I'm working on "A Thing(TM)(R)(C)," which isn't yet ready for public examination but is almost baked enough for collaboration.  I want to refine the idea privately and ensure everything is well-armored, relevant, and persuasive before I go public.  I plan to release a video series laying out all the arguments in bite-sized pieces alongside some merch someone could use to show their support.  I may or may not donate the proceeds to charity, assuming one on the merch vendor's list is appropriate.  I think YouTube and possibly Rumble (depending on how easy that is), but I am open to input.  I mainly want the message out.

The core idea is this - WotC has had a year to make things right with the community.  They haven't.  Here is a list of reasons why you should give your money and time to other creators.

It will be timed to coincide with the 1st anniversary of the attempted murder of OGL 1.0a...

As for the venue, I'm open to whatever as well.  Discord seems appropriate.  I have one, or I would happily join one.  Here would work if it were private enough (but I don't think it is.)  I'd think surprise is a factor here, as their marketing department is more extensive than mine...

TL,DR - Please let me know if you'd like to help refine a persuasive argument to quit D&D.

The timing is really bad for me to get involved but I wish you luck.

The whole white men need no longer play thing pissed me off so much I boxed up all my WOTC 5e stuff and mailed it back to WOTC and asked for a refund.  Of course I didn't get one but I feel it was worth it.  Now imagine several hundred guys doing it all at once.

They never did walk that back, did they?

One can quit WOTC and still enjoy D&D. There was plenty of D&D goodness before WOTC came along and it is still good. So as I crack open my AD&D tomes, I can can simply enjoy without giving a thought, or a dime to WOTC. That is the Staples Easy Button of quitting.

Quote from: mcbobbo on November 29, 2023, 05:17:13 PM
They never did walk that back, did they?

Nope.

At this point I'm hoping Hasbro goes into receivership in the next couple of years.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 29, 2023, 08:33:02 PM
One can quit WOTC and still enjoy D&D. There was plenty of D&D goodness before WOTC came along and it is still good. So as I crack open my AD&D tomes, I can can simply enjoy without giving a thought, or a dime to WOTC. That is the Staples Easy Button of quitting.

How does one quit a lifestyle brand by continuing to contribute to its zeitgeist?

Quote from: mcbobbo on November 30, 2023, 07:42:22 AM
How does one quit a lifestyle brand by continuing to contribute to its zeitgeist?

I wonder if there is a single zeitgeist or a set of branching ones.  Continuing to play TSR's B/X or AD&D doesn't feel like a contribution to the modern WoTC 5e ecosystem to me. 


I know some folks who own Studebakers, but they don't consider themselves AMC nor Chrysler fans.

Quote from: JackFS4 on November 30, 2023, 09:03:08 AMI know some folks who own Studebakers, but they don't consider themselves AMC nor Chrysler fans.

But would AMC or Chrysler count them among their happy customers?  That, I think, is the issue with continuing to associate with D&D lineage games.  Chris Cox will include you when he reports strong brand performance to his shareholders.  Particularly when you're buying DMsGuild PDFs, used products on Mercari, licensed shirts, etc.  Either you're supporting competitors or you're building the brand through association.

Each of us gets to decide if association is still appropriate while WotC benefits from the good will it generates.  If you'd like to poke holes in the framing I will use to make this case, you're in the right thread.

Define D&D.

Are OSE, OSRIC, and Swords & Wizardry D&D?

Quote from: mcbobbo on November 30, 2023, 12:17:06 PM
But would AMC or Chrysler count them among their happy customers?  That, I think, is the issue with continuing to associate with D&D lineage games.  Chris Cox will include you when he reports strong brand performance to his shareholders.  Particularly when you're buying DMsGuild PDFs, used products on Mercari, licensed shirts, etc.  Either you're supporting competitors or you're building the brand through association.

    Does WotC count Pathfinder customers as 'loyal customers'?

    Buying WotC-owned or licensed products definitely feeds the brand, but I have a hard time believing that supporting a game that simply has a common ancestry does the same. And the OSR material that deliberately reaches out to association with nostalgia for the D&D IP seems to become a smaller and smaller part of the movement each year. (Troll Lords is leveraging the Gygax stuff again, but Gygax has been pretty soundly disassociated from the Current D&D Brand for nearly forty years at this point.)

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 30, 2023, 01:00:37 PM
Are OSE, OSRIC, and Swords & Wizardry D&D?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 30, 2023, 01:19:32 PMDoes WotC count Pathfinder customers as 'loyal customers'?

These waters are muddy in the first instance.  "D&D" is best defined as a collection of ideas that Gygax took (some say stole) from other games to make a marketable product.  There's never going to be a clear lineage to a game that uses ship combat statistics as a measurement of health.  So let's not go down rabbit holes.

The answer to the both of you is the same, and it's in two parts:

1) Does WotC see the money you're spending as competitive, and

2) Does the public see what you are doing as a market alternative to what WotC sells?

(The permission granted by the OGL could also be a factor here, but that's its own topic so I'm setting it aside.)

Is OSR competitive to D&D?  Yes.  Brand-wise, "OSR" has pretty much gotten there.  People know what it is, and the brand has enough demand for outsiders to seek to take it over on places like reddit.  So that's a 'yes' for both tests there.  Few are looking at Knave and thinking it's the same game as 5e.

Pathfinder is a 'yes' in the first test for me, for sure, but the second is less clear.  Books like Battlezoo can print for both, so that doesn't seem like something the public would see as distinct to me.

A major theme for me in this is individual choice.  I'm not here to tell you what to 'do', even if I make suggestions.  I see my mission more as giving you things to think about so you can make a decision.  But I very much want each person to decide what they are comfortable with, after having considered it.

And I suspect that many if not most in the industry and/or on YouTube cannot hear my message at all.  As Upton Sinclair is often quoted, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."  And this was *before* algorithmic engagement in the online world.  It's certainly more difficult now.

I recommend your argument be unequivocal as to what "D&D" means for purposes of the argument. It doesn't have to be unassailable, but it should be clear. Otherwise people with a different definition of D&D will tune out. Same for "OSR". Probably best to avoid that term because it means wildly different things to different people.

Your goal is to help people to decide to stop giving WotC more money, correct? So, OSE, OSRIC, etc should be fine, as should used TSR products and stuff like that. Delving into the realm of things that might be perceived by the public as "D&D" is a waste of time IMO because nobody knows the public's mind but everyone thinks they do. In fact, any game that used or still uses the OGL should be fine because they were the direct targets of WotC's attack or at very least they were acceptable collateral damage.

For the purpose of the argument I define D&D in the same way WotC does:

The all-encompassing under monetized lifestyle brand.

If we reject only the books that were printed after a certain date without also rejecting the TV shows, the movies, the cookbook, and Baldur's Gate 3, then I humbly submit we will utterly fail in getting a point across.

Also if you reject only that which is easy to reject because it held no interest for you anyway, are you actually doing anything at all?

Quote from: mcbobbo on November 30, 2023, 03:23:33 PM
For the purpose of the argument I define D&D in the same way WotC does:

The all-encompassing under monetized lifestyle brand.

If we reject only the books that were printed after a certain date without also rejecting the TV shows, the movies, the cookbook, and Baldur's Gate 3, then I humbly submit we will utterly fail in getting a point across.

  I think the confusion was that you started this subthread by reacting against Exploderwizard's suggestion to use pre-WotC material. Now, I do think there's potential for that to feed into the brand, but only in the most minute or remote ways--if someone purchases or encourages (explicitly or implicitly) others to purchase the PDFs or reprints from DriveThru/DMGuild, or otherwise feeds attention into the current product. But that's very much an edge case, IMO.

Quote
Also if you reject only that which is easy to reject because it held no interest for you anyway, are you actually doing anything at all?

  Good point. Since I have no interest in anything related to D&D anymore aside from some old 2E or OGL material, I should probably absent myself from this discussion.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 30, 2023, 03:36:58 PMI think the confusion was that you started this subthread by reacting against Exploderwizard's suggestion to use pre-WotC material. Now, I do think there's potential for that to feed into the brand, but only in the most minute or remote ways--if someone purchases or encourages (explicitly or implicitly) others to purchase the PDFs or reprints from DriveThru/DMGuild, or otherwise feeds attention into the current product. But that's very much an edge case, IMO.

Let's try a context shift.

Assuming this position:  "I wish to disassociate myself from Star Wars because I don't support what Disney is doing with the brand."

Is it consistent to buy and wear a shirt promoting A New Hope?

And, optionally, would a member of the public see you wearing that shirt and understand your position on what Disney is doing with the brand?  Seems to me they would assume the opposite.

Finally, same position but a Star Trek shirt.  The issues go away, right?

Not quite clear why this is hard, unless there's a desire to exclude the things labeled "D&D" at the top center of their front cover that you happen to like.