Quote from: Tetsubo;692946I am attempting to understand why people like the OSR category of games.

Quote from: Zak S;692951Then ask that.

For a start, consider the actual substantive differences that people who prefer a "new school" of D&D (or other example of doing things in conscious contrast to old D&D) offer as examples of why they don't like "old school" games.

Simple, high-level explanation: Different people like different things. Some people enjoy the kind of experience that an older model of game provides, while some do not, and likewise with newer models.

Digging deeper gets increasingly complex, as human beings are interweavings of countless formative phenomena.

Quote from: Simlasa;692928I see you pushing that definition/differentiation but I don't think it's really on the radar of most folks and capitalization seems a weak landmark to declare which road you're on.
Not that 'OSR' has any meaning at all to most of the guys I play with... none of whom seem to ever visit gaming forums.

Regardless of the label there is a large group of gamers playing, publishing, or promoting classic editions of D&D or rules that are very similar. It is a very real distinction that a lot of people, including myself, had some success with both in terms of publishing for profit and number of downloads.

My personal estimate is that the group as a whole is about as large as the audience and well known as a third tier publisher. Savage Worlds, Fate, BRP, GURPS, etc. That it is dwarfed by Pathfinder and D&D 4e.

So yes you are correct in saying that the term OSR is not on the radar of most folks. But same can be said of the above systems. But it is a known term used by many.

Quote from: estar;693012So yes you are correct in saying that the term OSR is not on the radar of most folks. But same can be said of the above systems. But it is a known term used by many.

I wasn't referring to 'OSR' I was referring to the distinction between 'OSR' and 'osr'... in regards to the capitalization. Yeah, a LOT of folks have no clue what any version of OSR means... the the number who pay notice to that capitalization scheme is a minute subset of those.

Quote from: Simlasa;693027I wasn't referring to 'OSR' I was referring to the distinction between 'OSR' and 'osr'... in regards to the capitalization. Yeah, a LOT of folks have no clue what any version of OSR means... the the number who pay notice to that capitalization scheme is a minute subset of those.

My opinion is that most gamers that are aware of the osr regardless of capitalization knows that it refers to classic D&D editions. Because that how it was presented in various articles found on Wizards, Escapist, Penny Arcade, and it appears as a D&D subcategory on RPGNow.

I tend to come down on the oSr side of things, and thus would attempt to explain to the newbies why I will have nothing to do with the osR fucktards.

I mean, I would if I had any human contact unmediated by my computer.

Quote from: Simlasa;692928I see you pushing that definition/differentiation but I don't think it's really on the radar of most folks and capitalization seems a weak landmark to declare which road you're on.

Yup.

I say this from the bottom of my heart as someone who is both an OSR publisher and also someone who really does wish it'd gone the other way, but it's time to give it a rest already.

OSR means D&D editions/retroclones. It just does. The war is over.

I'm sorry it didn't evolve to be broader, but that's just the way the culture played out and there's not a damn thing you or I can do about it now.

Raging about it on the one hand, or inventing backwards definitions for things to try and placate the raging on the other, doesn't help anything.

Stormbringer had the right idea: vintage games for everything else. OSR is D&D now, and it ain't gonna change no matter how much anyone wants it to be otherwise, and crucially, there isn't anything wrong with that.

It's just a label, one that's only as useful as how descriptive it is, and it's plenty descriptive of the thing it's come to be about. There really isn't any confusion on what 'OSR' means to anyone but people with a vested interest in clouding that definition.

Quote from: J Arcane;693115Yup.

I say this from the bottom of my heart as someone who is both an OSR publisher and also someone who really does wish it'd gone the other way, but it's time to give it a rest already.

OSR means D&D editions/retroclones. It just does. The war is over.

I'm sorry it didn't evolve to be broader, but that's just the way the culture played out and there's not a damn thing you or I can do about it now.

Raging about it on the one hand, or inventing backwards definitions for things to try and placate the raging on the other, doesn't help anything.

Stormbringer had the right idea: vintage games for everything else. OSR is D&D now, and it ain't gonna change no matter how much anyone wants it to be otherwise, and crucially, there isn't anything wrong with that.

It's just a label, one that's only as useful as how descriptive it is, and it's plenty descriptive of the thing it's come to be about. There really isn't any confusion on what 'OSR' means to anyone but people with a vested interest in clouding that definition.

Um, no. What fucking "war"? The OSR was never solely about D&D editions/retroclones. Get over it. It always transcended D&D, and included games like Traveller, Runequest, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, etc.

That's what the label is, and that's what it means. Period. Words do mean things, you know.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;693176Um, no. What fucking "war"? The OSR was never solely about D&D editions/retroclones. Get over it. It always transcended D&D, and included games like Traveller, Runequest, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, etc.

That's what the label is, and that's what it means. Period. Words do mean things, you know.

Is there a single published product with an OSR label on it that isn't a D&D-based product?

The originators of the OSR and the people who publish and blog under that name, really meant a old-school D&D Revival.

There's tons of people who want OSR to mean something else, and I'm one of them, but I don't see Loz and Pete mentioning OSR in relation to any RQ6 products, or Mongoose with Traveller, etc...

OSR from a publishing standpoint, still means "compatible with Original through OGL D&D".

Quote from: CRKrueger;693180Is there a single published product with an OSR label on it that isn't a D&D-based product?

The originators of the OSR and the people who publish and blog under that name, really meant a old-school D&D Revival.

There's tons of people who want OSR to mean something else, and I'm one of them, but I don't see Loz and Pete mentioning OSR in relation to any RQ6 products, or Mongoose with Traveller, etc...

OSR from a publishing standpoint, still means "compatible with Original through OGL D&D".

Meh. That's just marketing, and there are many people who don't see it that way....myself among them. Words do have an actual meaning, and we shouldn't let people just co-opt language for their own questionable purposes. I mean, can anyone sit here with a straight face and say that Runequest (for example) isn't "old school"? Or Metamorphosis Alpha? No, definitely not.

So when some people say that the OSR is just D&D, I just can't take them seriously.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;693200Meh. That's just marketing,

Exactly, but you seem to miss the point: It's a stand in for the D&D trademark that can't be used because the OGL prohibits that, and the multiple brands (OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, etc.) that confuse the issue with their multiplicity.
 

QuoteI mean, can anyone sit here with a straight face and say that Runequest (for example) isn't "old school"?

Plenty of people on "old school" forums have. Why? Because the fight between "schools" is a domestic D&D disturbance. There's no prominently identified and opposed "new school" agenda out to remake RQ into something else. On the other hand, such things as RQ being a "skill based system" are contra the reactionary TSR-fanboy program because they were inspirations for 3E.
 

QuoteOr Metamorphosis Alpha? No, definitely not.

Of course not: It's a spin-off of OD&D.

QuoteSo when some people say that the OSR is just D&D, I just can't take them seriously.

Oh, there's a sense in which it also includes something new happening with whatever old non-TSR game a segment of the TSR-centric Old School happens to like. That's a nod from the nobility, not an elevation to the peerage. It's mostly D&Ders (who may not ever have played the game in question) who assign the label, and D&Ders also among its fandom who claim it. It doesn't really mean much of anything without the context of the infighting among D&D fans, which in turn means squat to people who don't follow D&D politics.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;693176Um, no. What fucking "war"? The OSR was never solely about D&D editions/retroclones. Get over it. It always transcended D&D, and included games like Traveller, Runequest, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, etc.

That's what the label is, and that's what it means. Period. Words do mean things, you know.

Considering that I was one of the original adoptees of the term you are wrong and J Arcane is right. Take a chill pill, it is just a label.

But if you must do a Google search and find an instance of Old School Renaissance or OSR being used in reference or as a marketing too for vintage games other than D&D prior than two years ago.

To give you a head start here is a link to my blog post where I did just that.

http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/where-hell-old-school-renaissance-come.html

You will find that the use of the OSR term has been largely ignored by fans of Traveller, BRP and other vintage games because their communities either never had the break in continuity that classic D&D had or continued to have the support of a publisher. Despite the fact that all of them are certainly old school games.

What you are saying is simply not accurate. You reacting negatively not because J Arcane and myself are wrong in our observations but the situation is something you don't wish it to be.  Probably you feel offended that classic D&D gamers are supposedly claiming to be the only old school gamers.

Chances are you will also react negatively to my post ignoring the fact that what I am relaying is based on observations of people actually use the term as opposed to how I wish it to be used. Chances are you will also ignore the fact that OSR is a organic term that grew out of popular usage. Like all such terms it is sustained by whether it is useful. When it is ceases to be people will quit using it. Perhaps also it meaning will change.

Certainly during the time since I first starting using it to refer to my work (2009) it has broaden to include games and products that are not retro-clones and only based on classic D&D mechanics but with different genres or settings.

There is even one game that is based solely on D20 is consider by most as part of the OSR the DCC RPG. The reason for that while it is not based on classic D&D mechanics, they participate in the OSR community and actively solicit their opinions and comments. It is obvious that it is a different take of the wellspring that spawned D&D.  

In the end the OSR is defined by those who do. Play, promote or publish. If you want it changed it is enough to bay loudly and say it ought to be changed. Make your own product and label as part of the OSR.

Raiders of R'lyeh will in some ways be an attempt to port PARTS of the OSR-model to CoC.

Quote from: Tetsubo;692946I am attempting to understand why people like the OSR category of games.

I really think reasons vary considerably from person to person. I am not strictly an OSR player, but I include OSR among the many kinds of games I do like to play. For me it started when 4E came out, and i just realized the edition wasn't for me. But i had been anticipating a new edition of D&D and was kind if burned out on 3E. Because I still had a lot of my old 2E stuff, i decided, mainly just for kicks and partly as a joke, to run a 2E ravenloft campaign. I assumed, based on my memory, my reintroduction to AD&D would be one where we laughed at the way the game used to be built. To my surprise it was the best Ravenloft campaign, I had run in years (I hadn't run 2E since about 2001. Yes there were odd bits here and there in the system that were a product of the time it was made, but most of the stuff worked well enough in play and a lot of it worked better for my approach to Ravenloft than 3E ever did. So I think for me, it was the realization that the older system still had something to offer that I wasn't getting from either of the two most recent editions.

Around that sane time my business partner had been getting into OSR and showed me a game called Lamentations of the Flame Princess. What I found cool about it was the guy took old school D&D and basically fixed the things he didn't like about it, and brought a few mechanics current with d20. I thought that was cool because it meant you could use the ogl to take what you like about the current d20 system and blend it with elements of previous editions that you also liked.

Mind you i still like 3E quite a bit and d20 is my go to for certain campaigns. I can just also enjoy a game of 1E 2E or a retroclone.

If you are trying to appeal to a new gamer, i wouldn't over sell OSR, I would just explain to them what is, and offer it as an option among many (when my cousin expressed interest in D&D, she really wanted to try something classic, i showed her the 1E reprints and ran a couple of sessions. In the end, it didn't really speak to her, so we went with the new Doctor Who RPG. However her boyfriend was fascinated by the 1E books (particularly the art----they are both artists).

Quote from: estar;693250You will find that the use of the OSR term has been largely ignored by fans of Traveller, BRP and other vintage games because their communities either never had the break in continuity that classic D&D had or continued to have the support of a publisher. Despite the fact that all of them are certainly old school games.

One of the best comments from previous "define the OSR" threads was that a renaissance is a movement, and so the OSR need not be defined by its origins. But new members have to want to be part of that movement, yes?

So yeah, D&D old schoolers have invested heavily in the OSR brand, lovers of other vintage games have not -- and probably wouldn't want to by now. When someone says OSR to me it's hard to think of anything but D&D.

The way I see it, people never just stopped playing Traveller or BRP in numbers so high it needed a renaissance to bring it back.