Quote from: S'mon on May 08, 2023, 12:27:23 PM
Jedi are just a myth. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion does you no credit! *akh*

Hahaha!

nerve gas.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 09, 2023, 08:15:41 AMnerve gas.

This was tried on Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn in The Phantom Menace... they just did a magic breath hold.. The editing in that film is so terrible it looks like they open the door instantly, but I suspect that is an editor snafu. I assume they held it shut a decent amount of time.

This is the problem with modern star wars, (by modern I mean Jedi+). Jedi are just full on wizards now and are bound by nothing. They used to be Samurai with some subtle powers.. but now they can basically do anything.

That is the problem with "Whatever the plot says". As after a while of people adding to things, with some being less skilled writers than others, it just blows out into the unwatchable shit show it is now.

Still, canonically.... Nerve Gas shouldn't't work... as we have seen that not work in film and it was even a Lucas film.. so pretty hard to argue it is not "true".

<deleted>
double post for some reason

Acid spray. Stormtrooper armour could be treated (they'd be yellow or blue or whatever, not white) to be immune and just hose the jedi down with acid that melts their skin and bones into a sludge.

Some kind of sonic attack that deafens (and Stormtroopers could have ear defenders in their otherwise useless helmets).

Fly a speeder overhead and drop dozens of thermal detonators on the site then pick through the remains when it's all cooled down. Jedi might dodge one but not all.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 09, 2023, 08:26:23 AM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 09, 2023, 08:15:41 AMnerve gas.

This was tried on Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn in The Phantom Menace... they just did a magic breath hold.. The editing in that film is so terrible it looks like they open the door instantly, but I suspect that is an editor snafu. I assume they held it shut a decent amount of time.

This is the problem with modern star wars, (by modern I mean Jedi+). Jedi are just full on wizards now and are bound by nothing. They used to be Samurai with some subtle powers.. but now they can basically do anything....

Still, canonically.... Nerve Gas shouldn't't work... as we have seen that not work in film and it was even a Lucas film.. so pretty hard to argue it is not "true".

Do you have to breathe nerve gas in to be be hurt by it? I'm not an expert on war crimes, but I thought there were some kinds you could absorb through the skin.

Generally, you hit on the same kind of thing I was thinking: It depends on what iteration of the Force the game is replicating and what the rules are for it.

Based on what we see in the OT, you could come to the conclusion that against anything other than blasters or melee weapons, Jedi aren't any more resilient than anyone else. The Prequels turned up the superhero factor a bit, especially in the athletics and precognition departments. It's been ages since I touched anything associated with the EU, but I get the impression it suffered from pretty egregious power creep.

I would assume that anyone writing a Star Wars roleplaying game would want to de-power the Jedi down to a roughly OT level, in order to provide some semblance of game balance. If that's the case, the OT implies that effective use of the Force requires a significant degree of focus and/or peace of mind. I'd attack that. Maybe you could use cacophonous noises, strobing lights, hallucinogens, etc, or something like the Scarecrow's fear toxin. Anything that disturbs the Jedi's mental or emotional balance and interferes with their ability to connect with the Force. You could force concentration checks on your Jedi players to retain the use of their abilities. That seems like it would be more interesting than just an "anti-Force" zone, while still being a nerf which specifically affects your Jedi players while giving your non-Jedi a chance to shine.

I'm pretty sure man-portable nuclear devices (or the equivalent) is the answer.  You just need one Stormtrooper to live long enough to trigger a device with enough power to devastate everything within a sufficient radius to ensure no Jedi could possibly escape.  Unless they've developed force teleportation since last time I paid attention to Star Wars... 

I mean, in the OT Jedi weren't "samurai with tricks".  Vader, a fallen Jedi in all versions (even when his first name was Darth), was always very powerful, and it was the second movie where he just catches blaster bolts and then grabs the blaster from across the room.  Sure, he's one of the most powerful Jedi ever, but, Jedi have always been able to be full wizards if they are exceptional.

This is why almost no weapon trick would work.  There's no rule saying a Jedi can block a blaster with their hand because it's a blaster, or plasma works that way.  Rocket launcher?  A million rocks?  Pellet gun?  Laser?  No reason to assume a Jedi can't stop any of those things.  If you enumerate a bunch of powers in the back of a handbook and make them pick, sure, you can metagame and choose some attack they don't have a defense for, or simply choose an attack they don't all train in because it's rare (no one expects the cortosis boomerang dipped in ysalamir butthole secretions).

But that's not a good way to design a game, and it's not a good treatment of Jedi.

When Jedi are killed or in great danger due to a physical attack, it's because they either are attacked with incredible force, incredible skills, or incredible numbers.  We have no reason to believe a Jedi could stop the death star's laser, even though a hand laser pointed at them by some guy would be no threat.  It's too much power.  We see Jedi taken out by dark side opponents, sometimes 1v1, because they are outskilled (especially a problem for the many Jedi who aren't warriors in the first place and might be ok against a mugger but are totally outclassed against some bloody-blade-licking demon-headed stereotype).  And of course, we see them taken out by large numbers- clone troopers and even enough retarded roger-rogerbots can kill them.

I think if the idea is "how do we handle them" from an R&D perspective, the goal is going to be to come up with some plausible training regime or weapon that grants an advantage in some way.  That's why I suggested the bit about the small squad with their weapon types obscured at the beginning of the fight, who are trained in some kind of no-mind technique or whatever.  If your system has hit points and the Jedi's defenses are modeled by being difficult to hit (a high AC or high target number on a skill check), then this would grant a plus against such a defense.  If it's modeled by the attacker having to pass a percentile check to have a chance of hitting at all, then the percentile check would be higher.  If it's modeled by the Jedi themselves rolling against a target number based on the skill of the attacker, then you just increase that value.  Finally, if it's something where the Jedi spends a resource to have a guaranteed amount of ability to ignore attacks, you increase the resource cost of that in some fashion.

What you definitely should not do is engage in rock-paper-scissors.  The Jedi aren't Mewtwo, hoping that no one invents Tyrannitar or whatever, they don't have hard counters or anti-magic fields (said collectable lizards aside, that was a bad part of an otherwise good series, required by the writer to allow for a non force user to be a threat).  You can add all these things (and at various points they have showed up!), but that misses the point.

Quote from: rkhigdon on May 09, 2023, 01:13:36 PM
Unless they've developed force teleportation since last time I paid attention to Star Wars...

Create Force Storms, page 72, Dark Empire Sourcebook WEG 1993

Quote from: Venka on May 09, 2023, 01:32:10 PM
This is why almost no weapon trick would work.

And yet. We See Jedi unable to block Stun blasters. Avoid physical projectiles (slug throwers, rockets, darts, etc) and avoid spray weapons (such as flame throwers) rather then trying to block them. The idea that Jedi can block everything with a saber or any other part of their body is absurd. Hell, there's media where a Jedi tried to block a turbo laser only to be blasted apart.

I think it's fair to say that there's a lack of evidence that Jedi CAN block any form of weapon. Just as there's a significant amount of evidence of Jedi avoiding multiple kinds of weapons using other forces powers such as their insane mobility or in the case of slower moving objects, stopping them with the force.

This all said. I do think one could assume that a powerful Jedi could make something of a near barrier to block some objects. Afterall, we've seen similar feats with collapsing rubble being stopped. But it's the case of we've always seen such situations where the Jedi is having to concentrate heavily and even powerful Jedi struggle with this. Multiple dudes firing machine guns at different angles is alot more to focus on then just right above you.

So yea. I think there's a clear precedent that Jedi are unable to block everything that comes at them. Espically unarmed.


That said. I agree with your premise about "it shouldn't be a game of rock paper scissors" as I agree that makes things less fun. it's why I specifically mentioned how we see Jedi handle weapons they cannot block. They dodge and approach the situation differently. Even a basic Jedi can promptly just lift up some heavy cover and promptly yeet it at the flame thrower guy(s) and bam. They are no longer in fear of being torched.

But just having something that goes "lmao. You dead" isn't fun. And I do agree with that sentiment.

To awnser the post question staring with gizmos and do hikies. Microwave weapons or Sonic weapons. They are up their with the experimental tech the empire sometimes makes to deal with specific problems (Mandos, Jedi... Annoying native species). You even have an entire world and technology that made one such useful weapon, the Geonosians. Less high tech but still fairly useful,  Carbonite weapons or foam weapons. You are forcing the Jedi to dodge these weapons and thus can herd them to a better location and if you get a solid hit on them. Great. Flame throwers and chemical guns fall under a similar area as well.

As for tactics. Sword and Board. Just with a shield and blaster instead. Slowly advance and shoot with your blasters. You have shields. Why be afraid?  Only issue is the Jedi will probably charge you, so you'd need and awnser to that. Which is where ectro weapons and vibro weapons come into play. Mixed with better training and you can have squads of specialist using fairly easy to get imperial equipment that can give the average Jedi some trouble.

As for actual research. Capturing Jedi alive and finding out why they can use the force would probably be my go to project. Because if one can understand the force, figure out how it's manipulated. Then one may be able to do some serious damage. Mind you, this is a theme that pops up alot in the various star wars stories.

Quote from: Kahoona on May 09, 2023, 11:02:58 PMAs for actual research. Capturing Jedi alive and finding out why they can use the force would probably be my go to project. Because if one can understand the force, figure out how it's manipulated. Then one may be able to do some serious damage. Mind you, this is a theme that pops up alot in the various star wars stories.

This is one of the things I hate in modern fantasy. The attempt to make everything so dull and mundane. No the force isn't a mystical and spiritual power, it is a bunch of microscopic life forms living in your blood. Vampires are not magical curses that damn your soul, they are a blood diseases you can treat with medicine. Zombies are just a virus. So boring.

The force used to be like a cross between Samurai and Wuxia. As in, it was a mystical power that came from enlightenment. No more able to be studied than someone's belief in God. No. The force isn't an ethereal connection between all living things that surrounds us and penetrates us, binding the galaxy together. One that a monk can attune himself to through discipline and study of self.. it is actually a bunch of microscopic aliens in your blood that cause immaculate conceptions, can be isolated in test tubes and injected into clone troopers, and instead of being a subtle extension of will it is a fucking wizard throwing out the "magic can do anything" crap.

Star Wars used to be awesome. Instead, the force is this and the empire lasted 23 years. What a mess.

Quote from: Kahoona on May 09, 2023, 11:02:58 PMMicrowave weapons or Sonic weapons.

This is a good one. Some kind of radiation weapon. Can't be deflected. Can move through solid matter. Seems like a pretty strong idea to kill a space wizard... I guess it would depend on how quick the lethality is. We know from the prequels, they can "force run" now.. so unless they die superfast the shooter will probably die. Though maybe they only need to be tainted. Medical Science is pretty inconsistent in Star Wars, I mean Padmé dies from "loosing the will to live"... might be possible to do so muchy raidtion damage they can not be healed in that tube thing.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 09, 2023, 11:07:04 AMDo you have to breathe nerve gas in to be be hurt by it? I'm not an expert on war crimes, but I thought there were some kinds you could absorb through the skin.

Yeah. You are right.

I am not a weapons expert but I have seen Nick Cage in "The Rock" a bunch of times, and he does an entire speech about how Sarin Gas is absorbed through the skin....

Freeze the Jedi bank accounts. Phantom Menace taught us that the Jedi don't know shit about money. In fact, a good chunk of that film was the direct result of Obiwan and Chee-gong being broke-ass drifters. Put the clamp down on their finances and the Jedi will be stuck bartering for everything. Eventually the merchants, debt collectors, and pissed-off prostitutes will do the dirty work for you.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 09, 2023, 08:26:23 AM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 09, 2023, 08:15:41 AMnerve gas.

This was tried on Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn in The Phantom Menace... they just did a magic breath hold.. The editing in that film is so terrible it looks like they open the door instantly, but I suspect that is an editor snafu. I assume they held it shut a decent amount of time.

This is the problem with modern star wars, (by modern I mean Jedi+). Jedi are just full on wizards now and are bound by nothing. They used to be Samurai with some subtle powers.. but now they can basically do anything.

That is the problem with "Whatever the plot says". As after a while of people adding to things, with some being less skilled writers than others, it just blows out into the unwatchable shit show it is now.

Still, canonically.... Nerve Gas shouldn't't work... as we have seen that not work in film and it was even a Lucas film.. so pretty hard to argue it is not "true".

Lucas did power up the Jedi in the prequels. There's the scene where Dooku approaches Obi-Wan and Anakin when they're rescuing the Chancellor, and Dooku does a super-flip over the railing. In the OT, he would have just walked down the goddamn stairs. I'm like, well, Jedi are super duper and can do anything and flip and jump everywhere. Maybe there really is no defense against Jedi. Send in an orbital bombardment, and they'll just yank the ship out of orbit.

Give up guys. Jedi are unbeatable.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 09, 2023, 11:53:22 PM

Quote from: Kahoona on May 09, 2023, 11:02:58 PMAs for actual research. Capturing Jedi alive and finding out why they can use the force would probably be my go to project. Because if one can understand the force, figure out how it's manipulated. Then one may be able to do some serious damage. Mind you, this is a theme that pops up alot in the various star wars stories.

This is one of the things I hate in modern fantasy. The attempt to make everything so dull and mundane. No the force isn't a mystical and spiritual power, it is a bunch of microscopic life forms living in your blood. Vampires are not magical curses that damn your soul, they are a blood diseases you can treat with medicine. Zombies are just a virus. So boring.

Eh. I think you can pull it off right. Let's go with what you are saying, that Jedi are space wizards and that the Force is a mystical force controlled by maybe something, maybe nothing. Left up to interpretation.

Now que evil science man trying to figure this shit out. Because in our universe of laws and science their must be a rational reason for why one person can use the force over another. Otherwise... It would simply be madness.

You can maintain the mystic and spirituality of the Force and the Jedi while at the same time having a character obsessed with breaking it down into mathematics. You can make a really compelling story with this simple concept in fact. You have an obsessive villian who is going to further and further extremes to understand something they cannot comprehend and/or see because they are not compatible (assuming we are going the old full out spiritual rout of the force). Maybe this science person does figure something out and uses it to their advantage. Maybe they are unable to make any real progress and fail again and again resulting in further drastic means to uncover the truth.

Regardless of the decision made. You can have a wild story on your hands and you can go with a "the force is a measurable power within the galaxy that follows tangible rules" or "the force is a Mystic power that connects the galaxy in a level of harmony more akin to fate then a rule of science".

Quote from: Summon666 on May 09, 2023, 11:53:22 PM

Quote from: Kahoona on May 09, 2023, 11:02:58 PMMicrowave weapons or Sonic weapons.

This is a good one. Some kind of radiation weapon. Can't be deflected. Can move through solid matter. Seems like a pretty strong idea to kill a space wizard... I guess it would depend on how quick the lethality is. We know from the prequels, they can "force run" now.. so unless they die superfast the shooter will probably die. Though maybe they only need to be tainted. Medical Science is pretty inconsistent in Star Wars, I mean Padmé dies from "loosing the will to live"... might be possible to do so muchy raidtion damage they can not be healed in that tube thing.

I'd imagine unless it was a *very* powerful weapon you'd need to hit a Jedi multiple times to bring them down. But that all depends on what kind of tech exists to make something like this, I still reckon however that a Jedi in a 1v1 would come out on top against a hand held one of these everytime.