Quote from: rgrove0172;924206...as its just as far from how RPGs were meant to be played initially.

... did you just try to claim that random encounters weren't part of how D&D was played initially?

You might consider $1 Adventure Frameworks (in my sig). They're designed as mini adventures to drop into a sandbox, to minimise GM prep, and support improvisation. Arm yourself with a these, your fav online NPC name generator, and you should be good to go with 15 mins prep. Best of luck!

I don't see any need to split hairs, so let's say low-prep.  I'm particularly interested in Sine Nomine games, but I wonder how you could deliver the same level of quality for some kinds of games with lots of improvisations.  I've been playing a lot of official DCC adventures lately, and I've come to appreciate how certain encounters and adventure elements have been designed with great care.  If I can't achieve anything like this with sandbox play, then what am I getting in its place?  And how do I get the players to engage with that level of freedom?  Because I'd love to be doing this sort of stuff.

Quote from: Edgewise;924299I've been playing a lot of official DCC adventures lately, and I've come to appreciate how certain encounters and adventure elements have been designed with great care.  If I can't achieve anything like this with sandbox play, then what am I getting in its place?

This is clearly where the style of play and the intent of the adventure have to be both taken into account. I can zero-prep a basic dungeon crawl, but if every adventure was like that then gaming would get stale in a hurry. I have to mix those sessions in with large-prep sessions, such as professional modules or adventures created by myself. Your choice of DCC adventures is a great one, by the way, as I think that the newer ones (the DCC RPG adventures, not those written for d20) are particularly creative and innovative.

Quote from: Headless;924139Not to call bull shit, but I'm going to call bull shit.

And in turn, I'm going to call BS on that.

QuoteOn the other thread there are a bunch of people that say they do 15 minuets or less of prep.   Then they say they do a bunch of campaign prep so the don't have to do session prep.  Then they say they have pre generated dungeons rdy to go.  

I use "zero prep" to mean "no necessity to prepare anything over and above reading the setting and system". Warning: that means exactly what it means.
I can do more prep than that, if I feel like it! I just don't need to. And I can decide not to do any prep.

Like, for my UY game, I prepared the Charlie's Angels, Charlie, and the butler...the way they would be in the Usagi Yojimbo's setting. I didn't need to do that, and there was no way in hell the players could catch the reference unless I told them. Only translating the names took me an hour or so - more prep than I'd done for whole campaigns.
But I didn't need to do that. I did it because I wanted to.
I've also started campaigns by reading the system, period (admittedly, the setting was 17th century China, and I was the most knowledgeable about it at the table).

QuoteSo first of all bull shit you aren't doing zero prep.

Yes I am. If you're misunderstanding what "zero prep" means, that's another matter;).

QuoteSecond of all and more importantly.  Can you teach me your ways?  You have a couple of short cuts and cheats that (from the sounds of it) vastly shorten you prep time (just not down to zero).

Of course I can. In fact, I'm literally writing a book(let) about it, because I'm tired of explaining:D!

QuoteSpecifically. How much campagin prep do you do?

Read the setting, unless you know it already.
Read the system, unless using one that you know already.
Prepare a list of names unless you have one in the book.
You're done with the mandatory parts.
You can detail NPCs and organisations and stuff...you just don't need to.

QuoteHow much time?

Do we include reading the setting and system (as all players should do, too)? I don't include it (because I might well use a system that I know and a setting that I know - after all, it's me who decides).
And to me, that means the answer is "as much as I feel like, minimum zero".

QuoteHow many dungeons do you have preped?

Zero.

QuoteHow many NPCs?

As much as I feel like, minimum zero.

Quote( do you recycle NPCs?)

No. There are archetypes that appear in many of my games, usually because I've met them IRL, but that's not what you're asking about, I believe.

Quoteworld map?

The setting has one, right?

QuoteHow much of a plot do you have?

None apart from what's obvious in the setting, and thus appeared in my head while reading it. Other than that, I only decide what's the starting situation of the PCs.

QuoteIf you are working it out as you go along who takes the notes?  When do you take them, during or after?

Me, after.

QuoteHow long does it take?

As long as it takes me to scribble a page in a pad I've bought for the campaign.

QuoteDungeons.  Do you have a source for pre generated ones?  How long does it take you to build one from scratch?  Renovate one?  

I build them from scratch if I need them. Typically circa 5 minutes/level.

QuotePlease add any other other tricks that can help cut down prep time.  When I was younger I wanted to world build.  Now I just want to play.

Read the booklet:p!

Quote from: Headless;924139Not to call bull shit, but I'm going to call bull shit.  

On the other thread there are a bunch of people that say they do 15 minuets or less of prep.   Then they say they do a bunch of campaign prep so the don't have to do session prep.  Then they say they have pre generated dungeons rdy to go.  

So first of all bull shit you aren't doing zero prep.

You are right and wrong. There is prep just not in the weeks and months before the actual session. What happening in my view is that people who run sessions or even campaigns with zero prep are relying on what I call their Bag of Stuff.

Either one of two things are happening.

1) Their knowledge of the setting and genre is such that prior to running any tabletop RPG they know the material cold. And the chosen rule system resonates with their way of thinking in such a way that they can see how to take that genre knowledge base and translate it into a pen & paper virtual reality for their players to experience.

And/Or

2) Through years of running tabletop campaigns, they have internalized the tropes to such a point that they can recall most of what they need at a moment's notice. That their years experience allows them to run a campaign with little to no preparation.

Note in both cases it is prior experience that is the decisive factor. With experience with what the campaign is about or experience with tabletop roleplaying. Nobody is able to run a tabletop roleplaying with a unfamiliar set of rules, with little knowledge of the genre or setting without preparation.

Quote from: Headless;924139Second of all and more importantly.  Can you teach me your ways?  You have a couple of short cuts and cheats that (from the sounds of it) vastly shorten you prep time (just not down to zero).

There is a technique called Palace of Memory, there are various books out there that teaches you various technique so that you can learn to use it to improve your recall. Now my point is NOT, I repeat NOT that you need to learn Palace of Memory specifically, only that there are technique you can learn to improve how you remember stuff. Which set ACTUALLY works for YOU is variable. I will only say that is that there is something out there that will help and it is different for everybody.

Whatever it is, you use it to internalize and memorize what you need to run a campaign off the cuff.

For example think of a orc camp, how many orcs are living in there, what are they doing at any point in the day, what resources they have, who are their resident allies, and so forth and son. Then think of the range of variation in the above. Once you have satisfied yourself that got a grip on what a orc camp is for you, then you can use that to run a orc camp on the fly. You knowledge of the variation means you can make each orc camp different enough so that they are not carbon copies of each.

Often you will find that your internal stereotype are your best friend. If I ask you think of a suave secret agent, what is the first thing that leaps into your mind. Rely on that intuition.

Do this for each element of the campaign are important. And practice inbetween session by asking what would X look like and coming up with answer. Do this often enough and it will become second nature to you.

Make sure you read everything on the genre or setting you want to run. As yourself a lot of what ifs and what does it look like questions over and over again. Again once you have internalized that information by whatever means works for you, you will be able to run those things with little or to no prep.

Objective of this to build up your mental Bag of Stuff to the point where you pull out what you need when you need it.

But..... which lead the answer for this.

Quote from: Headless;924139Specifically. How much campagin prep do you do?  How much time?  How many dungeons do you have preped?  How many NPCs? ( do you recycle NPCs?) world map?  How much of a plot do you have?

First a story, back in 2010 after running a number of convention games to play Scourge of the Demon Wolf and some other things I was developing, I was looking at a unkeyed map I made a decade ago. The idea grew in my head "What if I just walked in a convention slot with the just the map, the name of the adventure, and my Swords & Wizardry books?". After looking at a couple of random generators, I decided to call it Night Bride's Coven. And the description in the convention booklet read something like. "A OD&D adventure using the Swords & Wizardry rules exploring a dungeon that is home to a evil group of warlocks."

I ran this successfully twice. Making up everything as I went along. Obviously after the first session, I was prepared for the second session. However I did tweak some things that didn't go as smooth as I liked. Namely a magical device with buttons and levers that controlled a magical danger room the warlocks used for training. I am not good at coming up with puzzles like that and often need to do several passes before arriving at something interesting.

My thoughts on the experience? Well it was nice that I was able to do that and felt proud of being able to do it without it being a disaster. The players did not knew I was just making the whole thing up step by step. In fact the first group had two regulars from my game store campaign and they specifically commented that this was one of the better adventures I had prepared (looking sheepish).

However it something I don't want to do on a regular basis. It was really hard to remain consistent and in hindsight there wasn't as much variety.

My conclusion is this, you need both if you want to master the art of refereeing. That referee that do some level of preparation will run better campaign on average than referee who don't.  And referee that do preparation are better off if they can learn how to ad-lib entire adventures. That the exact mix is dependent on how the individual referee processes information and the way they handle things during a session. But keep in mind given the flexibility of RPGs individual sessions within a campaign may require different levels of preparation. When it comes to actual play it varies by a lot. It best to learn to be flexible and handle both situation rather than to do assume it all going to be one thing or the other. The goal to adopt the best approach for the upcoming and prepare only what you need no more and no less.

Quote from: Headless;924139If you are working it out as you go along who takes the notes?  When do you take them, during or after?  How long does it take?

If you ad-lib and want to remain consistent you will need to take notes. The exact form of the notes depends on how you think. For me I can remember things easily when they are ordered in a timeline. So that I how I write my notes as series of events. That servers a master key into my memory for what I was thinking at various points.

Quote from: Headless;924139Dungeons.  Do you have a source for pre generated ones?  How long does it take you to build one from scratch?  Renovate one?

I working on this, I have my how to make a fantasy sandbox series for setting prep. And I developing something similar to serve as an aide for the mass production of dungeon levels. Think of it as not only covering what the donjon's random dungeon generator does but tells you how to translate the results into something original to your campaign.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;924268... did you just try to claim that random encounters weren't part of how D&D was played initially?

Not at all. Random encounters have always been a sideline in RPGs as long as I can remember. Let me be clear, there is NO RIGHT WAY to play a roleplaying game, despite what some where will claim. Everyone is free to find what style and approach works best for them and its really very closed minded to criticize anyone for using a method that they enjoy.

 I was merely saying that generally speaking the assumption in the earliest RPG days was that the GM would "prepare" an adventure. Most of the early books (heck most books even to this day!) make some sort of statement to that effect. Its absolutely fine if a GM decides not to and his players don't mind a bit of improve but its deviating from convention, just as other variations of roleplaying do. (Storygaming, "Railroading approaches to plot management" etc.)

There are no good or bads ways to play, just different ways to play.

In addition I would have to add that some of these arguments are heavily influenced by what is not being said as much as what is. I see a lot of comments regarding Dungeons for example. Much of what is being stated here seems to be centered around the idea that most if not all sessions take place in a dungeon crawl. I for one, and I assume many others, only rarely exercise this time honored tradition. I don't think I've run an actual dungeon crawl in the last, oh, 5 years or so despite playing dozens of games.

Zero prep for a contained, focused adventure in a dungeon is one thing. Zero prep for a world spanning, intricately plotted, multi-setting adventure with dozens of different locales, NPCs, cultures, historical background, diplomatic intrigue, sub plots and interlaced mini adventures, and so on is another thing entirely.

I think most of us could print out a random map off the internet and run a hack through it without any prep at all. Zero Prepping something like "Game of Thrones" would be a bit more challenging. Not saying it couldn't be done, only that it would be tough.

Quote from: rgrove0172;924206Ill catch some shit for this but I cant resist the temptation.

You're right. Glad you knew it in advance and it was a conscious decision:).
*cracks knuckles*

QuoteI find it weird that the same people that crucify someone for 'railroading' their players by moving a planned encounter in front of them no matter the choices they make are perfectly fine with waiting till they actually make a choice then plopping down an instantly created encounter. It amounts to the same thing.

Which are those people? Do you mean...oh, people like me, for example;)?
Because no, I'm not "fine with that". You just prove you weren't paying attention last time I tried to explain it. I have decided what the encounters are going to be before they made a choice. It might be 10 seconds after I presented them with the choice...but it is before, not after, they'd made the decision.

QuoteThere is no way to discern if said encounter was actually created without bias to their decision or not.

Bullshit. I can, and so can my wife.
"Reading people" isn't some obscure skillset, it's the basis of day-to-day interaction. And it gets easier if you've been in that guy's shoes. I've done that, so it's not exactly hard to spot what you're doing if you try

The rest of this post is thus not worth addressing, since it rests on an erroneous understanding of what other people do.

Quote from: rgrove0172;924333Not at all. Random encounters have always been a sideline in RPGs as long as I can remember. Let me be clear, there is NO RIGHT WAY to play a roleplaying game, despite what some where will claim. Everyone is free to find what style and approach works best for them and its really very closed minded to criticize anyone for using a method that they enjoy.

True, that. That's about the only thing in that post I agree with, though.
Also, it does not follow that we can't have preferences regarding what the GMs do or don't do.

QuoteI was merely saying that generally speaking the assumption in the earliest RPG days was that the GM would "prepare" an adventure. Most of the early books (heck most books even to this day!) make some sort of statement to that effect.

As we noticed last time you mentioned it, "most books" don't do that. "Most books that rgrove reads" do that, but that's a subset of the first.

QuoteIn addition I would have to add that some of these arguments are heavily influenced by what is not being said as much as what is. I see a lot of comments regarding Dungeons for example. Much of what is being stated here seems to be centered around the idea that most if not all sessions take place in a dungeon crawl. I for one, and I assume many others, only rarely exercise this time honored tradition. I don't think I've run an actual dungeon crawl in the last, oh, 5 years or so despite playing dozens of games.

Not really. I haven't run a dungeon in years, too.

QuoteZero prep for a contained, focused adventure in a dungeon is one thing. Zero prep for a world spanning, intricately plotted, multi-setting adventure with dozens of different locales, NPCs, cultures, historical background, diplomatic intrigue, sub plots and interlaced mini adventures, and so on is another thing entirely.

That's my default style, complete with zero-prep. No, I'm not that special;).

QuoteI think most of us could print out a random map off the internet and run a hack through it without any prep at all. Zero Prepping something like "Game of Thrones" would be a bit more challenging. Not saying it couldn't be done, only that it would be tough.

If I made the plots as shallow as those in Game of Thrones, I suspect my players would lynch me:D!

Estar has a good point, Headless.  For example, I ran so much Shadowrun in Seattle, give me a set of PCs, and I can come with a run on the fly because I've completely internalized the Setting, System, NPCs over years of play.  That's not Zero Prep, it's "Bag O' Stuff", "Setting Mastery", "Prep via Play" whatever you want to call it.

That's not what Asen claims he does.  He claims he can basically freeball an entire campaign.  I know of only one other person who claims that, JibbaJibba.  As a side gig, Jibba runs professional Murder Mystery weekends, so he obviously has some acting chops, can think on his feet, a great memory, and can be creative in the very short term.  If Asen is similarly skilled, then I doubt learning techniques are going to get you 100% there, I think some natural ability is involved.

The one thing that I suspect aids Jibba, Asen or anyone who is low or zero prep is that they can be very entertaining as a GM.  I've noticed the more fun players are having interacting with everything, the less likely they are to notice any inconsistencies or small details.  The arrive in a city, get caught up in something, move through the city focused on a goal, and then move on, they might not even notice there was no map, and they visited two places in a city of a hundred thousand people.  Sometimes GMs are so worried about the Macro-setting, that they forget most of the time, the players are dealing with the Micro-setting.

How many NPCs do you absolutely NEED to prepare? As many as the PCs talk to.  When you look at it that way, it becomes easier to see how Asen and Jibba might be doing it.

I don't do zero prep games. If people can do it, or have figured it out, I certainly envy them, because that does free up a lot of time. I will say that my prep time has steadily minimized as it became more efficient and a lot of my prep can be done quickly the deeper I get into a campaign. I tend to cycle things though. Some weeks I may prep quite a bit if I am developing something extensive and developments in the game clearly call for it, some sessions I may only need to prep 30 minutes to an hour for.

Quote from: rgrove0172;924333Zero prep for a contained, focused adventure in a dungeon is one thing. Zero prep for a world spanning, intricately plotted, multi-setting adventure with dozens of different locales, NPCs, cultures, historical background, diplomatic intrigue, sub plots and interlaced mini adventures, and so on is another thing entirely.

I think most of us could print out a random map off the internet and run a hack through it without any prep at all. Zero Prepping something like "Game of Thrones" would be a bit more challenging. Not saying it couldn't be done, only that it would be tough.

Actually I could do it the other way.  I could run a massive geopolitical Game of thrones type game with no prep other than my collection of names. I am terrible with names so I have started keeping a list of ones that sound good to me.  First session I would jot down a family tree and go.  Take notes as I go along.  I would have been thinking about it for weeks a head of time and I can remember stories so that lines up in my mind.   It would be better if I did more prep of course.

I wouldn't be satisfied with a random dungeon crawl.  If there is a random locked door in room 9 where is the key, it can't be in rooms 1-8 they already looked and it want there yet because the door and the need for it didn't exist.  Why does the beholder in room 13 tolerate the goblins?  What is the secret path the Drugar in room 3 use to get through the traps in room 18 does that leave clues?  Why don't the kobolds steel the treasure?  

These things bother me.  I don't put a Micky Dee's in so I worry about what they eat.

Quote from: CRKrueger;924343Estar has a good point, Headless.  For example, I ran so much Shadowrun in Seattle, give me a set of PCs, and I can come with a run on the fly because I've completely internalized the Setting, System, NPCs over years of play.  That's not Zero Prep, it's "Bag O' Stuff", "Setting Mastery", "Prep via Play" whatever you want to call it.

That's not what Asen claims he does.  He claims he can basically freeball an entire campaign.

Right.
One of my latest campaigns exemplifies that like no other: a friend calls me on Skype and pulls me in a group conversation almost before I went to sleep.
"We're all new players here, (except for said friend, and he's not really an old hand either) who want to try RPGs. Can you run a game for them?"'(Round of introductions skipped).
"Sure. When do you want to play?"
"Can we meet tomorrow after noon?"
"Yes. What genre do you want to play?"
A discussion followed. They settled on pirates. I was reading Legend of the Wulin.
"How about...kung-fu pirates?"
"Like (anime I'd never heard of, and didn't watch)? Deal!"
"OK. Just keep in mind I've never head of this until today, so you get my option. Now, here's a free system you'd better read, if you want to..."
I hadn't read the system until then, either. Then I went to sleep.
The campaign continued over two years with weekly 6+ hours sessions (and 12 hours wasn't an exception, either). They went from pirates to kingmakers.

QuoteI know of only one other person who claims that, JibbaJibba.  As a side gig, Jibba runs professional Murder Mystery weekends, so he obviously has some acting chops, can think on his feet, a great memory, and can be creative in the very short term.  If Asen is similarly skilled, then I doubt learning techniques are going to get you 100% there, I think some natural ability is involved.

"I have the feeling people who don't train as hard as me say I'm talented in order to have an excuse why they aren't training like me" - Musashi Myamoto, from the "Musashi" novel of Yoshikawa Eiji (double translation and quoting by memory, so this might not be the exact words - but I've kept the point).

I have no acting training, apart from less than a couple months of improv theatre (which I only had after said campaign concluded). And I strongly doubt I'm a natural - I couldn't do that when I started. I analyzed the task and trained in order to learn it.
Then again, I've seen even people that seemed totally devoid of any gift to improvise learning to do it with exercises. So no, you can learn it. If you try to learn it, that is.

QuoteThe one thing that I suspect aids Jibba, Asen or anyone who is low or zero prep is that they can be very entertaining as a GM.  I've noticed the more fun players are having interacting with everything, the less likely they are to notice any inconsistencies or small details.  The arrive in a city, get caught up in something, move through the city focused on a goal, and then move on, they might not even notice there was no map, and they visited two places in a city of a hundred thousand people.  Sometimes GMs are so worried about the Macro-setting, that they forget most of the time, the players are dealing with the Micro-setting.

How many NPCs do you absolutely NEED to prepare? As many as the PCs talk to.  When you look at it that way, it becomes easier to see how Asen and Jibba might be doing it.

Do you mind me quoting you in the book I mentioned;)? Because that's how you do it, except you (most likely) don't prepare those NPCs - you ad-lib them.
Or maybe you don't, if you had an idea and devoted it some thought...the players are unlikely to know. And that's a way to surprise them.

No, that's not an incredible skill. I witnessed how people in the improv class went from unable to think of a character to able to play a character on order in less than a month. There's like three simple exercises you need to do. Not that much to ask for, isn't it?

Quote from: AsenRG;924348No, that's not an incredible skill. I witnessed how people in the improv class went from unable to think of a character to able to play a character on order in less than a month. There's like three simple exercises you need to do. Not that much to ask for, isn't it?

I found it to be a combination of practice, practice, practice and the willingness to be honest with yourself about how well the players responded to your technique.

Quote from: Headless;924346These things bother me.  I don't put a Micky Dee's in so I worry about what they eat.

Which is why you use the randomly generated dungeon as starting point. What I do is that if I don't like a result I reroll it until I find something that works. Most of the time what happens is that I will see a couple of things that inspire me and it will set the tone of the level or area. I will then jettison the other random results and supply my own details. It doesn't take as long because I am hanging everything off of what inspired me.

The problem I find is that people think the result of random generation is the end result. When I started thinking of it as a first step it became much more useful.

In all honesty and with no ill intent whatsoever I need to ask how you Zero Preppers contend with ideas on how to improve something that you already blurted out to the players during play?

I know that when working on a game Ill come up with an idea, flesh it out and write it down then perhaps a few minutes, hours or even days later have one of those "Oh wow, yeah that's way better!" moments and go back and change it.

Im trying to imagine dropping a town in front of the players or something then a few minutes later or the next day or whatever realizing "Oh crap, it would have been so much better had I done this instead!" It doesn't bother you guys? You don't feel like you short changed the players because you didn't give yourself the time to consider options, repercussions, alternatives etc?

I know while prepping a recent game I came up with an idea for a race of Giants. I worked them all up and was pretty happy with the result and then while reading something totally unrelated the next day an different idea for them just popped into my head. I went back and made the change and frankly it was a huge improvement over the original. So much so Im really glad I didn't spring the first version of Giants on my players.

If you zero prep you don't have that luxury and are forced to contend with whatever just happened to pop up. Sometimes good, maybe sometimes great, but certainly sometimes not as good and worthy of a little more time and effort, if you had it.

Im just curious, don't want to pick a fight. How do you contend with this potentiality?