In D&D and the OSR in general we have the spells divided by school, IMHO said division doesn't make much sense lots of times (Flaming Sphere creates fire, shapes it and controls it, so it should be part of 3 schools IMHO).

Conjuration (Definitions of conjure. verb. summon into action or bring into existence, often as if by magic. "he conjured wild birds in the air" synonyms: arouse, bring up, call down, call forth, conjure up, evoke, invoke, put forward, raise, stir call forth, evoke, kick up, provoke.)

Yet the schools use sometimes words that mean the same thing, Evocation, Conjuration and Illusion should all fall under the same school IMHO

Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation (the act of bringing or recalling a feeling, memory, or image to the conscious mind.
"the vivid evocation of stillness in the title poem"

    an account or work of art that brings or recalls a feeling, memory, or image to the conscious mind.
    "his 560-page epic is a detailed, moving evocation of childhood"
    the action of eliciting a response.
    "the mutual evocation of responses through body language"

2.
the action of invoking a spirit or deity.
"the evocation of wandering spirits")


Illusion
Necromancy
Transmutation

Yet we have the Alchemist but he's capable of doing everything (or almost) just by different means (potions, oils, tinctures, etc)

I was thinking the Schools should be focused on the HOW not the WHAT the MU does magic.

So we have:

Alchemy (use a lab to create potions, oils, tinctures, etc)
Spiritual (summoning or asking the spirits)
Ritual ( lit a candle under the full moon type of thing)
Incantation (recite certain arcane words in a precise order)
Runes/Tatoos/

Or maybe by source of power:

Blood Magic
Moon Magic
Earth
Fire
Water
Air

Not sure IF I managed to explain myself correctly but I hope I did, thoughts?

  The eight schools appear to be a bit of chrome Gygax slipped into the 1E PHB that didn't have much impact beyond 'how does this register to a detailed examination with detect magic?', and I think they've acquired much more weight than they were ever meant to bear.

  The 2nd Edition supplement Player's Options: Spells & Magic organized the schools into three different types of schools--schools of philosophy (the classic eight and a new "Universal Magic" school), schools of effect (elementalism, mentalism, dimensional magic, shadow magic, etc.) and schools of thaumaturgy (casting method--alchemy, artifice, song magic, geometry, etc.). I don't think that was ever developed beyond that supplement, though.

Did you take a look at Ars Magica or GURPS Magic? GURPS in particular has some advice on designing "syntactic magic systems" as these are called. It divides them broadly into Noun/Verb and Realm systems.

Neat topic!

Aquelarre has an interesting magic system. It definitely differentiates "what" and "how", and considers "who" as well.

Forms
Invocatio (invocation, summoning)
Maleficium (curse, charm, hex, etc.)
Potio (potions)
Amuletum (amulet, trinket)
Unguentum (ointment, salve)

The forms dictate how the spell must manifest. An amulet must be worn, a salve must be spread onto the body, etc.

Then there is the nature of the magic: white (good, at least by design) and black (evil, goetic). White magic is not accepted by the church, but you're not going to hell. Black magic, on the other hand, you're going to burn in hell if you cast even one of these spells.

Finally there are origins of the spells: folk magic, alchemy, infernal spells, and forbidden magic. These tell you who might know a given spell. A rural witch will practice folk magic, maybe with a side of infernal. A Moorish scholar might practice alchemy. Etc etc.

Oh, it also has components, like herbs, minerals, sperm from a hanged man, you know the basics.

As for D&D, I was given to understand that Conjuration brought forth a being from another plane or realm, while Invocation/Evocation created matter/energy from nothing. Illusion might just affect the target's mind. So they are different but yeah, there's overlap and the classification of a particular spell is somewhat arbitrary. I sometimes use the schools for color, like summoning a monster brings it forth while engaged in some activity on its home plane.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 30, 2024, 03:23:09 PM

  The eight schools appear to be a bit of chrome Gygax slipped into the 1E PHB that didn't have much impact beyond 'how does this register to a detailed examination with detect magic?', and I think they've acquired much more weight than they were ever meant to bear.

  The 2nd Edition supplement Player's Options: Spells & Magic organized the schools into three different types of schools--schools of philosophy (the classic eight and a new "Universal Magic" school), schools of effect (elementalism, mentalism, dimensional magic, shadow magic, etc.) and schools of thaumaturgy (casting method--alchemy, artifice, song magic, geometry, etc.). I don't think that was ever developed beyond that supplement, though.

You know the saddest part?

I own the Player's Options: Spells & Magic must be part of from where I'm drawing these ideas. 

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 30, 2024, 03:27:37 PM
Did you take a look at Ars Magica or GURPS Magic? GURPS in particular has some advice on designing "syntactic magic systems" as these are called. It divides them broadly into Noun/Verb and Realm systems.

I'm familiar with the syntactic magic system, but more than a new or different magic system I want to change the current one so it makes more sense to me at least.

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 30, 2024, 03:45:31 PM
Neat topic!

Aquelarre has an interesting magic system. It definitely differentiates "what" and "how", and considers "who" as well.

Forms
Invocatio (invocation, summoning)
Maleficium (curse, charm, hex, etc.)
Potio (potions)
Amuletum (amulet, trinket)
Unguentum (ointment, salve)

The forms dictate how the spell must manifest. An amulet must be worn, a salve must be spread onto the body, etc.

Then there is the nature of the magic: white (good, at least by design) and black (evil, goetic). White magic is not accepted by the church, but you're not going to hell. Black magic, on the other hand, you're going to burn in hell if you cast even one of these spells.

Finally there are origins of the spells: folk magic, alchemy, infernal spells, and forbidden magic. These tell you who might know a given spell. A rural witch will practice folk magic, maybe with a side of infernal. A Moorish scholar might practice alchemy. Etc etc.

Oh, it also has components, like herbs, minerals, sperm from a hanged man, you know the basics.

As for D&D, I was given to understand that Conjuration brought forth a being from another plane or realm, while Invocation/Evocation created matter/energy from nothing. Illusion might just affect the target's mind. So they are different but yeah, there's overlap and the classification of a particular spell is somewhat arbitrary. I sometimes use the schools for color, like summoning a monster brings it forth while engaged in some activity on its home plane.

I don't have Aquelarre, sounds like I need it. Both for this and for the White/Black magic divide, since I have wanted that for a while.

It doesn't happen to have Grey magic too does it?

It doesn't have a way to cleanse yourself from the taint of using black magic? Penance and stuff?

For this kind of thing to work well, I think you do need at least a 2-axis breakdown.  However, it will work a whole lot better if you leave some stuff out of that grid, and save if for flavor and/or idiosyncratic exceptions.  Unless of course you are doing something like rytrasmi explained, where part of the point is that it is supposed to all encompassing.

For my own game, after trying several more comprehensive variants of "schools" and "elements" and whatnot, I backed off into one axis being a few "Traditions" and the other a slightly more rigorous (but only slightly) breakdown of "elements" appropriate to the setting mixed with a few oddball categories where "elements" didn't really fit.  I'm trying to leave some room for mystery.

For example, in addition to the elements of "sky", "stone", etc, I've also got "anda" for magic that is pure manipulation at the magical atomic level and "beyond" for those strange extra-planar spells.  Then I started with 3 traditions, and now have 4, with the possibility to add another 1 or 2 going forward without it causing too much disruption.  If some of the traditions cross-over a little and others not so much, that's fine.  Some traditions favor certain elements/oddball categories more than others, but it's not this precise grid thing.

I don't know how well you can do this retrofitting to an existing list of spells, which is why the "schools" never really made much sense if you looked at them closely.  It's more of a framework for writing spells in some coherent fashion from the ground up to fit the setting.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 30, 2024, 05:40:52 PM
For this kind of thing to work well, I think you do need at least a 2-axis breakdown.  However, it will work a whole lot better if you leave some stuff out of that grid, and save if for flavor and/or idiosyncratic exceptions.  Unless of course you are doing something like rytrasmi explained, where part of the point is that it is supposed to all encompassing.

For my own game, after trying several more comprehensive variants of "schools" and "elements" and whatnot, I backed off into one axis being a few "Traditions" and the other a slightly more rigorous (but only slightly) breakdown of "elements" appropriate to the setting mixed with a few oddball categories where "elements" didn't really fit.  I'm trying to leave some room for mystery.

For example, in addition to the elements of "sky", "stone", etc, I've also got "anda" for magic that is pure manipulation at the magical atomic level and "beyond" for those strange extra-planar spells.  Then I started with 3 traditions, and now have 4, with the possibility to add another 1 or 2 going forward without it causing too much disruption.  If some of the traditions cross-over a little and others not so much, that's fine.  Some traditions favor certain elements/oddball categories more than others, but it's not this precise grid thing.

I don't know how well you can do this retrofitting to an existing list of spells, which is why the "schools" never really made much sense if you looked at them closely.  It's more of a framework for writing spells in some coherent fashion from the ground up to fit the setting.

That's fair, maybe I'll use it with my magic system where there's less spells but you can extend them in range, duration, damage and change them in expression:

Fire > Burning Hands > Fire Ball > Flaming Sphere (Where creating/controlling fire is the spell and the others different expresions of the same).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2024, 03:53:05 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 30, 2024, 03:45:31 PM
Neat topic!

Aquelarre has an interesting magic system. It definitely differentiates "what" and "how", and considers "who" as well.

Forms
Invocatio (invocation, summoning)
Maleficium (curse, charm, hex, etc.)
Potio (potions)
Amuletum (amulet, trinket)
Unguentum (ointment, salve)

The forms dictate how the spell must manifest. An amulet must be worn, a salve must be spread onto the body, etc.

Then there is the nature of the magic: white (good, at least by design) and black (evil, goetic). White magic is not accepted by the church, but you're not going to hell. Black magic, on the other hand, you're going to burn in hell if you cast even one of these spells.

Finally there are origins of the spells: folk magic, alchemy, infernal spells, and forbidden magic. These tell you who might know a given spell. A rural witch will practice folk magic, maybe with a side of infernal. A Moorish scholar might practice alchemy. Etc etc.

Oh, it also has components, like herbs, minerals, sperm from a hanged man, you know the basics.

As for D&D, I was given to understand that Conjuration brought forth a being from another plane or realm, while Invocation/Evocation created matter/energy from nothing. Illusion might just affect the target's mind. So they are different but yeah, there's overlap and the classification of a particular spell is somewhat arbitrary. I sometimes use the schools for color, like summoning a monster brings it forth while engaged in some activity on its home plane.

I don't have Aquelarre, sounds like I need it. Both for this and for the White/Black magic divide, since I have wanted that for a while.

It doesn't happen to have Grey magic too does it?

It doesn't have a way to cleanse yourself from the taint of using black magic? Penance and stuff?

The spells are inspired by folklore, stories, and myth, so they are not the typical D&D stuff like fireball. There are some really interesting spells and then some that are so specific, like transferring birthing pain from a woman in labor to someone else.

Using black magic causes you to be damned by god. If you are a priest, you can never again perform any rituals. A non-priest can restore his status with a major penance like a pilgrimage. Using white magic has the same effect except the priest can do the pilgrimage and regain ability to perform rituals. Being damned by god means you need to save vs willpower to enter a church or other sacred place, touch a blessed or sacred object, etc. We have one damned character who we use to test whether a church is actually consecrated. If he vomits violently, it is.

The English edition has some translation problems. Nothing major, just annoyances. I hear the Spanish edition is much clearer but alas I am illiterate in that language.

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 30, 2024, 08:12:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2024, 03:53:05 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 30, 2024, 03:45:31 PM
Neat topic!

Aquelarre has an interesting magic system. It definitely differentiates "what" and "how", and considers "who" as well.

Forms
Invocatio (invocation, summoning)
Maleficium (curse, charm, hex, etc.)
Potio (potions)
Amuletum (amulet, trinket)
Unguentum (ointment, salve)

The forms dictate how the spell must manifest. An amulet must be worn, a salve must be spread onto the body, etc.

Then there is the nature of the magic: white (good, at least by design) and black (evil, goetic). White magic is not accepted by the church, but you're not going to hell. Black magic, on the other hand, you're going to burn in hell if you cast even one of these spells.

Finally there are origins of the spells: folk magic, alchemy, infernal spells, and forbidden magic. These tell you who might know a given spell. A rural witch will practice folk magic, maybe with a side of infernal. A Moorish scholar might practice alchemy. Etc etc.

Oh, it also has components, like herbs, minerals, sperm from a hanged man, you know the basics.

As for D&D, I was given to understand that Conjuration brought forth a being from another plane or realm, while Invocation/Evocation created matter/energy from nothing. Illusion might just affect the target's mind. So they are different but yeah, there's overlap and the classification of a particular spell is somewhat arbitrary. I sometimes use the schools for color, like summoning a monster brings it forth while engaged in some activity on its home plane.

I don't have Aquelarre, sounds like I need it. Both for this and for the White/Black magic divide, since I have wanted that for a while.

It doesn't happen to have Grey magic too does it?

It doesn't have a way to cleanse yourself from the taint of using black magic? Penance and stuff?

The spells are inspired by folklore, stories, and myth, so they are not the typical D&D stuff like fireball. There are some really interesting spells and then some that are so specific, like transferring birthing pain from a woman in labor to someone else.

Using black magic causes you to be damned by god. If you are a priest, you can never again perform any rituals. A non-priest can restore his status with a major penance like a pilgrimage. Using white magic has the same effect except the priest can do the pilgrimage and regain ability to perform rituals. Being damned by god means you need to save vs willpower to enter a church or other sacred place, touch a blessed or sacred object, etc. We have one damned character who we use to test whether a church is actually consecrated. If he vomits violently, it is.

The English edition has some translation problems. Nothing major, just annoyances. I hear the Spanish edition is much clearer but alas I am illiterate in that language.

Lucky me Spanish is my mother tongue. Gonna go buy it.

The spells in 1e AD&D are as much a kitchen sink grab bag as the rest of the system, so not only is there not much rhyme or reason to the schools, there's no unifying principle to how magic works. Most fictional settings don't have anywhere near the number of discrete paradigms of magic as AD&D does.

I've had some interesting games where I limited the setting to a single (or two related) AD&D school. For instance, limiting spellcasters to Enchantment/Charm and Abjuration and calling it Soul Witchery leads to a very different game.  Limiting the setting to Evocation gives you an Avatar: The Last Airbender kind of game.

I recently resolved this problem while attempting to make psionics fit naturally into my 2e-inspired game.  Normally it has a tacked-on feel, so I used Dark Sun as a starting point.  In Dark Sun, there are two fundamental powers: elemental magic and psionics.  Arcane magic was invented by a psionicist and is powered by elemental power stolen from nature.

So in my game there are essentially three ways for a person to get access to magical power:

1) Directly from the gods (sun, moon, planets, etc...)
2) Indirectly from shrines and saints
3) Very indirectly from material components or alchemical substances

Then that power needs to be shaped.  It can be shaped in various ways:

1) By the entity that is giving you the power
2) By using sensible formulae (alchemy)
3) By using a particular psionic power to prepare a spell (vancian magic).  Note that psionics isn't magic, and most psionic powers have nothing to do with magic.

In mine there are three main PC paths to power (and two that are only available to NPCs as their uses robs you of your free will... the antithesis of what a PC should be).

Magery: use words/gestures to activate spells through the Arcane Web (a global cloud of precursor nanotech).

Mechanist: build your own magitech based on arcane principles.

Mystic: bestowed supernatural power by a higher power for some benevolent purpose.

Witchery (NPC): enslave your soul to a demon for supernatural power that must be used for evil (typically out of desire for revenge, spite, jealousy, etc.).

Necromancy (NPC): tear out a piece of your soul and allow Death (in the "final enemy who seeks to consume all" sense vs. the natural cycle sense) to fill the hole, giving you access to the power of Hell's fallen souls (Death will rapidly consume the soul of the host and leave the Necromancer an empty vessel of its endless hunger to consume all the living).

There are then seven different paths for the spellcasters to specialize in (each is modified by their class above);

Abjurer - defensive spells, particularly wards
Benedictor - buffing and healing spells
Empowered- spells focused inward to self-buff
Interdictor - debuffing/control spells
Maledictor - damaging spells
Manifester - creates auras and close spells reflecting aspects of creation.
Summoner - creates or summons entities to act for them.

There's some overlap, any caster could do those things in general; the specialists just do their particular thing better.

@Chris24601

I like that breakdown. It's clean.

In Talislanta 4e, they had something similar. Without getting into the weeds in trying to define where magic comes from, it's mostly inferred. They focus on the nuts and bolts of how PC's/NPC's engage with it.

It's kind of similar to yours. So you had "Schools of Magic" which literally are traditions of spellcasting that is denoted by the name of a family of methods that focus on a particular way of using magic.

So you have:

Cryptomancy: Study of magical runes, sigils, symbols
Elemental Magic: Drawing power from one of the Elemental planes (traditional Water, Earth, Air, Fire).
Invocation: Members of this Order call on supernatural entities for power.
Mysticism: Disciplines that deal with powers of the mind, will and soul.
Natural Magic: Magic concerning animals, plants, and the natural world.
Necromancy: Magic of death, decay, and entropy.
Shamanism: Magic that draws their power from totem-spirits and entities of the Dreamrealms
Witchcraft: Primitive magic that has practices tied to earlier understandings predating the advent of Wizardry.
Wizardry: Magic produced by manipulating the flux of arcane energy that permeates the universe.

There are a couple of others. But each Order (or School if you prefer) has specific advantages, limitation, and Modes in which theyr can work "Magic" - including the creation of magical artifacts.

Here's where the rubber hits the road - Modes.

Modes are specific actions that your magic executes

Alter - Alters attribute and Skill Ratings
Attack - Projects destructive magical energy
Conjure - Produces objects, materials, or elemental substances
Defend - Protects against damage (magical or mundane)
Heal - Repairs damage to living beings or objects
Illusion - Controls the thoughts and emotions of others.
Move - Affects all types of motion including flight, levitation, and telekinesis
Reveal - Enhances awareness, including scrying and divination
Summon - Transports creatures from other planes of existence
Transform - Turns on thing into another
Ward - Provides immunity to diseases, poison, the environment, mind-control or any other discrete status.

So each Order has its own benefits and penalties, and discrete Modes that they can use (including bonuses and penalties to use those Modes). Not all Modes are available to every Order either. The mechanic is that each of the twelve modes has a baseline template, for instance:

Attack
Damage: 1 Hit Point per spell level
Range: 50-feet (-1 to casting roll per extra 10-ft of range)
Duration: Instant/1-rd per level (no range)
Area: -1 to casting roll per foot of radius.

In Talislanta the caster decides when they cast *how* powerful (what level) they cast their spells at. And it's a skill check. So you can ramp up/down based on how lucky/skilled you are. Spellfailure is *bad*. But what this translates to is a very interesting nod to Vancian magic in a roundabout way. Most players will write up their default "spell" - much like "Melfs Acid Arrow", but tune it to their baseline on their spell list and give it the trappings in accordance with their Order.

Between the 12-Modes and Order it's a very sophisticated spellcasting system that scales insanely high (if you're a good spellcaster skillwise). This mechanic can *easily* be tweaked to replace the Vancian magic of D&D as long as you establish your setting's Orders accordingly.

The mechanic of Talislanta is your stat (which is -5 to +5 with 0 being 'average') plus skill roll d20. 11+ is success, 6-10 is partial success. 1-5 is failure. 20+ is Critical success. -1 or lower is Critical Failure. It's THAT easy.

Nothing prevents you from creating new orders and new spell effects. Spells are effectively just figuring out what the base spellcasting modifier for your Mode's effect. Your Order modifies your Mode.

For example - the Order of Wizardry does not get "Transform" or "Summon" Modes. But they get all the rest and their bonus is they can choose one single Mode and get +3 too all rolls in that mode.

Necromancers - are banned from Illusion and Conjure. But they get +2 to Summon and +3 to Heal.

An example of a Necromancer spell:

Ebon Armor (Alter)
Duration: 2 Minutes
Range: Self or Touch
Casting Modifiers: -10 (9th level, -1 for extra duration)
Description: This incantation causes the necromancer's shadow to expand, solidify, and envelop him in a fearsome looking suit of black armor. The armor has a PR of 3 but is weightless. NPCs suffer a -3 to their morale when facing a foe in Ebon Armor.


So it's a system that embraces Schools of Magic, Methods of casting, in-game setting specific color (Orders) and has an obvious D&D nod to allowing PC's to have their own spells unique to their characters. Nothing prevents you from creating your own spells as long as you use the Modes and Order system.