Quote from: Shasarak on February 09, 2021, 10:38:32 PM

So you meant to say, starting with 4e PC monster races in the core PHB have increased with every edition.

Nope 3e.

In 2e the Half-Orc was dropped as a core PC race.

Brought back in 3e because "...rather than referring to real-world history and mythology. ...we basically used D&D as its own source..."

There was a cultural shift in the direction of the game at WOTC. For a lot of elements in D&D.

Quote from: Shasarak on February 09, 2021, 10:38:32 PM
You seem to be confusing people that play the game with the people that make the game.

There was no ground swell call for Dragonborn and Tiefling PC races before the 4e PHB came out.  In fact 4e not having Gnomes as a core race out of the gate was often cited as one reason why it did so poorly.

No ground swell?

From your own posts there was obviously a decent sized market pre-3e, and during 3e for monster races as PC's. They certainly put out enough supplemental material for them!

Seems they finally decided to cater to that market in the core PHB.

And they obviously learned their lesson with the Gnome, and brought them back along with the Half-Orc in 5e for good measure!

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on February 10, 2021, 12:29:17 PM
*Okay, I think I know -why- this is.  In a game where everybody is unique and special and different, some players have to feel -extra- special or else they feel like their character is "boring".  Some players out grow this with experience, some prefer the gonzo play style.

Personally, the only thing that can even get me to buy into a vampire game is if I'm allowed to run a Dhampir. Not because I need to be a special snowflake, but because I have a pathological aversion to playing parasitic monsters.

The ONLY sane reaction I imagine after regaining my senses after becoming a vampire would be to head straight to Confession followed by a walk out into the sun.

The Dhampir doesn't have to feed off mortals (indeed gains ZERO benefit from even attempting it), but can still be involved in the game (somewhat power capped; one dot limit in disciplines; but the V20 version is almost brokenly resilient... can theoretically soak aggravated damage equal to a 7th Gen with max Fortitude and heal aggravated damage in moments as if they had the blood pool of a 4th Gen*).

Quote** Alright.  Wanting to play a Mage in old-school World of Darkness games regardless of anything else isn't bad form.  It's just plain common sense.  (and while I'm half-joking when I say that, I'd never do that to somebody wanting to run a -Werewolf- game)

I would, though to be minimally disruptive I'd roll a Dreamspeaker with the Kinfolk merit.

I'd still utterly wreck things though because the oWoD scale of lethality goes Mage (unprepared) < Vampire < Werewolf < Demon < Reality < Mage (prepared), but at least I wouldn't shatter the Wolves' little corner of consensual reality while I do so.

* The rules bit with Dhampirs that allows both of these things is that, because they're alive, Dhampirs treat aggravated damage as lethal (because that's how it's treated for mortals in V20). However, like ghouls they can still soak lethal damage with stamina and heal lethal damage for 1 blood point per level.

The result is that a Dhampir with Stamina 5, Fort 1 can soak aggravated damage (because it's only lethal to them) with six dice... while a vampire can only soak Agg with Fortitude and 7th Gen is the weakest vampire that can buy Fort 6.

Likewise, while a Dhampir only has a blood pool of 10, it costs them only 1 blood point to heal a level of lethal damage (which all aggravated damage is for them) while it takes 24 hours and 5 blood points for a vampire to heal a level of aggravated damage... so it would take 50 blood points to match the aggravated healing of a dhampir; which is the blood pool size of a 4th Gen.

They're still weaker in virtually every other way and can't outsoak a Werewolf, but by amusing quirk of the rules Dhampirs are like the Energizer Bunny in terms of damage capacity in a vampire game.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on February 10, 2021, 12:29:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 09, 2021, 11:48:12 PM
Nowadays, however, monstrous freak characters are *everywhere* in virtually every group, by the trainload. And more importantly, such monstrous freak characters are typically obnoxious, whining bitch snowflakes.

I don't know when or how or why* it started, but I 'member back in the 90's when a group would sit down to play Vampire and somebody -had- to play a Werewolf, or they'd sit down to play Werewolf and somebody -had- to play a Mage**, or they'd sit down to play Mage and somebody -had- to play a were-dinosaur-with-demonic-investments-and-ghoul-powers-and-also-some-levels-of-Paladin-even-though-it-was-a-different-game-system.

Point being: this is an old thing, common to pretty much any game with "core" options and "supplemental" ones.

*Okay, I think I know -why- this is.  In a game where everybody is unique and special and different, some players have to feel -extra- special or else they feel like their character is "boring".  Some players out grow this with experience, some prefer the gonzo play style. 
** Alright.  Wanting to play a Mage in old-school World of Darkness games regardless of anything else isn't bad form.  It's just plain common sense.  (and while I'm half-joking when I say that, I'd never do that to somebody wanting to run a -Werewolf- game)

It's even more common than that.  There's "that guy" that will always react that way.  He will do it even if you plan the setting as a group before play starts.  He will even agree during the setting planning:

"We agree we want to play an all-human game, low magic, set in a fantasy analog of south-western Europe within a century or two of the fall of Rome? OK then, go make your characters."  That guy comes back with a Hungarian half-elf that was personal friends with the last emperor and has access to magic now lost.

He will say that he was agreeing during the planning merely to be agreeable but then felt unduly constrained.  So next campaign, you play wide-open kitchen sink in a global setting with 15 races and 37 classes and numerous options but still some setting limits.  He agrees.  He shows up with a time-traveling alien from another dimension that could not possibly be made from any of those building blocks.

More normal people that really wanted to play an elf in the first game would have raised that question while the campaign was being discussed or pitched or at least let the GM know that they'll give the campaign a shot but would prefer a few more options.  Most people that have a strong streak of "that guy" in their nature are more subtle in their attempts to manipulate the setting for their amusement.  Some few of the latter can even be enjoyable players to have in a group, if the GM has a backbone.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 10, 2021, 01:20:52 PM
It's even more common than that.  There's "that guy" that will always react that way.  He will do it even if you plan the setting as a group before play starts.

"That guy" doesn't even need to use race; it's just often the most convenient.

Religion is another common way they play disrutor in my experience. "That Guy" in one campaign was playing a human fighter... whose patron was Bane (in his aspect as god of discipline and military strength or so the player claimed).

Or, after listening to everyone else lay out the goals their PCs are interested in pursuing, decides their PC's goals will be mutually exclusive (ex. from the Vampire game I mentioned recently; PCs want to establish a power base in the city and maybe overthrow the Prince eventually... their goal? Become a jet-setting international pop celebrity).

Frankly, I'll take someone who wants to play a talking dog, but otherwise gets along with the rest of the PCs and shares their goals over the Bane worshipper and "celebrity sparkles" vampire any day of the week.

Quote from: moonsweeper on February 10, 2021, 01:26:16 AM
You keep missing my point.

Yes, all of those campaign settings had a unique 'monster race' or two that were baked-in/added very early...except for Planescape and Spelljammer which were the over-the-top settings, designed to add anything from the other settings.

0e would have whatever the DM created or allowed since the settings were basically all homebrew.

3e used unified mechanics for monsters and PCs...this, along with proliferation due to OGL, and the spread of info through the internet, made it much easier for people to develop 'playable' monsters...which culminated in the Savage Species book a few years later.  This is all a good thing.

I don't really understand what you have against 3e 

...Over the years, one of the useful things from 3e (easy ability to add a monster PC to the campaign if you want) has become overused to the point that you are seeing a traveling circus effect (which can also be blamed on hyper-optimization to get that last possible +1)...and now more and more monster races are being added without them really fitting the campaign settings...but that is hardly the fault of 3e, its just a downstream effect.

Since you love 3e so much then you would be able to bring some proof of what you are saying to the table.

Because at the moment it sounds like you are saying that pre-3e DMs banned having monster PC in their campaigns and post-3e DMs had no choice but to allow Players to play what ever PC race that they wanted.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 10, 2021, 01:13:06 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 09, 2021, 10:38:32 PM

So you meant to say, starting with 4e PC monster races in the core PHB have increased with every edition.

Nope 3e.

In 2e the Half-Orc was dropped as a core PC race.

Brought back in 3e because "...rather than referring to real-world history and mythology. ...we basically used D&D as its own source..."

There was a cultural shift in the direction of the game at WOTC. For a lot of elements in D&D.

The only reason that Half-Orc was dropped from 2e was the Woke scalds that were coming after DnD during the Satanic Panic caused the neck beards designing 2e to pull all risque material from DnD.  So bye bye Assassin, Devils, Demons and yes Half-Orcs.

Quote

Quote from: Shasarak on February 09, 2021, 10:38:32 PM
You seem to be confusing people that play the game with the people that make the game.

There was no ground swell call for Dragonborn and Tiefling PC races before the 4e PHB came out.  In fact 4e not having Gnomes as a core race out of the gate was often cited as one reason why it did so poorly.

No ground swell?

From your own posts there was obviously a decent sized market pre-3e, and during 3e for monster races as PC's. They certainly put out enough supplemental material for them!

Seems they finally decided to cater to that market in the core PHB.

And they obviously learned their lesson with the Gnome, and brought them back along with the Half-Orc in 5e for good measure!

Two very niche races that barely any DnD player had even heard about?

Most people wont believe you but I do.   

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 10, 2021, 11:11:17 AM
There are cultural changes that WotC made when they took over that, I think, have increased the prevalence of new and more exotic PC races, although by no means was it original to the newer editions of the game. It was 2nd Edition, after all, that gave us rules for dragon and undead PCs.

One is a rules-based change--the class and level limits of O/B/AD&D died thoroughly with the launch of 3E and have never made a real comeback since.

1: Not really. Players were submitting exotic races to Dragon fairly often and as noted, A/2, B/BX/BECMI had a surprisingly large mumber, especially BX/BECMI.

2: There was an increasing push to remove race level limits long long before 3e. And groups were ignoring those limits right out the gate. 3e just made it alot more official.

Quote from: Shasarak on February 10, 2021, 03:21:50 PM
The only reason that Half-Orc was dropped from 2e was the Woke scalds that were coming after DnD during the Satanic Panic caused the neck beards designing 2e to pull all risque material from DnD.  So bye bye Assassin, Devils, Demons and yes Half-Orcs.

Yet somehow, according to your own posts, they managed to release a good amount of material in that era that gave players options to play many different monster PC races...

Obviously their fear of the Woke scalds knew no limit.

Quote from: Shasarak on February 09, 2021, 10:38:32 PM
Two very niche races that barely any DnD player had even heard about?

They served the cultural shift in the market. And for niche races that "barely any DnD player had even heard about"; they seem to be rather well received.

It seems that the people who made the game knew what the people who played the game wanted.

Quote** Alright.  Wanting to play a Mage in old-school World of Darkness games regardless of anything else isn't bad form.  It's just plain common sense.  (and while I'm half-joking when I say that, I'd never do that to somebody wanting to run a -Werewolf- game)

On higher "levels" yes. In terms of beginning characters for a long time Werewolfs can just smack around Mage and Vampire crossovers.

QuotePersonally, the only thing that can even get me to buy into a vampire game is if I'm allowed to run a Dhampir. Not because I need to be a special snowflake, but because I have a pathological aversion to playing parasitic monsters.

I think there are option nowadays to avoid hurting people - at least too much - like feeding on blood banks for instance.
As Mascarade Vampires still keeps their human identity - I'd not call them like fully monsters, not if they decide not to submit to Beast.

QuoteThe ONLY sane reaction I imagine after regaining my senses after becoming a vampire would be to head straight to Confession followed by a walk out into the sun.

Either you are alive - and then cannot commit suicide, or dead and then you cannot confess

Quote"That Guy" in one campaign was playing a human fighter... whose patron was Bane (in his aspect as god of discipline and military strength or so the player claimed).

My Lawful Neutral GM nods in approval. XD
He gets our team Banite Paladine woman as a retinue. NG elven archer is still disturbed

QuoteYet somehow, according to your own posts, they managed to release a good amount of material in that era that gave players options to play many different monster PC races...

Obviously their fear of the Woke scalds knew no limit.

I presume primo Satanic Panic was bit limited in time, and secondo - core rules are also of different meaning than Supplement nr. 34

Quote from: Jaeger on February 10, 2021, 06:25:28 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 10, 2021, 03:21:50 PM
The only reason that Half-Orc was dropped from 2e was the Woke scalds that were coming after DnD during the Satanic Panic caused the neck beards designing 2e to pull all risque material from DnD.  So bye bye Assassin, Devils, Demons and yes Half-Orcs.

Yet somehow, according to your own posts, they managed to release a good amount of material in that era that gave players options to play many different monster PC races...

Obviously their fear of the Woke scalds knew no limit.

My guess is that she-who-must-not-be-named liked money more then she hated "bad" publicity because by the time 2.5e rolled around they had no problem building monster PC races directly into the core rules.

But I guess we can not talk about 2.5e because that would destroy your narrative about how it was 3e, years later, that was the font of problem monster PC races.

Your one weakness, people that can remember.

Quote

Quote from: Shasarak on February 09, 2021, 10:38:32 PM
Two very niche races that barely any DnD player had even heard about?

They served the cultural shift in the market. And for niche races that "barely any DnD player had even heard about"; they seem to be rather well received.

It seems that the people who made the game knew what the people who played the game wanted.

It looks like Dragonborn and Tieflings are the fifth and sixth most popular races in 5e, beating out Halflings, Half Orcs and Gnomes

So what is official top 10 of races played by dunno official roll20 tables or social polls?

Quote from: Shasarak on February 10, 2021, 06:59:32 PM
It looks like Dragonborn and Tieflings are the fifth and sixth most popular races in 5e, beating out Halflings, Half Orcs and Gnomes

That's actually old data from the D&D Beyond beta (the top four in order being Human, Half-Elf, Elf and Dwarf).

The 2020 data from D&D Beyond indicates that Dragonborn and Tieflings are now 3 and 4 respectively; bumping off the elves and the dwarves. Humans and half-elves still remain #1 and 2 by a wide margin however. (ETA: this is different than the chart below, which was from 2019... so the numbers aren't a static ratio by any means).

Half-orcs also made a comeback, climbing to #5 and also beating out elves and dwarves now.

So, by the numbers, humans and half-humans (-elves, -orcs, and -devils) are four of the top five races with "Proud Warrior Race" dragon guy rounding them out, but still falling well behind humans and half-elves.

So much for the theory that weird monster snowflakes were taking over D&D these days. The only thing they're taking over are snowflake Twitter feeds, which we already know are not a representative sample of the population.

ETA: Here's a jpg from a D&D Beyond presentation someone put up at enworld.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 10, 2021, 07:03:47 PM
So what is official top 10 of races played by dunno official roll20 tables or social polls?

Here are the official top 10 races as created by players on DnD beyond:

Human
Elf
Half-Elf
Dwarf
Dragonborn
Tiefling
Genasi
Halfling
Half-Orc
Gnome
Goliath
Aarakocra
Aasimar

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 10, 2021, 07:37:16 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 10, 2021, 06:59:32 PM
It looks like Dragonborn and Tieflings are the fifth and sixth most popular races in 5e, beating out Halflings, Half Orcs and Gnomes

That's actually old data from the D&D Beyond beta (the top four in order being Human, Half-Elf, Elf and Dwarf).

The 2020 data from D&D Beyond indicates that Dragonborn and Tieflings are now 3 and 4 respectively; bumping off the elves and the dwarves. Humans and half-elves still remain #1 and 2 by a wide margin however. (ETA: this is different than the chart below, which was from 2019... so the numbers aren't a static ratio by any means).

Half-orcs also made a comeback, climbing to #5 and also beating out elves and dwarves now.

That is only true if you break Elves and Dwarves down to their sub races.

So, not true.

Aasimar after Aarakocra - truly D&D is lost and taken forever by feathery furries. (Srsly scalies and featheries are present - but no furries, are furries just playing dwarves now? I WANT TO KNOW) XD

The chart Chris pasted is bit meh - as it divides certain groups IMHO unnecessary and counterintuitevly.

Add them up:

Human - 22,8%
Elf - 13,7%
Half-Elf - 9,1%
Tiefling - 7,5%
Dragonborn - 7,2%
Dwarf - 6,6%
Half-Orc - 4,7%
Halfling - 4,7%
Gnome - 3,1%
Aasimar - 2,9%
Aarakocra - 2,8%
Goliath - 3,9%
Genasi - 3,4%
Changeling - 1,4%
Tabaxi - 1,2%