TheRPGSite

NB: This is a setting discussion thread, please leave system/mechanics talk at the door.

I'm not really much of a homebrewer when it comes to settings (as much as I like to hack systems to fit my purposes, I tend to use existing settings/properties), but circumstance has forced my hand. I can't seem to find a genuinely sword and sorcery setting that fits my needs closely enough to be worth starting with.

At its fundament, what I'm after is deliberately low magic, humanocentric and non-medieval. Lots of things that D&D isn't, and divergent from the vast majority of settings that are out there. Even settings that aren't closely aligned to D&D still seem to draw heavily on its tropes and assumptions, thus me throwing in the towel searching and doing it myself.

Now I know some people might be thinking "why not just play Conan" and have done. Unfortunately, Conan comes with baggage and negative connotations I can't undo in the minds of my group. But if I do something of my own (as I understand is a time-honoured tradition with sword and sorcery anyway), at least I can avoid some of those things. Besides, it means it could be a setting to discover together.

S&S settings are often done in broad strokes, so in a way that suits my purposes quite well. I don't intend to define and describe an entire world in detail, just lay down some of the ground rules.


Bronze Age?

First up, Bronze Age is my means to avoid all the medievalisms of D&D and it's ilk. Societies can be settled or not, but the key societal structure is the tribe. There's no such thing as a nation; there are city-states and occasionally empires, but no national identity exists. Large tracts of land belong to no one, barring the wild peoples who inhabit and roam around those spaces, answering to no one but themselves and their tribal leaders. Even urban folk still trace their connections and heritage to tribes, which are the default organising structures for collective activity.

City-states trace their influence as far as their citizen-militias can march and defend communities allied to them. Most major commerce is carried out on water, for while there are pirates and tempestuous weather to contend with, it's faster and safer than by land.

Most physical conflict is at the skirmish level. Few city-states are rich enough to mobilise their militias for long, or keep standing units of mercenaries ready to respond to things. Most tribes are experienced raiders and more than willing to pick up a weapon to enforce their will. Social convention and bonds of clientage, not "town guards" keep the peace in settlements.

Slavery is ubiquitous, with freedom and citizenship being a condition prized even by the lowliest citizen. Most of those slaves are foreigners and tribal people taken in conflict, but there are also those forced to sell themselves (or sold in bulk by their city) to pay debts.

Bronze is the most common metal, used for everything. Unlike in the real world, tin is plentiful. Most critically (for a later point), iron is almost completely absent, barring whatever falls from the skies in meteors in small quantities.


Races

The only sympathetic, sapient, mammalian species on the entire planet is humanity. That's right, no elves, dwarves, orcs or the rest, and non-humans aren't playable.

I haven't given them a lot of thought yet, but any non-human sapients will likely be reptilian, and maybe include amphibian or avian types too. They are all violently opposed to humanity. There is no great peaceful coalition of species to be built in this setting. Every sapient species competes with and hates every other.


Magic

This is still a fantasy world with an inherent level of magic about it, but the fundamental truth is this: humans have no magic. None at all, they are not born with a spark of it, they can't learn it with careful study and dedication, they are magically inert.

All magic is unnatural and alien to humanity, and there is only one way they can get access to it: pacts with Outsiders. Those pacts are fell bargains where you trade a piece of your soul for power, irrevocably initiating your descent into corruption. Sorcerors are reviled and feared, not welcome anywhere.

Magic is a living thing, associated with biological processes and connections to the world itself. As a result, it cannot be invested in inanimate objects. There are no "magic items" in this world. There's flora and fauna with magical properties which last a short time after they are harvested/hunted, but nothing permanent.

There might be gods, people certainly worship various entities. But they don't grant magic, aid their followers, nor for that matter actually provide any evidence for their existence.


Outsiders

The main source of non-ambient magic and a significant threat/antagonist source are the Outsiders (this is a placeholder for a proper name). Rather than a myriad of alien types, I want to go with just one, and rather than demons I'm currently thinking the Fae. Faeries of the Exalted brand of wierd things of chaos, not the Disney good/evil fairies.

That's why the absence of iron is significant, they and their magics are relatively safe from the touch of iron because it's so rare. Bronze weapons will hurt them, insofar as enough physical harm will force them to abandon a material form, but they don't bleed or take any permanent damage from it. By contrast iron burns and can permanently end them.

They are the source of pacts that sorcerors make to trade humanity for power that humans are not supposed to have. Pacts are thematically a big thing for Fae, easily as much as demons. They feed on emotions and souls, leaving their victims mindless husks if they drink their fill.

They sometimes take humans as consorts, producing half-Fae changelings who are shapeshifters with a small measure of magical ability.


And that's about all I have for now.

Very nice. I'd use shades of Sláine in there too if you're leery of Conan. While Sláine does routinely beat Ukko his dwarf, an argument could be made that he richly deserves it. Generally speaking that's a good series of comics if you want to go stone age/bronze age, or take a look at the Mythological cycle as interpreted by Jim Fitzpatrick, a unique style.

(http://ireland.mysteriousworld.com/Content/Images/Mystery/Folklore/MythologicalTales/MythologicalTales-Lugh.jpg)

Sounds very cool, Kiero. Especially as i am thinking about running almost the same thing atm :D
I hope you keep posting your setting development here.

As an aside - Have you looked at this product? I think it comes as close to what you are looking for as possible (from all the published stuff i know that you have not explicitely excluded in your OP)

Atlas of Audhüm (http://www.lulu.com/shop/chris-organ-and-kent-davis/the-atlas-of-audh%C3%BCm/ebook/product-20404290.html)

I'm also tinkering with a Bronze Age humanocentric S&S setting.
 
As you are settling on some sort of Fae for the Outsiders, then I also think a vaguely Celtic style setting would be best. A very small group of professional warriors (mounted on chariots) and backed by a militia of free clients, serve a king. Many such kingdoms are small and alliances of several petty kings band together around a 'big king' for large conflicts – but these are rare, and most conflict is small scale raiding by the professionals. Women have more rights and power than in many societies and this includes the right to bear arms as a warrior.

Of course, in the real world these sort of societies didn't have cities, which is why I'm looking to rip off Mesopotamia, and using the empire of Sargon of Akkad for inspiration for the political background, and use the Nephilim for intelligent magical foes.

But if you stick a 'Camelot' and an anti-Camelot or two into a Celtic setting, then you can have a sort of 'Irish Arthurian' setting. Many of the traditional themes of Celtic myth are still embedded in the Malory-era Arthurian legends: cuckolded older leaders with adulterous younger wives, trips to the underworld/fae lands/mystic places, even magic weapons – all appear in early Celtic myth.

In Irish legends the chariot driver often comments ironically on the hero warrior's actions, and acts as a conversational foil to the hero. If your group is into that kind of thing, a player could have a warrior PC, but could also play the charioteer of another player's warrior.

Of course the setting wouldn't be Ireland, but could take inspiration from all Celtic societies from Ireland to Continental Europe. I've sometimes thought about running a 'London-before-London' Bronze Age game, with the heroes living in reed houses in the wetlands of the Thames, which is dominated by King Lud's fortress on his hill above the river. Descended from Trojan refugees, King Lud's boys were...  

And The Traveller's suggestion of looking at Sláine is a very good one. Reptilemen will fit just great into a Sláine-style setting

Except for the Magic part, you just described Glorantha.

Funny how attractive this is.

My secondary, d20 seting is a bronze age version (http://accisworldofbronze.pbworks.com/w/page/31914263/FrontPage).
And with only human types, though I do have different human racial strains.

I like your idea of the outsiders, and pacts for magic.  Very S&S.

Quote from: The Traveller;597342Very nice. I'd use shades of Sláine in there too if you're leery of Conan. While Sláine does routinely beat Ukko his dwarf, an argument could be made that he richly deserves it. Generally speaking that's a good series of comics if you want to go stone age/bronze age, or take a look at the Mythological cycle as interpreted by Jim Fitzpatrick, a unique style.

(http://ireland.mysteriousworld.com/Content/Images/Mystery/Folklore/MythologicalTales/MythologicalTales-Lugh.jpg)

I've never really paid much attention to Slaine before now, but I'll take a look.

Quote from: Anglachel;597351Sounds very cool, Kiero. Especially as i am thinking about running almost the same thing atm :D
I hope you keep posting your setting development here.

So maybe this isn't such a dry vein of influences after all? Hope it's going well with yours.

Quote from: Anglachel;597351As an aside - Have you looked at this product? I think it comes as close to what you are looking for as possible (from all the published stuff i know that you have not explicitely excluded in your OP)

Atlas of Audhüm (http://www.lulu.com/shop/chris-organ-and-kent-davis/the-atlas-of-audh%C3%BCm/ebook/product-20404290.html)

From the preview, the author has some strange ideas about the transition from Bronze to Iron Age (civilisation as we'd call it is a Bronze Age, not Iron Age invention...), but it's an interesting one nontheless.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;597360I'm also tinkering with a Bronze Age humanocentric S&S setting.
 
As you are settling on some sort of Fae for the Outsiders, then I also think a vaguely Celtic style setting would be best. A very small group of professional warriors (mounted on chariots) and backed by a militia of free clients, serve a king. Many such kingdoms are small and alliances of several petty kings band together around a 'big king' for large conflicts – but these are rare, and most conflict is small scale raiding by the professionals. Women have more rights and power than in many societies and this includes the right to bear arms as a warrior.

Of course, in the real world these sort of societies didn't have cities, which is why I'm looking to rip off Mesopotamia, and using the empire of Sargon of Akkad for inspiration for the political background, and use the Nephilim for intelligent magical foes.

But if you stick a 'Camelot' and an anti-Camelot or two into a Celtic setting, then you can have a sort of 'Irish Arthurian' setting. Many of the traditional themes of Celtic myth are still embedded in the Malory-era Arthurian legends: cuckolded older leaders with adulterous younger wives, trips to the underworld/fae lands/mystic places, even magic weapons – all appear in early Celtic myth.

In Irish legends the chariot driver often comments ironically on the hero warrior's actions, and acts as a conversational foil to the hero. If your group is into that kind of thing, a player could have a warrior PC, but could also play the charioteer of another player's warrior.

Of course the setting wouldn't be Ireland, but could take inspiration from all Celtic societies from Ireland to Continental Europe. I've sometimes thought about running a 'London-before-London' Bronze Age game, with the heroes living in reed houses in the wetlands of the Thames, which is dominated by King Lud's fortress on his hill above the river. Descended from Trojan refugees, King Lud's boys were...  

And The Traveller's suggestion of looking at Sláine is a very good one. Reptilemen will fit just great into a Sláine-style setting

I'm leery of going too Western with influences, something more like the Mediterranean/Near East is where I'm drawing most heavily from. Helps to counter the charges of potential bigotry, and besides which I wouldn't invent my own world only to have exactly the same assumption that everyone is Caucasian that many published settings seem to settle on.

Got no problem with having some Irish-style barbarians in the spaces between places (after all in classical times Celts more generally were a successful and well-developed people), but not as the assumed central/dominant culture.

Quote from: silva;597361Except for the Magic part, you just described Glorantha.

Well, the magic is hardly a trivial thing in Glorantha. And besides, no duck-people here.

Quote from: LordVreeg;597362Funny how attractive this is.

My secondary, d20 seting is a bronze age version (http://accisworldofbronze.pbworks.com/w/page/31914263/FrontPage).
And with only human types, though I do have different human racial strains.

I like your idea of the outsiders, and pacts for magic.  Very S&S.

Yeah, I really wanted to get away from the assumptions of easily available magic for PCs. Indeed the assumption is no magic at all for PCs, since I doubt anyone is really going to want to play a sorceror.

QuoteWell, the magic is hardly a trivial thing in Glorantha. And besides, no duck-people here.

Well, one actually could call it trivial in the sense that its everywhere and everyone makes use of it (as much as anyone in pre-modern times made use of charms and spells for everyday concerns like luck, fertility, peace, sucess at work, etc. making it trivial for day-to-day life). About the duck-people, you will have amphibian and avian peoples too, no? Thats no different really. The point is that all non-human races are utterly alien to humanity (instead of humans with different morphology, as is the case with D&D settings).

By the way, nice descriptions there Kiero. I would play it in a instant. ;)

Quote from: Kiero;597378I'm leery of going too Western with influences, something more like the Mediterranean/Near East is where I'm drawing most heavily from. Helps to counter the charges of potential bigotry, and besides which I wouldn't invent my own world only to have exactly the same assumption that everyone is Caucasian that many published settings seem to settle on.

There's a surprising amount of multicultural influence to some of the earlier cycles in Irish myth and legend, for example the story of the Tuatha De Dannan was that they fled the country or were driven out, wandered the Middle East and much of Asia for a few generations learning sorcery and the arts of war, before returning to find their sacred homeland occupied by the Fir Bolg. By some translations their name means "people of the water" or "sea people".

In my wanderings I once happened to play some traditional Irish back country hey-fiddle-diddle for a group of gentleman which left them weeping into their drinks with nostalgia for their homeland; which, as it turned out, was somewhere to the west of the Nile Valley.

Anyway the long and the short of it is that when you go back that far the cultures can be almost completely alien to modern western sensibilities, so accusations of being close minded are meaningless. Yes, Irish myth has a dude with a cyborg arm hurling a meteorite through some guy who shoots lasers from his eye, and the holy grail was in fact the cauldron of life.

Although I'm not sure exactly who would be accusing you of bigotry, or why...

Quote from: LordVreeg;597362Funny how attractive this is.

I think the problem with Bronze Age fantasy is similar to the problem that science fiction has as a genre in role-playing games, which is that there is no singular vision of belongs or doesn't belong in such a setting and everyone seems to have a different idea of what it means and what should or shouldn't be included.  On the most basic level, the Bronze Age will look very different if you focus on Northern Europe, Egypt, the Mycenaeans, the Hittites, the Minoans, Akkadian Mesopotamia, or Shang China.  It will look very different if you focus on the mythological or realistic.  It will look very different of you focus on the earliest parts of the Bronze Age or the Late Bronze Age.  

In some ways, I think the Mazes and Minotaurs (http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm) game has the right idea, which is to draw on Hollywood influences as source material, which helps provide the Cliché aspect of S. John Ross' Five Elements of a Commercially Viable RPG Setting (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/five-elements.htm).  Hollywood has a serious issue portraying the Bronze Age without throwing in iron and elements from the Classical and Medieval periods because they want to show things like sword-fighting, but the players might want that, too.

If the goal is simply to avoid overused Medieval clichés for something a little different but also familiar, one could get workable results drawing inspiration from Hollywood's Sword and Sorcery and Sword and Sandal "ancient world" mashups seen in shows like Hercules and Xena and movies like the Conan movies, The Scorpion King, Kull the Conqueror, Jason and the Argonauts, the Brad Pitt Trojan War movie, and so on, which would still let players have ubiquitous sword-fighting, horses with stirrups, and pants instead of trying for anything too authentically Bronze Age.  ADDED: In other words, don't worry about having people using iron, steel, and other anachronistic things in your "Bronze Age" setting.

I posted a lot of thoughts, sources, and images for my take on the (Minoan and Mycenaean focused) Bronze Age in this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=465836) a while back, which you also participated in, so I wanted to add a pointer to that here.

The Traveller - Wow, that art is really nice. I never heard the artists name. Thanks for showing it to us.

Kiero - Another setting that i totally forgot about is Early Dark. It's relatively new (Kickstarter in 2010, i think) and by a small company, so I think the chances that you have had it on your radar are slim. It has magic in it but the world is very pre medieval and mythic. Also, the only playable races are humans. IIRC, the authors (or at least one of them) have degrees in anthropology. Here's a link, if you are interested:
Early Dark (http://anthroposgames.com/earlydark/)

I was also working on a Bronze Age OD&D setting a couple years ago. I focused on Sumeria, Babylonian and Assyrian influences and avoided anything European or Greek especially since I already play Mazes & Minotaurs.

The campaign focused on the ascension of the first human God-King and his creation of a paradise in the afterlife. The "old faiths" were all animal worship and a demon infested wilderness where humans encountered could be more dangerous than any wild beast.

Quote from: John Morrow;597420I think the problem with Bronze Age fantasy is similar to the problem that science fiction has as a genre in role-playing games, which is that there is no singular vision of belongs or doesn't belong in such a setting and everyone seems to have a different idea of what it means and what should or shouldn't be included.  On the most basic level, the Bronze Age will look very different if you focus on Northern Europe, Egypt, the Mycenaeans, the Hittites, the Minoans, Akkadian Mesopotamia, or Shang China.  It will look very different if you focus on the mythological or realistic.  It will look very different of you focus on the earliest parts of the Bronze Age or the Late Bronze Age.  

In some ways, I think the Mazes and Minotaurs (http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm) game has the right idea, which is to draw on Hollywood influences as source material, which helps provide the Cliché aspect of S. John Ross' Five Elements of a Commercially Viable RPG Setting (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/five-elements.htm).  Hollywood has a serious issue portraying the Bronze Age without throwing in iron and elements from the Classical and Medieval periods because they want to show things like sword-fighting, but the players might want that, too.

If the goal is simply to avoid overused Medieval clichés for something a little different but also familiar, one could get workable results drawing inspiration from Hollywood's Sword and Sorcery and Sword and Sandal "ancient world" mashups seen in shows like Hercules and Xena and movies like the Conan movies, The Scorpion King, Kull the Conqueror, Jason and the Argonauts, the Brad Pitt Trojan War movie, and so on, which would still let players have ubiquitous sword-fighting, horses with stirrups, and pants instead of trying for anything too authentically Bronze Age.  ADDED: In other words, don't worry about having people using iron, steel, and other anachronistic things in your "Bronze Age" setting.

I posted a lot of thoughts, sources, and images for my take on the (Minoan and Mycenaean focused) Bronze Age in this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=465836) a while back, which you also participated in, so I wanted to add a pointer to that here.

Much of my interest comes from a certain academic background, though I am sure there is a certain level of pop culture, etc, sitting in my head.  
Though I do have bronze and breakage/dulling rules (as well as rare steel items, becasue I could not resist).  Similarly, the terror of the night and strange cults are a focus, as well as the effects of fate.

Quote from: Kiero;597378So maybe this isn't such a dry vein of influences after all?

No, it really isn't - I've seen 10 or 15 people talk about their bronze age campaigns/settings since I started my own several years ago and started paying attention to such things. I'm not sure why this never translated into a published setting by someone - Age of Treason seems to come closest.

Quote from: Thalaba;597445No, it really isn't - I've seen 10 or 15 people talk about their bronze age campaigns/settings since I started my own several years ago and started paying attention to such things. I'm not sure why this never translated into a published setting by someone - Age of Treason seems to come closest.

yes, I really enjoyed your earlier notes.

Quote from: silva;597382Well, one actually could call it trivial in the sense that its everywhere and everyone makes use of it (as much as anyone in pre-modern times made use of charms and spells for everyday concerns like luck, fertility, peace, sucess at work, etc. making it trivial for day-to-day life).

It's not trivial because it's all-encompassing and ever-present. It's entirely the opposite of what I have in mind (where people aren't capable of any magic).

Quote from: silva;597382About the duck-people, you will have amphibian and avian peoples too, no? Thats no different really. The point is that all non-human races are utterly alien to humanity (instead of humans with different morphology, as is the case with D&D settings).

By the way, nice descriptions there Kiero. I would play it in a instant. ;)

You can have utterly alien without plain old silly. :)

Quote from: The Traveller;597385There's a surprising amount of multicultural influence to some of the earlier cycles in Irish myth and legend, for example the story of the Tuatha De Dannan was that they fled the country or were driven out, wandered the Middle East and much of Asia for a few generations learning sorcery and the arts of war, before returning to find their sacred homeland occupied by the Fir Bolg. By some translations their name means "people of the water" or "sea people".

In my wanderings I once happened to play some traditional Irish back country hey-fiddle-diddle for a group of gentleman which left them weeping into their drinks with nostalgia for their homeland; which, as it turned out, was somewhere to the west of the Nile Valley.

Anyway the long and the short of it is that when you go back that far the cultures can be almost completely alien to modern western sensibilities, so accusations of being close minded are meaningless. Yes, Irish myth has a dude with a cyborg arm hurling a meteorite through some guy who shoots lasers from his eye, and the holy grail was in fact the cauldron of life.

My point here was largely that these sorts of things aren't all that alien to fantasy, since they're sometimes drawn upon.

Quote from: The Traveller;597385Although I'm not sure exactly who would be accusing you of bigotry, or why...

As a genre, pulp fantasy can often be accused of being sexist, racist and macho. Those are the connotations I'm working against when trying to sell it to my own group.

Quote from: Anglachel;597433Kiero - Another setting that i totally forgot about is Early Dark. It's relatively new (Kickstarter in 2010, i think) and by a small company, so I think the chances that you have had it on your radar are slim. It has magic in it but the world is very pre medieval and mythic. Also, the only playable races are humans. IIRC, the authors (or at least one of them) have degrees in anthropology. Here's a link, if you are interested:
Early Dark (http://anthroposgames.com/earlydark/)

Now that is interesting, I hadn't heard of it before. Its about the closest of anything in print I've seen to what I had in mind, though I'm not clear from what I've read how pervasive magic(k) is.

It is unfortunately another one that has to feature a fallen age where some past peoples were better, but that's a small slight against it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;597436I was also working on a Bronze Age OD&D setting a couple years ago. I focused on Sumeria, Babylonian and Assyrian influences and avoided anything European or Greek especially since I already play Mazes & Minotaurs.

The campaign focused on the ascension of the first human God-King and his creation of a paradise in the afterlife. The "old faiths" were all animal worship and a demon infested wilderness where humans encountered could be more dangerous than any wild beast.

Sounds interesting, did it get much play?

Quote from: Thalaba;597445No, it really isn't - I've seen 10 or 15 people talk about their bronze age campaigns/settings since I started my own several years ago and started paying attention to such things. I'm not sure why this never translated into a published setting by someone - Age of Treason seems to come closest.

It is bizarre that we don't seem to have had something published that's catering to this particular niche. Well, beyond some little-known things like Early Dark upthread.

Quote from: Kiero;597378I'm leery of going too Western with influences, something more like the Mediterranean/Near East is where I'm drawing most heavily from. Helps to counter the charges of potential bigotry, and besides which I wouldn't invent my own world only to have exactly the same assumption that everyone is Caucasian that many published settings seem to settle on.

Got no problem with having some Irish-style barbarians in the spaces between places (after all in classical times Celts more generally were a successful and well-developed people), but not as the assumed central/dominant culture.

Yeah, I can see your desire to get away from the trad fantasy tropes might make too many Irish influences a no-no, as Celtic styles and themes have been a popular source for fantasy games in the past. Perhaps I read too much into your proposed use of 'The Fae'.

The Med and the Middle East have been occasionally been used by commercial games in the past, but not well, I think.

Remember this old thread from 6 years ago on the Big Purple?

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?269191-(a-Conan-inspired-setting)-Sumatragori-Redux

Some interesting ideas here, if overall I found it a bit overwriten for my taste.
(And too much in awe of Conan.)

Personally I prefer the more bare-bones approach suggested in Paul Elliott's Babel - sadly no longer available on the web - did you ever see it?

Quote from: Kiero;597455As a genre, pulp fantasy can often be accused of being sexist, racist and macho. Those are the connotations I'm working against when trying to sell it to my own group.

I didn't think there was much of a pulp fantasy genre. I've heard of high fantasy, low fantasy, dark fantasy, swords and sorcery, but all fantasy tends to be somewhat pulpy (as in two fisted action) by its very nature. Actual pulp from the 1920s-50s yeah, that was rotten with racism and misogyny.

Again, Sláine has neither that I can remember, although both that and the works of Jim Fitzpatrick play on a fairly earthy tone. If 'sexist' means 'having sex' your group might not enjoy the influence. With that said the characteristic picture of the spiky haired axeman belies what can be a quite nuanced storyline.

Quote from: The Traveller;597469I didn't think there was much of a pulp fantasy genre. I've heard of high fantasy, low fantasy, dark fantasy, swords and sorcery, but all fantasy tends to be somewhat pulpy (as in two fisted action) by its very nature. Actual pulp from the 1920s-50s yeah, that was rotten with racism and misogyny.

I think it's accurate to call the sword and sorcery of Howard, Smith, and others who were writing their fantasy stories during the 1920s-50s "pulp fantasy", especially since much of it it was actually published in pulps.  I would consider it another label for what's more commonly called "sword and sorcery" by those who make a distinction between different genres of fantasy.

This is an off topic post to simply thank Kiero for starting this thread. This is the sort of thing we should do more of here - be creative and share ideas. The Traveller started a similar ideas thread a while back that died early, which I though was a shame.

I think Kiero's request to keep system discussion out of it helped. Once people raise the topic of systems then a thread tends to become all about mechanics. Mind you, I suppose that floats a lot of people's boats.

Back on topic - Kiero, how do you see the question of the Gods?

Are they real and active, or are they 'silent' like in a lot of the old S&S stories. Do priests have access to supernatural power from their God, or is religion more a matter of power structures and political clout?

My preference is that the Gods no longer manifest themselves in the world. If a priest has mojo, then it means they are a closet mage and are simply pretending their power comes from the Gods. I suppose in your 'no humans have magic' set up, that would mean that the priest or priestess is a Changeling.

Quote from: The Traveller;597385Yes, Irish myth has a dude with a cyborg arm hurling a meteorite through some guy who shoots lasers from his eye, and the holy grail was in fact the cauldron of life.

Hang on a sec. Guy with the cyborg arm is Nuada of the Silver Hand, sure. But the laser eye guy must be Balor of the Evil Eye, and he was killed by Lugh, not Nuada.

Quote from: Premier;597564Hang on a sec. Guy with the cyborg arm is Nuada of the Silver Hand, sure. But the laser eye guy must be Balor of the Evil Eye, and he was killed by Lugh, not Nuada.

I haven't read it in many years to be honest. The salient takeaway is that lasers, cyborgs, and meteorites make for a kickass mythology.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;597464Yeah, I can see your desire to get away from the trad fantasy tropes might make too many Irish influences a no-no, as Celtic styles and themes have been a popular source for fantasy games in the past. Perhaps I read too much into your proposed use of 'The Fae'.

The Med and the Middle East have been occasionally been used by commercial games in the past, but not well, I think.

I'm talking more like Exalted-style Hindu-inspired emotion-vampires, rather than the potentially Disney-esque Irish-style Fae.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;597466Remember this old thread from 6 years ago on the Big Purple?

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?269191-(a-Conan-inspired-setting)-Sumatragori-Redux

Some interesting ideas here, if overall I found it a bit overwriten for my taste.
(And too much in awe of Conan.)

Personally I prefer the more bare-bones approach suggested in Paul Elliott's Babel - sadly no longer available on the web - did you ever see it?

I'll check it out later when my suspension ends this evening.

As an aside, Paul Elliott wrote one of my favourite historical games, Warlords of Alexander. I've got no use for BRP, but turning the history into a (concise) gameable format is invaluable.

Quote from: John Morrow;597500I think it's accurate to call the sword and sorcery of Howard, Smith, and others who were writing their fantasy stories during the 1920s-50s "pulp fantasy", especially since much of it it was actually published in pulps.  I would consider it another label for what's more commonly called "sword and sorcery" by those who make a distinction between different genres of fantasy.

This, pulp fantasy is a bit more specific a term than the often useless "sword and sorcery" tag. Not least because in too many people's minds, the latter applies to D&D, even though I've never seen any published D&D setting that remotely fits the tropes of the genre.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;597560This is an off topic post to simply thank Kiero for starting this thread. This is the sort of thing we should do more of here - be creative and share ideas. The Traveller started a similar ideas thread a while back that died early, which I though was a shame.

I think Kiero's request to keep system discussion out of it helped. Once people raise the topic of systems then a thread tends to become all about mechanics. Mind you, I suppose that floats a lot of people's boats.

Scars of a long time posting on fora tell me if you excise the system discussion you get a smaller, but better-focused thread. Especially if you're not actually after system recommendations anyway.

I've lost track of the number of threads that get derailed with an avalanche of empty, and often inappropriate "play my favourite game" entreaties.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;597561Back on topic - Kiero, how do you see the question of the Gods?

Are they real and active, or are they 'silent' like in a lot of the old S&S stories. Do priests have access to supernatural power from their God, or is religion more a matter of power structures and political clout?

My preference is that the Gods no longer manifest themselves in the world. If a priest has mojo, then it means they are a closet mage and are simply pretending their power comes from the Gods. I suppose in your 'no humans have magic' set up, that would mean that the priest or priestess is a Changeling.

Silent gods; they do nothing, do not respond to prayers, give no evidence whatsoever that they are out there. Not that it stops people worshipping gods, mind, they just don't do anything. Religion is a purely political and mundane force.

Anyone using magic is either a sorceror or a changeling - neither of them good.

Here's a bit of a diversion, but in keeping with the core theme of pulp fantasy - Exalted's pre-history. I know I'm not the only person who generally muses that Exalted's setting, Creation, is kind of interesting, but the whole thing is spoiled by the Exalted themselves.

Well in the Time of Glory, before the Primordial War and Exalted were even thought of, just such a setting existed. Humanity is ruled over by the Dragon Kings (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Dragon_Kings), humanoid dinosaurs with superpowers (and perfect reincarnation) who were given their stewardship by the gods. They worshipped the sun with great temples and Aztec-style sacrifices of humans.

I'm imagining this gradual slide towards the Primordial War, where the gods and elementals are chafing at their bonds and making moves towards the war. That includes sending their half-divine children as agents of chaos, sowing dischord and encouraging the human population to rebel, along with acting as emissaries recruiting others to the cause.

Basically it's an excuse to play and focus on all the stuff that is usually all but ignored - Dragon Kings, Mountain Folk, Heroic and Enlightened Mortals, God-Blooded, spirits and Fae. There's no demons or unquiet dead, since neither of those things exist yet.

It lacks all the accretion of magitech and bizarre transhumanism that developed over the line, since none of that stuff exists yet. There's a bit more focus of themes, rather than seven different types of super-people each thinking the world is run for their benefit.

Quote from: silva;597361Except for the Magic part, you just described Glorantha.

No, he hasn't. For starters, magic is a huge part of Glorantha. Second, there are ample monsters and demihumans in Glorantha.

I hate when people do that shit.

RPGPundit

Pundit, what part of "except for the Magic part" you didnt understand ?


No really. What Kiero described in the OP is just exactly like Glorantha, except for the Magic part. Everything else is there - the tribal (and clan) level social organization, the empires and city-states, the "barren wild peoples", the all-bronze weaponry, the skirmish level conflicts (with sandals & slings & spears instead of longbows & swords & full-plates), the slavery, the alien and hostile non-playable non-humans, even the "outsiders" are there! (only its Chaos instead of the Fae ;) )

The part where the particulars of magic are such a big part of Glorantha (the game is even named after magic, RUNEquest), that if you say "something is just like glorantha only without magic" is like saying "something is not really like glorantha at all".

All the things you pointed out aren't Glorantha, they're just standard bronze age tropes. And you left out the part that Glorantha has elves, dwarves, duck people, etc., when the OP explicitly pointed out his setting would be HUMANS only (plus the outsiders).

RPGPundit

QuoteThe part where the particulars of magic are such a big part of Glorantha (the game is even named after magic, RUNEquest), that if you say "something is just like glorantha only without magic" is like saying "something is not really like glorantha at all".

I agree. But then I didnt imply that he could simply use Glorantha for his game. I just wanted to make an observation on the similarities.

Also, Glorantha´s Uz, Aldryami and Mostali are non-playable and utterly aliens to humanity (at least thats the default assumption). And the OP cites reptilian, avian and amphibious races too, see:

Quote from: KieroI haven't given them a lot of thought yet, but any non-human sapients will likely be reptilian, and maybe include amphibian or avian types too. They are all violently opposed to humanity.

But please, forget my initial comment and let this offtopic slide into obscurity, since its adding nothing to the (nice) thread Kiero created. ;)

Getting back into that topic; for some reason when someone says "bronze age pulp fantasy", then "Celtic" is NOT what comes to mind.  Rather, as the OP clarified, middle-eastern or maybe greek.

I guess it might be because the New-age movement has soured me off all things "celtic" forever.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditGetting back into that topic; for some reason when someone says "bronze age pulp fantasy", then "Celtic" is NOT what comes to mind. Rather, as the OP clarified, middle-eastern or maybe greek.

I guess it might be because the New-age movement has soured me off all things "celtic" forever.

"New-age movement" ? Is that a new real world religion ?

Quote from: RPGPundit;599134Getting back into that topic; for some reason when someone says "bronze age pulp fantasy", then "Celtic" is NOT what comes to mind.  Rather, as the OP clarified, middle-eastern or maybe greek.

Meh, dandified action figures. Sláine is where its at.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fX7XMilTbFc/ThLXRKRxbrI/AAAAAAAAK24/2DAXI6kTGRY/s1600/Warp+Spasm+2.jpg)

The Irish mythological hero Cúchulainn is particularly associated with the warp spasm, and it is described in detail in the epic Táin Bó Cúailnge. In it, it was said that his body turned from front to back in his skin, he sucked one eye deep into his head while the other hung out on his cheek, his lungs and liver flapped in his mouth and throat, and a tall spout of blood rose from his head.

Ducks aren't silly...

Ducks are serious business

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi_hcwB8i64

Quote from: Kiero;597156The main source of non-ambient magic and a significant threat/antagonist source are the Outsiders (this is a placeholder for a proper name). Rather than a myriad of alien types, I want to go with just one, and rather than demons I'm currently thinking the Fae.

If you're distancing your setting from the West, Fae seem like a strange inclusion. Why not some form of native malicious spirits, of which there are tons in every culture. You could use the dark powers from Zoroastrianism (the Daeva), djinn (later culture, just as alien as fae but still appropriate), and so forth.

No idea what your academic background is, but there's a lot of online resources freely available on mythology. Look up the myths of Sumer, or Babylon, or Egypt. There's certain to be otherworldly beings who fit the bill.

Just my first response.

Otherwise, the setting sounds cool.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;599240If you're distancing your setting from the West, Fae seem like a strange inclusion. Why not some form of native malicious spirits, of which there are tons in every culture. You could use the dark powers from Zoroastrianism (the Daeva), djinn (later culture, just as alien as fae but still appropriate), and so forth.

No idea what your academic background is, but there's a lot of online resources freely available on mythology. Look up the myths of Sumer, or Babylon, or Egypt. There's certain to be otherworldly beings who fit the bill.

Just my first response.

Otherwise, the setting sounds cool.

I'm not talking about the Celtic-inspired Fae, but rather Exalted-style Hindu-inspired emotion-vampires.

Quote from: Kiero;599252I'm not talking about the Celtic-inspired Fae, but rather Exalted-style Hindu-inspired emotion-vampires.

My advice, FWIW: use a different word.

It's kind of jarring for an Antiquity culture to use the term "fae" (which originated in Old French, more than 3000 years later). Especially when the intended meaning ("hindu-inspired", etc.) has nothing to do with what people associate the term "fae" with: Tuatha, the Fair Folk, fairies, elves, etc. (See most of Urban Fantasy.)

It's like using the term "Dragon" to refer to sparkling emo vampires. You can argue about Vlad Dracul being The Dragon, and hence why vampires are dragons, but it'll still confuse people. Dragons are not vampires, and vice versa.

My advice is to use a different, culture-appropriate name for them, so people won't get confused. Daeva, Asura, whatever you want.

Look up some Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Hittite, whatever monsters and pick one that resembles what you intend these Outsiders to be and use its name. But fae...

That's just jarring. Like calling a specific breed of them leprechauns.

"I, Ashur, from the city of Kushap, did go forth in the name of El, the Lord of the Tempests and Night, and did slay many leprechauns, orcs, and tinkerbells."

Jarring.

Just my two cents.

Quote from: silva;597361Except for the Magic part, you just described Glorantha.

That is one of the most inaccurate statements I've read on this forum (barring some Pundit forum foolishness).

1. EVERYONE uses magic.
2. Elves, dwarves, ducks, broo, etc.
3. Helpful gods that grant magic.
4. The west is full-blown medieval Europe.
5. The east is China and Japan.
6. God-Learners.
7. etc.

Im with Daddy here. The term "Fae" is already loaded with a lot of assumptions. Picking another from bronze age cultures, or inventing a new one yourself, would make more sense.

Quote from: silva;599145"New-age movement" ? Is that a new real world religion ?

If you go into new age bookstores, crystal stores, even neo-pagan bookstores, you'll find all kinds of things that are labelled as "Celtic"; tarot card manufacturers, for example, have found that putting the word "Celtic" on the box instantly ups sales with a certain crowd, and most of the crappiest new-age music in the world tries to present itself as "celtic".

However, like with most things new-age there's nothing genuinely celtic about it, its all this kind of ersatz nonsense that has about as much to do with real celts as renaissance faires have to do with the real middle ages.

RPGPundit

Wait! You mean those books on Gypsy Magic aren't real?! Dammit!

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;597561Back on topic - Kiero, how do you see the question of the Gods?

Are they real and active, or are they 'silent' like in a lot of the old S&S stories. Do priests have access to supernatural power from their God, or is religion more a matter of power structures and political clout?

My preference is that the Gods no longer manifest themselves in the world. If a priest has mojo, then it means they are a closet mage and are simply pretending their power comes from the Gods. I suppose in your 'no humans have magic' set up, that would mean that the priest or priestess is a Changeling.

I like the gods having some effect, but I also like the unknowability.  SO though I have a few religions that do not really conflict, my Bronze age stuff has a number of oracles that are worshipped.

"Religion in Accis


Accis is a world of mystery and myth.  Religion is not a clean, clear cut thing,  Rather, it is a morass of politics and belief, a mess of cults and temples and rituals and prophecy.  In Accis, they worship the 'Divine Family', which is supposedly one of a few divine families, but the most powerful one.  The other divine groups are what rule other areas of the world, according to the Accians.   Juesak the Maimed yet strong, Herad the Burnt Smith, Calip the Lonely Scholar, Herani the Homemother, Ven the vain and beloved, and The 4 Weavers are the largest temples to the Divine Family.  Hetmar the Protector has a small temple, as does Rex The Father, Piner the brother and friend, and Warnock of the Night terror.  

Complicating this, there are 4 major and 4 minor priesthood that actually service and care for these temples, each attached to a prophet or auger in the area.   The Auger of the Serpent, the Profound Man, The Furies of the Flame, and Speaker of the Dead are the main, powerful prophets, that control priesthoods in the city.   The Secret Fire, The Guarded Library, The Eternal Family, and the Way of Flesh are the smaller ones.

There are also constantly rumors of mystery cults and secret religions, as well.  


There is also a Temple of the Forsaken in town, which is part of the Codex of Caleb, the major religion for the areas that originated the Dennite peoples.  It is given fair treatment, though it is not part of the politcal climate."

Quote from: LordVreeg;599477I like the gods having some effect, but I also like the unknowability.

Same here. In my BAS&S setting, there is no easy definition of what is a 'god'. There are a multitude of beings with powers in the world of varying degree, and any one of these could be worshipped by a community as a 'god'. Some of these beings have a physicial presence, while others do not.

Most communities believe in their own gods, no matter how powerful. Some of these also believe in the existence of other gods. Some believe that the beings others worship are merely spirits or demons. Some believe that all beings with power are merely demons and that anyone who worships a 'god' is really being duped.

In our campaigns, the characters have encountered:
- A formless being with magic powers that the locals worshipped as a 'great spirit' but who wasn't a god. The PCs believed this was a god.
- Jodhara the Monkey God, which was a being with the body of a large monkey and a human skull in place of a head. The local villagers worshipped it as a god. The PCs killed it, but believed it was a god.
-Khaliya, aka The Black Man God, who was worshipped as a god but the PCs felt he was actually a very old sorcerer and not a god. They killed him, too.
- Avatars of Naho, who believe that if they learn the full name of their lost god, they'll become that god re-incarnate. The PCs believed that Naho was a god-in-absentia.
- The giant tentacle that came out of the ground which was worshipped by The Tongueless Cult. None could say whether this was a god or not or what it's name was, but the PCs believed it was only a demon/monster.
- The Queen of the Two Gardens, the Nayah of Marab, who appeared to be an animated statue that the locals worshipped, and yet had a strange numinous quality. The PC jury is out as to whether this was a god or not.

Quote from: Thalaba;599487Same here. In my BAS&S setting, there is no easy definition of what is a 'god'. There are a multitude of beings with powers in the world of varying degree, and any one of these could be worshipped by a community as a 'god'. Some of these beings have a physicial presence, while others do not.

Most communities believe in their own gods, no matter how powerful. Some of these also believe in the existence of other gods. Some believe that the beings others worship are merely spirits or demons. Some believe that all beings with power are merely demons and that anyone who worships a 'god' is really being duped.

In our campaigns, the characters have encountered:
- A formless being with magic powers that the locals worshipped as a 'great spirit' but who wasn't a god. The PCs believed this was a god.
- Jodhara the Monkey God, which was a being with the body of a large monkey and a human skull in place of a head. The local villagers worshipped it as a god. The PCs killed it, but believed it was a god.
-Khaliya, aka The Black Man God, who was worshipped as a god but the PCs felt he was actually a very old sorcerer and not a god. They killed him, too.
- Avatars of Naho, who believe that if they learn the full name of their lost god, they'll become that god re-incarnate. The PCs believed that Naho was a god-in-absentia.
- The giant tentacle that came out of the ground which was worshipped by The Tongueless Cult. None could say whether this was a god or not or what it's name was, but the PCs believed it was only a demon/monster.
- The Queen of the Two Gardens, the Nayah of Marab, who appeared to be an animated statue that the locals worshipped, and yet had a strange numinous quality. The PC jury is out as to whether this was a god or not.

this is exactly what I mean.  In my main setting, more of an 'age of reason meets magic', things are much more explained with much more ancient knowledge....in my Bronze Age stuff, I use a lot of prophecy and heresay.  Questions are not answered as neatly, if at all.  My guys have run into a number of weird hidden cults, including a very shadowy, political one that recruited a few of their former allies...

Quote from: GluttonfuckBack on topic - Kiero, how do you see the question of the Gods?

Are they real and active, or are they 'silent' like in a lot of the old S&S stories. Do priests have access to supernatural power from their God, or is religion more a matter of power structures and political clout?

One approach I find interesting is the one seen in Bernard Cornwell´s Arthur Chronicles, where magic and gods powers are a mixture of tricks, coincidence and psychology deployed by the druids. :)

In my Dark Albion campaign, most of the Scots Men are heathens who "follow the Hawk".

RPGPundit

Quote from: silva;599495One approach I find interesting is the one seen in Bernard Cornwell´s Arthur Chronicles, where magic and gods powers are a mixture of tricks, coincidence and psychology deployed by the druids. :)

Which is a very good exemplar for what I have in mind.

I could just steal the name-source from Exalted, which is Rakshasa. That's clearly not Disney-fairies.

I am curious why you would have Rakshasha (or Fae) but not any active gods.

Quote from: BillDowns;599730I am curious why you would have Rakshasha (or Fae) but not any active gods.

Because I like the idea of a cruel universe that has Outsiders, but no (real, or at least active) gods. And (directed) magic only coming from an evil place.

Besides, I find anthropomorphic gods in fantasy tedious and overdone.

Quote from: Kiero;599757Because I like the idea of a cruel universe that has Outsiders, but no (real, or at least active) gods. And (directed) magic only coming from an evil place.

Besides, I find anthropomorphic gods in fantasy tedious and overdone.

I'm curious to know what is the difference between these Rashasas and gods. If some people in your setting want to start worshipping these magic-providing beings, won't they effectively be gods?

Quote from: Thalaba;599765I'm curious to know what is the difference between these Rashasas and gods. If some people in your setting want to start worshipping these magic-providing beings, won't they effectively be gods?

Why would they worship evil beings that don't respond to their prayers? They're only magic-providing to the people stupid enough to swear pacts with them.

Quote from: Kiero;599766Why would they worship evil beings that don't respond to their prayers? They're only magic-providing to the people stupid enough to swear pacts with them.

You got me there. Faith that one day they will respond, or that gods work in mysterious ways beyond the ken of humans, I guess.

What makes Rakshas 'Evil'? By that I mean who decides that they are evil?

Quote from: Kiero;599766Why would they worship evil beings that don't respond to their prayers?

To avoid their rage ? Out of pure fear ? And, maybe, to direct their rage at their enemies ? Even if it means messing with a force so unpredictable and chaotic as storms and earthquakes (to give an example) ?

Quote from: Thalaba;599765If some people in your setting want to start worshipping these magic-providing beings, won't they effectively be gods?

Good question.

Suppose one of these evil-pact magicians establishes a cult. He's the great and holy leader, bearer of power, and his non-magician acolytes worship him and his patron Rakshasha.

(This is a common element of Pulp Fantasy, isn't it?)

At that point, the difference between "god" and "Rakshasha" is very thin. On the ground, from the POV of the cultists (or people in the area), there is no difference.

Cosmologically speaking, the difference seems unclear. The question comes down to: What, in your mind, qualifies as a "god"?

In this setting, any sufficiently powerful being can be worshipped as a "god". They're all cults to powerful monsters, but that might work for a while.

Suppose there is a Sphinx, who can terrorize a region, but holds back because people propitiate her with sacrifices. This can become a religion, where they build monuments, have gestures or words to ward off the Sphinx (which may or may not work), and host holy days or festivals to offer up sacrifices. In return, the Sphinx leaves them alone.

In this setting, it seems that religions can propitiate strong creatures (those amenable to such deals), garner power from Rakshashas, or just be false. No prayers are answered. Priests either draw power from Rakshashas or are knowledgeable in the lore of propitiating the local chthonic monstrosity.

All of this is interesting and distinctive, but boils down to: There are only maltheistic beings, and the cults that propitiate them. No beneficient gods exist, though churches to them do.

(Note: "Chthonian" — adj. Chthonic — might be a better name than Rakshasha. It's unique and colorful. They're not demons, but super-powerful beings associated with great power and evil.)

The crux is: decide what you think a God is ("benevolent anthropomorphic super-human being who grants prayers and inspires religions") and then you'll know what isn't there. Then fill in what is.

Quote from: silva;598336Also, Glorantha´s Uz, Aldryami and Mostali are non-playable and utterly aliens to humanity (at least thats the default assumption).

A comment about this despite off topic - one of Glorantha's features is how playable non humans are, at least with RQ. Especially since it features the outstanding Trollpak http://grognardia.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/retrospective-trollpak.html (http://grognardia.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/retrospective-trollpak.html) which has to be the best supplement for a 'monster' group ever published and manages to make trolls playable but without making concessions to their strangeness.

There's plenty of instances in a Gloranthan setting I can think of where players have played baboons, centaurs, tapirs, trolls! and yes, ducks as well as the intelligent plants, Aldryami and stone guys, Mostali. So I don't think Glorantha fits into the 'non-humans are inimical to humans' theme.

Bilharzia, I think thats one of the points that may have changed from RQ to HQ. The trolls as presented in Trollpack are very much playable. But I dont think, after reading most of the HQ´s line (and that includes the new Sartar and Pavis) that the non-human races are meant to be playable anymore. These days I think they are intended to be alien and kind of unscrutable to humanity.

Maybe Loz or Jeff (Richard) could clarify it ?

P.S: your avatar is awesome. Who is it ? Some Gilgamesh movie or something ?

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;599787Good question.

Suppose one of these evil-pact magicians establishes a cult. He's the great and holy leader, bearer of power, and his non-magician acolytes worship him and his patron Rakshasha.

(This is a common element of Pulp Fantasy, isn't it?)

Absolutely! In the original Conan tales, I think I'm right in saying that there is only one occasion where Mitra may have manifested his power in the world. Otherwise the religious set-up is as Daddy says.

And isn't it possible to argue that most religious practice in the world of the Ancient Greeks was to propitiate the Gods, so they would let you alone and not rape your daughter while disguised as a swan?

Personally I think this 'no Gods, just deluded worshipers' approach is the correct one for that pulp fantasy feel.

Quote from: silva;599800Bilharzia, I think thats one of the points that may have changed from RQ to HQ. The trolls as presented in Trollpack are very much playable. But I dont think, after reading most of the HQ´s line (and that includes the new Sartar and Pavis) that the non-human races are meant to be playable anymore. These days I think they are intended to be alien and kind of unscrutable to humanity.

Maybe Loz or Jeff (Richard) could clarify it ?

P.S: your avatar is awesome. Who is it ? Some Gilgamesh movie or something ?

You've got me with the new Hero Quest, I'm not familiar with the new Glorantha material written for it. The recent Pavis book is tempting.

The avatar is the sorcerer King Aeetes from the 1963 film Jason and the Argonauts (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057197/) - at the moment Aeetes is conjuring the hydra's teeth...

Great image!

RPGPundit

"What does it mean to be 'Denuri'?

In game mechanics, it means the part of the population that is 'level-capable', one of the great destroyers of any versimilitude for most OSR systems.  I say this based on setting logic, and in terms of how the game mechanics progress in terms of balance.

In Accis, being a very bronze-age, mythic game, the idea of the Denuri is that this is the small part of the population touched by fate, and by the gods.  Now, the Gods have lots of plans and lots of threads that are woven, but this still means most, 99%+ of the population is not Denuri.  With 18,000 inhabitants in the area under her jurisdiction, there are probably just under full150 Denuri, with maybe the same number of potential 'companions to heroes'.  This means a lot of things.

Maybe 40-50 of these are casters, with maybe 25 priests and priest subclasses, maybe15-ish Scholars and scholar subclasses, and the remaining casters are subclasses with a few spells or Oraters.  
Rogues with a major destiny are rare, but they exist, while Fighting Men, warriors with a place in fate, are the most numerous.

Now, this also assumes that Denuri are almost always in positions of power, as heritary lines, etc, are normally more important to the Gods.  And augery, legend, prophecy, etc, all feed into this.  The fact that the high priest of the Furies of the Flame can produce miracles of healing and flame is looked at the same way as when Joras the Butcher wades into a group of 5 'lesser men', coming out battered and bleeding, but unbowed.   Their destiny is graven deeply in the weave; as opposed to the small threads of a normal life.

Now, in play, especially when starting out, this is always interesting.  Since most priests and scholars and Orators cannot cannot cast spells, though it is gauche to use magic lightly, it is pretty easy to prove a PC is Denuri.  Fighters and rogues have it tougher.  But also remember, the stories are full of helpers and foils and people who are heroic enough to test Heroes..."