TheRPGSite

What would you say to a new player to sell them on the idea of playing a OSR game?

There's lots of free OSR RPGs out there to try

The gameflow is really quick and as there's less rules they don't get in the way of gameplay.

East to learn how to play and run a game.

A huge amount of free supporting material out there.

Easy to play, and if they are familiar with other rpgs, simplicity of design allows one to enjoy the actual game instead of juggling numbers and builds.

And answered.

My personal experience is that new (or relatively new) gamers are easier to sell on old school games, since they usually lack the prejudices of the "veterans". Although I suppose the same would go for other game styles as well.

Hey, I would like to try out this new spaceman/fantasy/post-apoc/horror game. We can get started playing in minutes. Wanna play?

"Let's play D&D."

All the needed materials are free. You can learn to play in just a few minutes. Easy prep if you decide you want to DM. Great for pick up games as character creation is super quick. OSR play style tends to run toward exploration style games where player groups set their own goals, and who does not like being their own boss? Oh did we mention that every thing you could ever need is free?

All the needed materials are free. You can learn to play in just a few minutes. Easy prep if you decide you want to DM. Great for pick up games as character creation is super quick. OSR play style tends to run toward exploration style games where player groups set their own goals, and who does not like being their own boss? Your character will likely die a gruesome death at some point, but thats ok because it will likely make a bitchin story. Oh did we mention that every thing you could ever need is free?

"I'm running D&D, who wants to play?"

Really, a new person has Shit Fanny All idea what OSR means and doesn't care.  They have ONE concern:

"Did you make up some shit you thought would be fun?"

If it's fun, nothing else is going to matter.

If it's NOT fun, nothing else is going to matter.

Normally, I'd have you fetch me a beer at this point, but I haven't had breakfast yet, so fetch me two eggs over easy, hash browns, rye toast, 4 oz. steak done medium, 3 strips of bacon, a spicy sausage patty, and a pot of hot strong coffee.

"This is a lot easier, and would be better for us to get started."

Quote from: mcbobbo;691993"This is a lot easier, and would be better for us to get started."

Easier than what?  A newbie has no point of reference for this. :)

Quote from: Exploderwizard;692001Easier than what?  A newbie has no point of reference for this. :)

Fill in the game of choice: Pathfinder, Rolemaster, D&D 4E

Niche games are always harder because you have to convince people to try them out but the OSR has a pretty fast learning curve so it isn't a disaster if people decide they have other preferences after trying it out.

Quote from: Votan;692005Fill in the game of choice: Pathfinder, Rolemaster, D&D 4E

So someone who had already played these games would be a newbie how?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;692013So someone who had already played these games would be a newbie how?

I took the question as "how would Bob say X". And I am not a noob.

Further it works in other fields.  People can be attracted to Apple/iOS because it is easier without knowing anything about Android.

If they are a fan of Greek myths and/or movies like Clash & Wrath of the Titans, then send them this link:

MAZES & MINOTAURS
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm

If they are a fan of post-apoc & scifi video games, then send them this link:

MUTANT FUTURE
http://goblinoidgames.com/mutantfuture.html

I don't think just focusing on "quick and easy" really answers the question. There a lot of non OSR games, both new and old, that are just as quick and easy, possibly more so. The choice of an OSR style game implies a lot more, things we are perhaps taken for granted here.

In fact this assertion only really holds because so many of us are deeply familiar with D&D in one from or another it has become second nature. But from the outside, even in it's classic TSR incarnations, there is a lot of fiddly lore and exceptions to pick up. You have to learn that Clerics can wear armour and turn undead but can only use blunt weapons or that a gorgon isn't what you might think it is. And who the hell is Rod and why do I need to be saved from him?

So if you want to sell an OSR game to a newbie the challenge to describe experience and values of old style D&D, that is assuming I've got this week's definition of OSR right.

Agreed, Soylent Green, and sigged.

Quote from: Maltese Changeling;692029Agreed, Soylent Green, and sigged.

Thanks! I've not been "sigged" in a while. It's always nice when it happens.

Quote from: Soylent Green;692019I don't think just focusing on "quick and easy" really answers the question. There a lot of non OSR games, both new and old, that are just as quick and easy, possibly more so. The choice of an OSR style game implies a lot more, things we are perhaps taken for granted here.

The original question was "Sell a newb on OSR", which people answered based on that.
There may well be simpler and quicker systems out there, but overall, it would be hard to find one that has all the attributes laid out by people, especially the huge amount of free material out there.

Quote from: Soylent Green;692019In fact this assertion only really holds because so many of us are deeply familiar with D&D in one from or another it has become second nature. But from the outside, even in it's classic TSR incarnations, there is a lot of fiddly lore and exceptions to pick up. You have to learn that Clerics can wear armour and turn undead but can only use blunt weapons or that a gorgon isn't what you might think it is. And who the hell is Rod and why do I need to be saved from him?
So if you want to sell an OSR game to a newbie the challenge to describe experience and values of old style D&D, that is assuming I've got this week's definition of OSR right.

OSR doesn't necessarily mean DnD clerics with whatever exceptions rules that have and really the classes in OSR that are used by various games are normally pretty basic.
That's the advantage of OSR.
If you have a pure skill based system, it's easy to end up with a gimped character or you get bogged down in character gen.
Often with OSR games the character gen takes maybe 10 minutes to generate a character as its 90% done for you really.

I think generally you're focusing too much on DnD itself, OSR has a much wider meaning.
OSR means "Old School Renaissance" not necessarily DnD clone, but a lot of it will be similar enough to use the old DnD material.

I think OSR doesn't even necessarily mean DnD compatible at all, although for the purposes of this thread, that's what most of us are getting at.

"You don't have to learn any rules."

Quote from: Tetsubo;691933What would you say to a new player to sell them on the idea of playing a OSR game?

Especially if new player means someone who's new to the RPG scene, why would I want to try selling "the idea of playing an OSR game"? Makes a lot more sense to me actually to invite 'em to come play, than to explain some geeky internet subculture jargon.

I've got no stake in hoodwinking anyone into something they won't enjoy, so the question is why I think Friend X would get a kick out of playing a swordsman or sorceress, exploring fantastic realms, taking wondrous treasures from malevolent monsters, and so on. That depends on the person in question.

In some cases the clones/neo clones/inspired by games are easier to play and read than the originals, they are easier to get hold of instead of paying silly ebay prices and you can pretty much read one and you get the whole gist of D&D or whatever game they emulate, even though you aren't actually playing D&D or Runequest or whatever. (But you are, just not in name.)

Biggest sell is that most are free.

Quote from: TristramEvans;692092"You don't have to learn any rules."

Just so. I didn't learn any rules the first time I played.

Quote from: Tetsubo;691933What would you say to a new player to sell them on the idea of playing a OSR game?

If they're not hooked on new-school high-crunch games then I wouldn't say anything about OSR and how it differs from 3e/4e/Pathfinder et al. I think "Let's play D&D" followed by quick chargen and a not overly deadly starting adventure would work. I probably would do a few things to alleviate the extreme lethality of pre-AD&D; max hp at 1st level (unless it's a large group), death at -10 hp (better than death at 0 hp and easy Raise IMO), best 3 of 4d6 instead of 3d6 in order. I'd encourage them to play a Fighter type since Vancian casting is weird and unintuitive, or a Thief with heavy use of bonuses to the % checks.

Quote from: Phillip;692123Especially if new player means someone who's new to the RPG scene, why would I want to try selling "the idea of playing an OSR game"? Makes a lot more sense to me actually to invite 'em to come play, than to explain some geeky internet subculture jargon.

I've got no stake in hoodwinking anyone into something they won't enjoy, so the question is why I think Friend X would get a kick out of playing a swordsman or sorceress, exploring fantastic realms, taking wondrous treasures from malevolent monsters, and so on. That depends on the person in question.

The OSR has several games where you can attempt anything that your character can do using mechanics that are simple to play and to setup yet have enough detail for many sessions of play.

Unlike computer games or board games these OSR games, like all tabletop roleplaying games, feature the ability for the player to attempt anything that their character can do within the setting. With their actions adjudicated by a human referee who uses the player's input, the rules and his adventure notes to make his ruling.

Most RPGs released by the OSR community revolve around the fantasy genre. They feature mechanics that have been played and supported since the release of the first roleplaying game in the mid 70s.

Most fantasy OSR games defines characters in terms of six attributes, a class defining that character's profession, and their equipment both mundane and magical. Characters are quickly generated with many folks ready in 15 to 30 minutes.

For the novice referee the most straight forward setup is to draw a small town with a few shops. Then just outside of the town in a out of the way place place a dungeon. The dungeon consists of a maze with rooms. The rooms are either occupied by monsters, have traps, have treasures, something unusual, or any combination of the proceeding. It is recommended that you have a few empty rooms or long passageway to spread out the occupied areas.

A dungeon can be setup "realistically" with various rooms occupied logically by those who inhabit that area. It could be setup as funhouse where anything and everything can be found in the various rooms. Often justified as the work of a mad archmage or wizard. Or any combination between.

Dungeons are organized into levels where the deeper you go the more difficult the creatures, and traps are. But the treasure is also correspondingly more rewarding. Within each levels you can have areas of related inhabitants. You can also setup these areas as competing factions for the players to learn about and take advantage of.

The prime role of the players during the game is to act as if their character sare really there. To listen to your description, respond to your NPCs, and act accordingly. Some players will act out a different personae while other will essentially be "themselves". Either method or anything between will work the only requirement is to interact with the setting you created as if they are there.

The various fantasy games produced by OSR support this mode of play very well due to the legacy of the mechanics they inherited from the first roleplaying game ever made. However the dungeon is not the only type of adventure possible with these game. The mechanics are flexible enough to support just about any type of adventure you can imagine those character are capable of doing.

There is a wealth of supplements and adventures to draw on for when your time or imagination is in short supply. Also many of these products expand the type of possible characters and give further support to specific types of adventures.

Many of these products are free both in terms of cost and creativity. Much of the OSR is bluit on the ideals of open gaming where the only thing asked of folks using their materials is to in return share what they created under the same term. This is regardless whether the work is just for fun, non-commercial, or commercial.

Quote from: estar;692184[long declamation]

Yeah, that mouthful is just what I don't see any point in laying on some hapless innocent who might otherwise be interested in playing an adventure game.

"Wanna see what D&D was like before they fucked it up?"

Quote from: Tetsubo;691933What would you say to a new player to sell them on the idea of playing a OSR game?

Are we talking 1. new to tabletop RPGs (but not video game RPGs), 2. new to D&D, 3. new to Old School D&D, or 4. new to RPGs at all?

First: "Hey, you ever wondered where all this originated from?  Have I got the RPG for you!"

Second: "Hey, you interested in playing Dungeons & Dragons?  It's kind of like Shadowrun/Call of Cthulhu/etc, but set in a fantasy world of monsters and magic."

Third: "Hey, you ever wanted to see what it was like in the 70s and 80s?  Are you a bad enough dude to conquer the Tomb of Horrors, or the Temple of Elemental Evil?"

Fourth: "Imagine an interactive world where you are the main character.  You might be a mage, a thief, an elf, or something else in a Tolkienian fantasy world, full of ancient ruins and foreboding caverns full of danger and excitement!  You form a team of adventurers with some other players, and one player's the Dungeon Master, who creates the world before you all."

Quote from: Phillip;692279Yeah, that mouthful is just what I don't see any point in laying on some hapless innocent who might otherwise be interested in playing an adventure game.

It depends whether if they just going to play or get into running the game as well. If just a play of course a simpler explanation is warranted. But since both situations are being talked about then I gave a complete explanation of what all involved.

Quote from: JRR;692283"Wanna see what D&D was like before they fucked it up?"

That's exactly the kind of "get off my lawn" attitude I so enjoy about theRPGSite.

Some gamers would consider the mechanics of 1e/2e D&D "fucked up." But hey, that's alright, we all started out playing earlier versions of the game, and had some fun with them. Some of us were simply willing to acknowledge they weren't perfect, and could be improved upon. There's no reason a newbie shouldn't go through the same process, and give the "old school" a try so they know why 3E was necessary, and move on....

I have been using games like Labyrinth Lord or Swords & Wizardry Complete to teach the basics for entry level gamer's, that want a taste for D&D but have never played a fantasy game RPG before before I move them up the ladder to something with more KICK (teeth-meaning complexity), if they ask for it.  I've used games like Mystery Men, MARVEL (TSR), BESM 2E or Thousand Suns for those who want to play something non-fantasy related and never played a rpg before.

Quote from: Tetsubo;691933What would you say to a new player to sell them on the idea of playing a OSR game?

Are you trolling us?

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;692313There's no reason a newbie shouldn't go through the same process, and give the "old school" a try so they know why 3E was necessary, and move on....

:rotfl:

Yet another option hardly qualifies as necessary.

3E is never necessary

Quote from: estar;692184The OSR has several games where you can attempt anything that your character can do using mechanics that are simple to play and to setup yet have enough detail for many sessions of play.

Unlike computer games or board games these OSR games, like all tabletop roleplaying games, feature the ability for the player to attempt anything that their character can do within the setting. With their actions adjudicated by a human referee who uses the player's input, the rules and his adventure notes to make his ruling.

Most RPGs released by the OSR community revolve around the fantasy genre. They feature mechanics that have been played and supported since the release of the first roleplaying game in the mid 70s.

Most fantasy OSR games defines characters in terms of six attributes, a class defining that character's profession, and their equipment both mundane and magical. Characters are quickly generated with many folks ready in 15 to 30 minutes.

For the novice referee the most straight forward setup is to draw a small town with a few shops. Then just outside of the town in a out of the way place place a dungeon. The dungeon consists of a maze with rooms. The rooms are either occupied by monsters, have traps, have treasures, something unusual, or any combination of the proceeding. It is recommended that you have a few empty rooms or long passageway to spread out the occupied areas.

A dungeon can be setup "realistically" with various rooms occupied logically by those who inhabit that area. It could be setup as funhouse where anything and everything can be found in the various rooms. Often justified as the work of a mad archmage or wizard. Or any combination between.

Dungeons are organized into levels where the deeper you go the more difficult the creatures, and traps are. But the treasure is also correspondingly more rewarding. Within each levels you can have areas of related inhabitants. You can also setup these areas as competing factions for the players to learn about and take advantage of.

The prime role of the players during the game is to act as if their character sare really there. To listen to your description, respond to your NPCs, and act accordingly. Some players will act out a different personae while other will essentially be "themselves". Either method or anything between will work the only requirement is to interact with the setting you created as if they are there.

The various fantasy games produced by OSR support this mode of play very well due to the legacy of the mechanics they inherited from the first roleplaying game ever made. However the dungeon is not the only type of adventure possible with these game. The mechanics are flexible enough to support just about any type of adventure you can imagine those character are capable of doing.

There is a wealth of supplements and adventures to draw on for when your time or imagination is in short supply. Also many of these products expand the type of possible characters and give further support to specific types of adventures.

Many of these products are free both in terms of cost and creativity. Much of the OSR is bluit on the ideals of open gaming where the only thing asked of folks using their materials is to in return share what they created under the same term. This is regardless whether the work is just for fun, non-commercial, or commercial.

So what you're saying is the OSR is all D&D all the time?

That has pretty much guaranteed I'll never play an OSR game.

Quote from: The Traveller;692420So what you're saying is the OSR is all D&D all the time?

That has pretty much guaranteed I'll never play an OSR game.

Only a certain group thinks that way. Overall, the osr includes many games and systems. People will argue semantics, but its all part of the same movement.

Personally I miss when it was just a movement, and nobody sat around talking about it. Our culture has become too self-referential.

The D&D-centrism comes from that being the game with a fandom that was identifying a prominent internal "New School" to react against.

Quote from: The Traveller;692420So what you're saying is the OSR is all D&D all the time?

That has pretty much guaranteed I'll never play an OSR game.

I have kind of been convinced that Vampire: the Masquerade is an OSR game so I might not be a good opinion to poll.

Quote from: Tetsubo;691933What would you say to a new player to sell them on the idea of playing a OSR game?

I'd tell them to roll 3d6 and assign them in order to their character's six primary stats.

Seriously, you can blather on for hours about stuff, or you can just have them play. I find that those who've been through D&D4e and stacks of computer games don't get it, however much you explain or play.

Those who've never done anything related before get it straight away.

Quote from: The Traveller;692420So what you're saying is the OSR is all D&D all the time?

That has pretty much guaranteed I'll never play an OSR game.

Yes the OSR (all caps) is a group of people publishing, playing, or promoting classic editions of D&D or games with similar mechanics (but not always the same genres i.e. Star with Numbers, etc)

The osr (all small letters) is about older games or newer games adopting older designs and/or styles.

So if you don't like classic D&D mechanics then the OSR (all caps) is not likely to interest you. However be aware OSR is not a monolithic block of gamers delving dungeons and hack-n-slash campaigns. There is a huge variety of material to be found. Myself my stuff revolves around the adventure to be found in the clash of politics, religions, and cultures.  Other have their own take.

As far as my post goes that what I would recommend to a absolute novice who want to run classic D&D for the first time. Making a dungeon maze is the most straight forward adventure format there is and most of the original and retro-clone rule books have a tone of advice and material for how to set them up.

The OSR started out as D&D clones, obviously with the OGL opening the floodgates, but aren't there clones now for Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls (Tunnelquest) and other games? Heck there's even one for Golden Heroes thanks to the prolific Black the Blackball (he of Dark Dungeons fame, perhaps the most epic undertaking of the OSR movement, though OSRIC could argue that too).

It all adds up to more choice, and that is good in some ways, not so in others ("are we playing Basic Fantasy tonight? No, lets play Dark Dungeons. What about Labyrinth Lord? Actually I fancy OSRIC tonight. Hey here's an idea, why don't we play AD&D? *silence* Which version? Isn't there a 2e clone now? How about White Box? That's not AD&D it's OD&D..." Cue arguments.)

For the most part I applaud the efforts of writers but have only played Labyrinth Lord in the last few years. If I were to gather a dedicated online group for a PBEM I would push Dark Dungeons. 1-36 and beyond. Job done.

Quote from: estar;692758Yes the OSR (all caps) is a group of people publishing, playing, or promoting classic editions of D&D or games with similar mechanics (but not always the same genres i.e. Star with Numbers, etc)

The osr (all small letters) is about older games or newer games adopting older designs and/or styles.

I see you pushing that definition/differentiation but I don't think it's really on the radar of most folks and capitalization seems a weak landmark to declare which road you're on.
Not that 'OSR' has any meaning at all to most of the guys I play with... none of whom seem to ever visit gaming forums.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;692683I'd tell them to roll 3d6 and assign them in order to their character's six primary stats.

Seriously, you can blather on for hours about stuff, or you can just have them play. I find that those who've been through D&D4e and stacks of computer games don't get it, however much you explain or play.

Those who've never done anything related before get it straight away.

I have run into this too. Those with no table top gaming experience seem to get OD&D and its relations very quickly. I also find that they dont get fucked up about class roles, they just try whatever they think makes sense.

Quote from: flyingcircus;692319Are you trolling us?

I am attempting to understand why people like the OSR category of games.

Quote from: Tetsubo;692946I am attempting to understand why people like the OSR category of games.

Then ask that.

I would never try to sell a random faceless hypothetical newbie on any game without knowing them.

I think, for many of your dumber gamers, the untested assumption that their game is somehow better for "most people" or "new gamers" or "as-yet untapped demographics" is just sort of a fall-back position they adopt when they realize "My game is objectively the best" won't fly on the internet.

I would no more try to sell someone on a game than sell them on a shoe size.

Quote from: Tetsubo;692946I am attempting to understand why people like the OSR category of games.

Quote from: Zak S;692951Then ask that.

For a start, consider the actual substantive differences that people who prefer a "new school" of D&D (or other example of doing things in conscious contrast to old D&D) offer as examples of why they don't like "old school" games.

Simple, high-level explanation: Different people like different things. Some people enjoy the kind of experience that an older model of game provides, while some do not, and likewise with newer models.

Digging deeper gets increasingly complex, as human beings are interweavings of countless formative phenomena.

Quote from: Simlasa;692928I see you pushing that definition/differentiation but I don't think it's really on the radar of most folks and capitalization seems a weak landmark to declare which road you're on.
Not that 'OSR' has any meaning at all to most of the guys I play with... none of whom seem to ever visit gaming forums.

Regardless of the label there is a large group of gamers playing, publishing, or promoting classic editions of D&D or rules that are very similar. It is a very real distinction that a lot of people, including myself, had some success with both in terms of publishing for profit and number of downloads.

My personal estimate is that the group as a whole is about as large as the audience and well known as a third tier publisher. Savage Worlds, Fate, BRP, GURPS, etc. That it is dwarfed by Pathfinder and D&D 4e.

So yes you are correct in saying that the term OSR is not on the radar of most folks. But same can be said of the above systems. But it is a known term used by many.

Quote from: estar;693012So yes you are correct in saying that the term OSR is not on the radar of most folks. But same can be said of the above systems. But it is a known term used by many.

I wasn't referring to 'OSR' I was referring to the distinction between 'OSR' and 'osr'... in regards to the capitalization. Yeah, a LOT of folks have no clue what any version of OSR means... the the number who pay notice to that capitalization scheme is a minute subset of those.

Quote from: Simlasa;693027I wasn't referring to 'OSR' I was referring to the distinction between 'OSR' and 'osr'... in regards to the capitalization. Yeah, a LOT of folks have no clue what any version of OSR means... the the number who pay notice to that capitalization scheme is a minute subset of those.

My opinion is that most gamers that are aware of the osr regardless of capitalization knows that it refers to classic D&D editions. Because that how it was presented in various articles found on Wizards, Escapist, Penny Arcade, and it appears as a D&D subcategory on RPGNow.

I tend to come down on the oSr side of things, and thus would attempt to explain to the newbies why I will have nothing to do with the osR fucktards.

I mean, I would if I had any human contact unmediated by my computer.

Quote from: Simlasa;692928I see you pushing that definition/differentiation but I don't think it's really on the radar of most folks and capitalization seems a weak landmark to declare which road you're on.

Yup.

I say this from the bottom of my heart as someone who is both an OSR publisher and also someone who really does wish it'd gone the other way, but it's time to give it a rest already.

OSR means D&D editions/retroclones. It just does. The war is over.

I'm sorry it didn't evolve to be broader, but that's just the way the culture played out and there's not a damn thing you or I can do about it now.

Raging about it on the one hand, or inventing backwards definitions for things to try and placate the raging on the other, doesn't help anything.

Stormbringer had the right idea: vintage games for everything else. OSR is D&D now, and it ain't gonna change no matter how much anyone wants it to be otherwise, and crucially, there isn't anything wrong with that.

It's just a label, one that's only as useful as how descriptive it is, and it's plenty descriptive of the thing it's come to be about. There really isn't any confusion on what 'OSR' means to anyone but people with a vested interest in clouding that definition.

Quote from: J Arcane;693115Yup.

I say this from the bottom of my heart as someone who is both an OSR publisher and also someone who really does wish it'd gone the other way, but it's time to give it a rest already.

OSR means D&D editions/retroclones. It just does. The war is over.

I'm sorry it didn't evolve to be broader, but that's just the way the culture played out and there's not a damn thing you or I can do about it now.

Raging about it on the one hand, or inventing backwards definitions for things to try and placate the raging on the other, doesn't help anything.

Stormbringer had the right idea: vintage games for everything else. OSR is D&D now, and it ain't gonna change no matter how much anyone wants it to be otherwise, and crucially, there isn't anything wrong with that.

It's just a label, one that's only as useful as how descriptive it is, and it's plenty descriptive of the thing it's come to be about. There really isn't any confusion on what 'OSR' means to anyone but people with a vested interest in clouding that definition.

Um, no. What fucking "war"? The OSR was never solely about D&D editions/retroclones. Get over it. It always transcended D&D, and included games like Traveller, Runequest, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, etc.

That's what the label is, and that's what it means. Period. Words do mean things, you know.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;693176Um, no. What fucking "war"? The OSR was never solely about D&D editions/retroclones. Get over it. It always transcended D&D, and included games like Traveller, Runequest, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, etc.

That's what the label is, and that's what it means. Period. Words do mean things, you know.

Is there a single published product with an OSR label on it that isn't a D&D-based product?

The originators of the OSR and the people who publish and blog under that name, really meant a old-school D&D Revival.

There's tons of people who want OSR to mean something else, and I'm one of them, but I don't see Loz and Pete mentioning OSR in relation to any RQ6 products, or Mongoose with Traveller, etc...

OSR from a publishing standpoint, still means "compatible with Original through OGL D&D".

Quote from: CRKrueger;693180Is there a single published product with an OSR label on it that isn't a D&D-based product?

The originators of the OSR and the people who publish and blog under that name, really meant a old-school D&D Revival.

There's tons of people who want OSR to mean something else, and I'm one of them, but I don't see Loz and Pete mentioning OSR in relation to any RQ6 products, or Mongoose with Traveller, etc...

OSR from a publishing standpoint, still means "compatible with Original through OGL D&D".

Meh. That's just marketing, and there are many people who don't see it that way....myself among them. Words do have an actual meaning, and we shouldn't let people just co-opt language for their own questionable purposes. I mean, can anyone sit here with a straight face and say that Runequest (for example) isn't "old school"? Or Metamorphosis Alpha? No, definitely not.

So when some people say that the OSR is just D&D, I just can't take them seriously.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;693200Meh. That's just marketing,

Exactly, but you seem to miss the point: It's a stand in for the D&D trademark that can't be used because the OGL prohibits that, and the multiple brands (OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, etc.) that confuse the issue with their multiplicity.
 

QuoteI mean, can anyone sit here with a straight face and say that Runequest (for example) isn't "old school"?

Plenty of people on "old school" forums have. Why? Because the fight between "schools" is a domestic D&D disturbance. There's no prominently identified and opposed "new school" agenda out to remake RQ into something else. On the other hand, such things as RQ being a "skill based system" are contra the reactionary TSR-fanboy program because they were inspirations for 3E.
 

QuoteOr Metamorphosis Alpha? No, definitely not.

Of course not: It's a spin-off of OD&D.

QuoteSo when some people say that the OSR is just D&D, I just can't take them seriously.

Oh, there's a sense in which it also includes something new happening with whatever old non-TSR game a segment of the TSR-centric Old School happens to like. That's a nod from the nobility, not an elevation to the peerage. It's mostly D&Ders (who may not ever have played the game in question) who assign the label, and D&Ders also among its fandom who claim it. It doesn't really mean much of anything without the context of the infighting among D&D fans, which in turn means squat to people who don't follow D&D politics.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;693176Um, no. What fucking "war"? The OSR was never solely about D&D editions/retroclones. Get over it. It always transcended D&D, and included games like Traveller, Runequest, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, etc.

That's what the label is, and that's what it means. Period. Words do mean things, you know.

Considering that I was one of the original adoptees of the term you are wrong and J Arcane is right. Take a chill pill, it is just a label.

But if you must do a Google search and find an instance of Old School Renaissance or OSR being used in reference or as a marketing too for vintage games other than D&D prior than two years ago.

To give you a head start here is a link to my blog post where I did just that.

http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/where-hell-old-school-renaissance-come.html

You will find that the use of the OSR term has been largely ignored by fans of Traveller, BRP and other vintage games because their communities either never had the break in continuity that classic D&D had or continued to have the support of a publisher. Despite the fact that all of them are certainly old school games.

What you are saying is simply not accurate. You reacting negatively not because J Arcane and myself are wrong in our observations but the situation is something you don't wish it to be.  Probably you feel offended that classic D&D gamers are supposedly claiming to be the only old school gamers.

Chances are you will also react negatively to my post ignoring the fact that what I am relaying is based on observations of people actually use the term as opposed to how I wish it to be used. Chances are you will also ignore the fact that OSR is a organic term that grew out of popular usage. Like all such terms it is sustained by whether it is useful. When it is ceases to be people will quit using it. Perhaps also it meaning will change.

Certainly during the time since I first starting using it to refer to my work (2009) it has broaden to include games and products that are not retro-clones and only based on classic D&D mechanics but with different genres or settings.

There is even one game that is based solely on D20 is consider by most as part of the OSR the DCC RPG. The reason for that while it is not based on classic D&D mechanics, they participate in the OSR community and actively solicit their opinions and comments. It is obvious that it is a different take of the wellspring that spawned D&D.  

In the end the OSR is defined by those who do. Play, promote or publish. If you want it changed it is enough to bay loudly and say it ought to be changed. Make your own product and label as part of the OSR.

Raiders of R'lyeh will in some ways be an attempt to port PARTS of the OSR-model to CoC.

Quote from: Tetsubo;692946I am attempting to understand why people like the OSR category of games.

I really think reasons vary considerably from person to person. I am not strictly an OSR player, but I include OSR among the many kinds of games I do like to play. For me it started when 4E came out, and i just realized the edition wasn't for me. But i had been anticipating a new edition of D&D and was kind if burned out on 3E. Because I still had a lot of my old 2E stuff, i decided, mainly just for kicks and partly as a joke, to run a 2E ravenloft campaign. I assumed, based on my memory, my reintroduction to AD&D would be one where we laughed at the way the game used to be built. To my surprise it was the best Ravenloft campaign, I had run in years (I hadn't run 2E since about 2001. Yes there were odd bits here and there in the system that were a product of the time it was made, but most of the stuff worked well enough in play and a lot of it worked better for my approach to Ravenloft than 3E ever did. So I think for me, it was the realization that the older system still had something to offer that I wasn't getting from either of the two most recent editions.

Around that sane time my business partner had been getting into OSR and showed me a game called Lamentations of the Flame Princess. What I found cool about it was the guy took old school D&D and basically fixed the things he didn't like about it, and brought a few mechanics current with d20. I thought that was cool because it meant you could use the ogl to take what you like about the current d20 system and blend it with elements of previous editions that you also liked.

Mind you i still like 3E quite a bit and d20 is my go to for certain campaigns. I can just also enjoy a game of 1E 2E or a retroclone.

If you are trying to appeal to a new gamer, i wouldn't over sell OSR, I would just explain to them what is, and offer it as an option among many (when my cousin expressed interest in D&D, she really wanted to try something classic, i showed her the 1E reprints and ran a couple of sessions. In the end, it didn't really speak to her, so we went with the new Doctor Who RPG. However her boyfriend was fascinated by the 1E books (particularly the art----they are both artists).

Quote from: estar;693250You will find that the use of the OSR term has been largely ignored by fans of Traveller, BRP and other vintage games because their communities either never had the break in continuity that classic D&D had or continued to have the support of a publisher. Despite the fact that all of them are certainly old school games.

One of the best comments from previous "define the OSR" threads was that a renaissance is a movement, and so the OSR need not be defined by its origins. But new members have to want to be part of that movement, yes?

So yeah, D&D old schoolers have invested heavily in the OSR brand, lovers of other vintage games have not -- and probably wouldn't want to by now. When someone says OSR to me it's hard to think of anything but D&D.

The way I see it, people never just stopped playing Traveller or BRP in numbers so high it needed a renaissance to bring it back.

An unfortunate number of "new school" partisans turn the question of why people like old D&D (and similar games) into a rhetorical one. They seem to think that there are right and wrong answers in entertainment just as in mathematics.

In practice, I see a lot of cross pollination and mixing of different schools of thought on particular points.

Quote from: Rincewind1;694249The way I see it, people never just stopped playing Traveller or BRP in numbers so high it needed a renaissance to bring it back.

(http://media.tumblr.com/67d8eb77a2623ab1744c019640ead3df/tumblr_inline_mra2e5RMZS1qz4rgp.gif)

OSR= what OSRIC and C&C started.  The two have a contentious and murky past relationship that I am not fully aware of, but that was the seed.    Apparently C&C was to be a full retroclone of 1e, but the Trolls were afraid of Wotc legal (this was untested waters at the time), so the Texas and British chaps told them to brass off and made their own "publishing system."  Gygax was even directly involved in all of this at some level as he was on the Troll payroll.  I'd actually like to know how all this really went down.  It seems much of the bile has subsided over the years.  

One could even argue that HM 4e (with actual AD&D Gygax text) was the real instigator.  A mostly unbroken line could be drawn from WI D&D, Seattle D&D (late 2e/Basic), HM 4e, C&C/OSRIC, to the OSR, and now back to Seattle D&D (with the reprints and pdfs back online).  

Also, notice the first few letters in OSRIC...

Quote from: Teazia;694505OSR= what OSRIC and C&C started.  The two have a contentious and murky past relationship that I am not fully aware of, but that was the seed.    Apparently C&C was to be a full retroclone of 1e, but the Trolls were afraid of Wotc legal (this was untested waters at the time), so the Texas and British chaps told them to brass off and made their own "publishing system."  Gygax was even directly involved in all of this at some level as he was on the Troll payroll.  I'd actually like to know how all this really went down.  It seems much of the bile has subsided over the years.  

One could even argue that HM 4e (with actual AD&D Gygax text) was the real instigator.  A mostly unbroken line could be drawn from WI D&D, Seattle D&D (late 2e/Basic), HM 4e, C&C/OSRIC, to the OSR, and now back to Seattle D&D (with the reprints and pdfs back online).  

Also, notice the first few letters in OSRIC...

The OSRIC and C&C camps had a bitter online feud that lasted for years. And yeah, the open raging bile between them is definitely less now than it once was...

A newbie isn't going to know what OSR even means.  They don't even have to know about it.  It doesn't matter.

"I got this cool role-playing game.  You want to play it some time?"

It helps if the newbie is at least interested in adventuring games.  Or reads/watches adventure movies.  Not so much action.  Because that is what FPS gamers are more into.  TBS gamers won't be interested.  Wargamers might be interested, but then you'd be playing a wargame with an RPG which kinda sucks.

So... adventure, make your own character, create a destiny, blah blah.

Quote from: Phillip;692136Just so. I didn't learn any rules the first time I played.

The first role-play session I was in, I didn't know any rules.  The DM was doing open world, and told me what die to roll after I told him what my character was doing.  I had no idea what numbers I was supposed to be "hoping" for because the DM never said, "You need to roll an 11 or higher".  That was never said by the DM.  I was just told what die(s) to roll.  The story/adventure was worth more than any numbers rolled.

Later on I read some rules for the game to see how the system worked.  It immediately went on a computer to game in.