I'd be suspicious of gods "of" things though, if we're going for the full pagan experience. The kind of systematised, rationalised pantheon we think of when we think of the Greco-Roman religious systems is very much a post-facto creation. Gods were powerful beings with specific areas of interest, just like Superman spends most of his time dealing with Metropolis, but occasionally steps out to save the entire world. Superman isn't Metropolis, or even the personification of Metropolis. But it's his home, and you'd better watch out if you try and fuck with it while he's around.

Dionysus was the patron god of Thebes not because Thebans were notorious drunkards or some other thematic relationship, but because his mother was from there, and because he would fuck you up if you failed to respect him in what he considered to be his home. Athena was the patron god of Athens because she won a bet, not because the Athenians were particular wise or virginal. The gods favour individuals less because they're devout or representative of the god's theme, and more because they're interesting, or pretty, or useful, or relatives, or a representative of the city or region the god considers their home turf and therefore part of the god's "team", or members of a traditional phratry the god owes protection to.

Gods don't get drunk and fuck because they're the god of drinking or the god of fucking, they get drunk and fuck because drinking and fucking are fun, and gods are powerful enough that they can have fun whenever and with whoever they want.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;447944I'd be suspicious of gods "of" things though, if we're going for the full pagan experience. The kind of systematised, rationalised pantheon we think of when we think of the Greco-Roman religious systems is very much a post-facto creation. Gods were powerful beings with specific areas of interest, just like Superman spends most of his time dealing with Metropolis, but occasionally steps out to save the entire world. Superman isn't Metropolis, or even the personification of Metropolis. But it's his home, and you'd better watch out if you try and fuck with it while he's around.

Dionysus was the patron god of Thebes not because Thebans were notorious drunkards or some other thematic relationship, but because his mother was from there, and because he would fuck you up if you failed to respect him in what he considered to be his home. Athena was the patron god of Athens because she won a bet, not because the Athenians were particular wise or virginal. The gods favour individuals less because they're devout or representative of the god's theme, and more because they're interesting, or pretty, or useful, or relatives, or a representative of the city or region the god considers their home turf and therefore part of the god's "team", or members of a traditional phratry the god owes protection to.

Gods don't get drunk and fuck because they're the god of drinking or the god of fucking, they get drunk and fuck because drinking and fucking are fun, and gods are powerful enough that they can have fun whenever and with whoever they want.

I can see the logic of that and I certainly agree with your post-facto point that later observers try to categorise patheons into working groups. However, if we are talking about a fantasy game where god are real I think the "God's of ...." take is a very powerful one mechanically. If you go the other route then  all goods can grant all spheres and there is no concept of being a Cleric of Law, or Chaos, or Goats, or Cheese as basically you can get those benefits from any god.

Without a doubt historically the vast majority of gods are gods of places or groups. So as you state Athena is basically the god of Athens, Jehovah is basically the god of The Hebrews etc ... but typically in a fantasy Pantheon we do tend to opt for some flavour of those classical divisions, spliting Polytheistic collections into specific Spheres. In D&D terms this was specifically written into the Priest Class in 2e.

As for sex and drinking well some gods do it and some don't. So the Greek God do it quite a lot the Hebrew God a lot less. I can't really recall a Greek Law god. I guess the most lawful Greek god is Hades in as much as he manipulates 'rules' to get what he wants rather than just taking it (Persephone, Orpheus and Eyridice etc).
Actually that is quite interesting when yu consider Greek City states were pretty strong on Laws. They just seem to be less theorcratic. hmmm....

Quote from: jibbajibba;447952Without a doubt historically the vast majority of gods are gods of places or groups. So as you state Athena is basically the god of Athens, Jehovah is basically the god of The Hebrews etc ... but typically in a fantasy Pantheon we do tend to opt for some flavour of those classical divisions, spliting Polytheistic collections into specific Spheres. In D&D terms this was specifically written into the Priest Class in 2e.

Yeah, but I tend to think of as a misapprehension that's been carried over across editions, rather than something you really need to follow. Runequest is the easiest system to move away from that paradigm in, but I think even in D&D it's possible.

QuoteAs for sex and drinking well some gods do it and some don't. So the Greek God do it quite a lot the Hebrew God a lot less. I can't really recall a Greek Law god. I guess the most lawful Greek god is Hades in as much as he manipulates 'rules' to get what he wants rather than just taking it (Persephone, Orpheus and Eyridice etc).
Actually that is quite interesting when yu consider Greek City states were pretty strong on Laws. They just seem to be less theorcratic. hmmm....

Lawfulness is more a theme for spirits in the Greco-Roman religious systems, if I understand things correctly. The semo Sancus and the Eumenides are examples of near-gods that sanctify certain laws, oaths and courts. Daimones were frequently invoked in Athenian law cases to guarantee certain claims. You don't see many full-on pagan gods obeying laws because they are the sovereigns of the natural world - they create its laws, but are not themselves governed by it. Heroes are humans who attain some element of this (usually in the form of immortality and supreme arete).

Quote from: jibbajibba;447936I am open to ideas give me some examples.

Some Law gods

Jehovah
Marduk
Maat/Thoth
Quetzalcoatl

All of these gods inspired some pretty proscriptive Laws with plenty of sacrifice and execution for minimal crimes. Now if we put to one side the concept that these were all ideas used by an educated elite to manipulate the prolitariat and assume they were divinely inspired then these gods of law are petty micro-managers.

Now if you are saying that a God might not care about what their follows do and grant powers to anyone without paying due care and attention then ... possibly but it doesn't sound much like a god a law to me. I would have thought that paying attention and sticking to the rules were pretty much a given. We are not talking Bacchus here after all.

But again give me some examples I am not religious about this

I think you're mixing up "law" (ie. the "divine sphere") with "lawful" (the alignment).
For example, I would list Zeus/Jupiter as a lawful deity.  Krishna too.

In any case, you're seriously putting the cart before the horse here; you're suggesting that the Jewish God, for example, would necessarily and automatically be giving clear signals as to how he demanded to be worshiped, based on a particular reading of the Jewish biblical texts; and yet, those texts PRE-SUPPOSE a deity that is real and has basically unlimited divine powers, and the people who worshiped him imagined him to be so, and yet there were a great number of different sects of ancient/classical Judaism; nor did all of them necessarily assert that all of the others were not Jewish.

And again, there were tons of different "sects" of Jupiter-worship, based on the different aspects of Jupiter as a god.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jibbajibba;447942Now as I mentioned up post you coudl go to the Marabout tradition. These Islamic Saints have magical power, baraka, and it can be physically manifest. There are plenty of examples of Marabouts tricking each other and stealing their Baraka. ( http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X8waCmzjiD4C&pg=PA931&lpg=PA931&dq=marabouts+and+baraka&source=bl&ots=hG-jm-02L5&sig=ZntubaFnpe9YB1saovXJWQIxFp8&hl=en&ei=VUiLTaSoDMXBhAfwhrC4Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=marabouts%20and%20baraka&f=false )
But you will note that whilst Marabouts are closer to god their baraka doesn't seem to be god given but rather is their own. So this is a substantial break with the typical D&D cleric (well the typical D&D cleric where some attention has been paid to religion so not really typical at all but you get what I mean)

Yes, well, mysticism is another area where traditional D&D and traditional D&D fantasy worlds fail miserably at adequately reflecting.   There were plenty of traditions all over the world that believed that "spirit men" got their power from sources other than just direct divine adoration/prayer, without being in any way definable as "wizards".

In many traditions, the source of your spiritual power was far more likely to come from your lineage and (human) teacher than directly from deities.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;448070I think you're mixing up "law" (ie. the "divine sphere") with "lawful" (the alignment).
For example, I would list Zeus/Jupiter as a lawful deity.  Krishna too.

In any case, you're seriously putting the cart before the horse here; you're suggesting that the Jewish God, for example, would necessarily and automatically be giving clear signals as to how he demanded to be worshiped, based on a particular reading of the Jewish biblical texts; and yet, those texts PRE-SUPPOSE a deity that is real and has basically unlimited divine powers, and the people who worshiped him imagined him to be so, and yet there were a great number of different sects of ancient/classical Judaism; nor did all of them necessarily assert that all of the others were not Jewish.

And again, there were tons of different "sects" of Jupiter-worship, based on the different aspects of Jupiter as a god.

RPGPundit

Not sure I see Zeus as alignment lawful (and no I am not mixing them up honest) . Zeus basically does what he wants he certainly doesn't pay much atention to the laws of marriage for example.
Jehovah on the other hand is truely lawful of alignment. He actually makes a contract with his chosen people that he promises to abide by, before he smotes a city he sends a guy along to give them a change , Jonah, and he gives his people strict rules to abide by. If anything I see Jehovah as LN in D&D terms.

I bow to your superior knowledge on the worship of Jupiter, afterall that is very much in your sphere of expertise.  However as I posted up thread I would see groups worshiping different aspects of a god as orders rather than sects and was refering to sects as groups with opposing views of the gods will. I know that is not a strict defintion of sects but it relates back to my fundamental point that a lawful (or a good diety) wouldn't magically endow two sides of the same battle with power to kill each other.

Quote from: jibbajibba;448083Not sure I see Zeus as alignment lawful (and no I am not mixing them up honest) . Zeus basically does what he wants he certainly doesn't pay much atention to the laws of marriage for example.
Jehovah on the other hand is truely lawful of alignment. He actually makes a contract with his chosen people that he promises to abide by, before he smotes a city he sends a guy along to give them a change , Jonah, and he gives his people strict rules to abide by. If anything I see Jehovah as LN in D&D terms.

In the OT, at least, he keeps on changing the bargains and deals, and he spends a lot of time dicking around and being a douche to individuals I don't think the D&D alignment system adequately characterises most real-world gods.

Yeah, I was going to say that it takes a rather directed reading of the scripture to judge that Yahweh is a guy who acts much differently (with regard to "law", anyways) than Zeus.

RPGPundit