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In my quest to read and master every Tabletop system ever written, I have read Savage Worlds (The latest edition however its called).

I came away pretty impressed. Its rules-light, but rules breadth. Simple looking, without necessarily feeling too-light.
I was thinking about using it to run a Exalted/Godbound/Spelljammer inspired campaign, and I was curious whats its pros/cons are and what side materials I should get.

I wouldn't recommend it for Godbound. You will need the Superpowers Companion, which works fine but it's a fairly different game and I would really wait for the SWADE update.

Now Spelljammer could be fine (not too familiar with Spelljammer). You might want the Sci-fi Companion (which works fine with the current edition). It depends on how much future tech you want. Savage Rifts is updated to the current edition and blends tech and magic in a high powered fashion.

Savage Worlds (SWADE) shines best at the action hero power level. Better than mere mortals but below demi-gods. That's a lot of wiggle room in there, but I recommend running just the core book for at least some one shots to get a feel for the system. A campaign would be good, but is not a needed step (the core book alone covers a lot of concepts). Veteran Savage Worlds groups will splice another book or two per campaign to change things up (which gives the system a longer lifespan for crush hungry groups that need to be excited about characters options).

Although the game is traditional it runs differently than D&D or OSR. For example, there is no "burn downs" for bosses. A big bad in an empty room is a frustrating encounter. You need think of what would look cool in a movie and that will be more fun to play. This will take time to get used too.

I wouldn't recommend it for Godbound. You will need the Superpowers Companion, which works fine but it's a fairly different game and I would really wait for the SWADE update.

Now Spelljammer could be fine (not too familiar with Spelljammer). You might want the Sci-fi Companion (which works fine with the current edition). It depends on how much future tech you want. Savage Rifts is updated to the current edition and blends tech and magic in a high powered fashion.

Savage Worlds (SWADE) shines best at the action hero power level. Better than mere mortals but below demi-gods. That's a lot of wiggle room in there, but I recommend running just the core book for at least some one shots to get a feel for the system. A campaign would be good, but is not a needed step (the core book alone covers a lot of concepts). Veteran Savage Worlds groups will splice another book or two per campaign to change things up (which gives the system a longer lifespan for crunch hungry groups that need to be excited about characters options).

Although the game is traditional it runs differently than D&D or OSR. For example, there is no "burn downs" for bosses. A big bad in an empty room is a frustrating encounter. You need think of what would look cool in a movie and that will be more fun to play. This will take time to get used too.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1115863Although the game is traditional it runs differently than D&D or OSR. For example, there is no "burn downs" for bosses. A big bad in an empty room is a frustrating encounter. You need think of what would look cool in a movie and that will be more fun to play. This will take time to get used too.

Not sure what "Burn down for boss" means.

Pros: It's based on a miniatures game so that it'll run smoothly and fast.

Cons: It's based on such a miniatures game that it'll frustrate your players when they'll either do nothing to tough enemies, or blast them to bits with exploding dice.

Quote from: Moracai;1115866Cons: It's based on such a miniatures game that it'll frustrate your players when they'll either do nothing to tough enemies, or blast them to bits with exploding dice.

Yeah, the exploding dice concerned me.

Is there anything like Savage Worlds that works of a beautiful bell curve?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1115865Not sure what "Burn down for boss" means.

Burn downs are where everyone does damage the same way round to round until the boss is dead and hope for decent odds. Players are use to playing this way and GMs learn to run monsters this way from other systems. This isn't how Savage Worlds is supposed to run. Your environment should be more interesting.

You have to set up big hits in creative ways for bosses (or set them on fire).

Savage Worlds sort'of has been curves since you take the best of two die rolls, but no if you love beautiful math or d20 distribution then the arcane statistics behind Savage Worlds math will not be fun. You have to do series math to estimate damage because of exploding damage die.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1115883love beautiful math or d20 distribution

Ha! What d20 distribution?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1115858curious whats its pros/cons are and what side materials I should get.

The GM needs to know you're not actually intended to run it just by throwing the core book on the table and telling your players to make characters for a certain campaign.  You're intended to take inappropriate Edges out, come up with custom Professional Edges, consider some of the optional rules as dials to get the feel you want, and come up with a setting document if you want it to feel like what you're trying to run.  I once saw a new GM fail at running a steampunk campaign using Savage Worlds, when SW is a prime option for a steampunk game, because all he had was core rules and nothing custom.

The players need to know off the bat that the combat engine rewards swashbuckling and non-attack options at certain points.  Players coming in from D&D especially are used to making an attack every round, but in SW you're often mechanically better off insulting your opponent or swinging off a chandelier and landing behind him than swinging your sword every round.  This is especially true against tough opponents when a fellow party member is acting after you but before the opponent.  If you do end up swinging your sword every round you're going to be ineffective and feel frustrated (and possibly end up posting about it online when it's more a case of user error than system flaw).  There's a combat survival guide floating around somewhere; find it and print copies for all your players, but tell them the above verbally as well.

Related to that, although the system gives you just enough points to make a novice character with a d12 in Fighting or Casting, you really, really shouldn't.  Players get the only tool a hammer problem and keep trying to use their d12 instead of changing things up.  I like starting with off skills at d4, main skills at d6, and not always a d8 in what I want to be good at in the long run unless I need it for an Edge or just have the points left.  Consider a one-shot with pre-gens, or at least helping your players make characters the first time.

One drawback to SW is that scaling everything to fit on a tabletop grid means they left out a lot of options other games have for out-of-combat powers.  Give some thought to whether and how you might break range or duration limits on things like Teleport when casting a ritual out of combat for instance.

Exploding dice are less of a problem than you might think just from a read-through.  Remember the GM gets bennies too, so if a major villain gets one-shotted during his monologue you've got options.  Though knowing when and how often to use them as GM is a learned skill, you shouldn't necessarily spend every GM benny you have in combat.

I'm not actually up on all their recent releases so I can't help you too much on what other materials to get.  I suggest any single campaign setting for it to get an idea of what kind of changes to make for a setting document.  It doesn't matter too much which, but SW Rifts is certainly as good as any.

Just to provide an example to what others have said in regards to combat in Savage Worlds I played a child noble in a Savage Mars game who had an emphasis on social skills. When it came time to combat often the best option for me was to taunt an opponent or use some kind of feint to set up a bonus for the more combat oriented characters to wail on the opposition. I'm not sure I ever shot a radium gin or stabbed at anyone more than a couple of times throughout the 20 sessions or so the campaign lasted before it petered out.

Quote from: Dave R;1115886The GM needs to know you're not actually intended to run it just by throwing the core book on the table and telling your players to make characters for a certain campaign.  You're intended to take inappropriate Edges out, come up with custom Professional Edges, consider some of the optional rules as dials to get the feel you want, and come up with a setting document if you want it to feel like what you're trying to run.  I once saw a new GM fail at running a steampunk campaign using Savage Worlds, when SW is a prime option for a steampunk game, because all he had was core rules and nothing custom.

I own a copy of GURPS, I get the gist.

Il also keep in mind the "Break the grid" principles.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1115883Burn downs are where everyone does damage the same way round to round until the boss is dead and hope for decent odds. Players are use to playing this way and GMs learn to run monsters this way from other systems. This isn't how Savage Worlds is supposed to run. Your environment should be more interesting.

Sounds fantastic.

Pros: it exists and some people derive enjoyment from it.

Cons: It sucks and I hate it! Yuck!

I'll get my coat.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1115915Pros: it exists and some people derive enjoyment from it.

Cons: It sucks and I hate it! Yuck!

I'll get my coat.

Since we have had similarities before, id like you to fill me in on why you hate it.

Pros - Flexible. The inherent mechanics allows you dial up/down the pace/combat/scale of combat with relative ease. PC growth is not locked into "classes" but into "Tropes" - if it exists in your world, the PC can pursue to learn it and be it GM notwithstanding. Core rules works across genres fairly well with support. Combat is very tactile and encourages more than just "stand-and-bang" (but you can do that too). Combat can be a very creative exercise that in my experience can draw even the most un-creative and mechanical-crunch players into the fun. The tool-kit design of the system is an *extreme* Pro for GM's that are experienced. It can be a little daunting to total beginner GM's if you're using the Core materials alone. But there is a TON of support material I think that covers those GM's. The Plot-Point adventure design is a good method of teaching new GM's to go beyond the linear adventure design (if done well) and a good intro to sandboxing. The system also fully support Theater of the Mind play over battlemat-only* (see Cons).

Cons - The math curve can be a little weird at the high-end of the game. It's a minor thing to me but the whole d8 being statistically *slightly* worse than d6 due to exploding dice (and it's so minuscule it shouldn't matter, yet...)  I think current SWADE's  demphasization on Trappings is a regression when it comes to their Powers (and if you don't know 'Trappings' are the method/school/style in which you exemplify your Power you bought. So let's say you buy Bolt as a spell caster and you want the Fire Trapping i.e. Fire Bolt, and I choose the Ice Trapping i.e. Ice Bolt, in the older editions it matters a bit more in their mechanical differences. I think the downstream effects of this when it comes to Powers (Weird Science/Arcane/Psionics) has lost a little fidelity in mechanical expression. But it's nothing any novice GM can't tweak. The terminology that exists in the game for battle-mat play can be slightly annoying if you don't need them, but it's easily translated once you run it through without a Battlemat. I think the abstraction necessary to make the game "work" mechanically is a slight issue too. Examples being large caliber weapons tend to be "samey" relative to small caliber weapons - but you have play room within the context of "setting controls". Which brings us to the Tool-kit downside. If you're the type of GM that doesn't want to create their own setting and do your own thing, then you should wait for the SWADE setting books to drop. Or buy the older edition and simply play those (the differences are minor but significant in some aspects, but easily translatable.

My general opinion: If you like heroic action, and over-the-top play, Savage Worlds really shines. If you want some gritty ass deadly play - with some in-game controls built into the Settings Options, you can easily pull it off. You can scale the game to Fleet combat, and Supers - but I'm not convinced it handles this level *better* than dedicated supers-systems, but people say otherwise. It's a taste thing.

One thing I have done is I've replaced my decades long D&D campaigns with Savage Worlds... and I've never looked back. Best thing I ever did was simply converting all my 1e/2e hybrid-to-3e/PF hybrid monstrosity and dropped it into Savage Worlds - and it swallowed it without *missing a beat*. Simplified everything in tone and scale and it didn't lose anything except for 4-page character stat-blocs into half-page lean-mean asskicking machines with room for growth. The campaigns I ran up to 20th level in Pathfinder now have a chassis to go even further if I wanted to with far less headache.

And my players, who are notoriously picky about what they play and were die-hard D&D enthusiasts refuse to go back to D&D or d20 writ-large in any form *because* Savage Worlds. I'm largely with them (though I'd like to do my 10-lvl 2e Fantasyheartbreaker d20 system someday). That is probably the best endorsement I can give.

Quote from: tenbones;1116075That is probably the best endorsement I can give.

Savage worlds seem's to have everything I like a whole lot about a whole lot of systems, and Im mainly gathering cons to know what to fix.

Im actually very familiar with "Trappings" from Mutants and Masterminds which had a similar system. That was one of its strongest aspects I found, so I was excited to see it in Savage Worlds.

What exactly did the trappings lose in the transition?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1116077Savage worlds seem's to have everything I like a whole lot about a whole lot of systems, and Im mainly gathering cons to know what to fix.

Im actually very familiar with "Trappings" from Mutants and Masterminds which had a similar system. That was one of its strongest aspects I found, so I was excited to see it in Savage Worlds.

What exactly did the trappings lose in the transition?

One big con in Savage Worlds: Outside of very specific sections (like setting rules), Savage Worlds is very difficult to just change what you do not like. The system is tied together nicely enough that little changes can have large knock-on effects. This can be a strength because little house-rules (custom setting rules) can drastically change the tone of the game and how players behave. It is recommended that you "play it straight" before trying to mess with anything.

Trappings in Deluxe had mechanical examples of what they could do to augment a power. Some were free, others cost power points. That system got moved into a general power modification system and removed from trappings. The "free" effect of trappings depends on the GM (or the setting) and will not do something like "for an additional power point the target's pace is decreased by 1 until the end of its next turn". Instead it is up to the GM to decide if a fire-bolt has a good chance to catch something on fire or if fire spells work more like shonen anime or 3.5 D&D where they rarely catch anything on fire. The GM is encouraged to allow for the trapping to have actual mechanical effects on the gameplay, but they should be things that logically follow. A Weird Scientist could trap his fly power as glider with an air-bladder, but then he will not be able to cast that power unless he had that device on him. A speed power trapped as a fancy bicycle may work terribly in odd terrain but way better down a smooth hill. Likewise the speed power trapped as "fire spewing out of my feat" may not work in an area with no air.

I suspect the next fantasy companion will flesh out fantasy trappings more.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1115922Since we have had similarities before, id like you to fill me in on why you hate it.

:) I was perhaps being a bit dramatic there. tenbones gave it a pretty good breakdown, although I didn't find it to be that terribly flexible IME (but you should probably take that with a grain of salt; I only ran 1e and never used any of the setting books so I'm not exactly a know-it-all when it comes to SW). I will say my favorite thing about it is how easy it is to simply *play*, even if I dislike the over reliance on battlemap/minis and the dice step granularity is sort of obnoxious to me. The Benny mechanic was a little annoying too, but I heard that's supposedly been fixed.

I also think I might simply be a bit more sensitive to the items in tenbones'  "Cons" list than many folks are, too. :o It's worth noting I was, at that time, mainly evaluating SW through the lens of a GURPS lover (in other words I wasn't fleeing D&D). I missed all the dials and knobs of a "true" generic system (not that SW isn't generic, in that it can be applied to different genres and settings; rather that its playstyle seems, to me, much more focused than GURPS by default for instance). But I think that's a selling point for a lot of people. "Fast, Furious, Fun!" is its motto, after all!

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116099I also think I might simply be a bit more sensitive to the items in tenbones'  "Cons" list than many folks are, too. :o It's worth noting I was, at that time, mainly evaluating SW through the lens of a GURPS lover (in other words I wasn't fleeing D&D). I missed all the dials and knobs of a "true" generic system (not that SW isn't generic, in that it can be applied to different genres and settings; rather that its playstyle seems, to me, much more focused than GURPS by default for instance). But I think that's a selling point for a lot of people. "Fast, Furious, Fun!" is its motto, after all!

I like GURPS as well (As I said I love dem sexy bell-curves) but the chances of me finding a dedicated GURPS group (Even online) is about those of me finding Black Beards Treasure.

Im just happy to hear cons and pros to analyze what to do.

Well the usual caveat: No system is *perfect*.

I am the type of GM that has no problem going "off-road" - but when it comes to new systems I always run it straight-up for a good long while until I've put every sub-system to use, to the point where I feel "proficient" in grokking the tone and tempo of it. Then I start making tweaks to my taste.

The beauty of Savage Worlds is that the core task-resolution mechanic is uniform. The only exceptions to this are based purely on sub-system variables that are designed to be tweaked - Combat is vs. a static derivative stat 50% of the time (melee which is your Parry rating) vs. standard task resolution difficulty (Ranged which is the standard number of 4) with normal modifiers (range increments/environment etc). These values since they're separated from the Task resolution allows you to adjust with really solid results to get the "tone" you want.

This lets you do gritty cyberpunk, grimdark hackety-hack gore-galore style semi-/realistic combat, or over the top swashbuckling man parries a hundred blows and fights ten-people simultaneously while swinging on a rope one-handed type combat with only the slightest tweaks.

I wasn't looking to flee D&D. I came to unfortunate realization that playing for years at 15th+ level in my multi-years long campaign that the sheer chore of slogging through combats, designing combat setpieces (some which never got used), creating NPC's worthy of the challenge, etc. plus all the Stronghold needs (players running a nation and all the sub-factions etc) forcing me to create whole new sub-systems (which I ended up using to publish in Dragon) to support the game, became such a tiresome chore. I realized it wasn't the game per se. It was that I'd pushed the ruleset beyond its "fun" zone. It wasn't really mechanically well designed to inhabit this place outside of white-room conjecture.

Savage Worlds does it with ridiculous ease. And it didn't take any real effort *at all* to realize that if I toss out the Tribal loyalty to D&D - my game didn't fundamentally lose anything. It gained everything. And I love nothing more than a good revelation that proves me wrong despite my natural skepticism. My game, itself, is more important than the rules I use to run it. Go with what works for you. (which may not be Savage Worlds - so take this with a grain).

Quote from: tenbones;1116110Well the usual caveat: No system is *perfect*.

Oh for sure. To add to that, I find a lot of system preferences come down to general taste; I've known many a person satisfied with their campaign, while still fighting the game system itself (I've been guilty of that in the past, although I'm a tinkerer so molding things into shape for a given campaign is part of the joy as GM [so long as I'm not fixing needless errors or oversights for the designers themselves]). I too am a lover of off-roading as GM; I'm sure if I spent more time with SW I would have found ways to tune it more to my liking. Plus I've never read any of the splats, so I haven't seen how others have tuned it before either (because examples and extra dials always helps).

Currently I have been looking at TinyD6 and Everywhen as alternatives, but I'm waffling a bit.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116114Oh for sure. To add to that, I find a lot of system preferences come down to general taste; I've known many a person satisfied with their campaign, while still fighting the game system itself (I've been guilty of that in the past, although I'm a tinkerer so molding things into shape for a given campaign is part of the joy as GM [so long as I'm not fixing needless errors or oversights for the designers themselves]). I too am a lover of off-roading as GM; I'm sure if I spent more time with SW I would have found ways to tune it more to my liking. Plus I've never read any of the splats, so I haven't seen how others have tuned it before either (because examples and extra dials always helps).

Currently I have been looking at TinyD6 and Everywhen as alternatives, but I'm waffling a bit.

I have a copy of 1e Savage Worlds. It does not compare well at all to the current 4/5e SWADE.

It may be worth taking another look at the game. Savage Worlds editions tend to take the good ideas from splat books and just make them core, so the game has evolved quite a bit from the beginning.

Comparing to GURPS though, if you already have a GURPS game set up and the players know the rules, then converting to Savage Worlds makes little sense. Though getting players to learn GURPS is laughably hard. I've ran into players that can't master The Black Hack 2e let alone GURPS or Savage Worlds.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116114I'm sure if I spent more time with SW I would have found ways to tune it more to my liking. Plus I've never read any of the splats, so I haven't seen how others have tuned it before either (because examples and extra dials always helps).

I think *this* stands as a very important difference. We don't sound very dissimilar in our views, but my first SW experience was as a player (Deadlands Reloaded). And using Deadlands with the core Explorer's edition put those differences front and center between the Core and the setting. The game is designed for maximum tweakage to make the rules conform to *your* tastes for your setting.

I'm skeptical enough (probably to the point of it nearly being a flaw) that I needed to look at some other setting splats to see if this Deadlands thing was some "one off"... And it's not. I own a *vast* amount of savage Worlds and it's very much a toolkit with specific rules and formula to use to tweak the system within it's own parameters to do just about anything.

I personally could run a game with just the Core book... but real question is why? There is a *TON* of material out there to crib from. You can tinker endlessly with the system and fine tune your game with wild-abandon and not lose fidelity. Check out some other settings. It's worth it imo.

I've run a lot of SW over the last decade, or so.  It sets exactly where I want for crunch, has strong support for mini's, and only handles the mechanical bits so I can overlay my own fluff over them however I want.  Those are all great and it does excellent.  I'm a probability/statistics guy by trade, but really don't find the statistical bumps in it to be a big deal.  They're there but aren't noticeable during play, so meh.  However, the mechanics are just blah in themselves, so you really have to flesh things out yourself, or get your players to buy in, to get them beyond mechanical widgets.  I love the idea, but several in my group don't embrace that very well.

I love mini's skirmish games and love combat systems based on them, and SW really satisfies my tactical interests, while providing a lot of nice widgets for players to do things.  However, if your players just want to roll to-hit and see what happens or need detailed explanations of how to do interesting things in combat, the system can be a bit flat for the effort.  I ran a ton of GURPS in the 90's (3rd edition).  I burned out on it with the tax-form like character building. It'd completely overwhelm my current group.  It's also a far heavier game to manage.  For me SW, neatly fits into that same space with everything dialed down one notch on the crunch scale.  

The big gotcha's in it are that important NPC's and PC's can both be taken out quickly with exploding dice.  I love this.  If you embrace it, it works great.  It's easy to end up with high parry or high toughness foes that drop with a single hit or can never be dropped (short of a big exploding dice run).  Go for relatively weak opponents at first and just paly into this.  Really, it's no more difficult than most older games for groking what works and what doesn't.  

Personally, I wouldn't do a godbound-like game with it.  I don't think it scales up to that power level all that well.  Also, Godbound is such a great game out of the box, I'd recommend just running it.  SW does well with heroic fantasy, sci-fi, modern world, weird science, etc. above human level but below demigod levels.  

If you want more of a standard fantasy feel with something akin to GURPS for mechanics, I've been very impressed with The Fantasy Trip boxed set I picked up.  It's about as heavy as SW, but is an obvious predecessor to GURPS.  It sets in a similar crunch/skirmish game level as SW to my mind.

Skirmish - Yeah. I'm very tempted to go there. SW is clearly made for it. But frankly, I got too much other stuff going on to dive into minis (again) then next thing I know, I'll have two-3d printers cranking out my mult-level dungeon/cityscape that will fill my entire living room, next to my painting room which is air-tight for all the air-brushing, and of course I'll be divorced and penniless. But think of the GAMES!!!!

God Mode - SW scales into super-human stuff pretty well. I don't think it does full-on GOD MODE well. I've heard people claim it does. I do own all the Savage Rifts stuff... but I feel that scale is a little "too abstract". I could be wrong, I'm *SKEPTICAL* of it at this level. But someday I'm going to put it to the test.

Either way Savage Worlds has already proven its worth to me. I've purchased more Savage Worlds material (Five Kickstarters in the last year or two at $150-$200 a pop. Savage Rifts, SWADE, Deadlands Lost Colony, Wiseguys, Interface Zero 3.0, and I plan on backing Deadlands, Savage Worlds Fantasy, and probably any other splat), than any other gaming system.

Added the the fact I own most of the previous editions material (which is a ton)... yeah I think it's made a good impression. ALL of that material is useful simply for the fact you can crib rules and supplementary material to create your OWN thing. For a GM that likes to tinker - It's gold, I tell you. GOLD.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1116116I have a copy of 1e Savage Worlds. It does not compare well at all to the current 4/5e SWADE.

It may be worth taking another look at the game. Savage Worlds editions tend to take the good ideas from splat books and just make them core, so the game has evolved quite a bit from the beginning.

Comparing to GURPS though, if you already have a GURPS game set up and the players know the rules, then converting to Savage Worlds makes little sense. Though getting players to learn GURPS is laughably hard. I've ran into players that can't master The Black Hack 2e let alone GURPS or Savage Worlds.

Hm. I may take another look at some point then. They do have some nice looking splats out.

Though, I haven't had any difficulty pulling together groups for GURPS before, even with players brand new to roleplaying. I've had good success just handling any mechanical overhead on my side and introducing new concepts in bits and pieces; so long as they understand the base roll mechanic which is pretty straightforward, it goes fairly smoothly that way. I think the biggest difficulty is in building characters if you're not familiar with the mechanical underpinnings of how to properly achieve a given concept; in the past, I've handed out plain-english character questionnaires, to be filled out and returned to me at which point I build their characters for them (and allow liberal tweaking the first few sessions). To be fair though I live in a very roleplayer-heavy area, and as I usually GM (which I enjoy) it's hard not to trip over potential players on my way to work (literally; the last two players I recruited were both from my company and brand new to the hobby in general).

All that said, it can be nice to have a lighter alternative game to work with for certain campaigns. Maybe it's time I get around to looking at SWADE and seeing how its "mouth feel" treats me a second go-round.

Quote from: tenbones;1116118I think *this* stands as a very important difference. We don't sound very dissimilar in our views, but my first SW experience was as a player (Deadlands Reloaded). And using Deadlands with the core Explorer's edition put those differences front and center between the Core and the setting. The game is designed for maximum tweakage to make the rules conform to *your* tastes for your setting.

I'm skeptical enough (probably to the point of it nearly being a flaw) that I needed to look at some other setting splats to see if this Deadlands thing was some "one off"... And it's not. I own a *vast* amount of savage Worlds and it's very much a toolkit with specific rules and formula to use to tweak the system within it's own parameters to do just about anything.

I personally could run a game with just the Core book... but real question is why? There is a *TON* of material out there to crib from. You can tinker endlessly with the system and fine tune your game with wild-abandon and not lose fidelity. Check out some other settings. It's worth it imo.

Ah, as I suspected. That's part of why I like GURPS too is the sheer breadth of material to draw from, both for inspiration, tweaks and other. I haven't had issues running it in the past (IMO it's pretty easy to GM) but it wouldn't hurt to branch out. In particular I'm curious about how SW handles supers and high-powered beings and the like; those, while doable in GURPS, are... well, less than elegant and require quite a bit of work in the preparation stage. I'll go about looking into some SW splats; I've heard Rifts is pretty good and I feel like that sort of gonzo would be a nice place to dip my toes. That or Deadlands, so I can finally force a Western campaign on my players... :p

Edit: Ah, just saw your comment on Supers tenbones. Thanks!

Oh by the way, are there any splats/settings for SWADE that specifically handle "gritty" really well? Not that I mind a heroic baseline for the core game, but I genuinely love me a good "mud-covered peasants with pitchforks outsmarting monsters" campaign and similar.

Quote from: RMS;1116119Personally, I wouldn't do a godbound-like game with it.  I don't think it scales up to that power level all that well.  Also, Godbound is such a great game out of the box, I'd recommend just running it.

I checked it out and it was too loosey goosey for me. I didn't feel like it would represent godliness in the mechanical way I wanted. When everybody is near the same, being an exceptional god feels unexceptional. It just feels like allot of work as a GM to give it the level of consistency that I would want.

I as a player would feel unsatisfied if 90% of my coolness was GM fiat, and as a GM I would feel unsatisfied if cool stuff my players did was my own fiat.
I liked the generators though.

The parts where you influence stuff with your divine energies is the part Im gonna crib.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116122Though, I haven't had any difficulty pulling together groups for GURPS before

Now I know your a robot. The second any player I know sees the charts for how damage is calculated at all they run for the hills.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116125Oh by the way, are there any splats/settings for SWADE that specifically handle "gritty" really well? Not that I mind a heroic baseline for the core game, but I genuinely love me a good "mud-covered peasants with pitchforks outsmarting monsters" campaign and similar.

Gold&Glory: Seven Deadly Dungeons may be what you want (they have a SWADE version now too).

Now remember, Savage Worlds PCs are action heroes. You could make a small child character with a limp, but he will still be able to take on monsters like they do in Stranger Things. Your peasant with a pitchfork is Clint Eastwood or Sylvester Stallone in shabby attire. He is better than all of the regular peasants and could easily take on 3 other peasants in a fight and probably win without injury.

Savage Worlds is not going to let you make "Guy at the Gym" that is equal to all other guys at the gym unless you are running some weird universe where regular people are wildcards.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1116129Now I know your a robot. The second any player I know sees the charts for how damage is calculated at all they run for the hills.

:p LOL! I have had a couple innumerate players who grappled with damage and the like constantly; they couldn't even add a couple dice pips accurately with any consistency, so imagine the looks on their faces when I told them "now subtract DR, any damage that gets through you multiply by 1.5 for Cutting; rounded down"! :eek:

Quote from: Rhedyn;1116130Gold&Glory: Seven Deadly Dungeons may be what you want (they have a SWADE version now too).

Now remember, Savage Worlds PCs are action heroes. You could make a small child character with a limp, but he will still be able to take on monsters like they do in Stranger Things. Your peasant with a pitchfork is Clint Eastwood or Sylvester Stallone in shabby attire. He is better than all of the regular peasants and could easily take on 3 other peasants in a fight and probably win without injury.

Savage Worlds is not going to let you make "Guy at the Gym" that is equal to all other guys at the gym unless you are running some weird universe where regular people are wildcards.

Ah, right. This was an issue I had with my read-through of Everywhen; not that I mind the "PCs-default-to-action-heroes" model as it can be appropriate in many campaigns and genres, but it does tend to harm my suspense of disbelief when in a "realistic" campaign (no loaded intent meant with that term, hopefully you get what I mean) the 12-year-old bookworm in a wheelchair PC can beat up 3 crooks or whatever by himself by virtue of being a protagonist (the same thing often bugs me in movies and television unless it's intentionally portrayed tongue-in-cheek or comic book-y).

Not a deal-breaker for me, but worth noting. Thanks for the recommendation!

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116125Oh by the way, are there any splats/settings for SWADE that specifically handle "gritty" really well? Not that I mind a heroic baseline for the core game, but I genuinely love me a good "mud-covered peasants with pitchforks outsmarting monsters" campaign and similar.

All the settings *just now* rolling out are mini-settings for the most part. I'm not currently running SW right now (running FFG Star Wars) but my SW pile-o'-stuff is growing.

Looking at the basic SWADE book... the *bog-standard* stats for your basic D&D monsters in that book - Orcs, Goblins etc. in their small bestiary are *dangerous* even to starting characters. Sure you can kill them, but they can certainly jack you. Like Rhedyn said you can make your PC's look anyway you want, if you wanna simulate Grim-n'-Gritty...

Use these setting options:

Gritty Damage
This variation on damage works well for settings such as gritty detective scenarios or "realistic" military adventures. It can be very lethal so use it cautiously. Whenever a Wild Card takes a Wound, roll on the Injury Table and apply the results immediately (but roll only once per incident regardless of how many Wounds are actually caused). A hero who takes two Wounds from an attack, for example, rolls once on the Injury Table. Injuries sustained in this way are cured when the Wound is healed. Injuries sustained via Incapacitation may be temporary or permanent as usual. A Shaken character who's Shaken a second time (from damage) receives a Wound as usual but does not roll on the Injury Table.

Hard Choices
Use this rule for more dramatic and gritty games. The GM and her Wild Card characters don't start with Bennies, but every time the players spend one it goes into her pool where it can be used for any of her characters. If this rule is in play, Jokers no longer grant Bennies to either side.

There are others - but these two come from the basic SWADE book (and there's a lot of others). And while I've never used these... I can tell you right now... having these in play LOL will make your gritty-dreams come woefully true.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116132Ah, right. This was an issue I had with my read-through of Everywhen; not that I mind the "PCs-default-to-action-heroes" model as it can be appropriate in many campaigns and genres, but it does tend to harm my suspense of disbelief when in a "realistic" campaign (no loaded intent meant with that term, hopefully you get what I mean) the 12-year-old bookworm in a wheelchair PC can beat up 3 crooks or whatever by himself by virtue of being a protagonist (the same thing often bugs me in movies and television unless it's intentionally portrayed tongue-in-cheek or comic book-y).

Not a deal-breaker for me, but worth noting. Thanks for the recommendation!

Yeah, it sounds like to me that your setting would need a reason for Wildcards to be Wildcard beyond "plot relevance". Maybe that is dragon blood, possession by demons, blessed by fate, Ta'veren, a member of the royal family of Amber, etc. For some reason, your PCs and significant enemy NPCs are just better than regular people. Many Savage Worlds fans accept "movie logic", but that is not the only way to use the system.

Quote from: tenbones;1116133All the settings *just now* rolling out are mini-settings for the most part. I'm not currently running SW right now (running FFG Star Wars) but my SW pile-o'-stuff is growing.

Looking at the basic SWADE book... the *bog-standard* stats for your basic D&D monsters in that book - Orcs, Goblins etc. in their small bestiary are *dangerous* even to starting characters. Sure you can kill them, but they can certainly jack you. Like Rhedyn said you can make your PC's look anyway you want, if you wanna simulate Grim-n'-Gritty...

Use these setting options:

Gritty Damage
This variation on damage works well for settings such as gritty detective scenarios or "realistic" military adventures. It can be very lethal so use it cautiously. Whenever a Wild Card takes a Wound, roll on the Injury Table and apply the results immediately (but roll only once per incident regardless of how many Wounds are actually caused). A hero who takes two Wounds from an attack, for example, rolls once on the Injury Table. Injuries sustained in this way are cured when the Wound is healed. Injuries sustained via Incapacitation may be temporary or permanent as usual. A Shaken character who's Shaken a second time (from damage) receives a Wound as usual but does not roll on the Injury Table.

Hard Choices
Use this rule for more dramatic and gritty games. The GM and her Wild Card characters don't start with Bennies, but every time the players spend one it goes into her pool where it can be used for any of her characters. If this rule is in play, Jokers no longer grant Bennies to either side.

There are others - but these two come from the basic SWADE book (and there's a lot of others). And while I've never used these... I can tell you right now... having these in play LOL will make your gritty-dreams come woefully true.

Ah, these are very nice, thanks for pointing those out! I really like the first one for those poor dirty PC peasants getting maimed. The second one I would want to try out in play before deciding, but definitely sounds like it would go a long ways towards tweaking the "protagonist armor" factor. :)

Quote from: Rhedyn;1116135Yeah, it sounds like to me that your setting would need a reason for Wildcards to be Wildcard beyond "plot relevance". Maybe that is dragon blood, possession by demons, blessed by fate, Ta'veren, a member of the royal family of Amber, etc. For some reason, your PCs and significant enemy NPCs are just better than regular people. Many Savage Worlds fans accept "movie logic", but that is not the only way to use the system.

Yeah, something like that might work. Even something as simple as "favored by the gods" or something, like favored pawns of the pantheon to move around and mash against each other like action figures. Thanks, food for thought.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116137Yeah, something like that might work. Even something as simple as "favored by the gods" or something, like favored pawns of the pantheon to move around and mash against each other like action figures. Thanks, food for thought.

It can also just be an exceptional person (Including exceptional luck). Which just happens sometimes.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1116141It can also just be an exceptional person (Including exceptional luck). Which just happens sometimes.

True, which is I suppose is more-or-less the standard assumption for most "PCs-as-heroes" campaigns; that is, the party is a microcosm of particularly exceptional people coming together more or less by chance, at least in the eyes of the campaign world.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116142True, which is I suppose is more-or-less the standard assumption for most "PCs-as-heroes" campaigns; that is, the party is a microcosm of particularly exceptional people coming together more or less by chance, at least in the eyes of the campaign world.

Yup. I mean your not gonna have them roll for indigestion after eating poorly and then going to the hospital for 3 weeks mid-finding out who stole the queens jewels.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1116147Yup. I mean your not gonna have them roll for indigestion after eating poorly and then going to the hospital for 3 weeks mid-finding out who stole the queens jewels.

Depends on the campaign and how much empathy I feel towards the player at the time, really... :p

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116148Depends on the campaign and how much empathy I feel towards the player at the time, really... :p

It IS tempting.

Regardless I think savage worlds is the next game Il have the possibility to realistically play with a group of people.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1116149It IS tempting.

Regardless I think savage worlds is the next game Il have the possibility to realistically play with a group of people.

If you do get a SW group together, please report back with your findings!

I picked up SW last year sometime on a whim.  On first skim it didn't really do it for me, but you guys have convinced me to take another look.

EDIT:  Oh sh*t!  I see they have a Lankhmar expansion now.  Interest intensifying.

SW is not really an exciting rules set, but it is a very solid set from which to create some great games.  I'd suggest giving it shot sometime.  

I never minded the initiative system, but do find it a bit hokey.  However, I really dislike the chase rules using cards in the various incarnations we've attempted them.

Quote from: tenbones;1116120Added the the fact I own most of the previous editions material (which is a ton)... yeah I think it's made a good impression. ALL of that material is useful simply for the fact you can crib rules and supplementary material to create your OWN thing. For a GM that likes to tinker - It's gold, I tell you. GOLD.

Which Materials would you recommend I pickup for playing some High fantasy Demi-god esque stories?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1116217Which Materials would you recommend I pickup for playing some High fantasy Demi-god esque stories?

Shaintar. Hands down.

Just understand that Shaintar has been made across at least two editions of Savage Worlds. Despite the fact that all editions are easy to convert, the setting itself has it's own "Setting Rules" that are different from their core rulebook editions (which is normal - but Shaintar dials it up).

I recommend Legends Arise (which is Novice to Veteran rank rules) and Legends Unleashed (which is Heroic to Legendary high-level play). You can use all the gazetteer material to fill in any blanks if you're interested in the world. Plenty of material. Or just treat those books like Greybox-style Realms and fill it in yourself.

Great stuff all the way around. But just remember SWADE rules make some significant tweaks you'll have to adjust for/against for Shaintar's setting rules. All easily done.

Quote from: RMS;1116215SW is not really an exciting rules set, but it is a very solid set from which to create some great games.  I'd suggest giving it shot sometime.  

I never minded the initiative system, but do find it a bit hokey.  However, I really dislike the chase rules using cards in the various incarnations we've attempted them.

Don't worry, the chase rules were long considered to be one of SW's weakest areas. Some time ago I found this online and never looked back: https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/7i4icg/heres_a_printable_mat_of_easy_swexinspired_chase/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/7i4icg/heres_a_printable_mat_of_easy_swexinspired_chase/)

Quote from: Brand55;1116255Don't worry, the chase rules were long considered to be one of SW's weakest areas. Some time ago I found this online and never looked back: https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/7i4icg/heres_a_printable_mat_of_easy_swexinspired_chase/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/7i4icg/heres_a_printable_mat_of_easy_swexinspired_chase/)

They completely rewrite them every edition so far.

The current SWADE ones seem fine, especially since they were playtested (and changed completely like 3 times during the kickstarter).

Fun chase rules are hard...

I'm still not sold on them (the SWADE version). I've yet to use them. I think it's just how they read, more than how they operate in practice.

I always thought the Spycraft chase rules were very good, and I kinda think my reaction was that this is what they were kinda going for? (I don't know since I'm not looking at them both side by side right now). But when it comes to crossing that bridge I'll deal with it.

What are some of the more 'essential' or useful/cool SWADE supplements? I've currently got a shopping cart including the following:
Core book
Savage Rifts Tomorrow Legion Field Manual + Player's Manual
Eldritch Weapons

Curious if there are any other goodies one would consider worth grabbing (aside from "everything"). Something fantasy or futuristic/cyberpunk might be nice. I could look for stuff for the last edition too but I'd prefer to be more familiar with the current edition before I go looking to do conversions.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1116284What are the most 'essential' or useful/cool SWADE supplements? I've currently got a shopping cart including the following:
Core book
Savage Rifts Tomorrow Legion Field Manual + Player's Manual
Eldritch Weapons

Curious if there are any other goodies one would consider worth grabbing (aside from "everything"). Something fantasy might be nice. I would look for stuff for the last edition too but I'd rather be more familiar with the current edition before I go looking to do conversions.

When I started, I took just the deluxe edition, ran a couple of one-shots and then I bought all the companions and a bunch of supplements.

So I recommend just taking SWADE, run something with it and then see if you are "in".

A lot of stuff has updated to SWADE, so I recommend sticking with that stuff if you have just started. The conversion isn't hard for older material, but it can be a little off putting and you can do it wrong (for example many settings have bad stuff happen on a "1" on the arcane die, well with the new rules those things should only happen on a critical failure "snake eyes" because you use to be able to benny out of rolling a "1" so it being more common was fine). It's not that big of a deal, but I am an enthusiast about this.
Savage Rifts should have a good chunk of PDFs out that are really good for SWADE. Flash Gordon is last edition, but is close enough that it is proto-SWADE, those books are pretty good too.

My favorite SWD (last edition stuff) are Hellfrost, Nova Praxis, The Last Parsec, and Rippers Resurrected for both player crunch and GM materials. Shaintar is less useful now since a lot of its cool magic things were just pulled into core. Of the current companions, the Sci-fi companion is the most useful (it has tech and rules that are useful for Sci-fi campaigns). Horror is functional but you do not need anything in it to run horror games. The Fantasy companion has some magic items, rules to price them, and tools for the GM to make them that are worse than what is in Savage Rifts, this companion is the least useful and most out of date. The Superpowers Companion 2e is functional as-is, but a supers Savage Worlds game is a different kind of game and I am hoping SWADE fixes some issues with the SPC. That companion demands comic book like stories where having a "good build" is less important.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1116287When I started, I took just the deluxe edition, ran a couple of one-shots and then I bought all the companions and a bunch of supplements.

So I recommend just taking SWADE, run something with it and then see if you are "in".

A lot of stuff has updated to SWADE, so I recommend sticking with that stuff if you have just started. The conversion isn't hard for older material, but it can be a little off putting and you can do it wrong (for example many settings have bad stuff happen on a "1" on the arcane die, well with the new rules those things should only happen on a critical failure "snake eyes" because you use to be able to benny out of rolling a "1" so it being more common was fine). It's not that big of a deal, but I am an enthusiast about this.
Savage Rifts should have a good chunk of PDFs out that are really good for SWADE. Flash Gordon is last edition, but is close enough that it is proto-SWADE, those books are pretty good too.

My favorite SWD (last edition stuff) are Hellfrost, Nova Praxis, The Last Parsec, and Rippers Resurrected for both player crunch and GM materials. Shaintar is less useful now since a lot of its cool magic things were just pulled into core. Of the current companions, the Sci-fi companion is the most useful (it has tech and rules that are useful for Sci-fi campaigns). Horror is functional but you do not need anything in it to run horror games. The Fantasy companion has some magic items, rules to price them, and tools for the GM to make them that are worse than what is in Savage Rifts, this companion is the least useful and most out of date. The Superpowers Companion 2e is functional as-is, but a supers Savage Worlds game is a different kind of game and I am hoping SWADE fixes some issues with the SPC. That companion demands comic book like stories where having a "good build" is less important.

Awesome, thanks for the advice and recommendations. :) I'll dig in!

Yeah Rhedyn is spot on. With the arrival of SWADE... *most* stuff out there needs to be modified. Savage Rifts, Flash Gordon are pretty much 99% there.

SWADE already has most of those changes in the book - they have a little cheat-sheet. But you can also download a most robust and updated copy on their site.

The *vast* majority of older material can be converted with very little effort. Shaintar was already pretty fringe even by the old Explorer Edition rules... as Rhedyn mentioned, SWADE pretty much guts a LOT of those rules that made Shaintar different by incorporating the essence of them into the new Core rules with a some twists.