For convenience, I'm going to assume a sort of "Arabian Nights" Mideast setting. Pretty low tech at this point, say late Bronze Age to early Iron. Assumption: Magic works. People know about it and have varying opinions of it. But it's not very reliable. Or rather, it hasn't been until recently. You see, magic requires willpower, emotion, creativity, and extreme precision. The last is the hard part. Living things, humans especially, aren't generally all that great at precision. But recently, say within the last thirty to fifty years, some bright spark's found a way around the problem: using tools. Basically, magicians can cast spells reliably if they use appropriately prepared tools. Without them, spell casting is harder, takes longer, is less reliable, and has a vastly greater risk of blowing up in your face. A tool's limits are determined by its mass, its material strength, and its intricacy. More intricate things can channel more sophisticated effects; larger and tougher things can channel more energy. For a pair of deliberately extreme examples, a piece of coarse cloth the size of a handkerchief could be used to levitate a small rock. A sixty foot tall bronze idol, sculpted in exquisite detail, decorated with symbols, jewels, paints and enamels, could be used to cast a healing spell to cleanse an entire city of a plague.
So, given that this is a recent development, what effects might this development have on the course of civilization? Most tools will be fairly small, for practical reasons: Wands and jewelry, possibly embroidered robes. The really *big* stuff would likely be kept in sanctums and temples.
I can't really reconcile "Arabian Nights" and "Bronze Age".
I mean, "Arabian Nights", it's Medieval Islamic culture (even though the stories do contain pre-Islamic elements). It's wise Caliphs, scheming viziers, smart princesses, inscrutable djinn, adventurous barbers, the bustling market of Baghdad, flying carpets and gruff mamelukes with bigass scimitars. It's roughly maybe the X.-XII. century, coinciding with the European High Middle Ages. It's not even the Iron Age, it's the Tempered Steel Age for lack of a better name.
The Bronze Age, at least in the Middle East, is the 33rd to the 12th century BC. It ended more than two thousand years before the world of the Arabian Nights existed. It's Mesopotamia, it's mankind stepping out from the dark into the light of civilisation and building the first cities of the word (well, -ish), it's Babylon, the Assyrian Empire, Ancient Egypt with its animal-headed gods, and the horse-drawn chariot being the cutting edge in weapons technology.
These two worlds are very, very far away from each other, but you just mesh them together with a casual remark. It's like saying "It's our present-day world, but it's also Julius Caesar's Rome". I think this needs more work, and a more thorough sales pitch, if you want players or other people to buy into it.
Well, I chose the term "Arabian Nights" to suggest a bustling Middle Eastern culture and at least semi-civilized setting without tying it too strongly to a specific real-world culture such as Assyria or Egypt. But that's a bit beside the point, which is the discussion of the proposed magic system and its effects.
An addendum: the more specialized a tool is, the more effective it is for its purpose.
Quote from: Premier;873394I can't really reconcile "Arabian Nights" and "Bronze Age".
Me neither.
That said, since the "discovery" of how to reliably do magic has only occurred in the last 30-50 years i.e. 1-2 generations how it occurred is going to have a big effect on what effect it has on the culture. For example, if it was discovered 30 years ago by a cranky and solitary old mage with only two apprentices the affect so far may be pretty much nil.
On the other hand, if it was discovered 50 years ago by magical researchers supported by a "Song Dynasty China" which has just come under the reign of an Emperor who wants to conquer the world then I'd expect world changing effects as the Emperor's magic equipped, all-conquering armies sally forth from the heart of the Empire.
On yet another hand
Spoiler
(http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/goldenvoyage.jpg)
if magic was discovered in one of the Arabian city states and then quickly stolen by one or more other city states, we might see rival cities with their court magicians acting as advisers or vizers to the Caliph or Sultan and a series of artisanal magics of various kinds arising based on the individual artistic temperament and genius of a given caster.
So it really depends on how you envision the discovery and immediate dissemination of knowledge occurred.
Quote from: Bren;873403Me neither.
That said, since the "discovery" of how to reliably do magic has only occurred in the last 30-50 years i.e. 1-2 generations how it occurred is going to have a big effect on what effect it has on the culture. For example, if it was discovered 30 years ago by a cranky and solitary old mage with only two apprentices the affect so far may be pretty much nil.
On the other hand, if it was discovered 50 years ago by magical researchers supported by a "Song Dynasty China" which has just come under the reign of an Emperor who wants to conquer the world then I'd expect world changing effects as the Emperor's magic equipped, all-conquering armies sally forth from the heart of the Empire.
On yet another hand Spoiler
(http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/goldenvoyage.jpg)
So it really depends on how you envision the discovery and immediate dissemination of knowledge occurred.
The Golden Voyage of Sinbad. Great movie, hugely entertaining. As for dissemination: I'm assuming that one person made the discovery, and it's been spreading fairly slowly since. The tools are not enough: they're enormously useful, all but essential in fact, but in themselves, they do nothing. A soldier with a fireball wand and no magical talent or training is just a soldier with a fancy stick. The magician still needs to knows what he's trying to do (or she, as the case may be - society might care but magic doesn't) and how to do it.
Since "Arabian Nights" and "Bronze Age" are more or less incompatible terms, what might be a good alternative to "Arabian Nights" to suggest the kind of low tech Middle Eastern setting I have in mind?
Quote from: Whitewings;873398An addendum: the more specialized a tool is, the more effective it is for its purpose.
Why are claw hammers so popular?
Disseminated how?
- Why doesn't the inventor keep the knowledge secret?
- On the other hand, why didn't someone discover it sooner, say by napping flint or carving antelope horns in the neolithic?
- Is someone teaching others and if so why are they willing to do that and at what price?
- Or are others observing the one guy who did the inventing and then trying to mimic what he or she did?
- What kind of magic were the mages doing before some bright guy or gal discovered tool use?
Quote from: Whitewings;873407Since "Arabian Nights" and "Bronze Age" are more or less incompatible terms, what might be a good alternative to "Arabian Nights" to suggest the kind of low tech Middle Eastern setting I have in mind?
I think the problem I am having is that I don't understand what setting you do have in mind. I'm pretty sure there were markets in the Middle East from at least the time of Gilgamesh through the Babylon of Hammurabi, Assyria, Phoenicia, Persia, the Alexandrian successor states, Roman towns, Islamic Conquest, and the actual Arabian Nights time frame.
Quote from: Lunamancer;873411Why are claw hammers so popular?
Because they get two attacks: 1 claw and 1 hammer.
During the reign of Frobwit the Flatter (701-727 GUE), the art and science of Thaumaturgy flourished. The first reliable Incantation Device, known to scholars as the Hyperbolic Incantation Concentrator, was produced at the Thaumaturgical Institute in 723 GUE. The long, thin, portable device, nicknamed the "magic wand" by the lay press, became an instant sensation among the populace, and gained a certain measure of respect for the fledgling science.
A major advance in Thaumaturgy occurred when Davmar, working in newly-crowned King Mumberthrax Flathead's laboratory, discovered a means by which Incantation could be stored on special Presence-imbued paper. These so-called scrolls were found, however, to be destroyed during the spells' Incantation. Nonetheless, scrolls soon replaced the temperamental and poorly-understood "wand" as the primary means of Incantation.
The problem of imbuing Presence became a deterrent to the rapid growth of magical science. The creation of a single powerful scroll could take literally months for even the most creative and productive thaumaturge. This roadblock prevented the widespread use of magic for generations.
Read More At http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/infocom/shipped-documentation/enchanter.txt (http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/infocom/shipped-documentation/enchanter.txt)
Quote from: Bren;873412Disseminated how?
- Why doesn't the inventor keep the knowledge secret?
- On the other hand, why didn't someone discover it sooner, say by napping flint or carving antelope horns in the neolithic?
- Is someone teaching others and if so why are they willing to do that and at what price?
- Or are others observing the one guy who did the inventing and then trying to mimic what he or she did?
- What kind of magic were the mages doing before some bright guy or gal discovered tool use?
I think the problem I am having is that I don't understand what setting you do have in mind. I'm pretty sure there were markets in the Middle East from at least the time of Gilgamesh through the Babylon of Hammurabi, Assyria, Phoenicia, Persia, the Alexandrian successor states, Roman towns, Islamic Conquest, and the actual Arabian Nights time frame.
Well, I'm trying to come up with a term that would indicate "more-or-less Middle Eastern" but doesn't tie expectations too strongly to a specific culture.
1) He probably tried.
2) The same question could be asked about almost anything. Nobody discovered it earlier because nobody did. Perhaps Bronze Age is the lowest tech level at which magical tools can be made with sufficient precision to be useful.
3) Probably, as part of an apprenticeship
4) Very likely. Once something is demonstrated, reverse engineering is nearly inevitable. This ties in with 1.
5) Slow, painstakingly careful, heavily ritualized, and prone to blowing up in one's face if you rush things or mess up.
Quote from: Whitewings;873416Well, I'm trying to come up with a term that would indicate "more-or-less Middle Eastern" but doesn't tie expectations too strongly to a specific culture.
Can't help you there. I've no clue what "more-or-less Middle Eastern" is. I'm more of a specific cultures kind of guy.
Starting with an undefined culture and asking how it changes is pretty difficult to answer. I think you are approaching this backwards. Why not decide what effects on culture you want magic to have first than tailor the magical discovery to fit with the cultural effects you want to have?
Quote1) He probably tried.
Why he failed will tell you a lot about how the knowledge disseminated.
Quote2) The same question could be asked about almost anything. Nobody discovered it earlier because nobody did. Perhaps Bronze Age is the lowest tech level at which magical tools can be made with sufficient precision to be useful.
Technology tends to depend on other technology. And it doesn't tend to progress really fast until you get the sort of inter connectivity we have in the modern world. In our world it took over a century or more for flintlocks to replace matchlocks and wheellocks on firearms. So if the dissemination was fast, then it must have been easy, which makes it hard to explain why it took so long to occur in the first place.
I'm not seeing why flint and bone wouldn't work just as well as bronze, iron, or cloth - you did mention cloth. Once people know how to make non-magical tools and decorative items it would seem like magical tools are going to be inevitably and quickly discovered because mages are going to need non-magical tools to perform their rituals in the first place.
Quote3) Probably, as part of an apprenticeship
In that case the apprentice probably killed his master and all the other apprentices or killed his master, stole his books, and burned his house. And any surviving apprentices or neighbors had to reconstruct the master's discovery from his dead body and the ashes of his burned down house. Or maybe this isn't a huge leap in magical tech such that people would kill to gain and keep its secrets. In which case the change is not a big one from 50 years ago so the culture stays pretty much the same.
Quote4) Very likely. Once something is demonstrated, reverse engineering is nearly inevitable. This ties in with 1.
Not so inevitable if failure kills you in nasty messy ways and there is no preexisting alchemical and apothecary knowledge to serve as a foundation for someone else independently discovering gunpowder or reverse engineering it from stolen fireworks.
Quote5) Slow, painstakingly careful, heavily ritualized, and prone to blowing up in one's face if you rush things or mess up.
Sounds like the difference is that you can do the slow, painstakingly careful, heavily ritualized bit on the front end when you create your magical widget rather on the back end when you cast the spell and for some reason creating the widget isn't anywhere near as dangerous as casting a ritual spell without a widget. I'm not seeing why that wouldn't be a relatively easy discovery to make. Especially since somebody already did the hard and dangerous work of discovering how to do magic without tools.
How about instead of just inventing it they just innovated it with more conductive materials? Bronze is more conductive than say wood, bone, and stone. That way you got that leap in magical tools that is never before seen, but don't need to explain the creation of magical tools.
Quote from: Bren;873419I'm not seeing why flint and bone wouldn't work just as well as bronze, iron, or cloth - you did mention cloth. Once people know how to make non-magical tools and decorative items it would seem like magical tools are going to be inevitably and quickly discovered because mages are going to need non-magical tools to perform their rituals in the first place.
How about "before basic geometry and hard metal tools, the degree of precision craftsmanship needed was not attainable?" That seems a sound enough reason to me. Remember that just because a thing can be discovered with simple instruments or basic tools, that doesn't mean it automatically will be. Look at Newton's Laws of Motion. He needed nothing more advanced than a decent timing mechanism, a ramp, and some well-calibrated weights. The ancient Greeks had all the equipment needed and an entire scholarly class. So why didn't they discover the laws? It's the same sort of question. Sometimes, "because that's not how it happened" has to suffice, especially in fiction.
Quote from: Whitewings;873407Since "Arabian Nights" and "Bronze Age" are more or less incompatible terms, what might be a good alternative to "Arabian Nights" to suggest the kind of low tech Middle Eastern setting I have in mind?
Well, if what you're thinking of is loosely based on Bronze Age Middle East - city-states with massive walls, strict kings with demon blood, chariot archers, dry wastelands punctuated by fertile river valleys and the like - but with the possible admission of other stuff like Ancient Egypt, India or Greece, then how about
"Fantasy world loosely based on Bronze Age Middle East"? It seems to me like that's exactly what you're describing.
More thoughts on magic in this setting: Changing things into other things is possible. In fact, it's a primary application, and comes in three varieties: alteration, transformation and transmutation. The latter two work on similar rules: the more alike the beginning and end states, the easier the change is to perform. Turn a man into a moth? Easy. Turn a man into a woman? Hard. Turn a man into a similar man? Very hard. Similarly, turning a large log into a coin is easy. Turning a pebble into a star sapphire is very hard. None of these changes are normally permanent; the greater the change, the longer it lasts. A permanent change is possible, but it's a huge amount of work and very demanding. Changes can make things into smarter things, but not more knowledgeable. Turn a pebble into a living woman, she only has the instincts of a human. No acquired skills at all. No language, no understanding of society, not even toilet training. Turn a mouse into a horse? Sure. Just don't try to ride the horse. It's 100% wild. Oh, and changes between states of matter are not possible. Water to wine, yes. Water to gold, no. Transmutations are not generally cost-effective in the "lead into gold" sense, but they're probably pretty lucrative to perform on things like carvings or slaves to create temporary exotic decorations (living or otherwise).
The first is different: changing purely superficial aspects of a target can be done fairly easily, and can be made stable with moderate effort. Give a woman blue skin? Sure. Make a man's grey hair black again? No problem. Turn brown eyes to blue or green or even golden yellow? If you want. Basically, if it could be done with dyes or paint, it can be done with alteration magic. If you'd need surgery, that's a transformation. Note that tattoo equivalents can be created this way.
Healing is possible. The more extensive the damage, the harder to heal. Healing something that could not heal naturally is much harder than simply enhancing the patient's natural healing and recovery. Raising the dead is easy in one sense, and impossible in another. It's quite simple to restore life to a corpse or even re-flesh a skeleton, but restoring personality is flatly impossible. Your old dog won't be coming back; the new dog is just that. And of course, creating a new person results in, effectively, an adult infant.
Levitation, yes. The preferred tool is probably a carpet. Scrying, yes. The preferred tool is probably a mirror, or a basin of very pure water. Ghosts can be summoned; they are no more helpful or trustworthy than they were in life. Or less, for that matter. But threatening them is very difficult, given that they're already dead.
Not too sure what else. Suggestions and comments?
Quote from: Whitewings;873416Well, I'm trying to come up with a term that would indicate "more-or-less Middle Eastern" but doesn't tie expectations too strongly to a specific culture.
Ignore the haters. "Arabian fantasy" covers it quite well. "Arabian Nights" would be OK except for the pedants who will want to insist that something is a few years too early or was completely gone by the actual historical time implied by that title, even though its stories were collected over centuries. Similarly, I'd suggest "low tech" or "pre-gunpowder" or such rather than "Bronze Age", for the same reason.