Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 10, 2021, 08:27:02 PM
The chart Chris pasted is bit meh - as it divides certain groups IMHO unnecessary and counterintuitevly.

I didn't put it together; it was part of some WotC power point presentation.

That said, when you actually look at those numbers you begin to understand some of the decisions WotC made with 4E. They got grief for it at the time, but the fact is the Gnome and Half-Orc just aren't THAT popular which is why they were initially one of the optional races in the back of the MM (so saying they weren't in the initial release is just false) and got a full write-up in the always planned PHB2 nine months later. Admittedly halflings aren't that popular overall either, but they're more popular than gnomes and they needed a small race for the first book.

It bit them because the gnome player, though small, was quite vocal... but if you look at those percentages, the the 4E PHB1 races account for just over 75% of all the PCs on that list.

Also, looking at that list really does drive home that even though they're options and highly touted by freaks on Twitter, pretending monstrous snowflake races are taking over D&D is just plain hyperbole. The default D&D races account for about 65% of all PCs with Tieflings and Dragonborn accounting for 15% of the rest... so all the other stuff is just 20% and when you cut out Aasimar (i.e. humans with celestial ancestry), Genasi (humans with elemental ancestry), Changelings (who spend most of their time looking like the common races) and Goliaths (depends on the setting, but in at least one they're humans with giant ancestry) you're down to just 4% that aren't a demi-human, part human or a dragonborn.

Gnomes were often forgotten even in TSR days/

Dark Sun - No gnomes
Birthright - No gnomes
Dragonlance - Gnomes replaced by annoying comic parody gnomes.
Basic D&D - No gnomes


Honestly I forget that they ever exist until once every 10 years or so someone says "Hey, maybe I'll play a gnome.  What are gnomes like in this setting?" 

And I go "Um, aah, right Gnomes.  Those guys yeah.  They're um.."

I'll note from that poll that only 22% of characters are human.

When you put that against the fact that in every published D&D setting most of the kingdoms are human, most of the politics are human and most of the cultures are dominated by humans you do end up with the situation in which most of the PCs are outsiders of some sort.  In addition almost all of what I would think of as source material for D&D games is predominantly humanocentric.

Is that a problem?  Not necessarily.  But it's a reason why you might want to greatly restrict these races.  And if people whinge if I say there are no Tieflings they can fuck off.

But really the bigger issue to me is the constant raising of the stakes.  If the PCs are things like half-demon vampires who make pacts with Great Old ones what weirdness are they going to discover out there in the world that's greater and more wondrous than what they see in the mirror every day?*  And of course once you've got characters like that the human Ice Barbarian who was exiled from his tribe for kinslaying and left to see the world, just seems a little dull by comparison.

*GM: You see a strange abomination floating towards you.  It has no visible means of locomotion and yet it moves, it's spherical in shape with razor sharp teeth and eyes that stick out in all directions and stare balefully at you as it approaches. This is something that clearly should not be able to exist...and yet it does!
Player: Oh it looks just like Aunt Jemima.  I ask it if it knows her.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 10, 2021, 07:37:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 10, 2021, 06:59:32 PM
It looks like Dragonborn and Tieflings are the fifth and sixth most popular races in 5e, beating out Halflings, Half Orcs and Gnomes

That's actually old data from the D&D Beyond beta (the top four in order being Human, Half-Elf, Elf and Dwarf).

The 2020 data from D&D Beyond indicates that Dragonborn and Tieflings are now 3 and 4 respectively; bumping off the elves and the dwarves. Humans and half-elves still remain #1 and 2 by a wide margin however. (ETA: this is different than the chart below, which was from 2019... so the numbers aren't a static ratio by any means).

Half-orcs also made a comeback, climbing to #5 and also beating out elves and dwarves now.

So, by the numbers, humans and half-humans (-elves, -orcs, and -devils) are four of the top five races with "Proud Warrior Race" dragon guy rounding them out, but still falling well behind humans and half-elves.

So much for the theory that weird monster snowflakes were taking over D&D these days. The only thing they're taking over are snowflake Twitter feeds, which we already know are not a representative sample of the population.

ETA: Here's a jpg from a D&D Beyond presentation someone put up at enworld.

Where are the Thri-Kreen? Fucking racists!

Quote from: Shasarak on February 10, 2021, 03:21:50 PM

My guess is that she-who-must-not-be-named liked money more then she hated "bad" publicity because by the time 2.5e rolled around they had no problem building monster PC races directly into the core rules.

But I guess we can not talk about 2.5e because that would destroy your narrative about how it was 3e, years later, that was the font of problem monster PC races.

Your one weakness, people that can remember.

Your one weakness seems to be your inability to remember my posted reply to you back on page 6 in this thread:

"You are right "started" is the wrong word. Cultural Shifts don't come out of nowhere.

"Codified" with 3e fits the situation better.

There was always a subset of players who wanted to play some special non-core thing. And supplemental material was made to cater to them. In 1e and 2e." ...

Quote from: Shasarak on February 09, 2021, 10:38:32 PM
It looks like Dragonborn and Tieflings are the fifth and sixth most popular races in 5e, beating out Halflings, Half Orcs and Gnomes

Here are the official top 10 races as created by players on DnD beyond:

Human
Elf
Half-Elf
Dwarf
Dragonborn
Tiefling
Genasi
Halfling
Half-Orc
Gnome
Goliath
Aarakocra
Aasimar

Thank you for providing this list showing that over half of the top 10 13 PC races are monster races.

And if I may point out; that the two races that no gamer really heard of: the Dragonborn and Tiefling, are now "officially" more popular than the old standbys; Halfling, Half-Orc, and Gnome.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 10, 2021, 11:05:00 PM
Also, looking at that list really does drive home that even though they're options and highly touted by freaks on Twitter, pretending monstrous snowflake races are taking over D&D is just plain hyperbole. ...

True, claiming that the snowflake races are taking over D&D is premature.

But all the Hyperbole does have a point.

They are very vocal, and the squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say. And the current powers that be at WOTC do seem to be listening...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 11, 2021, 01:22:22 AM
Where are the Thri-Kreen? Fucking racists!

I'm very concerned about the problematic lack of Kender representation myself.

So non-inclusive.

#KenderLivesMatter

QuoteHonestly I forget that they ever exist until once every 10 years or so someone says "Hey, maybe I'll play a gnome.  What are gnomes like in this setting?"

And I go "Um, aah, right Gnomes.  Those guys yeah.  They're um.."

Yeah. I have to say despite all beefs, at least Pathfinder managed to make gnomes somehow own race.

QuoteWhen you put that against the fact that in every published D&D setting most of the kingdoms are human, most of the politics are human and most of the cultures are dominated by humans you do end up with the situation in which most of the PCs are outsiders of some sort.  In addition almost all of what I would think of as source material for D&D games is predominantly humanocentric.

I think players as outsiders is common situation even in human-only settings and games tbh

QuoteBut really the bigger issue to me is the constant raising of the stakes.  If the PCs are things like half-demon vampires who make pacts with Great Old ones what weirdness are they going to discover out there in the world that's greater and more wondrous than what they see in the mirror every day?*  And of course once you've got characters like that the human Ice Barbarian who was exiled from his tribe for kinslaying and left to see the world, just seems a little dull by comparison.

Well but now D&D is medieval superheroes genre, and most of fantasy tropes are so re-used and known it's hard to take anything from Monster Manual and MAKE IT GREATER AND WONDROUS.
Great red wyrms? Beholders? Demogorgons? All were our pals for decades.

It's like Cthulhu mythos - it was scary during cultural zeitgeist, but now CoC is occult criminal game, not existential horror really, because we all see Great Old Ones chewed and digested by popculture. I'm not scared by them at all.

Quote

*GM: You see a strange abomination floating towards you.  It has no visible means of locomotion and yet it moves, it's spherical in shape with razor sharp teeth and eyes that stick out in all directions and stare balefully at you as it approaches. This is something that clearly should not be able to exist...and yet it does!
Player: Oh it looks just like Aunt Jemima.  I ask it if it knows her.

oh, look it's beholder, I've read about it thousand of times and is iconic enemy that was on cover of Monster Manual, guess I'll have to divide my knowledge from Bilbo Baggins knowledge... ah yat immersion?

QuoteAnd if I may point out; that the two races that no gamer really heard of: the Dragonborn and Tiefling, are now "officially" more popular than the old standbys; Halfling, Half-Orc, and Gnome.

Well that's why you make new things to get attention of players/consumers tired of old shit.
Guess it works.

I would like to note that tieflings' first big splash was in Planescape back in 2E. So I can kinda see how they'd eventually become a core race.

Ironically, PF had a pretty good take on how life could be complicated for aasimar, with dimwitted commoners and peasants believing superstitions about how aasimar hair cures dysentery or something (no, seriously, there was fluff about that -- suddenly being the special snowflake seems a lot less fun, eh?).

This is, unfortunately, not without real world precedent either. Read up about what happens to the rare person with albinism in Africa. Try not to drink afterwards.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 11, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
I would like to note that tieflings' first big splash was in Planescape back in 2E. So I can kinda see how they'd eventually become a core race.

Ironically, PF had a pretty good take on how life could be complicated for aasimar, with dimwitted commoners and peasants believing superstitions about how aasimar hair cures dysentery or something (no, seriously, there was fluff about that -- suddenly being the special snowflake seems a lot less fun, eh?).

This is, unfortunately, not without real world precedent either. Read up about what happens to the rare person with albinism in Africa. Try not to drink afterwards.

That's one of the reasons I always frowned upon the more exotic races as PCs in my games. It would give the group all kinds of trouble, and then I'd have a player whining about how the game is unfair, and then it's one less player on the table.

But yes, a half-ogre on the party? No inn or city will allow them, because "everyone knows those monsters eat people".

A lizard-man or saurian on the party? "Well, everyone knows that according to Zaubar's ancient medical texts a lizard-man's eye / tail / little finger / penis dryed and powdered is the perfect medicine for the gout.

A drow on the party? Crossbow bolt on the chest as soon as the PC is seen. Kill it first, ask questions later.

A tiefling? "Hellspawn, you'll be hanged, quartered and drawn!!"

And so on.

I used something like this to annoy one of my players who had a gnome mage once: the party visited a far kingdom where people believed gnomes were naturally lucky and rubbing one's head would give you luck for the entire day. LOL. After two days of this, the character snapped in a tavern: "I'll kick the crap out of the next son of a whore that rubs my head"! 

Quote from: Shasarak on February 10, 2021, 06:59:32 PM
My guess is that she-who-must-not-be-named liked money more then she hated "bad" publicity because by the time 2.5e rolled around they had no problem building monster PC races directly into the core rules.

There was no 2.5e. There never was. S&P is not 2.5e.

Quote from: TJS on February 10, 2021, 11:50:26 PM
Gnomes were often forgotten even in TSR days/

Dark Sun - No gnomes
Birthright - No gnomes
Dragonlance - Gnomes replaced by annoying comic parody gnomes.
Basic D&D - No gnomes


Honestly I forget that they ever exist until once every 10 years or so someone says "Hey, maybe I'll play a gnome.  What are gnomes like in this setting?" 

And I go "Um, aah, right Gnomes.  Those guys yeah.  They're um.."

In Neverwinter Online all the gnomes of Faerun were cursed into redcaps.

BX/BECMI re-introduced gnomes as a PC with the Top Ballista setting book. Weird Gnomes done right.

Quote from: Greywolf76 on February 11, 2021, 09:52:54 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 11, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
I would like to note that tieflings' first big splash was in Planescape back in 2E. So I can kinda see how they'd eventually become a core race.

Ironically, PF had a pretty good take on how life could be complicated for aasimar, with dimwitted commoners and peasants believing superstitions about how aasimar hair cures dysentery or something (no, seriously, there was fluff about that -- suddenly being the special snowflake seems a lot less fun, eh?).

This is, unfortunately, not without real world precedent either. Read up about what happens to the rare person with albinism in Africa. Try not to drink afterwards.

That's one of the reasons I always frowned upon the more exotic races as PCs in my games. It would give the group all kinds of trouble, and then I'd have a player whining about how the game is unfair, and then it's one less player on the table.

But yes, a half-ogre on the party? No inn or city will allow them, because "everyone knows those monsters eat people".

A lizard-man or saurian on the party? "Well, everyone knows that according to Zaubar's ancient medical texts a lizard-man's eye / tail / little finger / penis dryed and powdered is the perfect medicine for the gout.

A drow on the party? Crossbow bolt on the chest as soon as the PC is seen. Kill it first, ask questions later.

A tiefling? "Hellspawn, you'll be hanged, quartered and drawn!!"

And so on.

I used something like this to annoy one of my players who had a gnome mage once: the party visited a far kingdom where people believed gnomes were naturally lucky and rubbing one's head would give you luck for the entire day. LOL. After two days of this, the character snapped in a tavern: "I'll kick the crap out of the next son of a whore that rubs my head"! 

I'm thinking about tossing a little of that into my current 5E game. Have someone follow one of the exotic PCs around asking for a lock of their hair. Just to see the reactions.

Lets take a trip down memory lane for all of those here who have ever so conveniently forgotten.

OA introduces 3 new races. A new sub race of dwarf, Hengyokai subdivided into 12 different types, and the Spirit Folk who are subdivided into 3 different types.

Vikings disallows all non-human races and introduces the Trollborn, Half-troll as a new PC race.
Celts was even more restricted. You were human, but introduces 2 new sub races with a 1 in 20 chance of being a mixed blood half-Sidhe or half-Fomori.

Dark Sun introduces new sub races of elf, and halfling, as well as new sub-races of human in the Mul and Half Giant. And the Thri-Kreen as a new PC race. Later editions added Aracocra and a dragonborn varian among others to the list.

Dragonlance of course subdivided various demihuman races and replaced halflings with Kender, also added the Ildra pure trolls as a PC race. I believe later editions added a few more but do not have those to check.

Complete Humanoids opened up everything from Wemics to Gnolls to Orcs, Swanmays, Goblins, and so on.

d20 Ravenloft removed half-ors and introduced Calibans, humans twisted by curses and magic. And a half-Vistani.

But the real plethora of new PC races came from the Creature Crucible series for BX/BECMI.
Wee Folk added 13, including Trents, Sidhe, Hsao, Pixies, Brownies/Redcaps, Centaurs, Woodrakes, Dryads, Fauns, Sprites, Wood Imps, Leprechaun, and Pooka.
Top Ballista adds Faenare, a race of elven Harpies, Gnome, Gremlin, Harpy, Nagpa, Pegataur, Sphinx and Tabi.
Sea People added Tritons, Merrow, Aquatic Elves, Nixies, Kopru, Sea Giants, Kna and Shark-kin.
Night Howlers introduces PC Were-Bat, Bear, Boar, Fox, Rat, Seal, Shark, Tiger, Wolf and Devil-Swine.

Red Steel added some new ones as well such as the Lupin, Clockwork people, Rakasta and Tortles.

And of course Dragon introduced dozens of player and staff created new races or monsters as new PCs. And a BX article to create your own PC class or race from anything.

But no no no you say! None of that really counts... because! Its all those mean ol new players fault and this is all a totally new thing we must fight to our last breath. eg: being willfully ignorant.

Quote from: Omega on February 11, 2021, 12:09:15 PM
d20 Ravenloft removed half-ors and introduced Calibans, humans twisted by curses and magic. And a half-Vistani.

   Point of information: Half-Vistani were introduced in 2nd Edition, with Van Richten's Guide to the Vistani and Domains of Dread.

   And you forgot Council of Wyrms (dragons) and Requiem (undead), also for 2E.

  I still say the change was less the array of options that it was the greater unification of the 'game environment' produced by the Internet and WotC's emphasis on 'D&D for D&D's sake,' which produces something that can simultaneously seem wild to those who played on the more limited side and constrained to those who skewed more fantastic.

Quote from: Greywolf76 on February 11, 2021, 09:52:54 AM
That's one of the reasons I always frowned upon the more exotic races as PCs in my games. It would give the group all kinds of trouble, and then I'd have a player whining about how the game is unfair, and then it's one less player on the table.

But yes, a half-ogre on the party? No inn or city will allow them, because "everyone knows those monsters eat people".

A lizard-man or saurian on the party? "Well, everyone knows that according to Zaubar's ancient medical texts a lizard-man's eye / tail / little finger / penis dryed and powdered is the perfect medicine for the gout.

A drow on the party? Crossbow bolt on the chest as soon as the PC is seen. Kill it first, ask questions later.

You can do what you like in your world, but not all worlds will be like that. In AD&D 1e race relations, half-orcs are the least accepted among races -- but humans and half-orcs get along together (neutral) better than dwarves and elves (antipathy). It's only among demi-humans that half-orcs have a problem. The Free City of Greyhawk is described as:

QuotePopulation: 53,000 (city), 70,000+ total (including surrounding area)
Demi-humans: Some
Humanoids: Some

Lots of other countries in the world of Greyhawk have more humanoids than demi-humans. Humans in Greyhawk are pragmatic, frequently allying with humanoids rather than always with demi-humans. Also, in Greyhawk, almost all humans wouldn't even know what a Drow is, let alone shoot them on sight.

Other worlds differ. You do what you want in your world -- though if I was a player, I'd probably prefer to just be told "you can't play a drow" rather than being allowed to play one and then being killed the first time I go into any settlement.

Quote from: Greywolf76 on February 11, 2021, 09:52:54 AM
I used something like this to annoy one of my players who had a gnome mage once: the party visited a far kingdom where people believed gnomes were naturally lucky and rubbing one's head would give you luck for the entire day. LOL. After two days of this, the character snapped in a tavern: "I'll kick the crap out of the next son of a whore that rubs my head"! 

See, as a player, I'd find that fun. Grist for the RP mill. My only concern is if it becomes too disruptive to the game, but occasional interactions (or clusters of them) are fine.