Quote from: Khoram on July 03, 2024, 09:26:18 AMMore often than not, it goes out at the worst time, like in combat.

This isn't coincidence -- any real time mechanic will be heavily weighted towards going off in the middle of whatever takes the most real time at the table.

In general, that'll be the important bits -- torches in Shadowdark will go out at important moments, apparently by design.

Quote from: Ruprecht on July 03, 2024, 09:57:50 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 03, 2024, 09:38:15 AMA lot of the illogical aspects of a torch timer is that combat goes way slower when rolling dice and describing it than it actually should.

This is exactly my complaint. One minute of combat can take an hour to play out at the table.

Have you played the ruleset? You had a minute of combat in Shadowdark take an hour at the table? Or you are using a different, crunchier ruleset for your mental calculation and transposing another system's light mechanic?

Quote from: Zalman on July 03, 2024, 10:11:36 AMThis isn't coincidence -- any real time mechanic will be heavily weighted towards going off in the middle of whatever takes the most real time at the table.

In general, that'll be the important bits -- torches in Shadowdark will go out at important moments, apparently by design.

I like that. I hadn't thought of it but that might change things.

Quote from: Khoram on July 03, 2024, 10:29:38 AMHave you played the ruleset? You had a minute of combat in Shadowdark take an hour at the table? Or you are using a different, crunchier ruleset for your mental calculation and transposing another system's light mechanic?

No I have not played Shadowdark, that is why I am asking questions. I can see how my comment might be read that way but that was not my intent. I own Shadowdark, think it's a beautiful game, but haven't played it and was really curious how the torches thing works out because it sounds gamey and forced. If it does cause torches to go out during combat (which it sounds like it does) and nobody has darkvision in the game that could be a big difference. Torches should go out during combat more often than they do (unless the torch holder is in the back staying out of combat).

Greetings!

Interesting! It seems like Jeremy at Black Magic Craft is also looking to embrace Shadowdark. Black Magic Craft has been a gamer forever, and definitely prefers a rough, "Metal" aesthetic in his gaming. Black Magic Craft has always liked exploring weird, blood-soaked dungeons with lots of monsters and fighting! *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

In Shadowdark, using the "Torch Timer" is easy. I have a sand-timer I keep by my DM Screen. The players always keep an eye on the shifting sands, draining away...

The Torch Timer adds a kind of resource to the game-play that brings with it a very important tactical dynamic. Being caught in the darkness has distinct disadvantages for the Player group. Players cannot just "Load Up" on torches, because of the encumbrance slots. Player Characters can only carry so much, and their limited space for gear also creates instant tension and dynamics of priorities.

Fights taking an hour? WTF? Fights are quick, brutal, and deadly! Anyone saying that fights in Shadowdark take an hour either have never played Shadowdark, or are doing something entirely wrong.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Khoram on July 03, 2024, 09:26:18 AMI sort of get where you guys are coming from, that a "real-time" torch timer sounds stupid, illogical, etc. I will tell you from my experience playing since 1983, none of my groups ever really played hardcore torchlight rules. Like rations and encumbrance, it usually (not always) got chucked out the window to make room for "fun". Not everyone will agree. There are a million styles of play.

I think that's part of the reason SD went to a timer.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 03, 2024, 09:38:15 AMAlso, I bet the GM is not describing the condition of the torch that a character is holding to the player as you play.  That's something the character can't help but notice.  The torch is right there.  You would notice it getting low, sputtering out, etc.

Easily handled by use of a timer everyone at the table can see. There is everything from hourglass to digital ones that can easily be reset, and they're all cheap.

Quote from: SHARK on July 03, 2024, 04:03:25 PMGreetings!

In Shadowdark, using the "Torch Timer" is easy. I have a sand-timer I keep by my DM Screen. The players always keep an eye on the shifting sands, draining away...

The Torch Timer adds a kind of resource to the game-play that brings with it a very important tactical dynamic. Being caught in the darkness has distinct disadvantages for the Player group. Players cannot just "Load Up" on torches, because of the encumbrance slots. Player Characters can only carry so much, and their limited space for gear also creates instant tension and dynamics of priorities.

Fights taking an hour? WTF? Fights are quick, brutal, and deadly! Anyone saying that fights in Shadowdark take an hour either have never played Shadowdark, or are doing something entirely wrong.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That visible sandglass would definitely help. 

But when I'm a GM I won't be using torch timers. 

Overall, it really is just a minor footnote rule, not a major game feature. 

I'm more likely to have issues with Shadowdark's lack of classes in the main rule book.  However, there are lots of downloadable classes that can be found on DTRPG, mostly free as well.  Things like Crusaders and Hound Masters. 

I like player classes.  The more, the better.

Again, I started in Palladium.  Rifts especially.  It's got over a few hundred classes in Rifts alone (counting all source books), and Rifts technically can also include every Palladium game as well. 

Shadowdark just stuck to the classic four, and I'm not that thrilled by just the basics. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 03, 2024, 06:36:26 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 03, 2024, 04:03:25 PMGreetings!

In Shadowdark, using the "Torch Timer" is easy. I have a sand-timer I keep by my DM Screen. The players always keep an eye on the shifting sands, draining away...

The Torch Timer adds a kind of resource to the game-play that brings with it a very important tactical dynamic. Being caught in the darkness has distinct disadvantages for the Player group. Players cannot just "Load Up" on torches, because of the encumbrance slots. Player Characters can only carry so much, and their limited space for gear also creates instant tension and dynamics of priorities.

Fights taking an hour? WTF? Fights are quick, brutal, and deadly! Anyone saying that fights in Shadowdark take an hour either have never played Shadowdark, or are doing something entirely wrong.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That visible sandglass would definitely help. 

But when I'm a GM I won't be using torch timers. 

Overall, it really is just a minor footnote rule, not a major game feature. 

I'm more likely to have issues with Shadowdark's lack of classes in the main rule book.  However, there are lots of downloadable classes that can be found on DTRPG, mostly free as well.  Things like Crusaders and Hound Masters. 

I like player classes.  The more, the better.

Again, I started in Palladium.  Rifts especially.  It's got over a few hundred classes in Rifts alone (counting all source books), and Rifts technically can also include every Palladium game as well. 

Shadowdark just stuck to the classic four, and I'm not that thrilled by just the basics. 

Greetings!

Well, Weirdguy564, you are of course, free to use or not use the torch limits as you desire. I recommend them, however, for the reasons I cited earlier.

As for classes provided in the Basic Rulebook, yeah, there are four Character Classes--Fighter, Priest, Mage and Thief. While *you* may prefer more classes in the Basic Rulebook--this is like nailing jello to a fucking wall. Legions of gamers, of experienced GM's, proclaim LOUDLY that "Stop whining, and suck it up, crybaby! Every class imaginable can be derived from the basic Character Classes!" *Laughing* You know that drill, right? I, myself, also enjoy lots of Character Classes!

And, the good thing is--there are *plenty* of additional Character Classes, provided as downloads and in the ZINES. Ranger, Bard, Gladiator, Seer, Witch, Assassin, Paladin, and Sea Wolf. That's a solid dozen Character Classes. I have since designed several additional Character Classes myself, for my world of Thandor. Knight Templar, Monastery Monk, Warrior Monk, Explorer, Artificer, Engineer, Temple Prostitute, Steppe Warrior, Alchemist, Merchant Adventurer, Witch Hunter, and Astrologer. Creating new Character Classes is *easy*--and takes a very modest amount of time to accomplish, though of course you can always devote more time to creating a particular, individual Character Class.

That is just it though, Weirdguy564--there are *plenty* of GM's that take the position of "Fuck that! I don't need all these crazy class options! Just give me the basic set, that's all I need!" So, there are diametrically different player or GM groups as it were, that Shadowdark seeks to embrace. With such divergent, convoluted interests often at odds with each other, Kelsey only has a limited number of page-count she is dealing with for a basic rule book, and thus, choices needed to be made. Any customer needs to accept that reality, whether they agree or not, it is nonetheless a very real dynamic when publishing a book.

Then, of course, there is the background of the OSR that she comes from, which celebrates a very DIY mindset. Any GM with a minimal experience basis should be able to create their own additional, special Character Classes that are especially tailored to their campaign milieu. Historically, that is one of the huge pleasures and rewards for any GM playing RPG's, especially OSR games.

The basic, official Character Classes provided should be reasonably sufficient for you, and as I mentioned, there is plenty of scope and room for YOU to add new creations designed to your own liking and preferences and tailored to your campaign milieu.

Shadowdark is a fantastic game, fun to play, and a joy to actually run as a GM!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shadowdark was no more than the shiny red ball from last year. This year there will be something else. Gamer ADHD is real.