Quote from: migo on March 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM

Quote from: rgalex on March 19, 2023, 04:35:27 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 17, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
So from the video and everything else I have read, there is nothing that it does I can do elsewhere.  So no need to even get this.

That's a pretty lazy excuse.

Barring some extreme cases, once you have a handful of games there isn't anything another could offer that you couldn't already do with the ones you have.

That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.

Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 19, 2023, 11:03:52 PM

Quote from: migo on March 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM

Quote from: rgalex on March 19, 2023, 04:35:27 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on March 17, 2023, 02:04:33 PM
So from the video and everything else I have read, there is nothing that it does I can do elsewhere.  So no need to even get this.

That's a pretty lazy excuse.

Barring some extreme cases, once you have a handful of games there isn't anything another could offer that you couldn't already do with the ones you have.

That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.

Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.

Greeting!

*Laughing* Yep, my friend!

I remember just like, what? a month ago or so--lots and lot of people were screaming, "TRY NEW GAMES, MORONS!"

And now..."I have 20 games already! I don't need to try any stupid new games!"

It makes me laugh at the irony.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That was when they had something to fight against. With SRD 5.1 released under CC-BY that meant there was basically nothing to fight. It's back to the status quo.

Had WotC not caved, and Shadowdark were released with modifications to not rely on the OGL, the sentiment may have been very different. This of course reveals that releasing it as CC-BY was purely strategic.

We probably also won't see SRD 3.5 released under CC-BY, because WotC sees it has had enough effect and they don't need to do anything more to calm the storm.

Quote from: migo on March 16, 2023, 10:19:57 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 16, 2023, 06:45:05 AM

Quote from: S'mon on March 15, 2023, 10:20:12 AM
I found it amusing Pundit said Garycon didn't count as OSR since it was all crusty grognards - too OS for OSR! That seems to be the milieu she came up in.

Well, I explain my position on this regarding the Shadowdark author's personal history: she hung out with actual Old School gamers, which is great, but most of them are not big into the 2nd or 3rd wave OSR.

What is that? The only thing I've heard waves applied to is feminism.

What distinguishes 1st wave, 2nd wave and 3rd wave OSR?

Here's how Pundit breaks it down.

"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.

2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).

3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."

Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM

Here's how Pundit breaks it down.

"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.

2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).

3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."

So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?

Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM

Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM

Here's how Pundit breaks it down.

"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.

2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).

3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."

So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?

I think first-wave includes near-clones like Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy RPG, as well as true clones like OSRIC, within a "D&D Dungeon Fantasy" corral. If so then Shadowdark arguably fits in there rather than with LotFP and DCC.

Quote from: S'mon on March 20, 2023, 06:10:49 AM

Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM

Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM

Here's how Pundit breaks it down.

"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.

2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).

3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."

So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?

I think first-wave includes near-clones like Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy RPG, as well as true clones like OSRIC, within a "D&D Dungeon Fantasy" corral. If so then Shadowdark arguably fits in there rather than with LotFP and DCC.

LotFP is hardly that different though. You have the Thief tuned up to be the Expert class, and you have stuff like only the Fighter advances in attack bonus. For the most part it's pretty standard. The difference is the theme, but that's kind of like saying Ravenloft is a different system from Birthright. There are some mechanical differences, but they're more alike than different.

Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 12:32:22 PM

Quote from: S'mon on March 20, 2023, 06:10:49 AM

Quote from: migo on March 20, 2023, 05:31:17 AM

Quote from: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:18:41 AM

Here's how Pundit breaks it down.

"1st wave: publishing "clones" of old rule-sets and old-school style adventure modules.

2nd wave: publishing new rule-sets within OSR boundaries (stuff like LotFP and DCC).

3rd wave: publishing setting-based books with OSR-rulesets or rule-mods (stuff like Red Tide, Arrows of Indra, Yoon-Suin, Dark Albion, etc)."

So the first two (three if you want to count HackMaster 4e) OSR games are actually 2nd wave?

I think first-wave includes near-clones like Castles & Crusades and Basic Fantasy RPG, as well as true clones like OSRIC, within a "D&D Dungeon Fantasy" corral. If so then Shadowdark arguably fits in there rather than with LotFP and DCC.

LotFP is hardly that different though. You have the Thief tuned up to be the Expert class, and you have stuff like only the Fighter advances in attack bonus. For the most part it's pretty standard. The difference is the theme, but that's kind of like saying Ravenloft is a different system from Birthright. There are some mechanical differences, but they're more alike than different.

Does it matter where a game "fits" in this scheme? I get that we humans are hard-wired to categorize stuff, but beyond scratching that itch, is there a point to that breakdown?

Quote from: Festus on March 20, 2023, 01:08:43 PM


Does it matter where a game "fits" in this scheme? I get that we humans are hard-wired to categorize stuff, but beyond scratching that itch, is there a point to that breakdown?

Not a damn thing. First wave through Nth wave categorization is kindergarden level of stupidity.
People who don't want New Thing to "interfere" with the way they play Old Thing and want to yell at clouds are the only ones getting assmad over something Different existing in their playground.

The reasons I've heard so far that Shadowdark is WongBad is:
1. Race vs. Ancestry
2. Not "OSR enough"
3. "Stole" ideas from other OSR authors.
4. Using 5E mechanics instead of B/X mechanics
5. Written by a Woman.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 20, 2023, 01:16:52 PM
The reasons I've heard so far that Shadowdark is WongBad is:
1. Race vs. Ancestry
2. Not "OSR enough"
3. "Stole" ideas from other OSR authors.
4. Using 5E mechanics instead of B/X mechanics
5. Written by a Woman.

I'll give you the first reason, but regarding the other four I've only seen people being accused of holding those views, but not anyone actually holding them.

You might profit from taking a step back and rereading the thread with less emotional charge.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 19, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.

When this thing gets released, and there is a book that's available to be bought, and a .pdf that can be downloaded and read, and a complete game to be played, then maybe, I will buy this thing. 

When Pundit (one of the guys she borrowed rules from) puts out a game, he puts it out there.  No six months of making you wait after you paid your money while the designer builds the game they are trying to sell you. 

If you want to sell your shit, you should at least have something to sell other than a promise and a dream.

Make the game, and I'll buy it.

Quote from: rgalex on March 19, 2023, 04:35:27 PM
That's a pretty lazy excuse.

Barring some extreme cases, once you have a handful of games there isn't anything another could offer that you couldn't already do with the ones you have.

Nothing lazy about it at all.   Why get a game (Shadowdark) when I already have game material that does what it does for the most point?

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 20, 2023, 02:35:14 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 19, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.

When this thing gets released, and there is a book that's available to be bought, and a .pdf that can be downloaded and read, and a complete game to be played, then maybe, I will buy this thing. 

When Pundit (one of the guys she borrowed rules from) puts out a game, he puts it out there.  No six months of making you wait after you paid your money while the designer builds the game they are trying to sell you. 

If you want to sell you shit, you should at least have something to sell other than a promise and a dream.

Make the game, and I'll buy it.

The book is already written, finished, and is in PDF completed :
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shadowdarkrpg/shadowdark-rpg-old-school-gaming-modernized

Quote
Fulfillment
All material for the game is already written, proofed, and ready to go! That means digital rewards will get sent to all backers right after the Kickstarter completes.

For physical rewards, we have quotes from several highly-vetted shipping partners and will sign on with the right team for the job based on the final size of the Kickstarter

You get your product as soon as the kickstarter closes. Not waiting 6 months, not waiting for the designer to build the game, no promises or dreams, you get what you paid for Immediately. The game is made, now will you buy it?

Quote from: Wtrmute on March 20, 2023, 02:12:01 PM


I'll give you the first reason, but regarding the other four I've only seen people being accused of holding those views, but not anyone actually holding them.

You might profit from taking a step back and rereading the thread with less emotional charge.

I've read this thread from the beginning and what i posted are the reasons people are knocking Shadowdark cumulatively over the last 18+ pages. Nothing substatial about horrible inbalance of rules,  lack of infravision, spell mechanics, minimal PC classes, etc.  If this thing is a coal mine then where is the Canary?

I'll take GhostNinja's "It has the same thing in one book that i have already with other OSR books" reason as valid. Budgets are tight these days and shelf space is limited.

Quote from: migo on March 19, 2023, 04:40:13 PM
That's what makes it so incredibly difficult to convince people to try a new system. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced buying a new game, being really excited about it, pitching it to your gaming group and not having any takers.

Yep.  I don't buy games I am not going to use anymore and sell games that don't get played.  Why would I buy ShadowDark when I have OSR and other games that do what it does?

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 20, 2023, 02:39:07 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on March 20, 2023, 02:35:14 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 19, 2023, 11:03:52 PM
Sure you can definitely just do your own homebrew. But SD had a lot of good elements just put together neatly in one nice handy package. So it's shaping up quite nicely, and we are not even at the finished product yet either.

When this thing gets released, and there is a book that's available to be bought, and a .pdf that can be downloaded and read, and a complete game to be played, then maybe, I will buy this thing. 

When Pundit (one of the guys she borrowed rules from) puts out a game, he puts it out there.  No six months of making you wait after you paid your money while the designer builds the game they are trying to sell you. 

If you want to sell you shit, you should at least have something to sell other than a promise and a dream.

Make the game, and I'll buy it.

The book is already written, finished, and is in PDF completed :
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shadowdarkrpg/shadowdark-rpg-old-school-gaming-modernized

Quote
Fulfillment
All material for the game is already written, proofed, and ready to go! That means digital rewards will get sent to all backers right after the Kickstarter completes.

For physical rewards, we have quotes from several highly-vetted shipping partners and will sign on with the right team for the job based on the final size of the Kickstarter

You get your product as soon as the kickstarter closes. Not waiting 6 months, not waiting for the designer to build the game, no promises or dreams, you get what you paid for Immediately. The game is made, now will you buy it?

When Arcane Library has a product to sell me and give to me AS SOON AS I PAY THEM, I will buy the game.  I don't do kickstarters. 

They have a million dollars.  They can put a game out there.  And then they do. I will buy it.