I searched for Shadowdark on Youtube and nearly every video that popped up was over a year old. Seems like it made a huge splash and then mostly disappeared. Am I missing something, do they have a massive Rumble community, did it just turn out to be "ok" after all the hype, is it because the pdf is $30 and you can only get it from Arcane Library so it's slipping out of the public zeitgeist? Curious what others think.
Note - I am aware of the review on this board from January.
It's not my thing, but Sly Flourish has a series of videos where he talks about prepping for his ongoing Shadowdark game.
I was pretty harsh on Shadowdark when it came out. My opinion on it hasn't changed on it, but in fairness its extremely rare for a new game to make much of a lasting impact. I think Dragonbane is the only new RPG I've seen evidence of people continuing to play on a long-term basis in the last couple of years.
I think this is the nature of the beast. RPG campaigns take a significant investment of time and energy, moreso for a new system. I run a different system every campaign, but I seem to be in the minority there. Most people are only going to put that effort in for a new game if it offers something substantially different than what they already run. That's doubly true in the OSR space, where almost everyone has long ago picked a game they prefer (usually OSE it seems), or are running their own homebrew. One of the things that became clear to me in the discourse around Shadowdark when it came out is that even its most strident defenders can't tell you much that's new that it brings to the table.
The pattern with these big Kickstarters appears to be that they get a bunch of buzz, a lot of people buy in because it looks cool, then the vast majority of those people run the game a handful of times before going back to whatever their go-to already was. I think industry veterans like Kelsey Dionne know that, and design their campaigns around it. I'm not going to go all the way to calling product like Shadowdark a get-rich-quick scheme, but it looks to me like they're very much intended to prioritize intitial Kickstarter revenue over game longevity.
They got their kickstarter money, and that's all
I meant to add on my previous post that the only reason to suppose Shadowdark was going to make a splash on the RPG scene was the idea that it was going to be "OSR for the 5e crowd". At this point I think it's pretty clear that was just marketing hype. The 5e crowd mostly isn't interested in the OSR, and the ones that are didn't need Shadowdark to be a gateway drug.
Greetings!
I have been running a campaign using Shadowdark rules for some time now. I have several friends out of stte that are likewise running Shadowdark campaigns. On YouTube, Unscripted & Unchained, and several others run regular Shadowdark campaigns.
Shadowdark is an excellent game system and set of fun, simple, and brutal rules that make running an OSR campaign quick, smooth, and always fun!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's got zero presence where I am, though I think I saw a copy of the core book in the local game store around Christmas last year. I remain unconvinced that it's anything more than another set of cobbled together house rules, which I'm perfectly capable of doing myself. Some people lack the time or creativity to do that, so I suppose it's good for them. Or maybe they just like other people's house rules.
A quick look at DriveThruRPG shows over 300 3rd party Shadowdark products.
Couple thousand people in Arcane Library's Discord
Arcane Library YouTube channel has over 23k subscribers
Sly Flourish's latest SD video (the 30th session prep video!) has 1.9k views
Bob World Builder just kickstarted (funded 5/31) an SD supplement "Delve" - raised $380k with ~1250 backers for the SD version and ~3000 backers for the 5e version, and a couple thousand getting both versions in a digital only bundle.
As noted the book is only available on the Arcane Library site so actual sales figures aren't public, but I'd say there's a thriving base for such a new game created by a one-woman shop. Whether it "mostly disappeared" or not is probably a function of the social circles and online communities one belongs to.
Full disclosure: I backed it and played it a handful of times. Decent game but it has one feature that I, as an old wargamer, really dislike: close/near/far abstract movement/range. Thus it didn't earn a regular place at my table. But I don't regret adding it to my collection.
It delivered well on the Kickstarter rewards and last I was on the Discord it was very lively with games and third party products. The game itself did what it was supposed to do: be an easy casual pick up game with some of the feel of OSR.
But we'll see in another year or two if people move on or we get more substantial stuff for it.
Quote from: Festus on June 04, 2024, 09:30:29 PMFull disclosure: I backed it and played it a handful of times. Decent game but it has one feature that I, as an old wargamer, really dislike: close/near/far abstract movement/range. Thus it didn't earn a regular place at my table. But I don't regret adding it to my collection.
I'm probably a bit off-topic here, but I find this a bit perplexing. The swap between zone-based and grid-based combat is fairly easy, and you have literally decades worth of examples to draw from. I myself am playing F.O.R.G.E, which also uses zone combat, and I just bolted on the S&W Revised combat system and it has been pretty seamless. What game has been hitting your table instead?
Now I'm not evangelizing Shadowdark here. I'm not playing it either, but it has to do more with the community of players where I live rather than any particular dislike of the product.
DC20 is kickstarting and filling up YouTube now, from a number of the same YouTubers that praised Shadowdark last year. From what I can tell it seems that DC20 is fiddly and complicated and not particularly OSR. Its more of a 5.1E so it's not likely to cut into the same audience. Will see.
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 05, 2024, 01:39:35 PMFrom what I can tell it seems that DC20 is fiddly and complicated and not particularly OSR. Its more of a 5.1E so it's not likely to cut into the same audience. Will see.
Yeah. DC20 is real fiddly and the game feels basically like "I have this cool idea, let's add it" without any real core concept of the game's design. You have action points, hit points, mana points, stamina points and grit points you get to track round to round. Armor is deflection AC but also absorbs damage, because why not have both when one will do. Advantage/disadvantage can stack up now, when the entire point of it was to eliminate tracking stacking mods.
But hey, it's at 560k on day 4 when 13th Age 2nd edition is about half that on day 29. Clearly, the new kids on the block understand better how to market in today's Kickstarter scene.
Quote from: rkhigdon on June 05, 2024, 10:47:17 AMI'm probably a bit off-topic here, but I find this a bit perplexing. The swap between zone-based and grid-based combat is fairly easy, and you have literally decades worth of examples to draw from. I myself am playing F.O.R.G.E, which also uses zone combat, and I just bolted on the S&W Revised combat system and it has been pretty seamless. What game has been hitting your table instead?
I've been mostly running a heavily homebrewed 5e, plus a few one shots of Savage Worlds. It's not that zone based combat is hard - Far from it. Or that I can't swap out one system's combat for another. But why bother? As you say, there are decades worth of games out there. That advantage of "5e" (not sure what I'm playing now truly qualifies anymore) is that it's easy to find players for and many won't even recognize how much you've altered it. But if I'm not going to carry on with the homebrew I've done, I'll move to a system I don't need to homebrew that much.
Zone-based combat is not too big a deal in Shadowdark if you're playing it "as intended" i.e. dungeon-crawling where the combat area is mainly defined by how far your torches' light carries. But my homebrew campaign is heavy on wilderness and exploration, so SD just isn't a great fit for me. Has some great random tables that I use on occasion tho.
I still collect a lot of different games and mine them for ideas and inspiration.
I was a big fan of simplified zones until I tried Roll20 and with everything visual and using grids both zones and grid seem about the same.
Quote from: Festus on June 05, 2024, 06:03:07 PMI've been mostly running a heavily homebrewed 5e, plus a few one shots of Savage Worlds.....
Zone-based combat is not too big a deal in Shadowdark if you're playing it "as intended" i.e. dungeon-crawling where the combat area is mainly defined by how far your torches' light carries.
Ah. To be clear I wasn't suggesting you use zone-based combat, but rather switch Shadowdark to grid-based. However, if you've got a different homebrew going already there's no reason to make the effort.
Quote from: ForgottenF on June 03, 2024, 07:34:56 PMI was pretty harsh on Shadowdark when it came out. My opinion on it hasn't changed on it, but in fairness its extremely rare for a new game to make much of a lasting impact. I think Dragonbane is the only new RPG I've seen evidence of people continuing to play on a long-term basis in the last couple of years.
One of our DMs ran it for us 3 times. He then switched to running Dragonbane which he has run like 6 times and planning to run more. The group consensus is Dragonbane is better than Shadowdark.
Some solo rules for Shadowdark dropped recently, so there has been an up tick in interest for me, but it has not risen to the level of reading any reviews. Currently quite happy with my Fabula Ultima game.
I think its like a lot of games, they come out, they are popular and are talked about and then things die down and people just play the game and don't talk about it as much.
Didn't back it because I have OSE which is all the fantasy gaming I need. But lots of people backed it, a lot of people like it so it was definitely a successful game.
Quote from: ForgottenF on June 03, 2024, 07:34:56 PMI was pretty harsh on Shadowdark when it came out. My opinion on it hasn't changed on it, but in fairness its extremely rare for a new game to make much of a lasting impact. I think Dragonbane is the only new RPG I've seen evidence of people continuing to play on a long-term basis in the last couple of years.
I think this is the nature of the beast. RPG campaigns take a significant investment of time and energy, moreso for a new system. I run a different system every campaign, but I seem to be in the minority there. Most people are only going to put that effort in for a new game if it offers something substantially different than what they already run. That's doubly true in the OSR space, where almost everyone has long ago picked a game they prefer (usually OSE it seems), or are running their own homebrew. One of the things that became clear to me in the discourse around Shadowdark when it came out is that even its most strident defenders can't tell you much that's new that it brings to the table.
The pattern with these big Kickstarters appears to be that they get a bunch of buzz, a lot of people buy in because it looks cool, then the vast majority of those people run the game a handful of times before going back to whatever their go-to already was. I think industry veterans like Kelsey Dionne know that, and design their campaigns around it. I'm not going to go all the way to calling product like Shadowdark a get-rich-quick scheme, but it looks to me like they're very much intended to prioritize intitial Kickstarter revenue over game longevity.
I'll comment on the last bit first. I've never thought of Shadowdark as a get rich quick scheme. It's more like a game to get out from under the thumb of D&D/Wizards of the Coast. They're clearly unstable now when it comes to business and trust.
When your own business (Arcane Library) is reliant on working on 5E compatible products, then the whole thing turns into a fiasco that might implode at any time, you make your own RPG.
As for Shadowdark itself, I think it's a bit above average, but only a bit. I own the PDF to see what the big deal is.
1. Well written. Very well written. Things fit on two open pages so no page flipping needed, charts are in the front few pages ahead of the index, lots of random charts.
2. 5E gear traits, which I like. Only thing missing was 1-handed battle axes that lead to a meme that the Shadowdark universe just doesn't have 1-handed axes.
3. Character advancement is a random table roll. Our matching starter characters won't match for long, and I like that.
4. Non-Vancian magic. I never liked Vancian magic.
But, the bad.
1. It only has four classes in the main book. Boring.
2. Magic fails can go horribly wrong and hurt you or the group. Some people like this. I don't.
3. It doesn't stand out for any reason. I've seen all these tricks before in other games. Dion just used and combined a bunch of known game features, and invented nothing new. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I like alternate games to do something unique.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on June 06, 2024, 01:07:12 PM1. Well written. Very well written. Things fit on two open pages so no page flipping needed, charts are in the front few pages ahead of the index, lots of random charts.
2. 5E gear traits, which I like. Only thing missing was 1-handed battle axes that lead to a meme that the Shadowdark universe just doesn't have 1-handed axes.
3. Character advancement is a random table roll. Our matching starter characters won't match for long, and I like that.
4. Non-Vancian magic. I never liked Vancian magic.
But, the bad.
1. It only has four classes in the main book. Boring.
2. Magic fails can go horribly wrong and hurt you or the group. Some people like this. I don't.
3. It doesn't stand out for any reason. I've seen all these tricks before in other games. Dion just used and combined a bunch of known game features, and invented nothing new. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I like alternate games to do something unique.
Actually I'm a fan of the first two things on your bad list (4 classes and dangerous magic).
Your number 3 on the good list though, I'm unsure about the character advancement and was hoping to hear someone comment on that.
I think it looks like a solid game, the books are beautiful and the art is evocative. My only issues are:
1. Only sold through Arcane Library. That bugs me for some reason. I'll probably get over it at some point.
2. The torch time = Everyone raves about it on reviews but it seems silly.
3. PDF = $30 seems very high for a pdf.
Quote from: Dracones on June 05, 2024, 03:12:02 PMBut hey, it's at 560k on day 4 when 13th Age 2nd edition is about half that on day 29. Clearly, the new kids on the block understand better how to market in today's Kickstarter scene.
Indeed it's a simple formula:
- start with a channel discussing D&D
- write a game which can easily be identified as a variant of D&D
- network with influencers involved with D&D
And because of that #DC20 will likely fade into the shadows once the next fantasy heartbreaker darling makes its debut.
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 07, 2024, 09:29:02 AMI think it looks like a solid game, the books are beautiful and the art is evocative. My only issues are:
1. Only sold through Arcane Library. That bugs me for some reason. I'll probably get over it at some point.
Do you have any idea why this bothers you?
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 07, 2024, 09:29:02 AM2. The torch time = Everyone raves about it on reviews but it seems silly.
It's the way it was done in old D&D. That's how it is done in OSE. Makes perfect sense. Lighting a torch that just lasts forever is nonsense.
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 07, 2024, 09:29:02 AM3. PDF = $30 seems very high for a pdf.
Yes, way too much for a .pdf. Although, I am a print or nothing person so I do not buy .pdfs. Ever
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 07, 2024, 11:29:17 AMDo you have any idea why this bothers you?
It means typing out my credit card info in another site that might be hacked, also it almost feels like the game is hiding.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 07, 2024, 11:29:17 AMIt's the way it was done in old D&D. That's how it is done in OSE. Makes perfect sense. Lighting a torch that just lasts forever is nonsense.
My copy of OSE basic makes a clear distinction between game time and real time. I never used real time in old D&D. Combat could take an hour of play time but only take 5 minutes of game time (1 round = 1 minute in 1E). So your group would have torches go out because you set a timer and the combat took an hour because you were making Holy Grail Jokes? I think you are misunderstanding the Shadowdark torch time rules. Everyone that reviewed it said it was unique.
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 07, 2024, 12:18:18 PMQuote from: GhostNinja on June 07, 2024, 11:29:17 AMDo you have any idea why this bothers you?
It means typing out my credit card info in another site that might be hacked, also it almost feels like the game is hiding.
Dionne and Runehammer (whose new game Crown & Skull is only available thru his site) have talked about this. In their calculations, the fees collected by DriveThru RPG, Amazon, Ebay, and distributors that sell wholesale to FLGS's make those channels less profitable and more hassle than selling from their own websites *if* their marketing - YouTube, email lists, social media, word of mouth - is on point. Sly Flourish has spoken about this as well. So Arcane Library and Runehammer are investing in their direct marketing efforts rather than using more traditional distribution channels.
Are they really making more money that way? No idea. But it does mean that they have complete control over their entire show from production to distribution to support. I don't blame a creator for seeking that control.
I believe Grim Jim does it as well. They should find a way to combine forces.
It's expansive and it doesn't seem to do anything that I couldn't do with any number of other OSR titles for much less or free. The real time torch gimmick isn't much to differentiate it and I could do that in any OSR game anyway. I do have a question though. If adventurers don't have any sort of darkvision and torches are their only light but monsters do, why don't intelligent monsters immediately go after the light every time? It seems like a very obvious tactic to give them a huge advantage.
Shadowdark and DC20 are typical examples of games that make a big splash on Kickstarter but then fade into obscurity. It's fatal for brand visibility and brand awareness if a game isn't available as a physical copy on Amazon or through other online rpg vendors. Shadowdark might have found a niche in the North American market, but it's practically non-existent everywhere else because it is only available through the Arcane Library. The same fate will probably befall DC20 and MCDM.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on June 08, 2024, 05:41:58 AMShadowdark and DC20 are typical examples of games that make a big splash on Kickstarter but then fade into obscurity. It's fatal for brand visibility and brand awareness if a game isn't available as a physical copy on Amazon or through other online rpg vendors. Shadowdark might have found a niche in the North American market, but it's practically non-existent everywhere else because it is only available through the Arcane Library. The same fate will probably befall DC20 and MCDM.
Interestingly enough, Castles & Crusades, which according to their owners has experienced a massive expansion in interest since the OGL fiasco, has just announced they're expanding into Hungary, putting out an edition in Magyar. I can't imagine that's a huge market, but C&C has been around for about 20 years and is retaining and even expanding its niche, which is cool. They've also announced that they're taking measures to expand physical distribution, which I do think is key to lasting popularity. I've seen their physical products in a fair number of bookstores & gaming stores, but nothing like D&D or Pathfinder.
Quote from: yosemitemike on June 08, 2024, 04:28:48 AMIf adventurers don't have any sort of darkvision and torches are their only light but monsters do, why don't intelligent monsters immediately go after the light every time? It seems like a very obvious tactic to give them a huge advantage.
A good GM would have intelligent creatures use that tactic. Either that or a room full of flammables... I don't think the game itself goes into that level of tactics but they should. The monster descriptions are super-short.
Quote from: Festus on June 07, 2024, 02:00:07 PMDionne and Runehammer (whose new game Crown & Skull is only available thru his site) have talked about this. In their calculations, the fees collected by DriveThru RPG, Amazon, Ebay, and distributors that sell wholesale to FLGS's make those channels less profitable and more hassle than selling from their own websites *if* their marketing - YouTube, email lists, social media, word of mouth - is on point. Sly Flourish has spoken about this as well. So Arcane Library and Runehammer are investing in their direct marketing efforts rather than using more traditional distribution channels.
Yes, it makes total sense and If I were going to design and sell a game I would do it through my site. While I have game stores that have rpgs, for the most part they are an afterthought to cards and board games. I get it that board games and cards (and miniatures) make more money but I would prefer to give my money directly to company so they get 100% of the profit.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 08, 2024, 12:40:29 PMYes, it makes total sense and If I were going to design and sell a game I would do it through my site. While I have game stores that have rpgs, for the most part they are an afterthought to cards and board games. I get it that board games and cards (and miniatures) make more money but I would prefer to give my money directly to company so they get 100% of the profit.
I would try to do both as the bigger sites provide a lot of exposure. They'll take more of your profits for not giving them an exclusive but any sale is one you may not have gotten if people didn't know where to find your game.
Quote from: yosemitemike on June 08, 2024, 04:28:48 AMIt's expansive and it doesn't seem to do anything that I couldn't do with any number of other OSR titles for much less or free. The real time torch gimmick isn't much to differentiate it and I could do that in any OSR game anyway. I do have a question though. If adventurers don't have any sort of darkvision and torches are their only light but monsters do, why don't intelligent monsters immediately go after the light every time? It seems like a very obvious tactic to give them a huge advantage.
While I don't have it myself iirc "attack the light" is advice given in the gm advice section.
Quote from: Ruprecht on June 08, 2024, 12:49:14 PMI would try to do both as the bigger sites provide a lot of exposure. They'll take more of your profits for not giving them an exclusive but any sale is one you may not have gotten if people didn't know where to find your game.
If I ever do it I will keep it in mind.
I can't speak to the game itself but I discovered the Arcane Library channel shortly before the OGL debacle as I was looking into indie fantasy RPGs and subscribed to follow the general development of the game. I was more interested in how she designed it as well as the process of funding it and getting it into backer hands (so basically more along on the business and production side). I was surprised it got as huge as it did but was happy for her... and then even more surprised to see the channel just basically shut after raising so much. I think she's had a single video put up in the past 7-8 months and I can't help but think she's going to lose momentum from that relative radio silence. To her credit, she did successfully complete getting her rewards out which is much more important from a consumer perspective though.
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 03, 2024, 07:58:47 PMThey got their kickstarter money, and that's all
you still are bitter over her success it sounds like. Didn't she tell you over Twitter that she'd love to talk to you? Did you ever setup that interview?
She just won an award up at North Texas and is very big in the convention route.
As far as her radio silence she's very active in her discord and doing more collabs with other authors. They are releasing a Solo Shaddowdark suppliment for folks to play by themselves if they so choose.
There's a bunch of products out there based on Shadowdark coming out on DTRPG. As many as OSE? No. OSE has a long headstart and Shadowdark is just getting put out there.
Quote from: RNGm on June 09, 2024, 11:03:47 AMand then even more surprised to see the channel just basically shut after raising so much.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 10, 2024, 04:59:57 PMAs far as her radio silence she's very active in her discord and doing more collabs with other authors.
Seems she just shifted from growing the community to engaging the community, which makes sense for someone who
does care about the players more than the money.
I don't think the lower YouTube profile of the game means it's "dead" in anyway. Kelsey was pretty open about not wanting to distribute through DTRPG etc even when she was just making 5e adventures because the cut they take just made it more economicallyy viable to build up a direct sales model. And it paid off in spades for her with the kickstarter - more power to her. A game doesn't need endless new material for it to be "alive".
However, on a slight tangent - I backed both Shadowdark and Ben Milton's Knave 2e and I kind of regret it in both instances. Both are fine OSR games in their own right and the production quality is spot on. But with any straight fantasy OSR type game it seems like you might as well just buy Basic Fantasy or Whitebox Adventure Game for $5 and make any particular tweaks yourself to suit your style of play, rather than drop $30-40 on what is essentially the same thing just with sexier art and design and a few baked in houserules.
Quote from: Alex K on June 11, 2024, 05:56:33 AMHowever, on a slight tangent - I backed both Shadowdark and Ben Milton's Knave 2e and I kind of regret it in both instances. Both are fine OSR games in their own right and the production quality is spot on. But with any straight fantasy OSR type game it seems like you might as well just buy Basic Fantasy or Whitebox Adventure Game for $5 and make any particular tweaks yourself to suit your style of play, rather than drop $30-40 on what is essentially the same thing just with sexier art and design and a few baked in houserules.
Can't comment on Knave, but Shadowdark could have easily just been released as an OSE hack.
The modified classes, and a section on how to turn magic into a casting roll by adding the spell level to 10. Plus some charts to round it out.
Probably less than a third the length of current SD.
But then she wouldn't have her own game community. Can't hate on the hustle...
Greetings!
*Laughing* All of the haters, the critics, the naysayers, usually miss the elephant in the room.
Kelsey has more than 1,000,000 dollars in her bank account, and a successful, popular, and thriving business. Kelsey and Shadowdark has many fans and supporters, and a vibrant future to be even more successful.
All the bitter, jealous, envious squeeling is so funny. Kelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.
Shadowdark has like, 300 3rd party products for the game on DTRPG. Her system is growing, just like her fanbase and the community surrounding Shadowdark.
I think Shadowdark should be celebrated. Kelsey should be applauded for her game writing skills, her passion, and devotion to gaming, and the OSR.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMGreetings!
*Laughing* All of the haters, the critics, the naysayers, usually miss the elephant in the room.
Kelsey has more than 1,000,000 dollars in her bank account, and a successful, popular, and thriving business. Kelsey and Shadowdark has many fans and supporters, and a vibrant future to be even more successful.
All the bitter, jealous, envious squeeling is so funny. Kelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.
Shadowdark has like, 300 3rd party products for the game on DTRPG. Her system is growing, just like her fanbase and the community surrounding Shadowdark.
I think Shadowdark should be celebrated. Kelsey should be applauded for her game writing skills, her passion, and devotion to gaming, and the OSR.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Yes. We should celebrate OSR successes, not hate on them. Save the hate for those who deserve it.
Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PM*Laughing* All of the haters, the critics, the naysayers, usually miss the elephant in the room.
...
All the bitter, jealous, envious squeeling is so funny. Kelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.
Quote from: Aglondir on June 11, 2024, 05:48:22 PMYes. We should celebrate OSR successes, not hate on them. Save the hate for those who deserve it.
Who's hating? Who's squeeling?
I went back through the thread. Aside from some flippant remarks in
two whole posts on the first page, who are the haters?
Honestly who?
Because after the first few posts, people are just giving their opinions on the game, like they would in any other thread.
I'll back that idea. Hats off to Dion and Shadowdark.
I'll doubt I'll ever play it, but it's a decently good game that's not my gaming style.
But, then again, my current favorite games are even MORE obscure. Im hardly a good test subject for this sort of thing. I like Tiny D6, Pocket Fantasy, Kogarashi, and Mini-six Bare Bones.
Quote from: Jaeger on June 11, 2024, 04:40:18 PMQuote from: Alex K on June 11, 2024, 05:56:33 AMHowever, on a slight tangent - I backed both Shadowdark and Ben Milton's Knave 2e and I kind of regret it in both instances. Both are fine OSR games in their own right and the production quality is spot on. But with any straight fantasy OSR type game it seems like you might as well just buy Basic Fantasy or Whitebox Adventure Game for $5 and make any particular tweaks yourself to suit your style of play, rather than drop $30-40 on what is essentially the same thing just with sexier art and design and a few baked in houserules.
Can't comment on Knave, but Shadowdark could have easily just been released as an OSE hack.
The modified classes, and a section on how to turn magic into a casting roll by adding the spell level to 10. Plus some charts to round it out.
Probably less than a third the length of current SD.
But then she wouldn't have her own game community. Can't hate on the hustle...
This was my outlook on it, and it's only gotten moreso in the past year. Others can buy what they want, but for myself I don't see the point in creating or buying any more 4-class generic dungeon-fantasy OSR games. Other than minor tweaks that I could easily read about in a blog-post and then homebrew into my OSR game of choice, it's all been done at this point.
Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMI think Shadowdark should be celebrated. Kelsey should be applauded for her game writing skills, her passion, and devotion to gaming, and the OSR.
Well said, sir! Amen.
Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMKelsey has more than 1,000,000 dollars in her bank account, and a successful, popular, and thriving business. Kelsey and Shadowdark has many fans and supporters, and a vibrant future to be even more successful.
Well, no. There were actual costs associated with ShadowDark, so the funds raised by the Kickstarter aren't all just in her bank. I don't know how much she had to pony up to produce the thing, but it wasn't nothing.
Not arguing that it isn't successful, especially for an Indie game. But it wasn't THAT successful.
Quote from: SHARKI think Shadowdark should be celebrated. Kelsey should be applauded for her game writing skills, her passion, and devotion to gaming, and the OSR.
Yeah, anyone who can make a good living as an indie game designer should be celebrated. That's living the dream. And Kelsey seems to go out of her way to hustle, so good on her. I wonder how devoted she is to the OSR. Or Ben Milton for that matter (didn't someone mention Knave 2e up there too?) While both games are OSR-like in some ways, and Knave 2e even calls itself an OSR game, I'm not sure that I agree that it is, or that it's really as compatible with OSR games as he claims it is. I think the OSR has long ago become such a watered down marketing term that claiming to be OSR doesn't really mean much of anything specific anymore.
That said, I always say that I'm not old-school, but I am old-fashioned. I don't have a dog in this race, because I'm not really an OSR guy either. I am, however, at least somewhat sympathetic to the OSR and its desire to stake out both a playstyle and a common-enough core of mechanics. Which is exactly why I see some games that claim to be modern-OSR hybrids, like ShadowDark, Knave, or Five Torches Deep, etc. as to at least some degree trying to cash in on the cachet of the OSR as a pseudo-brand rather than actually offering anything that's distinctly OSR.
I also wonder if, even if they are pretty spiffy books, and by all appearances they are (if Knave would actually ship, that is), they really offer anything to OSR folks that they have any need or use for other than a pretty coffee table style book that they can show off... but who won't actually use much if anything in it.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on June 11, 2024, 01:16:54 AMQuote from: RNGm on June 09, 2024, 11:03:47 AMand then even more surprised to see the channel just basically shut after raising so much.
Seems she just shifted from growing the community to engaging the community, which makes sense for someone who does care about the players more than the money.
Youtube subscribers aren't part of the community? Or just not worth engaging with on the site even minimally with content?
Quote from: Alex K on June 11, 2024, 05:56:33 AMI don't think the lower YouTube profile of the game means it's "dead" in anyway.
Was anyone claiming that? I certainly wasn't when I mentioned youtube activity specifically in the thread.
Quote from: RNGm on June 12, 2024, 12:19:39 AMYoutube subscribers aren't part of the community? Or just not worth engaging with on the site even minimally with content?
Youtube is becoming like Facebook. Its where the grammas and grandpas hang out and post pictures of their grandkids and their indulgent Boomer cruise ship vacations. Its not where people Kelsey's age or younger do much of anything anymore. It's been eclipsed and superceded as an avenue for engagement by TikTok, Discord and other venues.
I'm currently running a Shadowdark game, and we're really enjoying it. It plays incredibly smooth and fast and intuitive at the table, which is what I want in a game these days. My players and I are all gamers from the 1970's and 1980's who grew up with the early versions of D&D, and Shadowdark just gets to the heart of what we want in a D&D game. I also honestly thought the torch timer thing would be a dumb gimmick that we would not use, but we tried it, and to my surprise my players enjoyed it.
Shadowdark also seems so far to be the game that I feel the need to houserule the least. Every system I've run, I've created house rules for. But after reading the SD rules, a slight modification in the way searches are handled is the only thing I had the urge to houserule. The game just plays really well as written.
Obviously the game is not for everyone. If you like alot of crunch and large, in-depth rulebooks, Shadowdark probably isn't for you. But if you're looking for a light and lean D&D that runs smooth as silk, Shadowdark is a really nice game. And nobody at my table cares about how groundbreaking or innovate the rules may or may not be, when all we want is a night of simple and fun D&D, which this game delivers in a really nice way.
Quote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMKelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.
That's nice for her. It's irrelevant to my opinion of the game.
Quote from: yosemitemike on June 16, 2024, 05:55:29 AMQuote from: SHARK on June 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PMKelsey is more successful and *richer* than anyone on this board, including Pundit.
That's nice for her. It's irrelevant to my opinion of the game.
Greetings!
Yeah, you are right, Yosemitemike. I made the point however, because of people second-guessing her marketing choices, why doesn't she sell her game this way, or she needs to market her game this way--and on and on. Well, clearly, as her financial and business success demonstrates, she clearly knows more about this than most. She clearly knows what she is doing.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Crusader X on June 15, 2024, 11:27:16 AMI'm currently running a Shadowdark game, and we're really enjoying it. It plays incredibly smooth and fast and intuitive at the table, which is what I want in a game these days. My players and I are all gamers from the 1970's and 1980's who grew up with the early versions of D&D, and Shadowdark just gets to the heart of what we want in a D&D game. I also honestly thought the torch timer thing would be a dumb gimmick that we would not use, but we tried it, and to my surprise my players enjoyed it.
Nice to hear some actual play reports of the system. One of my concerns on it is that it was tested a lot at cons so I worry it works well for low levels/one shots, but not for long term campaigns. I'll be curious to hear more if the level 10 limit is an issue or if wizards sort of break down as they level up and get a lot of spells they can cast, since there isn't a spell slot system.
For me AD&D was such a great system because it could handle campaigns that'd last through years of play.
I have zero interest in Shadowdark, but for me, these last few comments sum up what I want in a system: Fast play that I can tinker with a bit without breaking it along with the depth to sustain longer campaigns and different play styles. I already have that in B/X and Castles & Crusades. But if others prefer Shadowdark for these reasons, good for them.
I want to hear more about the "torch timer" in actual play because that's the ONE thing about Shadowdark that's given me pause. Why not just buy lots of torches, scrolls of light, etc?
However, the vitriol against this game seems a tad odd to me. Every OSR game is going to be "glorified houserules" slapped onto B/X or AD&D frame. That's kinda the general definition of the OSR.
As an OD&D fan, I don't NEED any other fantasy RPG, but I'm always open to something new and cool if it adds some new dimension to actual gameplay.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on June 11, 2024, 01:16:54 AMSeems she just shifted from growing the community to engaging the community, which makes sense for someone who does care about the players more than the money.
I've been going through Designers & Dragons and in the 80s volume he specifically said one of the companies (I don't remember which, some game I never played) did just that with their own community and the community loved it but it led to their eventual irrelevance and end of the company. The same thing nearly happened to Columbia Games as well (but Columbia apparently pulled out by selling on Drivethru in the period after the one covered by the books).
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:31:58 PMHowever, the vitriol against this game seems a tad odd to me. Every OSR game is going to be "glorified houserules" slapped onto B/X or AD&D frame. That's kinda the general definition of the OSR.
Maybe I'm the wrong person to answer this, since I don't actually hate the game. Personally I just find it mystifying that "slightly houseruled Basic D&D" is worth millions of dollars. If I was going to speculate on the perspective of someone who does hate it, it essentially boils down to drama. A few factors:
--1. people are likely to resent when something that they think is unworthy is more successful than things they think deserve the recognition.
--2. The marketing really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. YouTubers that a lot of people respected like DungeonCraft and Runehammer essentially outed themselves as willing to go over the top to shill a friend's product, which is always a bad look. That burned a lot of people's perceptions of these personalities, which is going to leave a bad taste in the mouth.
--3. Some of the game's defenders exhibit a frankly weird tendency to act as if the author is a personal friend and treat any criticism of the game as an attack on her. It comes across as simping, and I think the defenders accidentally cast her into the "fake gamer girl" stereotype by doing it.
Separately, I want to take issue with the idea that OSR games are inevitably going to be reskins of old D&D editions. A lot of them are, but I used to think the point of the OSR was to take those old games as a basis to build something new on. Machinations of the Space Princess, Lion & Dragon, Helveczia, Stars Without Number and The Hero's Journey are all games that most people would call OSR, and I would say are much more than just "glorified houserules slapped onto B/X or AD&D frame". Personally, I'd rather see more of that from the OSR.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:31:58 PMI want to hear more about the "torch timer" in actual play because that's the ONE thing about Shadowdark that's given me pause. Why not just buy lots of torches, scrolls of light, etc?
I'm probably like you. I find real-time torch timers as a weird and illogical rule. To me I would treat it as an optional rule, and immediately opt to never use it.
From the reports of people who have tried torch timers it is surprisingly popular and they recommend others give it a go.
So, am I reconsidering using real-time torch tracking? Hell no. It's still weird and illogical to me and I will not use it.
Been lurking a long time, finally decided to post to jump into this discussion.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:31:58 PMI want to hear more about the "torch timer" in actual play because that's the ONE thing about Shadowdark that's given me pause. Why not just buy lots of torches, scrolls of light, etc?
I sort of get where you guys are coming from, that a "real-time" torch timer sounds stupid, illogical, etc. I will tell you from my experience playing since 1983, none of my groups ever really played hardcore torchlight rules. Like rations and encumbrance, it usually (not always) got chucked out the window to make room for "fun". Not everyone will agree. There are a million styles of play.
So, GMing Shadowdark for my family in the last month, we use the torch rule. I set a 1 hour timer on my phone when they light a torch or cast Light, and that's it. It's really simple. Basically, everyone forgets about it unless something specifically happens to the light (a monster like a darkmantle makes it go out, a carrion crawler bee-lines for it and snatches it out of their hand, etc.). Otherwise, the timer goes off in the middle of whatever they are doing. More often than not, it goes out at the worst time, like in combat. One time it went out at a time and place in a module that specifically had bad consequences for losing the light. It adds a strategic element to the game, for very little investment (setting a timer on your phone), that would otherwise be missing from many non-hardcore, non-simulationist games.
Someone above said, why not just buy a crap ton of torches? Well, you could, but your inventory is limited. And even then, when it goes out, you have to light a new one, and that's done at disadvantage in the dark unless you're a thief. Yes, you can houserule it to say you light the next before the last goes out or whatever. You're free to ignore it any any other rule in any system.
I'm not entirely sure why people are so turned off by it. Is it because you think you'll only get through 2-3 rounds in 1 real time hour so it isn't lasting long enough to be realistic? Is it because you want to be more simulationist? I'm a little puzzled. If it's the simulationist thing, then yeah rules-light systems aren't going to be for you. Why would torches in a fantasy medieval world all last exactly 10 turns or whatever in D&D? Are they coming off of some industrialized factory floor that is ensuring each and every torch is exactly the same shape and size and contains the exact same amount of pitch and sap? Maybe that's weird to play that way.
I also frequently see the complaint that it isn't doing anything new, and is just good presentation. Isn't that exactly what everyone was lauding OSE for all these years? It's just B/X but great presentation.
Anyway, the long and short of it is that the ruleset is very streamlined and plays very intuitively and fast at the table. I've played various incarnations of D&D/C&C/OSE rules with my family, and when we switched to Shadowdark this summer, my kids told me they were relieved to not have to remember so many rules and different mechanics. It has its place, it just may not be at your table.
A lot of the illogical aspects of a torch timer is that combat goes way slower when rolling dice and describing it than it actually should.
Also, I bet the GM is not describing the condition of the torch that a character is holding to the player as you play. That's something the character can't help but notice. The torch is right there. You would notice it getting low, sputtering out, etc.
So, no. I'm never going to use a torch timer.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 03, 2024, 09:38:15 AMA lot of the illogical aspects of a torch timer is that combat goes way slower when rolling dice and describing it than it actually should.
This is exactly my complaint. One minute of combat can take an hour to play out at the table.
Quote from: Khoram on July 03, 2024, 09:26:18 AMMore often than not, it goes out at the worst time, like in combat.
This isn't coincidence -- any real time mechanic will be heavily weighted towards going off in the middle of whatever takes the most real time at the table.
In general, that'll be the important bits -- torches in Shadowdark will go out at important moments, apparently by design.
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 03, 2024, 09:57:50 AMQuote from: weirdguy564 on July 03, 2024, 09:38:15 AMA lot of the illogical aspects of a torch timer is that combat goes way slower when rolling dice and describing it than it actually should.
This is exactly my complaint. One minute of combat can take an hour to play out at the table.
Have you played the ruleset? You had a minute of combat in Shadowdark take an hour at the table? Or you are using a different, crunchier ruleset for your mental calculation and transposing another system's light mechanic?
Quote from: Zalman on July 03, 2024, 10:11:36 AMThis isn't coincidence -- any real time mechanic will be heavily weighted towards going off in the middle of whatever takes the most real time at the table.
In general, that'll be the important bits -- torches in Shadowdark will go out at important moments, apparently by design.
I like that. I hadn't thought of it but that might change things.
Quote from: Khoram on July 03, 2024, 10:29:38 AMHave you played the ruleset? You had a minute of combat in Shadowdark take an hour at the table? Or you are using a different, crunchier ruleset for your mental calculation and transposing another system's light mechanic?
No I have not played Shadowdark, that is why I am asking questions. I can see how my comment might be read that way but that was not my intent. I own Shadowdark, think it's a beautiful game, but haven't played it and was really curious how the torches thing works out because it sounds gamey and forced. If it does cause torches to go out during combat (which it sounds like it does) and nobody has darkvision in the game that could be a big difference. Torches should go out during combat more often than they do (unless the torch holder is in the back staying out of combat).
Greetings!
Interesting! It seems like Jeremy at Black Magic Craft is also looking to embrace Shadowdark. Black Magic Craft has been a gamer forever, and definitely prefers a rough, "Metal" aesthetic in his gaming. Black Magic Craft has always liked exploring weird, blood-soaked dungeons with lots of monsters and fighting! *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings!
In Shadowdark, using the "Torch Timer" is easy. I have a sand-timer I keep by my DM Screen. The players always keep an eye on the shifting sands, draining away...
The Torch Timer adds a kind of resource to the game-play that brings with it a very important tactical dynamic. Being caught in the darkness has distinct disadvantages for the Player group. Players cannot just "Load Up" on torches, because of the encumbrance slots. Player Characters can only carry so much, and their limited space for gear also creates instant tension and dynamics of priorities.
Fights taking an hour? WTF? Fights are quick, brutal, and deadly! Anyone saying that fights in Shadowdark take an hour either have never played Shadowdark, or are doing something entirely wrong.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Khoram on July 03, 2024, 09:26:18 AMI sort of get where you guys are coming from, that a "real-time" torch timer sounds stupid, illogical, etc. I will tell you from my experience playing since 1983, none of my groups ever really played hardcore torchlight rules. Like rations and encumbrance, it usually (not always) got chucked out the window to make room for "fun". Not everyone will agree. There are a million styles of play.
I think that's part of the reason SD went to a timer.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 03, 2024, 09:38:15 AMAlso, I bet the GM is not describing the condition of the torch that a character is holding to the player as you play. That's something the character can't help but notice. The torch is right there. You would notice it getting low, sputtering out, etc.
Easily handled by use of a timer everyone at the table can see. There is everything from hourglass to digital ones that can easily be reset, and they're all cheap.
Quote from: SHARK on July 03, 2024, 04:03:25 PMGreetings!
In Shadowdark, using the "Torch Timer" is easy. I have a sand-timer I keep by my DM Screen. The players always keep an eye on the shifting sands, draining away...
The Torch Timer adds a kind of resource to the game-play that brings with it a very important tactical dynamic. Being caught in the darkness has distinct disadvantages for the Player group. Players cannot just "Load Up" on torches, because of the encumbrance slots. Player Characters can only carry so much, and their limited space for gear also creates instant tension and dynamics of priorities.
Fights taking an hour? WTF? Fights are quick, brutal, and deadly! Anyone saying that fights in Shadowdark take an hour either have never played Shadowdark, or are doing something entirely wrong.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
That visible sandglass would definitely help.
But when I'm a GM I won't be using torch timers.
Overall, it really is just a minor footnote rule, not a major game feature.
I'm more likely to have issues with Shadowdark's lack of classes in the main rule book. However, there are lots of downloadable classes that can be found on DTRPG, mostly free as well. Things like Crusaders and Hound Masters.
I like player classes. The more, the better.
Again, I started in Palladium. Rifts especially. It's got over a few hundred classes in Rifts alone (counting all source books), and Rifts technically can also include every Palladium game as well.
Shadowdark just stuck to the classic four, and I'm not that thrilled by just the basics.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 03, 2024, 06:36:26 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 03, 2024, 04:03:25 PMGreetings!
In Shadowdark, using the "Torch Timer" is easy. I have a sand-timer I keep by my DM Screen. The players always keep an eye on the shifting sands, draining away...
The Torch Timer adds a kind of resource to the game-play that brings with it a very important tactical dynamic. Being caught in the darkness has distinct disadvantages for the Player group. Players cannot just "Load Up" on torches, because of the encumbrance slots. Player Characters can only carry so much, and their limited space for gear also creates instant tension and dynamics of priorities.
Fights taking an hour? WTF? Fights are quick, brutal, and deadly! Anyone saying that fights in Shadowdark take an hour either have never played Shadowdark, or are doing something entirely wrong.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
That visible sandglass would definitely help.
But when I'm a GM I won't be using torch timers.
Overall, it really is just a minor footnote rule, not a major game feature.
I'm more likely to have issues with Shadowdark's lack of classes in the main rule book. However, there are lots of downloadable classes that can be found on DTRPG, mostly free as well. Things like Crusaders and Hound Masters.
I like player classes. The more, the better.
Again, I started in Palladium. Rifts especially. It's got over a few hundred classes in Rifts alone (counting all source books), and Rifts technically can also include every Palladium game as well.
Shadowdark just stuck to the classic four, and I'm not that thrilled by just the basics.
Greetings!
Well, Weirdguy564, you are of course, free to use or not use the torch limits as you desire. I recommend them, however, for the reasons I cited earlier.
As for classes provided in the Basic Rulebook, yeah, there are four Character Classes--Fighter, Priest, Mage and Thief. While *you* may prefer more classes in the Basic Rulebook--this is like nailing jello to a fucking wall. Legions of gamers, of experienced GM's, proclaim LOUDLY that "Stop whining, and suck it up, crybaby! Every class imaginable can be derived from the basic Character Classes!" *Laughing* You know that drill, right? I, myself, also enjoy lots of Character Classes!
And, the good thing is--there are *plenty* of additional Character Classes, provided as downloads and in the ZINES. Ranger, Bard, Gladiator, Seer, Witch, Assassin, Paladin, and Sea Wolf. That's a solid dozen Character Classes. I have since designed several additional Character Classes myself, for my world of Thandor. Knight Templar, Monastery Monk, Warrior Monk, Explorer, Artificer, Engineer, Temple Prostitute, Steppe Warrior, Alchemist, Merchant Adventurer, Witch Hunter, and Astrologer. Creating new Character Classes is *easy*--and takes a very modest amount of time to accomplish, though of course you can always devote more time to creating a particular, individual Character Class.
That is just it though, Weirdguy564--there are *plenty* of GM's that take the position of "Fuck that! I don't need all these crazy class options! Just give me the basic set, that's all I need!" So, there are diametrically different player or GM groups as it were, that Shadowdark seeks to embrace. With such divergent, convoluted interests often at odds with each other, Kelsey only has a limited number of page-count she is dealing with for a basic rule book, and thus, choices needed to be made. Any customer needs to accept that reality, whether they agree or not, it is nonetheless a very real dynamic when publishing a book.
Then, of course, there is the background of the OSR that she comes from, which celebrates a very DIY mindset. Any GM with a minimal experience basis should be able to create their own additional, special Character Classes that are especially tailored to their campaign milieu. Historically, that is one of the huge pleasures and rewards for any GM playing RPG's, especially OSR games.
The basic, official Character Classes provided should be reasonably sufficient for you, and as I mentioned, there is plenty of scope and room for YOU to add new creations designed to your own liking and preferences and tailored to your campaign milieu.
Shadowdark is a fantastic game, fun to play, and a joy to actually run as a GM!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Shadowdark was no more than the shiny red ball from last year. This year there will be something else. Gamer ADHD is real.