One thing that is often overlooked in using the police against PCs is that often the PC's are all but anonymous to their crime.  They are not generally robbing or murdering or adventuring in their family or social circle, they are dealing with virtual strangers. Police tend to look at people they can readily identify first as suspects. Some random schlub off the street, no matter how distinctive looking, who they've only heard about from a less than reliable witness (most of them) is a low priority.

Not that any of that helps Jimbo, who's players pretty much announced themselves boldly every step of the way.

This even holds true of physical evidence. Just because the police have a finger print doesn't mean they know who it belongs to. If the PC's don't have a criminal record, and particularly if they are new to the area they might not show up in the investigation at all, and if the finger print is a minor one (say, from the door to the room where a murder was commited. Some fingerprints are innocent.) then they won't spend much effort tracking it down.

Now, when such evidence does matter is when the PC's DO get involved in the investigation.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerIn my experience, bringing in the cops only means a lot of dead cops due to the ways that the rules of many games work.  Actually producing results that ought to come of such an intervention often requires severely bending of the rules, if not outright breakage.  Autonomy is a big gamer culture issue, often assured by personal power, and when threatened (let alone violated) produces massacres.

Well, it's also a fine line that PCs are expected to walk.  If any PCs actually did just cooperate with the police and obey the law, then they'd very likely totally destroy the GM's plan for adventure and piss her off as well.  

Quote from: SpikeNot that any of that helps Jimbo, who's players pretty much announced themselves boldly every step of the way.

Well, this is partly a case of the above, I think.  So in Jimbo's case, the PC's (Erica specifically) called the police and gave them her name and address -- then waited for them to arrive.  Since they had nothing to do with the crime and simply found the body, that seems like a fairly sane thing to do. However, as it turned out, this was the key which got them in all the trouble.  When the police showed up they immediately drew their guns on her and her friends and cuffed them all, and later began beating one of them when he told them not to say anything.

Hey, why not send the police after the PCs? Even james bond had run ins with the cops once in a while. Plus run ins with the cops can be amusing at times, just look at the fun james bond had with sherrif pepper....

Quote from: jhkimWell, this is partly a case of the above, I think.  So in Jimbo's case, the PC's (Erica specifically) called the police and gave them her name and address -- then waited for them to arrive.  Since they had nothing to do with the crime and simply found the body, that seems like a fairly sane thing to do. However, as it turned out, this was the key which got them in all the trouble.  When the police showed up they immediately drew their guns on her and her friends and cuffed them all, and later began beating one of them when he told them not to say anything.

Which makes me wonder why Jimbo is so lamenting what his players have done that has ruined his game. While Erica's actions were obviously going to make the PC's show up as potential suspects, their actions were normal, justafiable and even rational, and the NPC's actions were vastly over the top. I'm sure the Players are wondering at why Jimmy is complaining about the way the game is headed to prison territory when he jumped them with extreme prejudice. They are probably looking for a way out too...

Quote from: SpikeOne thing that is often overlooked in using the police against PCs is that often the PC's are all but anonymous to their crime. [...]

Not that any of that helps Jimbo, who's players pretty much announced themselves boldly every step of the way.

This even holds true of physical evidence. Just because the police have a finger print doesn't mean they know who it belongs to.

Exactly. I tried to put that across... you can get away... they don't know your name... okay, your prints are on the murder weapon, but you have no criminal record so they don't have your prints anyway... But... as you say, they kept announcing themselves.

Quote from: jhkimSince they had nothing to do with the crime and simply found the body, that seems like a fairly sane thing to do. However, as it turned out, this was the key which got them in all the trouble. When the police showed up they immediately drew their guns on her and her friends and cuffed them all, and later began beating one of them when he told them not to say anything.

If you read the complete account, you'll see that when the cops showed up,

• Edward had blood on his hands
• Cadel was carrying a heavy iron bar, and also had blood on his hands
• Erica had in her hand a digicamcorder, which was black, and had a pistol grip handhold control

Given that they were coming to investigate a girl whose remains had been described as bloody, beaten and shot...

Also, before the PCs called the cops, they'd asked, "what are the cops like in this town?" I responded, "violent and corrupt. Why do you think the crime rate's so high?" I told them that the police went around all armed, all wearing vests, and they tended to react to confrontations with overwhelming force.

So it shouldn't have been a great surprise to them...

Quote from: SpikeWhich makes me wonder why Jimbo is so lamenting what his players have done that has ruined his game. While Erica's actions were obviously going to make the PC's show up as potential suspects, their actions were normal, justafiable and even rational, and the NPC's actions were vastly over the top.

They haven't ruined the game. We're having great fun. I just don't know where the game is going. I've never said to players, "you fucked up, campaign over." It's just that they're taking the campaign to a place - either prison, or more violence - and I'm wondering if they really want to go there. So I started that thread to consider what other places it could be taken to.

They can look the cops up in the phone book, sneak into their homes at night and beat them to death, I don't care. But is that the sort of campaign they want to play? I don't know!

My philosophy is that the GM is there to offer the players options, choices. There should always be a range of options available, but sometimes PCs' actions narrow that range. I was looking for a way to open it up again. Notice that I called the thread "what to do when PCs fuck themselves up," not "what to do when PCs fuck the campaign up."

Everyone is having fun, therefore the campaign is going GREAT. I just don't know WHERE it's going, is all. I'd like to figure that out, and make sure the PCs have a choice about it, make sure they don't just stumble over that way by accident and then decide they don't like it.

Quote from: JimBobOzIf you read the complete account, you'll see that when the cops showed up,

• Edward had blood on his hands
• Cadel was carrying a heavy iron bar, and also had blood on his hands
• Erica had in her hand a digicamcorder, which was black, and had a pistol grip handhold control

Given that they were coming to investigate a girl whose remains had been described as bloody, beaten and shot...

Er, yes?  While I can picture what you say happening, if I were there with blood on me -- having called the police and waited for them -- I'd expect them to say something like "Oh, my God!  What happened to you?" rather than immediately drawing their guns on me.  Now, as you said, the police in that area are violent and corrupt -- so maybe it happens that they just want to blame the first people they see.  

Whether it is realistic or not, though, the experience of calling the police and having them immediately draw their guns on you and beat you is going to pretty strongly drive their future actions.  Bear in mind that a common realistic response is probably to go away for a while and have nothing to do with the police or the murder -- but the players are going to be biased against this for the sake of your adventure.  You should be careful not to punish them for this.  

Quote from: JimBobOzEveryone is having fun, therefore the campaign is going GREAT. I just don't know WHERE it's going, is all. I'd like to figure that out, and make sure the PCs have a choice about it, make sure they don't just stumble over that way by accident and then decide they don't like it.

Sure.  Did you see my suggestion about the District Attorney offering them a deal to help in prosecuting Seaton's dad and his cronies for corruption and cover-up?

Jimmy...while I can see your point with the blood and the weapony looking stuff, cops in such a violent town should probably be used to stupid civvies mucking up crime scenes by now. You know...' hey officer, I found this gun inside, I think it might be the murder weapon...'  absolutely the wrong thing to do, but ten to one, common as dirt.  

You gave these cops an overreaction I wouldn't expect from anyone shy of people PRETENDING to be cops.  Rookie trainee's out thinking they are the real deal or something.

Now, if you had a phonecall to the cops saying they just saw some people bust in and the sounds of screaming and shooting and the 'CROOKS ARE STILL THERE!!!" then... THEN I'd say your cops were just about right on the money in their reaction. THough I do expect more shouting about 'put the weapons down' rather than tackles... something that might make the players realize just how guilty they look. Maybe.

Quote from: SpikeYou gave these cops an overreaction I wouldn't expect from anyone shy of people PRETENDING to be cops.  Rookie trainee's out thinking they are the real deal or something.

Here in Australia, police officers have shot dead people who later turned out to have... beer bottles.

Some cops are just jumpy. "PC" also stands for "Police Constable."

Quote from: JimBobOzHere in Australia, police officers have shot dead people who later turned out to have... beer bottles.

Some cops are just jumpy. "PC" also stands for "Police Constable."

Hey, kids here have been shot for squirtguns, lazer tag and just looking armed.  Doesn't change what police procedure SHOULD be.  If the cops are jumpy they shoot first, otherwise they make demands from a safe position and move along from there.  Doesn't sound like they had a reason to be jumpy.  

Cooperation on non-tyrannical demands (put the weapons down! On the ground!) tends to elict far more open minded behavior.   And if they are corrupt, where was the offer to remove tehm from teh suspect list for... favors?:confused:

Quote from: SpikeHey, kids here have been shot for squirtguns, lazer tag and just looking armed.  Doesn't change what police procedure SHOULD be.  If the cops are jumpy they shoot first, otherwise they make demands from a safe position and move along from there.  Doesn't sound like they had a reason to be jumpy.

Shoulda coulda woulda... it is what it is.

The cops were jumpy because they saw two guys with blood on their hands, one guy with a big iron bar, and another with something that looked like a firearm. Then they found a bloodied handgun on the guy with the iron bar. Then two of them went downstairs and saw the brutally cut-up and shot remains of a young woman. So now they were disgusted and pissed-off. THEN one guy - one with blood on his hands - started yelling about his rights, and so they gave him a kick and told him to shut up. They thought they were kicking a murderer. THEN one guy attacked them. So...

Of course this is all much clearer if you read the account of what happened. Or maybe you can just continue widly speculating, I guess that could be more fun for you

Quote from: SpikeAnd if they are corrupt, where was the offer to remove tehm from teh suspect list for... favors?:confused:

The chances of that went out the window when the PCs attacked them.

One police officer was knocked down, and had his head repeatedely smashed into the tiles until his skull cracked and blood came. A second officer was struck in the groin and had a testicle ruptured. The suspect then ran away, while a second also ran, taking the murder weapon with him.

Even the most corrupt cops don't accept bribes after that.

Of course you'd know that if you'd read the account of it.

Speculation is more fun. I did actually read it... two days ago I think, when you first started all this.  Since I neither typed it, nor participated in it, you'll have to forgive me for not... you know... memorizing it.

But you know, screw it, your players obviously were overreacting twits without a clue how they presented themselves and you apparently push their buttons pretty good regarding rage stimulii to make matters worse ( tyrants? killing kitties on a cell phone? Wow, is it a goal to hit a rage stimulus ever session now?)

Should I even bother to ask what happened to the cell phone with the incriminating pictures on it? Or is it in the OP?

Quote from: SpikeBut you know, screw it, your players obviously were overreacting twits without a clue how they presented themselves

I didn't say that. I specifically said my players aren't stupid. They just got carried away, which all of us do. I mean, it's the sign of a fun game session that everyone gets so into it that they do silly things.

We had fun.

Quote from: Spikeand you apparently push their buttons pretty good regarding rage stimulii to make matters worse ( tyrants? killing kitties on a cell phone? Wow, is it a goal to hit a rage stimulus ever session now?)

I created the plot first, and the players created their characters afterwards. It was the player who said, "I think his dictator rage stimulus will kick in now..." It hadn't occurred to me, and I would have happily let him argue it shouldn't, or roll to control his temper or something. But he wanted his character to let loose.

The tortured cat was, as I said, developed before anyone had made their characters. I thought that if they looked at the guy's mobile phone camera, it'd be when he wasn't around. I thought that they'd burglarise his place, or swipe it from him and look at it somewhere else. I didn't think they'd be standing there smacking him over while cycling through his old messages and pictures!

I didn't make those things up on the spot just to trigger their rage stimuli.

Quote from: SpikeShould I even bother to ask what happened to the cell phone with the incriminating pictures on it? Or is it in the OP?

Which one? Seaton's? They took it with them after leaving him in the skip bin in the alleyway.

The digicamcorder that Erica had filmed the murder scene with they kicked under the vending machine and went back and recovered it a few days later.

Quote from: WarthurWhat are people's thoughts about the place of the police in modern-day games, and games in a setting with a highly visible police force?

My general rule is, that if you're doing stuff - and doing it loudly - that attracts the attention of the police, don't be surprised when they show up. Introducing cops into the equation is tricky. Once they get involved, the campaign takes a different turn.

Off course I'm not going to go overboard on the verisimilitude, but stuff like interrogations, arrest etc, are time consuming, and the leads that the pcs were following could go cold by the time they clear up, the mess. That's even if clearing it up is possible. Once lawyers start coming into the picture, you might as well stop playing and prepare for an extended episode of Law & Order

So, most of the time, in my modern day horror/thriller campaigns, the characters depending on how deep they are in the mystery are always avoiding the law.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIt's been a while since I've had a look at that system (and, admittedly, it's a feature I never really paid close attention to).  It seems to me that, with a fairly minimum amount of effort, you could come up with a system of bonuses and penalties that the players could affect upon the roll -- efforts to hide the crime, particularly careless actions or unfortunate circumstances, etc.  In this way, the results of the roll are not entirely out of the players' hands.

I don't have the system to hand (sorry hgjs) but the way it's set up in Nephilim tends to work like this.

Specifically, if the PCs do a decent job of hiding the crime, choosing when and where they're going to do it, concealing evidence and whatnot, that'll drive up the "difficulty of finding evidence" number, which will make the resistance table roll more difficult. Conversely, if things go terribly wrong, that'll drive down the "difficulty of finding evidence" number, and could even drive up the "severity of crime" number ("Shit! They know our names! Now we have to waste all the witnesses.")

Quote from: David ROff course I'm not going to go overboard on the verisimilitude, but stuff like interrogations, arrest etc, are time consuming, and the leads that the pcs were following could go cold by the time they clear up, the mess. That's even if clearing it up is possible. Once lawyers start coming into the picture, you might as well stop playing and prepare for an extended episode of Law & Order

So, most of the time, in my modern day horror/thriller campaigns, the characters depending on how deep they are in the mystery are always avoiding the law.

My current Call of Cthulhu campaign is Victorian London rather than modern-day, so they have a police force but it lacks many modern qualities.  The PCs are all reasonably upstanding middle class gentlemen, and I gave them a friendly contact fairly highly placed on the police force.  (Inspector Craig, who believes in the unknown to a fair degree, though they aren't sure of his loyalties.)  So while they have had troubles with the law, they haven't had any trouble over little stuff.  When they got in trouble, it was for big things rather than petty charges.  

One of their adventures included that the Deacon of Rochester Cathedral was being controlled by an evil power and involved in dark magics.  To stop his evil plan, they snuck onto the cathedral with guns and dynamite -- planning to stop him and blow up the clay statue of Christ which he could animate.  When two of them were caught in the aftermath -- now that's getting in trouble.