Quote from: Skywalker;821674In terms of value, its worth pointing out that the KS, at the current rate, looks set to provide a 256+ page full colour hardcover, 48 page companion PDF, 64+ pages of setting PDFs, 64+ pages of adventure PDFs. That's leaving aside any fiction and the QuickStart PDF.

And to get all those in pdf is $72, if I'm reading the kickstarter right, because that's the lowest pdf level to get the stretch goals.

And currently the book's only at 160 pages.

You can get that core book for $24 as a pdf, but I agree - seems pricey to me.  And it's $66 to get the core book as a physical book - which still seems pretty damn pricy to me even if the book does reach 256 pages.

Numenera costs $60 (ignoring Amazon for the moment), and that sucker's over 400 pages.

Quote from: jcfiala;821721And to get all those in pdf is $72, if I'm reading the kickstarter right, because that's the lowest pdf level to get the stretch goals.

TBH I didn't look at the PDF only levels. I was talking about the $90 level that gets you the book (with a $10 shipping credit). I agree that the $72 PDF level is overly expensive.

Quote from: jcfiala;821721And currently the book's only at 160 pages.

The KS is $6,000 and 1 achievement off being 224 pages.

And, by all estimates, hitting $100k to get to 256 pages is almost a certainty at this point. Its not like you can't withdraw your pledge if it didn't reach that level.

Quote from: jcfiala;821721And it's $66 to get the core book as a physical book - which still seems pretty damn pricy to me even if the book does reach 256 pages.

That $66 includes $10 shipping, 24 pages of adventure PDFs, and the 36 page Starter Guide PDF.

With all that, I am guessing the corebook by itself will retail at $40 to 50.

FWIW I am not saying that people can't see the KS as not providing enough value for $. In fact, I think the KS did a number of things to create a perception that the value is lower than it is. The most obvious ones are including a shipping credit in the pledge tiers and setting the page count so low at the start with both stretch goals and achievements to increase it. On saying that, the achievements idea is new and a pretty cool one IMO, so I am willing to see past it for what it is.

However, if look a little further, I think the value is comparable (leaving the $72 tier aside).

All the "Story Pack" pdfs are 3 single-session adventures.  With the listed expectation of "Stories are short, covering about one page per hour of expected play." those are 12-page pdfs probably.

All the Setting Expansion pdfs are 16 pages.

This is definitely a "wait until the last minute to see if all the goals amount to anything worthwhile" because currently this thing is a Frog-God level money grab at a twentieth the average Frog God page count.

Quote from: Skywalker;821777The KS is $6,000 and 1 achievement off being 224 pages.

Are we looking at the same page here?  It's at $63,997 as I type this, and at $70,000 the stretch goals says "192 page full color hardback".

Quote from: Skywalker;821777And, by all estimates, hitting $100k to get to 256 pages is almost a certainty at this point. Its not like you can't withdraw your pledge if it didn't reach that level.

No, the stretch goals say that at $100k it'll be a 224 page hardback.

Quote from: Skywalker;821777That $66 includes $10 shipping, 24 pages of adventure PDFs, and the 36 page Starter Guide PDF.

With all that, I am guessing the corebook by itself will retail at $40 to 50.

Where are these 24 pages of adventure PDFs listed?  I'm just seeing the ones in the stretch goals, and those shouldn't be given out unless you back at the $90 level.

Quote from: jcfiala;821796Are we looking at the same page here?  It's at $63,997 as I type this, and at $70,000 the stretch goals says "192 page full color hardback".

At 20 achievements, the book increases by 32 pages. We are currently at 19 achievements.

This one of the perception things I mentioned. Many people just don't read far past the first few paragraphs on the KS page. Achievements were a novel idea, essentially easily achievable stretch goals not tied to funding. As such, it was a given that the book would be 32 pages larger than initially stated, plus everyone would get an extra adventure. But people just didn't see this as it was toward the bottom of the page.

Quote from: jcfiala;821796Where are these 24 pages of adventure PDFs listed?  I'm just seeing the ones in the stretch goals, and those shouldn't be given out unless you back at the $90 level.

From halfway down the page:

QuoteTales of the Demon Lord is an approximately 22-page long PDF that includes five adventures for use with Shadow of the Demon Lord. The pack includes an adventure for starting characters, two stories for novice characters, one story for expert characters, and one for master characters.

There is also the free adventure from 10 achievements which should take it past 24 pages.

Oh and I missed that every backer at $24 or higher gets the 48 page Demon Lord Companion PDF too. So, $66 gets you:

- 224 page hardcover rulebook (highly likely to be 256 pages);
- 48 page Demon Lord Companion PDF
- 24 pages of adventures PDF
- 36 page Start Guide PDF
- $10 shipping

Quote from: Skywalker;821800At 20 achievements, the book increases by 32 pages. We are currently at 19 achievements.

This one of the perception things I mentioned. Many people just don't read far past the first few paragraphs on the KS page. Achievements were a novel idea, essentially easily achievable stretch goals not tied to funding. As such, it was a given that the book would be 32 pages larger than initially stated, plus everyone would get an extra adventure. But people just didn't see this.

Huh.  I'm not used to achivements.  My bad.  That said, it looks like most of the low-hanging fruit of achievements have already been hit.

Quote from: Skywalker;821800From halfway down the page:

Tales of the Demon Lord...

There is also the free adventure from 10 achievements.

Again, I didn't see the bit about achievements.  And from the title I assumed "Tales of the Demon Lord" was a book of short stories.  Boy, this isn't an easy kickstarter to back unless you really read over every little bit.

Quote from: Skywalker;821800And I missed that every backer at $24 or higher gets the 48 page Demon Lord Companion PDF too.

Fair enough.  Looks like you've got a much better handle on the kickstarter than I do.

That said, I still think it's too expensive.  But that's fine - they're obviously collecting lots of backers who don't think it's too expensive, and after the kickstarter is over I can wait and see how and for how much the books and pdfs are put up for sale and pick it up then.

Quote from: jcfiala;821807Huh.  I'm not used to achivements.  My bad.  That said, it looks like most of the low-hanging fruit of achievements have already been hit.

Yep, they are a novel idea. I hope we see them more.

We only need 1 more achievement. We have 4 out of 5 videos of Demon Lord Pledges and Gary Con should wrap up the DL T-Shirt pics. Regardless of those, 1,000 backers is a given at this stage, as is 500 Twitter followers.

30 achievements is never going to happen though on the current numbers.

Quote from: jcfiala;821807That said, I still think it's too expensive.  But that's fine - they're obviously collecting lots of backers who don't think it's too expensive, and after the kickstarter is over I can wait and see how and for how much the books and pdfs are put up for sale and pick it up then.

That's cool. There are definitely perception issues regarding value with this KS that I think could have been done better.

More information on paths: http://schwalbentertainment.com/2015/03/23/kickstarter-choose-your-path/

And on spells: http://schwalbentertainment.com/2015/03/24/kickstarter-traditions-spells/

Hot damn, those spells look awesome fun. I love Part Bones from Flesh:

QuotePart Bone from Flesh

Choose one living creature within medium range of you. If the target has a skeleton, make an Intellect attack roll against the target’s Strength score. On a success, the target takes 4d6 damage from the twisting and wrenching of its bones. If you rolled a 20 on the die, the target takes 2d6 extra damage.

If the damage incapacitates the target, it dies. The creature’s bones animate to become a skeleton that tears free from the flesh and attacks the nearest creature to it each round until it is destroyed.

Quote from: Skywalker;821812Hot damn, those spells look awesome fun. I love Part Bones from Flesh:

I gotta say, that is pretty metal.

There are also two page spread for the Novice Paths:

Cults of the Empires unlocked, and in grand WFRP1e style Imperial Gnomes are added Takes me back to the day I bought that White Dwarf.

Next SG is the big one with hardcover and +32 pages.

Bah! All your optimism can't change one major flaw - you have to pledge $72 to get any Stretch Goals, which is the standard bread and butter Kickstarter measure of worth. (and that's without any physical product).

Rob shot himself in the foot a bit with all these achievements that while nice (and in some cases hilarious) are new and there's nowhere on the KS page where someone can get a roundup of $X = Y Product listing.

Achievements = Good Idea
Achievements not properly added into all KS levels so people can easily know exactly what they're getting = Good Idea Implemented Poorly.

Hell Luke, make up a list yourself, keep updating and send it to Rob so he can just paste it in.

Quote from: CRKrueger;822062Bah! All your optimism can't change one major flaw - you have to pledge $90 to get any Stretch Goals, which is the standard bread and butter Kickstarter measure of worth.

Mostly accurate Those below $72 for PDF and $90 for Print have still received the following additional things as the funding rises:

1. Increases in the page count of the book;
2. The Demon Lord Companion PDF, which was 32 pages and is now 48 pages; and
3. The adventure from the achievements.

Quote from: CRKrueger;822062Rob shot himself in the foot a bit with all these achievements that while nice (and in some cases hilarious) are new and there's nowhere on the KS page where someone can get a roundup of $X = Y Product listing.

I agree that the KS has perception issues. Hopefully Rob's second KS will learn from this one.

But we still have over half the KS to go. After GaryCon, which Rob is attending, I expect we will see an update to the infographic as well as the various stretch goals split up as add-on options.

Quote from: CRKrueger;822062Achievements = Good Idea
Achievements not properly added into all KS levels so people can easily know exactly what they're getting = Good Idea Implemented Poorly.

Achievements do add to all KS levels.

Quote from: Skywalker;822069Achievements do add to all KS levels.

Right, but the problem is the KS Level says

"Follower of Demon Whoever" - you get a 180 page book.

not

"Follower of Demon Whoever" - you get a 180 page book (now expanded to 224 pages, plus a 48 page companion book thanks to Achievements)