Reading about the new edition of Eclipse Phase, it made me something click for me, something I've always felt about the hobby.

Don't you think there is a tension between these two aspects, Setting and Game? I mean, on one side we have those sprawling scenarios full of interesting ideas, concepts, characters, regions, cultures, stories and past histories to explore. On the other we have gaming systems that are inherently focused, as every system is, due to the scopes and goals they're naturally chained to. Which begs the question: why are we being feed these thick setting books exposing a huge lot of detailes from the dialects it's peoples talk, to the correct form a culture member takes a crap, to the exact atmospheric composition a specific space habitat have.. when the system acompannying it is usually poorly equipped to explore these things in any manner whatsoever?

It seems to me the ratio of explorable pre-made setting content is kinda low. Let's take Shadowrun for eg. a game which I know lots of folks here have familiarity. It's setting is vast, with hundreds of years of history, with almost all facets detailed, social, political, biological, physical, meta-physical, etc. And what it's system do? Tactical Dungeon Crawling. Yeah, you heard it. You have sourcebooks detailing how a megacorp operates on a strategical level, how a governing body like the Native American Nations organize themselves, while the game's rules does dungeon crawling.  Now, there are systems that try to have a wider scope as to be generic/universal but I personaly don't believe they achieve this goal. Take Gurps for eg. It's so granular that on high level (supers?) the whole things breaks apart. And it's combat is so plastered that I could never see it doing a pulp/cinematic action right.

By this logic, I think the best RPGs are the more "gameable" ones, that is, those focusing on exploring the gaming part, as opposed to exploring settings. Those that come with a vague "implicit setting" or premise, and just gives brush strokes on the world out there, and let the players color the rest on their own. Like the OSR, or D&D without setting books (or with ones like Dark Sun 1e, or maybe just the Wanderer Journal! ). Or Beyond the Wall. Or Dogs in the Vineyards. Or the old Runequest books that inspired more than defined things, in contrast to new ones that seem obsessive with (ungameable) fluff.

But then I may just be frustrated at Eclipse Phase, because I find it a pretty interesting setting themes-wise, but a poorly "gameable" one.

Thoughts? Please forgive the words as I'm a non-native. Try to capture it's spirit instead of it's form, if possible.

Quote from: Itachi;971176Reading about the new edition of Eclipse Phase, it made me something click for me, something I've always felt about the hobby.

Don't you think there is a tension between these two aspects, Setting and Game?

No.
Or rather, to the extent that there is such, I easily resolve it by the game losing to the setting:).
But usually, when people are talking about such "tension", they mean the setting doesn't support their preferred mode of play. So I just tune the complaints out.

QuoteI mean, on one side we have those sprawling scenarios full of interesting ideas, concepts, characters, regions, cultures, stories and past histories to explore.

Yes, and it's a good thing.

QuoteOn the other we have gaming systems that are inherently focused, as every system is, due to the scopes and goals they're naturally chained to.

What are the scopes and goals that D&D, Reign and Skulduggery RPG are all chained to?
Or do you mean that they're chained to different goals? In that case: yes, a system/setting mismatch is possible. But it only means another system might be better.

QuoteWhich begs the question: why are we being feed these thick setting books exposing a huge lot of detailes from the dialects it's peoples talk, to the correct form a culture member takes a crap, to the exact atmospheric composition a specific space habitat have.. when the system acompannying it is usually poorly equipped to explore these things in any manner whatsoever?

Because it's not the system that explores those things.
It's the characters and players.

QuoteIt seems to me the ratio of explorable pre-made setting content is kinda low. Let's take Shadowrun for eg. a game which I know lots of folks here have familiarity. It's setting is vast, with hundreds of years of history, with almost all facets detailed, social, political, biological, physical, meta-physical, etc. And what it's system do? Tactical Dungeon Crawling. Yeah, you heard it. You have sourcebooks detailing how a megacorp operates on a strategical level, how a governing body like the Native American Nations organize themselves, while the game's rules does dungeon crawling.

Yeah, Shadowrun is a great mismatch of setting and system, got to agree. It might have used a system for organisations...
Then again, I'd rather tack the organisational part of Reign Enchiridion's system on it, and suddenly those runs you do have tangible, system-level changes (which also help a new Referee to present the effect of your actions). That is, if I liked the setting itself, which is not the case - I just can appreciate the amount of effort that went into it.
(But elves are only acceptable in my cyberpunk if we start by global elfocide:D!)

QuoteNow, there are systems that try to have a wider scope as to be generic/universal but I personaly don't believe they achieve this goal. Take Gurps for eg. It's so granular that on high level (supers?) the whole things breaks apart. And it's combat is so plastered that I could never see it doing a pulp/cinematic action right.

Systems that try to be universal usually just mean you can use them for multiple settings as they don't have setting-related dials, or said dials are changeable. GURPS achieves that.

QuoteBy this logic, I think the best RPGs are the more "gameable" ones, that is, those focusing on exploring the gaming part, as opposed to exploring settings. Those that come with a vague "implicit setting" or premise, and just gives brush strokes on the world out there, and let the players color the rest on their own.

Since those pretty much put me to sleep, I strongly disagree;)!
If I have to paint in the holes of your "broad-brushed" setting, what is my reason to use your game, at all? I have Mythras for fantasy, you're unlikely to beat that as a system. I've got other systems for other kinds of games. What does your game bring to the table?
OTOH, I wouldn't even dream of using Mythras in Spellbound Kingdoms. The system and setting are really intertwined, there. Strive to achieve the same.

QuoteLike the OSR, or D&D without setting books (or with ones like Dark Sun 1e, or maybe just the Wanderer Journal! ).

Good, then what does your game add to it?

QuoteOr Beyond the Wall.

Adds a cool magic system and chargen system. But I still have to supply the setting.

QuoteOr Dogs in the Vineyards.

Makes me asleep.

QuoteOr the old Runequest books that inspired more than defined things, in contrast to new ones that seem obsessive with (ungameable) fluff.

Never seen a Runequest book with ungameable fluff, and I've seen mostly the new ones. Your examples are kinda falling flat.

QuoteBut then I may just be frustrated at Eclipse Phase, because I find it a pretty interesting setting themes-wise, but a poorly "gameable" one.

I'm afraid that seems to be the case, yes.

QuoteThoughts? Please forgive the words as I'm a non-native. Try to capture it's spirit instead of it's form, if possible.

First and foremost: I disagree with the idea.

Utterly false dichotomy.  I don't need rules to explore to say "I want to hire a boat and sail over there."

It requires both a referee and players with intelligence and imagination, though, and that's a lot harder to find.

Shadowrun has an extremely focused default mode of play...and it's trivial to move past, just like it's trivial to move past dungeoncrawling in D&D.  If you can't do anything without rules, then Shadowrun later included through supplements:

• Detailed Rules for being a Rocker
• Detailed Rules for being a Journalist
• Detailed Rules for being a Simsense Star
• Detailed Rules for being a Paramedic
• Detailed Rules for being a Law Enforcement Officer
• Detailed Rules for Corporations and how Shadowrunners can affect corporate rankings, effects of stock, etc.
• Detailed Rules for being a modern Pirate/Smuggler

I mean, the original book had a short story about a guy who infiltrates a gang and manipulates his gang into a gang war with another gang so he can eliminate the leader in the chaos and move up the ranks.  Do we need detailed rules for gangs influence and ratings to play this out otherwise we have a "clash of setting and system"?

At some point the GM has to do some damn GMing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;971198Utterly false dichotomy.  I don't need rules to explore to say "I want to hire a boat and sail over there."

It requires both a referee and players with intelligence and imagination, though, and that's a lot harder to find.

The assertion in the first sentence is true.

The second sentence is just needless, bullshit crustiness (albeit, not unexpected).

He's right. It's a false dichotomy. The OP may be overthinking all this?

Quote from: cranebump;971208The assertion in the first sentence is true.

The second sentence is just needless, bullshit crustiness (albeit, not unexpected).

He's right. It's a false dichotomy. The OP may be overthinking all this?

The second sentence is deliberately inflammatory, and coming from Gronan we can expect a healthy Brady threadcrap anytime now.

Still, there is a point to be made, even if he uses a sledgehammer where the touch of a needle would suffice.

Arguing about someone's capacity for intelligence and imagination is silly, but a point could be made that a steady diet of do-it-yourselfism GMing and open, more free campaigns could foster imagination and creative thinking more than a steady diet of pre-packaged linear Adventure Path consumer content.

There's a way to actually have a conversation about how best to foster that creative thinking though, and Gronan's not in a conversation having mood today it seems by the last few posts.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971212The second sentence is deliberately inflammatory, and coming from Gronan we can expect a healthy Brady threadcrap anytime now.

Still, there is a point to be made, even if he uses a sledgehammer where the touch of a needle would suffice.

Arguing about someone's capacity for intelligence and imagination is silly, but a point could be made that a steady diet of do-it-yourselfism GMing and open, more free campaigns could foster imagination and creative thinking more than a steady diet of pre-packaged linear Adventure Path consumer content.

There's a way to actually have a conversation about how best to foster that creative thinking though, and Gronan's not in a conversation having mood today it seems by the last few posts.

I'd call it thinly-disguised onetruewayism, though I agree that Geezer is particularly pissed off lately about "kids these days and their stupid stupidness." (as noted in the thread about megadungeons, wherein we blame the shitty GMs for not "running things right" {which is the same shit I've heard 4vengers say if you took issue with their system}]).

While there could be a discussion about what style best serves "GM creativity," I'm not sure this particular thread is the place to broach it. Then again,it's the RPGsite, so...there it is...

(On the comments about Adventure Paths, I am in agreement that, if a player/GM begins and ends there, they're not getting the most out of the game. That said, if they're getting what they want out of the game, what difference does it make? Gronan's comments amount to a basketball fan bitching about the Golden State Warriors not setting enough picks on their way to bumrushing the championship. Style is style, man--people have different ones. My advice, were it solicited, would be  that, if someone is so all-fired pissed off about D&D'ers having shitty notions about how to "really" play the game, to recruit some new players and introduce them to your style. You can't know what you're missing if you don't know of it in the first place).

Quote from: CRKrueger;971200Shadowrun has an extremely focused default mode of play...and it's trivial to move past, just like it's trivial to move past dungeoncrawling in D&D.  If you can't do anything without rules, then Shadowrun later included through supplements:

• Detailed Rules for being a Rocker
• Detailed Rules for being a Journalist
• Detailed Rules for being a Simsense Star
• Detailed Rules for being a Paramedic
• Detailed Rules for being a Law Enforcement Officer
• Detailed Rules for Corporations and how Shadowrunners can affect corporate rankings, effects of stock, etc.
• Detailed Rules for being a modern Pirate/Smuggler

OK, I admit I didn't know that.
I wonder whether these came before or after the similar sourcebooks for CP2020:).

QuoteI mean, the original book had a short story about a guy who infiltrates a gang and manipulates his gang into a gang war with another gang so he can eliminate the leader in the chaos and move up the ranks.  Do we need detailed rules for gangs influence and ratings to play this out otherwise we have a "clash of setting and system"?

There are games that have those;).
And my point is that if you want or need such rules* to properly run a setting...there are games that have those. It might not be the game that comes pre-packaged with the setting, but that's probably because the author didn't think such rules necessary, and not because "all systems are bound to be inclined towards personal combat".

*Say, because you don't understand how the world of gangs operates - no shame in that.

QuoteAt some point the GM has to do some damn GMing.

And now we know that if you were writing a cyberpunk game, you'd be one of those authors that don't think to put a system for gang influence:D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;971212The second sentence is deliberately inflammatory, and coming from Gronan we can expect a healthy Brady threadcrap anytime now.

Still, there is a point to be made, even if he uses a sledgehammer where the touch of a needle would suffice.

Arguing about someone's capacity for intelligence and imagination is silly, but a point could be made that a steady diet of do-it-yourselfism GMing and open, more free campaigns could foster imagination and creative thinking more than a steady diet of pre-packaged linear Adventure Path consumer content.

There's a way to actually have a conversation about how best to foster that creative thinking though, and Gronan's not in a conversation having mood today it seems by the last few posts.

I fucked up my right shoulder and it hurts like hell and I haven't had a good night's sleep in over a week.

How do you "foster" creative thinking?  62 years of life have led me to conclude that people are either creative or not.  Though I suppose telling people "hey, make up some shit you think would be fun" might free up somebody who grew up thinking that the rules are the only permitted things.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971212The second sentence is deliberately inflammatory, and coming from Gronan we can expect a healthy Brady threadcrap anytime now.

Still, there is a point to be made, even if he uses a sledgehammer where the touch of a needle would suffice.

Arguing about someone's capacity for intelligence and imagination is silly, but a point could be made that a steady diet of do-it-yourselfism GMing and open, more free campaigns could foster imagination and creative thinking more than a steady diet of pre-packaged linear Adventure Path consumer content.

There's a way to actually have a conversation about how best to foster that creative thinking though, and Gronan's not in a conversation having mood today it seems by the last few posts.

I fucked up my right shoulder and it hurts like hell and I haven't had a good night's sleep in over a week.

How do you "foster" creative thinking?  62 years of life have led me to conclude that people are either creative or not.  Though I suppose telling people "hey, make up some shit you think would be fun" might free up somebody who grew up thinking that the rules are the only permitted things.

Also, Clark's First and Second Laws exist for a reason.

I often find reading the details of how others organize themselves creatively to be useful. When I write about myself I try to present it as A way not as THE way.

Quote from: AsenRG;971221And now we know that if you were writing a cyberpunk game, you'd be one of those authors that don't think to put a system for gang influence:D!

Maybe I thought the GM should make that stuff on their own, since me doing it would be telling the GM how gangs work in his setting.  Maybe I thought the subject was better covered in a "Gang Book" and I didn't want the Core Rules to be 968 pages.

The point is, whether I did or didn't, it doesn't mean we have a clash between Setting and System.  The setting includes Shadowrunners, the game is named Shadowrun, not Earthdawn: The Sixth World or The SIMS: Cyberpunk Fantasy Seattle.

You may as well shovel the horseshit that because Cyberpunk 2020 doesn't have OOC metagame narrative story rules for running a Case and Molly romance it's betraying Gibson.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971212a point could be made that a steady diet of do-it-yourselfism GMing and open, more free campaigns could foster imagination and creative thinking more than a steady diet of pre-packaged linear Adventure Path consumer content.

This is more or less what I tried to say, thanks.

After almost 30 years of gaming, I'm starting to see big ultra-detailed settings as a waste of time/energy/potential that could be better applied in the act of gaming (that is, immediately gameable resources, rules, ideas, whatever), or just slimmed down in the name of brevity or cohesion. What matters at a gaming table is the play. And a 300 pages setting enters in the way of actual play since at the least it will require players to spend time studying it and in worst case it will be a learning curve so high it may hinder actual play (since each player may come with his own interpretation/understanding of it). RQ/Glorantha encapsulate better what I'm trying to say, I think. The old booklets (say, Borderlands) were immediately playable, while these days we have so much chaff (say, Guide to Gloranta) that one must first dig into big (sometimes humongous) amounts of content before start playing.

Thus, I think both the OSR, and these new games that mix different influences in name of immediate play (like Beyond the Wall or Dungeon World), hit a soft spot for me that the
"setting-based" gaming of the 90s and early 2000s don't. I have family and kids and don't want to spend hours comprehending your setting ultra-detailed history meta-plot or whatever. Just give me easy of use materials and evocative/inspiring thems and ideas, and let us create our own details and meta-plots while playing.

Makes sense?

I don't need rules to explore setting elements, but I do need to be given ideas for making use of the material (inner workings of Corporations or high level political shenanigans, say).

A lot of 1990s material actually says "Be sure to keep this stuff out of the hands of your players! Don't let them mess with these Important Events or affect these Vital NPCs!" - ie it does the opposite of what any decent right-minded GM should be looking for.