics or was it just marketing spin?
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 10, 2023, 03:12:20 PM
"States it like it was new"? Did she claim to have created new mechanics or was it just marketing spin?
I am not talking about her. I am talking about the person who posted here and I replied to.
A "standout" feature? If you're reading that as a claim of innovation, I dunno man. I don't read it that way. To me that means good or uncommon, not innovative or new. But hey you can interpret things how you want. I stand by my screed that innovation in mechanics is not that important.
Since most games eschew real time tracking of torches stupidity, having it does count as a 'stand out feature', even if other games have included that stupidity before. Noteworthy doesn't have to equal innovative, especially if we're talking about the OSR which to a certain extent is exactly about not innovating.
Quote from: migo on November 10, 2023, 04:47:03 PM
Since most games eschew real time tracking of torches stupidity, having it does count as a 'stand out feature', even if other games have included that stupidity before. Noteworthy doesn't have to equal innovative, especially if we're talking about the OSR which to a certain extent is exactly about not innovating.
I wouldn't call it stupidity. Having run a couple one shots in Shadowdark that mechanic, combined with wandering monster mechanics that escalate in the dark and limited gear slots that keep you from loading up on torches, creates a real pressure on players to GET ON WITH IT. No creeping down a hall tapping every flagstone with a 10' pole. No searching every inch of the dungeion for a secret door. No long-winded arguments about which way to go. No chit chat about Baldur's Gate 3. It's fairly effective at encouraging a specific and focused style of play. Not everyone's cup of tea and personally I'm on the fence with it. Fun for a change, though I suspect it will get old after a bit. But I didn't find it stupid. The mechanic achieves what the designer intended it to achieve, which is often an indicator of thoughtful design and a lot of playtesting whether you care for the result or not.
I should have added this.
4. Is there a compelling reason to buy Shadowdark, especially when so many free and diverse OSR and non-OSR games exist? I think the consensus is a no from the majority.
Myself, I prefer Olde Swords Reign, though I'm a recent convert to that game. Less than a month ago I didn't even know it was a thing, let alone free PDF/printed book at cost. But, now I am. It's my OSR book I want to try.
Of course, there are so many RPGs out there I can't play them all. Warbirds, Tiny D6 Supers, Mini-Six Bare Bones, Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool, or even going back to my roots and play more Palladium Fantasy 1E with my well worn copy.
Shadowdark is noise in the background to all of that. Only free rules would tempt me, and not even that would make me exited in the end based on what I've seen.
Quote from: Festus on November 10, 2023, 07:36:19 PM
Quote from: migo on November 10, 2023, 04:47:03 PM
Since most games eschew real time tracking of torches stupidity, having it does count as a 'stand out feature', even if other games have included that stupidity before. Noteworthy doesn't have to equal innovative, especially if we're talking about the OSR which to a certain extent is exactly about not innovating.
I wouldn't call it stupidity. Having run a couple one shots in Shadowdark that mechanic, combined with wandering monster mechanics that escalate in the dark and limited gear slots that keep you from loading up on torches, creates a real pressure on players to GET ON WITH IT. No creeping down a hall tapping every flagstone with a 10' pole. No searching every inch of the dungeion for a secret door. No long-winded arguments about which way to go. No chit chat about Baldur's Gate 3. It's fairly effective at encouraging a specific and focused style of play. Not everyone's cup of tea and personally I'm on the fence with it. Fun for a change, though I suspect it will get old after a bit. But I didn't find it stupid. The mechanic achieves what the designer intended it to achieve, which is often an indicator of thoughtful design and a lot of playtesting whether you care for the result or not.
The problem is even with a very lean combat system, it slows down. You can cover several days in game within a couple hours of play time as long as you don't have combat, but without care a combat that lasts a minute can take hours to resolve. This is where BrOSR real time = game time breaks.
The real time tracking of torches is actually one of the reasons why I don't want the game. The simulationist in me just recoils in disgust by stuff like that.
I've gone back and re-downloaded Shadowdark QuickStart. It's a decent game as many have pointed out. In fact, it's got a lot of good points that I really like.
1. Random "Talent" at every odd level, including level-1 character creation. This means you're not a cookie cutter fighter for example.
2. No Vancian magic. Wizards make a skill check, including a mishap table if you roll a 1.
3. Weapons have traits from 5E like versatile and reach.
That being said, it still isn't enough. Olde Swords Reign is free and has a lot to like as well. Why pay for Shadowdark when other comparable games are free?
I don't get people sometimes.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 13, 2023, 10:34:05 AM
I've gone back and re-downloaded Shadowdark QuickStart. It's a decent game as many have pointed out. In fact, it's got a lot of good points that I really like.
1. Random "Talent" at every odd level, including level-1 character creation. This means you're not a cookie cutter fighter for example.
2. No Vancian magic. Wizards make a skill check, including a mishap table if you roll a 1.
3. Weapons have traits from 5E like versatile and reach.
That being said, it still isn't enough. Olde Swords Reign is free and has a lot to like as well. Why pay for Shadowdark when other comparable games are free?
I don't get people sometimes.
I like those ideas, too. Not in every game, but they seem to fit together thematically.
As for your last question, the obvious answer (not necessarily correct) is that people play what other people play. If nobody is playing Olde Swords Reign, then nobody will play it. Also, free things tend to be viewed as poor quality whether justified or not. We should all be out there running the games that we like! In public, at the game store, even with people we are not aligned with. That's how we can change things.
Quote from: Festus on November 10, 2023, 07:36:19 PM
I wouldn't call it stupidity. Having run a couple one shots in Shadowdark that mechanic, combined with wandering monster mechanics that escalate in the dark and limited gear slots that keep you from loading up on torches, creates a real pressure on players to GET ON WITH IT. No creeping down a hall tapping every flagstone with a 10' pole. No searching every inch of the dungeion for a secret door. No long-winded arguments about which way to go. No chit chat about Baldur's Gate 3. It's fairly effective at encouraging a specific and focused style of play. Not everyone's cup of tea and personally I'm on the fence with it. Fun for a change, though I suspect it will get old after a bit. But I didn't find it stupid. The mechanic achieves what the designer intended it to achieve, which is often an indicator of thoughtful design and a lot of playtesting whether you care for the result or not.
I totally agree with this. This is why my players love and wanted to use the rule and is something I love about the game. I have had characters exploring and have used up their torches and oil for their lanterns and had to go back to restock. Next time they were more effecient on how they did things. I am running OSE but it's basically the same thing.
We have played it several times.
I absolutely loathe close, near, far distance rules.
Other than that the game is fine.
Quote from: DocJones on November 15, 2023, 01:45:21 PM
We have played it several times.
I absolutely loathe close, near, far distance rules.
Other than that the game is fine.
We replaced "close/Near/Far" with the standard "Base2Base", "30-119' away" "120'-200' away"
Close/Near/Far works for theater of the mind but not in practice for wargaming with minatures.
I simply used the distance measurements provided, though there's some on the games discord that for some reason try to argue the game doesn't list specific measurements. Close = 5ft, Near = Up to 30ft, Far = Within sight. Kind of like that the highest distance goes so far, since capping longbows at a mere 60ft is ridiculous.
To the talk of people playing Shadowdark instead of another game because there's people to play it with. That is very true, but I also came to realize it can be difficult to get your current friend group to actually give something a try.
One person bounced off of the way spellcasting works, despite it being exceptionally forgiving and I can only imagine he would despise being able to cast a spell once a day. Another was confusing, and seemed to think that they couldn't actually learn a new system and style of play. Which is ridiculous, one of the games selling points is how little the players need to worry about mechanically.
I believe there's no way any of them would try OSE, let alone ACKS after that.
Quote from: Gooberguh on November 16, 2023, 07:48:42 AM
To the talk of people playing Shadowdark instead of another game because there's people to play it with. That is very true, but I also came to realize it can be difficult to get your current friend group to actually give something a try.
One person bounced off of the way spellcasting works, despite it being exceptionally forgiving and I can only imagine he would despise being able to cast a spell once a day. Another was confusing, and seemed to think that they couldn't actually learn a new system and style of play. Which is ridiculous, one of the games selling points is how little the players need to worry about mechanically.
I believe there's no way any of them would try OSE, let alone ACKS after that.
That's not a new issue. I've dealt with that my whole life because I only play off brand RPGs that are not D&D.
In fact it can surprise some casuals to learn that other genres even exist.
I have some sci-fi RPG's that will most likely only get played solo. Warbirds (dieselpunk air pirates on flying islands and aircraft carriers), or Mecha vs Monsters (Pacific Rim analog), or super heroes are all collecting dust. I have more complex games like Shadowrun, Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles that I don't even try to suggest.
D&D is half the market. It just is. Even copycat rules that are similar can be a big hurdle to some. But, to say that the reason why you won't switch is that you can't learn a new set of rules is lame. Understandable, but still lame.
It's one reason why I switched to rules lite stuff. Rules that are about 30-50 pages long, sometimes less. It shouldn't be that hard to learn. But, some people are stubborn.
Is anyone running or playing shadowdark regularly? Or has tried it and it has or hasn't worked out?
I've played a few sessions using the free basic pdf that came out, haven't had a game that was regular using it. Haven't even looked at the full rules.
Quote from: GhostNinja on November 10, 2023, 12:05:30 PMQuote from: weirdguy564 on November 09, 2023, 09:07:08 AMSo, in review, this is what most people think of Shadowdark?
1. Shadowdark is OSR, but nothing special. It's only real standout feature is real time tracking of torches.
2. The author is a legit gamer and nice person.
3. The author is exceptionally good at marketing and knows a lot of YouTubers who help hock her new game.
Actually real time tracking of torches she didnt come up with. Old School Essentials used it long before Shadowdark and it was used in earlier games. I agree with two and 3 but yes, ShadowDark doesn't do anything OSE (My choice of OSR games) doesn't already do. Dont need another game that just sits on the shelf and doesn't get played.
??? Where the heck is real time torch tracking in OSE?
Quote from: BadApple on August 18, 2023, 12:56:15 PMQuote from: Persimmon on August 18, 2023, 12:51:22 PMQuote from: Slambo on August 18, 2023, 11:37:59 AMQuote from: Persimmon on August 18, 2023, 08:42:14 AMQuote from: TheGlen on August 18, 2023, 07:59:55 AMIt wasn't provided recently, I'm just that backed up. Musings take a while to write while I play the game and kick the tires. Meanwhile people keep sending me games to review. I moved this one up because of demand. I've pushed back Powers and Perils and Mutant Chronicles back several times to give precedence to donated titles. I've heard Questing Beast's video was a paid promotion and not a review.
I think most of QB's reviews are paid promotions. He should change his channel name to Questing Shill or maybe Questing for Shillings.
He's been on this board before and said that most of his videos arent paid reviews.
And yet he's still a sniveling crap weasel so....
I have no dog in the fight but he's stated that if you want him to review a product, you need to send him a physical copy. If he's paid to, he'll review a PDF.
I prefer an actual book, myself. I'm more of an analog guy. I don't knock him for that.
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on December 04, 2024, 03:53:41 PMIs anyone running or playing shadowdark regularly? Or has tried it and it has or hasn't worked out?
My campaign is up to 20 sessions now.
On ranges, we use battlemats and Close=5', Near = 30'. Not had any trouble.
Current PCs (everyone starts at 1st):
_Online. Median Level: 4_
Elbin Grizzlegut, Dwarf m Priest-5 of Madeera (Tony). Ally: Innkeeper Rowan
Lilli, Human f Priest 4 of Ord (Jelena)
Retainer: Bugs, Goblin f Wizard-2. Ally: Freydis Finehair, priestess of St Terragnis
Skulk, Goblin m Thief-4 (Kimberly). Ally: Innkeeper Rowan
Krimo Bagcutter, Halfling m Thief-4 (Philippe).
Liana the She-Elk, Amazon f Fighter-3 (Jelly). Ally: Maatkare, Priestess of Shune.
Kezi ("Burning Fire") of the Red Tiger, daughter of Xatchar, Altanian f Fighter-2 (Rena)
Nulamor of Diancecht, Elf m Wizard-2 (Spencer)
Aurelia, Elf f Fighter-1 (Aelanna)
_In-Person. Median Level: 3_
Creeg, Human m Wizard-4 (Steve). Angered Dragonqueen Saith at a Wizard Conclave when he drunkenly tried to seduce her. Later appeared in her private bathchamber. Later sent her a book of religious history and philosophy. Ally: Sword Maiden.
Retainer: Craggle, Goblin m Thief-3.
Courage, Human m Fighter-4 (Bill). Ally: Shadrak the Cunning, Sword Maiden, Torvash One-Eye.
Retainer: Ikam Kott, Human m Fighter-3. Ally: Sword Maiden.
Sister Bertrude Human f Priest-3 (Tony).
Lee Ham, Halfling m Thief-3 (Matt) "Lord Ham of Ham Manor". Ally: Shadrak the Cunning
Jorbin, Dwarf m Fighter-3 (Rich)
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on December 04, 2024, 03:53:41 PMIs anyone running or playing shadowdark regularly? Or has tried it and it has or hasn't worked out?
I've run it abit, and my current campagin (1.5 years) is in a system that is sort of a cousin of SD and I borrow from it.
reactions vary, mostly by age. older people, even those who started with 4/5e seem to like it better, "It's like D&D but all the fat cut off" was a quote. presonally, I cut the HP heavily and this made it somewhat better, because recovery to full is one rest away...
tactical play is there, but not to a great extent. it can support a mid length campain without much problems IMO.
real time torches really rub some people the wrong way and I CUT THE TIME TO 30 MIN. when i try it. It works if your players drag on IRL in every turn.
all in all, pretty decent, super easy to seduce 5e people with, and gradually try to move them over.
.
Cool
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on December 04, 2024, 03:53:41 PMIs anyone running or playing shadowdark regularly? Or has tried it and it has or hasn't worked out?
Greetings!
Yeah, I run two different game groups using Shadwdark. Shadowdark is an excellent system, easy to grasp and play, very intuitive. Smooth mechanics and game-play. Character building takes just a few minutes, and done. DMing the game, likewise is a real joy. The basic system has everything neatly layed out, very well organized, and accessible. Making dungeons, adventures, monster lairs, new NPC's, all of it, is a snap with Shadowdark. The magic system, the spells, likewise are all easy, and to the point. The game system embraces a style of play within a campaign that is quick, simple, brutal, and fun!
I have found that Shadowdark is an excellent game system, and very much OSR. I highly recommend Shadowdark to anyone.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on December 05, 2024, 09:43:46 AMQuote from: PencilBoy99 on December 04, 2024, 03:53:41 PMIs anyone running or playing shadowdark regularly? Or has tried it and it has or hasn't worked out?
Greetings!
Yeah, I run two different game groups using Shadwdark. Shadowdark is an excellent system, easy to grasp and play, very intuitive. Smooth mechanics and game-play. Character building takes just a few minutes, and done. DMing the game, likewise is a real joy. The basic system has everything neatly layed out, very well organized, and accessible. Making dungeons, adventures, monster lairs, new NPC's, all of it, is a snap with Shadowdark. The magic system, the spells, likewise are all easy, and to the point. The game system embraces a style of play within a campaign that is quick, simple, brutal, and fun!
I have found that Shadowdark is an excellent game system, and very much OSR. I highly recommend Shadowdark to anyone.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Just curious if you're running anything else right now too? or just the two shadowdark groups?
Quote from: SHARK on December 05, 2024, 09:43:46 AMQuote from: PencilBoy99 on December 04, 2024, 03:53:41 PMIs anyone running or playing shadowdark regularly? Or has tried it and it has or hasn't worked out?
Greetings!
Yeah, I run two different game groups using Shadwdark. Shadowdark is an excellent system, easy to grasp and play, very intuitive. Smooth mechanics and game-play. Character building takes just a few minutes, and done. DMing the game, likewise is a real joy. The basic system has everything neatly layed out, very well organized, and accessible. Making dungeons, adventures, monster lairs, new NPC's, all of it, is a snap with Shadowdark. The magic system, the spells, likewise are all easy, and to the point. The game system embraces a style of play within a campaign that is quick, simple, brutal, and fun!
I have found that Shadowdark is an excellent game system, and very much OSR. I highly recommend Shadowdark to anyone.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
This certainly fits my experience! The rules are simple enough I enjoy creating NPCs again.
The group I play in fortnightly is switching to Shadowdark soon, so looking forward to that.
I really just enjoy trying different systems. The last few years have been great for trying new games.
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 05, 2024, 11:33:54 AMQuote from: SHARK on December 05, 2024, 09:43:46 AMQuote from: PencilBoy99 on December 04, 2024, 03:53:41 PMIs anyone running or playing shadowdark regularly? Or has tried it and it has or hasn't worked out?
Greetings!
Yeah, I run two different game groups using Shadwdark. Shadowdark is an excellent system, easy to grasp and play, very intuitive. Smooth mechanics and game-play. Character building takes just a few minutes, and done. DMing the game, likewise is a real joy. The basic system has everything neatly layed out, very well organized, and accessible. Making dungeons, adventures, monster lairs, new NPC's, all of it, is a snap with Shadowdark. The magic system, the spells, likewise are all easy, and to the point. The game system embraces a style of play within a campaign that is quick, simple, brutal, and fun!
I have found that Shadowdark is an excellent game system, and very much OSR. I highly recommend Shadowdark to anyone.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Just curious if you're running anything else right now too? or just the two shadowdark groups?
Greetings!
Hey there, Banjo Destructo! Well, besides the two different Shadowdark games that I run, I have a third group that I play D&D 5E with at my local game store. In the game store group, I typically just play, and only occasionally DM.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I've run about a dozen sessions with Shadowdark at conventions and with my local group. I've had die hard 1E/0E players and 5E newfish, everyone has picked up how Shadowdark works with very little difficulty and has enjoyed their time playing with these rules.
Shadowdark is PERFECT for convention play as no matter your skills from Newbie to Grognard it's fairly simple to understand how things work and how to have a good time rolling dice.