Swords & Wizardry is a retro-clone of OD&D. It's free and you can choose either the snazy Core Rules or the wicked rawness of the White Box rules. While not a word by word clone (for legal reasons), it certainly grabs the spirit of OD&D with a few doodads of its own.
//www.swordsandwizardry.com
The mechanic I find most useful during play is how S&W does Saving Throws. If you played Basic or AD&D, you remember the separate Save vs. Poison, Save vs. Magic, Save vs. Mother-In-Law, etc. This number was fixed and you either Saved or Not by rolling that target number...with occasional modifiers by the DM.
S&W uses a single Saving Throw number. At first level, a Cleric has 14, a Fighter has 16 and a Magic-User has 15. Each class gains a bonus against specifics, such as Clerics get +2 vs. Death and Mages get +2 vs. Magic. This base number decreases as you gain levels.
The Saving Throw mechanic gets most interesting when you extrapolate it beyond just the traditional concepts of "Roll High or Die" and use it as Target Number for whatever actions the character may do. AKA, if you want a STR roll, the player can roll D20 + STR bonus vs. their Saving Throw, and you can do the same for INT, CHA, etc.
At first, this was a tad jarring because why would a Magic-User do better at a STR save than a Fighter if they have equal STR bonuses?
The answer is Magic.
Watch this. In OD&D, your Mage gets very few spells. However, in the view of the Saving Throw, your Mage is casting "cantrips" all the time, for whatever they may be doing. That's how the Mage gets +1 beyond the Fighter.
As for the Cleric, the extrapolation becomes easier. Clerics are divine vessels of their god so +2 beyond a Fighter makes sense. Clerics walk around protected by their faith and bolster each action with chants and prayers.
The key is to encourage players to use this "extrapolation" in their roleplay, so mages feel more magical and clerics feel more divinely powered. Kudos to Mythmere for this interesting and far-reaching mechanic!
PS: I have also considered a house rule where characters get a +3 bonus to any Save based on their Prime. AKA, fighters get +3 to STR saves.
My approach is to allow a PC their attribute bonus either to general tasks, or to things their background says they're good at.
So, a cleric probably wouldn't get a DEX bonus for moving silently, but a F-M described as a rogue would.
Similarly, a F-M described as a combat brute would get a STR bonus to fighting manoeuvres and combat-related activities.
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Quote from: Spinachcat;306473Each class gains a bonus against specifics, such as Clerics get +2 vs. Death and Mages get +2 vs. Magic.
Is this in the core rules? I can't find it.
check out this thread (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1143) over at the S&W forums, also.
I also dig (altho not a retro-clone) how Magpie (http://magpie.pauljessup.com/codex/) handles "Feats of..." as opposed to saving throws. Basically, every attribute has a modifier (+1 for each point over 12, -1 for each below 9, iirc..) then you have like "Feats of Agility" which is composed of your WIS + DEX + LUCK vs. a Difficulty Rating (Level 0 is 5+, Level 1 is 10+, etc.) The Luck stat gives either a +1 or -1.
I think a lot of purists would argue that this all hurtling towards skills/feats/whatever, but i'm not one of those people. i've never been one to play by all the rules as-written anyway, and actually enjoy house rules.
Quote from: Spinachcat;306473...
The Saving Throw mechanic gets most interesting when you extrapolate it beyond just the traditional concepts of "Roll High or Die" and use it as Target Number for whatever actions the character may do....
I developed this idea in my article in the second issue of
Knockspell.
Here is the relevant excerpt:
QuoteSaving Throws as a General Task Resolution System
All classes in S&W have a single saving throw that may be used as a general 'task resolution' mechanism. Under this system, when attempting a particular task, the player rolls 1d20, applies any relevant attribute modifiers (a bonus of +1, a penalty of -1, or no modifier, depending on the attribute score), and any additional modifiers that the GM judges appropriate. Very easy, but not automatically successful, tasks might receive a bonus of +10, while extremely difficult, but not impossible, tasks might receive a penalty of -10. Less extreme modifiers should apply to rolls involving tasks of intermediate ease or difficulty. The difficulty modifier is applied to the character's saving throw roll. (It is up to the GM to determine whether the player has knowledge of this modifier.) If the modified roll equals or exceeds the character's saving throw number, the task is successful. An unmodified roll of a 20 always indicates success, and an unmodified roll of a 1 always indicates failure (otherwise, there is no point in making the roll in the first place, and the GM should simply decide that the character automatically succeeds or fails).
For example, Nibold the Purple, a bold roguish warrior, is attempting to swim across a dangerous rushing river. Because Nibold is a fifth level fighter, his base saving throw number is 12. The GM judges that superior strength would assist anyone attempting such a feat, and thus allows the player to apply Nibold's strength bonus, in this case +1, to the roll. Because the river is flowing swiftly, and contains dangerous rocks and currents, the GM assigns a -2 penalty to the player's roll. Finally, the GM notes that Nibold's background is that of a sailor, and therefore grants the character a +4 bonus to the roll. This leaves the player with a net +3 bonus to his roll for Nibold. The player rolls a 10 and adds 3 for a total of 13. Since that exceeds Nibold's saving throw number of 12, Nibold successfully swims across the river. If the player had failed his roll, the GM may have decided that Nibold suffered 1d6 points of damage from being bashed about the rocks by the stream's strong currents. A roll of a natural 1 may have resulted in Nibold being knocked unconscious, and likely drowning to death, unless rescued by his compatriots (assuming that he has some nearby!).
Finally, GMs should always exercise discretion when using this system. It should not replace common sense or player creativity. If the task in question is one that any normal human being would typically succeed at accomplishing, then a roll should be unnecessary. Avoid having players roll to determine if their characters can climb a ladder, jump across a three foot crevice, or swim across a calm pond. Moreover, if a player comes up with an ingenious plan to overcome some difficulty or challenge, the GM may want to reward that player by allowing the plan to succeed without a roll, or, if the GM thinks that the plan is risky enough to require a roll, with a positive modifier. Interesting and daring plans make the game more exciting for everyone, and thus generally should be rewarded by GMs. (Foolish plans, on the other hand, are rightfully mocked!)
I then developed a version of the 'thief' for S&W that uses this system. :ninja:
Quote from: Akrasia;306637I developed this idea in my article in the second issue of Knockspell.
*SNIP*
I then developed a version of the 'thief' for S&W that uses this system. :ninja:
Yes, keep up the great work, Akrasia! I'm looking forward to your next contributions to KS, or S&W in general!
Quote from: kregmosier;306643Yes, keep up the great work, Akrasia! I'm looking forward to your next contributions to KS, or S&W in general!
Hey thanks! :) I have an article on 'background professions' in the new issue of
Fight On!.
Right now I'm working on a rather massive article for reworking S&W in order to resemble more closely classic 'swords & sorcery' tales.
Quote from: Akrasia;306649Hey thanks! :) I have an article on 'background professions' in the new issue of Fight On!.
Right now I'm working on a rather massive article for reworking S&W in order to resemble more closely classic 'swords & sorcery' tales.
right on! i ported the AD&D secondary skills over, and adjusted for the setting, but i can't wait to see what you come up with.
oh, and i read the first draft bits you posted @ the S&W forum for the gritty classic s&w and can't wait for that, either!
I think I still prefer the method of rolling under your related stat when it comes to "doing various tasks that may or may not succeed." Then I don't have to make silly (sorry, but I think it's silly) excuses for why the mage is better at doing everything; how good you are at doing something depends on how high you are in the related stat. Another nice thing is that you don't have to add anything to the game, it's already there.
Quote from: islan;306657I think I still prefer the method of rolling under your related stat when it comes to "doing various tasks that may or may not succeed." Then I don't have to make silly (sorry, but I think it's silly) excuses for why the mage is better at doing everything; how good you are at doing something depends on how high you are in the related stat. Another nice thing is that you don't have to add anything to the game, it's already there.
With the saving throw system you're not really 'adding anything' to the game. Saving throws are
already in the game. You're just extending the range of things that you're using them for. Also, ability scores still affect success probabilities, as you apply the relevant modifiers to your rolls.
I have no problem with the 'roll under' ability score system, however, and used it in the past. In fact, it is one of the ways to use the 'background professions' that I provide in my FO! article.
One feature of the saving throw system is that a character's saving throws improve with experience, whereas this is not the case with ability scores. Some people like the idea that their characters become more skilled over time. It's just a matter of taste, I suppose.
I agree that the different ability score rates do make things a bit 'wonky' -- clerics have the best saves, whereas fighters have the worst. Spinachcat's rationale might help with that. For some reason, though, it's a minor bug that doesn't really bother me much.
I also note that my copy of RC also seems to make use of Saving Throws outside of their normal uses, particularly with the Weapon Mastery tables. It was an interesting twist from what I was used to that rather appealed to me as well. I think I'm still a little unsure as to how I should use it, though.
When it comes to Ability checks, I figure it is something anyone can be good at, which also makes 1st level characters more competent (they are just as good at pushing something heavy or making conversation as a high-level adventurer). But when it comes to Saving Throws, the situation must be specific enough to suggest "experience matters".
Thinking on it, I believe I would most often use Ability checks for when the PC's are actively doing something, and Saving Throws for when they are defending against something. Hmm...
Quote from: islan;306670I also note that my copy of RC also seems to make use of Saving Throws outside of their normal uses, particularly with the Weapon Mastery tables. It was an interesting twist from what I was used to that rather appealed to me as well. I think I'm still a little unsure as to how I should use it, though.
I believe that the idea was first used in T&T (circa 1976). I've never played T&T myself, but I've been told that my system if similar to the one in T&T.
Quote from: islan;306670When it comes to Ability checks, I figure it is something anyone can be good at, which also makes 1st level characters more competent (they are just as good at pushing something heavy or making conversation as a high-level adventurer)...
That's something I've thought about as well. However, since my version of the 'thief' is tied to the saving throw system for his special 'thief' abilities, and I think that it is important for thieves to improve with experience, I have found it easiest to stick with the saving throw system as my 'universal resolution mechanic', so to speak. It's easier for players to have only one system as well. (Not that the ability score check system is difficult at all, but the fewer moving pieces the better IME.)
Quote from: Garnfellow;306590Is this in the core rules? I can't find it.
White Box rules under the class abilities.
Quote from: islan;306657I think I still prefer the method of rolling under your related stat when it comes to "doing various tasks that may or may not succeed."
Very understandable. Roll under was always my go-to pre-D20 and I do like how it makes stats matter. However, I find the "roll high all the time" focus really resonates with gamers. I have done the 21-Stat = TN which works as well, aka STR 15 has to roll 6+ to succeed.
The S&W mechanic also make the Saving Throw into a class feature that weighs into class balance.
Quote from: Akrasia;306676I believe that the idea was first used in T&T (circa 1976). I've never played T&T myself, but I've been told that my system if similar to the one in T&T.
T&T is the overlooked gem of Old School gaming. Snag yourself a used copy of the 5th edition rules or the newish 5.5 edition. Seriously kewl stuff.
Quote from: Spinachcat;306704White Box rules under the class abilities.
Weird -- I guess I didn't understand the difference between the core rules and the white box. I thought the white box was just a more stripped down than the core rules. I guess there are actually some additions along with the subtractions?
But that said, I like the class-based differences.
I express the S&W saving throws as bonuses, as in 3e (just 20 - saving throw). The save DC is always 20. So a 1st level fighter would have a saving throw of +4 (+5 vs. death or poison). For whatever reason I find it easier to manage that way.
Quote from: Garnfellow;306723Weird -- I guess I didn't understand the difference between the core rules and the white box.
White Box is definitely worth a read.
Quote from: Garnfellow;306723So a 1st level fighter would have a saving throw of +4 (+5 vs. death or poison).
That's a good method too.
If FtA! we do everything with "Passive" checks and "Active" checks. It kind of works out to be the same, you get a bonus to these two based on class and level, and to "save" against some kind of a difficulty you'd check one or the other plus your attribute bonus (and sometimes plus a skill or misc bonus) vs. a fixed DC.
RPGPundit
Is this Save mechanic the same one that's described on pg. 15 of S&W, or is the White Box one somehow different?
Quote from: Sigmund;306884Is this Save mechanic the same one that's described on pg. 15 of S&W, or is the White Box one somehow different?
They're the same thing. Only the WB has the special (optional) class-based modifiers (e.g., magic-users gain a +2 versus magic). But both core and WB use the same saving throw system (and so my house rule, posted earlier, can be used with either version).
Quote from: Akrasia;306927They're the same thing. Only the WB has the special (optional) class-based modifiers (e.g., magic-users gain a +2 versus magic). But both core and WB use the same saving throw system (and so my house rule, posted earlier, can be used with either version).
Ah, I see. Ok, that's not so bad, although it's still kinda jarring for the White Box version to include something the "more expanded" version doesn't, but certainly not a deal breaker. Is the White Box version available from Lulu yet? I'd really like to get a print version.
Quote from: Sigmund;306954Ah, I see. Ok, that's not so bad, although it's still kinda jarring for the White Box version to include something the "more expanded" version doesn't, but certainly not a deal breaker. Is the White Box version available from Lulu yet? I'd really like to get a print version.
Yeah, it's available in print from Lulu. And, of course, the PDF is free.
Quote from: Akrasia;306972Yeah, it's available in print from Lulu. And, of course, the PDF is free.
Got the pdf already, I just like having at least the main rulebook in print form. Have S&W already, will have to order White Box :) Good stuff.
Quote from: Akrasia;306676I believe that the idea was first used in T&T (circa 1976). I've never played T&T myself, but I've been told that my system if similar to the one in T&T.
T&T is 2d6, doubles roll over and add, for a target number to roll over of
(15 + (5 * SaveLevel) - RelevantStat).
Lv = TN
1 = 20 - stat
2 = 25 - stat
3 = 30 - stat
4 = 35 - stat
etc
Quote from: Spinachcat;306704T&T is the overlooked gem of Old School gaming. Snag yourself a used copy of the 5th edition rules or the newish 5.5 edition. Seriously kewl stuff.
5.5 is 5.0 plus an extra 16pp literally tacked on to the end. It includes an unaltered (not even errata applied) 5.0 rulebook.
T&T 7 is functionally very much the same feel in play. It has better advancement rules, and character level is more accurate a balance factor, plus several more classes, but still uses the same combat and saving mechanics, and still lets you raise attributes.
In any case, find the old Sorcerer's Aprentice article providing Cleric rules if you want T&T clerics; T&T has none in any edition.
WhiteBox definitely has some stuff that the Core Rules don't. Since I don't play WhiteBox (actually, I do now, but didn't when I started the project), I got Marv Breig to adapt the already-written Core Rules into a true version of the original white box. He both added and subtracted in order to get something that really reflected what the game's all about when you're playing without the supplements. So the WhiteBox isn't just a stripped-out version of the Core Rules; it reflects some very distinct design features of its own.
Finarvyn wanted the saving throw system to reflect more class-based differences, and used class bonuses for certain categories. I, on the other hand, didn't want to add another modifier to a saving throw roll - I figured the referee would do that by himself, when necessary. So the Core Rules don't have class modifiers (I hate adding a string of numbers together when calculating a die roll - it slows things down).
Quote from: Mythmere;307391WhiteBox definitely has some stuff that the Core Rules don't. Since I don't play WhiteBox (actually, I do now, but didn't when I started the project), I got Marv Breig to adapt the already-written Core Rules into a true version of the original white box. He both added and subtracted in order to get something that really reflected what the game's all about when you're playing without the supplements. So the WhiteBox isn't just a stripped-out version of the Core Rules; it reflects some very distinct design features of its own.
Finarvyn wanted the saving throw system to reflect more class-based differences, and used class bonuses for certain categories. I, on the other hand, didn't want to add another modifier to a saving throw roll - I figured the referee would do that by himself, when necessary. So the Core Rules don't have class modifiers (I hate adding a string of numbers together when calculating a die roll - it slows things down).
This is why I ordered White Box and should have it in my hot little hands by next week :) Yay, very much looking forward to it. Don't mind at all, just suffered from a misunderstanding of what the two are in relation to each other. Plus, while it's certainly not always true with rules, when it comes to game books, more is better ;)