Yeah it happened. Damn me if I'm not interested. I'm still processing it in my head. It's not that I dislike OSR aesthetic (I grew up on the original material), it's that I'm not particularly a fan of d20 as a system. I don't hate it, I'm just ambivalent of it for a variety of reasons.

Savage Worlds on the other hand, scratches all my itches, but gives me a rash in other places. Ironically, one of its biggest hangups for me is that I want a *little* more detail in its skill separation, but I fully recognize thats a feature not a bug. In fact - it's very OSR in its approach. It is loosey-goosey to allow GM's and Players to control their own gaming narrative of how they do things without calcifying things in rules.

Along comes Gold and Glory, aka Savage OSR and I must say... its very intriguing. It assumes nothing than owning the SWADE Core book (which is an awesome purchase in its own right). You need nothing else (other than Gold and Glory).

So what is it? It's ruleset to take SWADE and pare it down a bit, and apply OSR rules aesthetics to the system to effectively be a rock-solid dungeon crawling game just like you knew it in Basic D&D. WHY though?

For those of you that are die-hard OSR players and have largely ignored my many many posts about Savage Worlds over the years and have never tried it, Savage Worlds is an intensely robust system that, like Basic D&D *could* be used for a lot of stuff. Just like BECMI was designed to scale to Immortal levels of play using d20, SWADE largely posits itself (or used to) as a "Pulp" game system rather than OSR as mechanical representation of its aesthetic. WTF is the difference? (rhetorical).

The thing is Savage Worlds scales incredibly well, I'm taking nothing from BECMI, but SWADE *feels* better and plays pretty fast once you understand the core task-resolution mechanics. But the things you can do with it are attested to the fact that you can play Average Joes doing Scooby-doo sleuthing in a Cthulhu setting, to world-shaking Palladium Rifts type stuff, to Starfleet combat with 100k ships vs. Five Deathstars all on the same chassis without missing a beat. Yes a little more complexity gets involved with a few of the subsystems but the core task resolution is the same.

So why OSR? Well apparently some damn fool(s) pretended in their own mind that Savage Worlds "can't dungeoncrawl". Ludicrous. Of course dungeoncrawling is just adventuring in a dungeon. SWADE can easily handle it.

HERE is where the rubber hits the road. SWADE is designed for *you* the GM to dress your game with the appropriate rules for your setting. In other words you can bend and shape the assumptions of your SWADE rules to the needs of your setting. What Gold and Glory does is adopt the OSR aesthetic and pare down the SWADE options to adhere to those OSR conceits.

Character Generation
Yes you can technically use standard SWADE rules (they give you a list of "Standard OSR appropriate options" but why do that? Here you have total random chargen. Draw three cards - 1st card determine sex (Male or Female - we're off to a good start guys LOL). 2nd card determines Race (Human, Halfling, Dwarf, Elf, Half-Orc, Half-elf),  3rd card determines your class (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard).

All attributes are d6 unless your race increases a stat to d8 (Humans get to pick one stat to raise).

Classes? But this is SWADE there are no classes! Wrong. Classes are just a package of skills and abilities that express a vocation. So it is in Gold and Glory your "Class" represents that too.

Example:Fighter. You gain: Athletics d6, Common Knowledge d4, Fighting d10, Intimidation d6, Notice d4, Persuasion d4, Stealth d4. You can also choose one of the following skills, at d6: Healing or Shooting.

Edges and Hindrances are randomly determined by a draw of a trio cards. The first two are your Hindrances, and the last are you Edges. All of these are found in the core book.

Caster's have limited spell-selection and start with basic powers and two draws for their other starting "spells". Wizards get Detect/Conceal Arcana (Detect/hide magic) they can always trade one of their draws for the Bolt power, Clerics start with Healing + two draws.

There are some optional random tables for drawing "Connections" between the PC's - based on same Race, Class, etc. You might have the same mentor, related, share some past tradecraft etc.

Slap a name on your character and you're done*.

Equipment
Your class determines your *very* basic starting armor and weapon set. You get a backpack +2d6sp, and can pull three cards for "extra gear" - and you get to choose two of the three choices. Rogues gets to do this process twice (so they get more gear).

There are two-tables for your choices depending on if you pull a red or black card. For example the Red card table:

2 Goatskin of wine, 1 pint
3 Rope (15") and grappling hook
4 Winter clothes; also gain Survival d4
5 Spyglass
6 Bandages (d6 uses); also gain Healing d4
7 Shovel and bucket
8 Musical instrument; also gain Performance d4
9 Elegant clothes
10 Iron chain (4")
J Lockpicks; also gain Thievery d4
Q 2d6 toy soldiers
K One weapon of your choice
A One piece of armor of your choice*
Joker Draw two cards**

Encumbrance is enforced, by normal items having a weight of 1. You can carry your Str +2 in weight. 500-coins is 1 Weight. There is a sliding scale of speed reduction based on how far over.


There is a "streamlined" gear list, but it's more than robust enough to cover everything you'd find in basic DnD, but because it's SWADE there are weapon distinctions beyond "just damage". For example Flails ignore Shield bonus, Rapier give you +1 to your Parry rating. Warhammers have Armor Piercing of 1 if you use the spike on the back of it, among others. All standard SWADE stuff.

Some gear actually requires a roll to use! Lighting a torch for example is a d6. Lanterns are a d8. This assumes you have Flint and Tinder - otherwise you can make a Survival check.

Scrolls are a thing with their own rules for use and creation. Including for non-caster use.

Setting Rules
"Vancian Options" - Wizards can prepare their spells ahead of time. Each spell can prepared once up to their spellpoint cost limit. The casting check gets +2 with that prepared spell (and costs zero power points).

Improvised casting is "normal" SWADE casting EXCEPT that if you fail you get a spell backlash. (Normally in SWADE this requires a critical failure of snake-eyes on your roll). So this systems encourages "Vancianesque" casting. I really like this and I may adopt this for my ongoing fantasy games.

Exploration and Movement
Searching an area takes 5-10 minutes, time tracking is important for light-sources and spells (Powers). Running away from encounters *always* involves an Athletic-based chase scene using the map instead of a row of Chase Cards (it's a SWADE thing). This is a really nice rule btw.

Advancement
Advancement is based on LOOT. "Loot" can be specific if you want, but they give you an optional mechanic of a "Loot token" (I'm not a fan). Effectively in this optional system, the token represents "stuff of value" - you can elaborate all you want on it. But each token adds up. Every 5-tokens equals 1 item's worth of encumbeance. Meh - I'll go with actually detailed loot as I've always done.

Anyhow... at the end of the adventure, when the PC's cash-in, they get 1XP for every GP's worth of loot they bring back. Mind you, we're on the silver-standard.

Novice 50
Seasoned 100
Veteran 150
Heroic 200
Legendary 250

So for those that don't play Savage Worlds - it's *assumed* you make four advancements before you make the next Rank. An Advancement lets you: Buy a new Edge (like a Feat but beefier), Raise a stat, Raise two skills (but they can't be higher than their corresponding stat - otherwise one skill raise if higher).

There are Carousing Rules which let's you blow money between dungeon delves for random bonuses/penalties. Cocaine and Hooker's My friend...

Magical Research - Basically Carousing for nerdy Wizards
Offerings to Solis - Basically Carousing for pious Clerics

Random Dungeon Generation.

This is nothing new to the OSR, but it is for SWADE. Of course in SWADE you build a Dungeon Deck, and it builds the dungeon as you play by pulling three cards which details the size of the rooms and number of exits depending on the type of dungeon it is (Cavern, or not) and what kind of hazards are in it.

At first I was like eh, but the more I looked at it the more interesting it felt. The more OSR it felt. They have several really good examples of it in use including the actual map they generated and and it was pretty nice.

Lastly the book comes with a bunch of mini-adventures and dungeon crawls.

SO FAR I'm very pleased with the purchase. This is not supposed to be a review of the product, rather it's a strange and wonderful little product where my interests and the OSR directly connect and I am planning on giving it a go when my current Rifts game wraps up. Likewise, I thought OSR folks that have never felt a reason to check out SWADE might want to take a look at this as their entry-point into SWADE using something familiar to them.

This is not to say - "Why would I use SWADE OSR when I have my own OSR rules?", it's only to show you can do OSR with SWADE, but you'll have the full force of SWADE options to partake in if you decide to rev up the octane or simply pull in bits and bobs from the massive amount of SWADE material out there into your game that would be way too much overhead in a standard OSR ruleset if you're pressed for time.

Yes i have it and I like it also

Have you used it yet? It's got me thinking about my next fantasy game. Effectively I'm going to end up writing an entire primer using only the Savage Core rules, Gold and Glory with elements from the Fantasy Companion. I want it to be closer to 1e D&D than Basic.

My current thoughts are expounding a little more on "classes" - just making them archetype packages and let the players re-arrange 2d worth of skills.

I'm currently thinking of putting in schools of magic ala 1e, with specific spell-lists for each. EMPHASIZE heavily on this "Vancian"-like system. Perhaps add "Corruption" rules for Critical Failures and keep the Magical Mishap for *any* improvised magic failure.

For Clerics - I'll simply blow out the spell lists based on the Gods and their spheres of control. I'll nix Healing as an automatic Power for all Clerics.

After that? Expanded gear lists for setting-relevant stuff?

Gold & Glory appears to be mostly a series of 1E-looking dungeon adventures. Those are always handy to have around. Otherwise, I'm mixed on it.

I think the random character generation is well done, but I'm not sure I'd want to use it myself. Using treasure as a means of advancing characters is a pretty good idea. SWADE uses milestone advancement, which leaves something to be desired if you're trying to run a more sandbox dungeon/hex crawl style of game.

I'm sure it's a well made product, but I can't say I see a point in it. If I'm going to chose SWADE for a campaign I want to run, it's going to be because I expressly want something that doesn't play like an OSR game.

I also don't care too much for using playing cards in an RPG. That's pretty easily ignored in core SWADE or Savage Pathfinder. Sounds like they're more intrinsic to this rule set.

Quote from: tenbones on September 12, 2024, 11:27:12 AMSWADE largely posits itself (or used to) as a "Pulp" game system rather than OSR as mechanical representation of its aesthetic. WTF is the difference? (rhetorical).

Of course nobody can agree on what "pulp" means, but for my money SWADE does it better than OSR, largely because the PCs are more generalist in their skills and more competent at starting level than OSR PCs are. "Pulp" protagonists are almost uniformly both multiskilled and very good at what they do.

Quote from: tenbones on September 12, 2024, 11:27:12 AMSo why OSR? Well apparently some damn fool(s) pretended in their own mind that Savage Worlds "can't dungeoncrawl". Ludicrous. Of course dungeoncrawling is just adventuring in a dungeon. SWADE can easily handle it.

To interpret that position more charitably. Classic style dungeon-crawling is all about resources and attrition: Torches and ammunition to a degree, but much more importantly spells and hit points. IME SWADE (and any other game with a wound tier system instead of HP) produces a different dynamic where more emphasis is put on the danger of a single encounter, as compared to most versions of D&D putting the emphasis on attrition over several encounters between rests. 

It doesn't sound like this version is doing anything to alter the wounds/healing system, though, so clearly they see something different than I do.

I could never get into Savage Worlds. The use of a deck of cards to resolve combat seems weird.
It's just not my thing. I gotta use dice.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 12, 2024, 11:23:25 PMI'm sure it's a well made product, but I can't say I see a point in it. If I'm going to chose SWADE for a campaign I want to run, it's going to be because I expressly want something that doesn't play like an OSR game.

I also don't care too much for using playing cards in an RPG. That's pretty easily ignored in core SWADE or Savage Pathfinder. Sounds like they're more intrinsic to this rule set.

Well the truth is anything that you can use cards for in SWADE, 95% of the time you can just roll a die for. It's a holdover from the Deadlands game and used for Initiative. There *are* Edges that leverage cards, but you could easily turn it into a die-roll if you wanted.

I know it sounds weird for *me* to talking about OSR as a largely (but not exclusively) SWADE gamer these days, but it's the lightness of the OSR aesthetic that cleaves closer to SWADE Core vs. SWADE <X> where X is any of the modern settings that SWADE is being used for.

It's a recapitulation of what D&D started as Basic>1e/2e>3.x>4e>5e has evolved into, SWADE is *technically* on that path with a huge caveat: SWADE's design is 100% designed to use its scaling power interchangeably which d20 is not designed to do.

SWADE Core is fairly light. Gold and Glory, pares it down A LITTLE. But the promise of SWADE is that you have a clear path to add more complexity or power without sacrificing what YOU as a GM want from your setting. I mean, people play OSR D&D *because* of all the weird shit that's cropped up in d20 over the years that bog it down, in trying to "innovate" gameplay. In SWADE the gameplay is much more stable, what options you have is the ability to tweak and scale power and genre conceits with mechanics that support the core resolution mechanics, and do so with very little effort - by design.

I've run a LOT of SWADE over the last few years. The reason why I never glommed on to the OSR was not because of the OSR aesthetic, but because I find standard d20 mechanics as being more limiting to my needs. My players, and I, are all die-hard d20 players. SWADE's impact on us all makes it terribly difficult to go back. I could force the issue, but the Law of Gaming Inertia is real. And I don't think the bang is worth the buck.

So WHY SWADE OSR? For me, it's because my SWADE games have been much more high-octane than "standard D&D" levels of power. I'm currently running Savage Rifts, and in between Savage Rifts, I'm running Marvel Superheroes/Heroic RPG. My players are in some ways used to playing high-powered games. I want to let them breathe a bit, I want to get "back to basics" - but not make them play a system none of us like.

SWADE OSR is *more* than I'd normally do, but that's the beauty of SWADE - I can use what I like without impacting the rest of the system with ease.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 12, 2024, 11:23:25 PMOf course nobody can agree on what "pulp" means, but for my money SWADE does it better than OSR, largely because the PCs are more generalist in their skills and more competent at starting level than OSR PCs are. "Pulp" protagonists are almost uniformly both multiskilled and very good at what they do.

Precisely. That's why I'm going to do my own version of "Classes" as skill packages to encompass the concept. I'll lean a little more on 1e than Basic in terms conceit.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 12, 2024, 11:23:25 PMTo interpret that position more charitably. Classic style dungeon-crawling is all about resources and attrition: Torches and ammunition to a degree, but much more importantly spells and hit points. IME SWADE (and any other game with a wound tier system instead of HP) produces a different dynamic where more emphasis is put on the danger of a single encounter, as compared to most versions of D&D putting the emphasis on attrition over several encounters between rests. 

It doesn't sound like this version is doing anything to alter the wounds/healing system, though, so clearly they see something different than I do.

As someone that runs a lot of SWADE I can attest the immediate difference is that SWADE lets your PC's do the "heroic fray" thing much more than in D&D. You can throw much more at your PC's than in low-level D&D. This can be good/bad based on what you want in the game. There is definitely a tempo to it.

I do take your point about resource management as being a BIG distinction - I think they exist in SWADE, but they're not as different once you get the hang of it. For instance in d20, since there is no real Death Spiral mechanics, you're operating at optimum capacity until you drop. Experienced SWADE players know, once you take that first Wound, it gets SCARY real fast, and you know the next Wound *is* coming. God forbid what happens *after* combat in my games, because I'm big on environmental stuff.

Those Wounds will get you killed just trying to travel - Survival checks are premium skills in my games, all of which I learned running hex-crawls in early D&D.

SWADE OSR makes sense for anyone wanting to play OSR with a different set of mechanics which gives you options for pushing that OSR aesthetic to higher-granularity and power with less mechanical effort.

Quote from: blackstone on September 13, 2024, 09:19:49 AMI could never get into Savage Worlds. The use of a deck of cards to resolve combat seems weird.
It's just not my thing. I gotta use dice.

  Could not agree more...then I tried it a few times and now it is the chosen rule set for our gaming group. 

Quote from: blackstone on September 13, 2024, 09:19:49 AMI could never get into Savage Worlds. The use of a deck of cards to resolve combat seems weird.
It's just not my thing. I gotta use dice.

d20 + Agility die, take highest, no exploding is what I've been using in my games for initiative instead of the cards.  Nat 20 = Joker. I debated other options, but settled on that one for now.  Might change it to Spirit next game.  Close enough for us and the players wanted their attributes to matter more.

I tried Savage Worlds again (admittedly just for a short demo again) and it's not for me.  I have trouble seeing how to marry the very swingy power fantasy rules inherent in SW's system with what is usually (from my admittedly outsider looking in perspective) paired down fantasy of OSR.  Does it still use the uncapped exploding dice system?   That was the biggest issue for me personally and has an easy fix (in that you can simply cap it obviously) but, for fans of the system, that is frequently listed as the defining feature that they love.

Quote from: RNGm on September 14, 2024, 09:40:32 PMI tried Savage Worlds again (admittedly just for a short demo again) and it's not for me.  I have trouble seeing how to marry the very swingy power fantasy rules inherent in SW's system with what is usually (from my admittedly outsider looking in perspective) paired down fantasy of OSR.  Does it still use the uncapped exploding dice system?   That was the biggest issue for me personally and has an easy fix (in that you can simply cap it obviously) but, for fans of the system, that is frequently listed as the defining feature that they love.

Right out of the box, the current system is pretty vanilla and doesn't really approach the level of wackiness by conceit of say D&D when it comes to fantasy without you putting all that in there. Inversely, to play closer to OSR, it's fairly simple: keep starting Skills capped at d8, limit Powers for Arcane and Divine casters (again for starting characters). And add whatever Setting Rules you think are appropriate for your setting. I'd use a custom Setting Rule like this (this is not mine it's something I found from this guy named Deskepticon on the Pinnacle forums):

Massive Damage
A single hit that deals 3 or more wounds beyond Incapacitation kills a character outright. Do not roll Vigor, do not collect 200 dollars, go straight to Dead. You may attempt to Soak as usual.

Paring SWADE down is *easy* because a small tweak has large effects in play.

In terms of uncapped exploding dice, there is no cap on exploding dice. However, the Attacks can never grant more than single bonus damage die on a Raise. It's been this way since SWADE edition started which has been years. I suspect this is the thing you are referring to from the older Deluxe edition. Damage dice can explode forever, but once you go beyond 4 Wounds (which is a fantastically high roll) Players still can simply make a Soak roll. If not - well...

This is why the game is faster than 5e which has the opposite effect as everything is a HP punching-bag. I think this leans into the OSR aesthetic nicely, especially since Minions only have one Wound. Fights are desperate and brutally fast, plus you're more likely to fight against numbers of opponents that actually are closer to the old Gygaxian Number Appearing rules. It's one of the main things that modern D&D players are fearful of when coming into SWADE.

Quote from: Brander on September 14, 2024, 07:34:55 PMd20 + Agility die, take highest, no exploding is what I've been using in my games for initiative instead of the cards.  Nat 20 = Joker. I debated other options, but settled on that one for now.  Might change it to Spirit next game.  Close enough for us and the players wanted their attributes to matter more.

That's not bad. You could also add +2 for the Quick Edge or something.

Cards and bennies are frequent complaints. Personally, I appreciate that PEG embraced the idea that we're playing a game and threw in more things to play with at the table.

It's not like poker cards are some specialized product that cost you an arm and a leg. They're a lot easier to get your hands on than the specially-shaped pieces of plastic you roll on the table. The more I play around with the system, the more I appreciate how much easier initiative is in Savage Worlds. It's difficult to articulate why that is, but there's something natural to slinging cards around a table. I like that the initiative order is dynamic and changes every round. I could do that with dice, too, but it takes longer. Trying to get rid of the cards and use dice is a solution in search of a problem.

Quote from: tenbones on September 16, 2024, 10:41:53 AMThis is why the game is faster than 5e which has the opposite effect as everything is a HP punching-bag. I think this leans into the OSR aesthetic nicely, especially since Minions only have one Wound. Fights are desperate and brutally fast, plus you're more likely to fight against numbers of opponents that actually are closer to the old Gygaxian Number Appearing rules. It's one of the main things that modern D&D players are fearful of when coming into SWADE.

I ran Dragons of Flame last night, and they fought 40+ zombies in the tunnels of the Sla-Mori. The slave caravan fight a few sessions back with the ~30 or so goblins and hobgoblins was another banger.

Being able to drop a bunch of glass beads on the table and say, "There's that many monsters. Have fun," and give zero fucks about such banal concepts as "balanced encounters" is definitely a selling point.

Quote from: tenbones on September 16, 2024, 10:42:55 AM...
That's not bad. You could also add +2 for the Quick Edge or something.

None of my players have ever taken Quick for a character (to my surprise) in my current group but my current rule for NPCs is to reroll anything <6 on the d20.

Quote from: Corolinth on September 16, 2024, 03:45:02 PMCards and bennies are frequent complaints.
...

My players love bennies (we use a bag of small gears for this game since the setting is very inspired by Arcane), but they like the speed of rolling dice for initiative and adding in an attribute like they asked was pretty trivial.

I liked the cards, but I'm sold on the dice now.  If I ran with another group and they wanted cards back, I'd happily oblige.

Quote from: tenbones on September 16, 2024, 10:41:53 AMIn terms of uncapped exploding dice, there is no cap on exploding dice. However, the Attacks can never grant more than single bonus damage die on a Raise. It's been this way since SWADE edition started which has been years. I suspect this is the thing you are referring to from the older Deluxe edition. Damage dice can explode forever, but once you go beyond 4 Wounds (which is a fantastically high roll) Players still can simply make a Soak roll. If not - well...

Yeah, that's what I was referring to in addition to the exploding hits.   It just wasn't for me personally and when I asked about it on SWADE specific forums the result was entirely enthusiastic about it (which is understandable).  The funny thing is that I might actually like the system with a setting rule about only exploding once but that would likely turn off people who wanted to play SWADE in the first place.  I kind of felt like someone who wanted an orange complaining that the apple I have doesn't taste like one; it's simply a core feature of the system and people that choose to play it are entirely valid in doing so for that reason.  It's like someone choosing to play a YZE game or Shadowrun and complaining about dice pools... it just doesn't make sense to continue in that case (as was the case for me with SWADE).