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So, I hear a lot about Savage Worlds.  I think it's the third most popular game behind D&D, and Pathfinder (which is a version of D&D). 

What I find the hardest to understand is the difference between your stats, which are dice, and skills, which are also dice.  However, a high stat doesn't make a related skill easier. They're not rolled together, or added up.   

It does make it easier to increase a skill when the stat is high.   But, that only matters when it's time to "level up" a skill from a small dice to the next size dice.

I think I heard once that stats are used as savings throws, while skills are used when you're acting on your turn against somebody. 

I think you get it.

The thing about stats not contributing directly to skills is odd, but yeah that's how it works. If memory serves, you use them for your rolls to recover from wounds, and sometimes for things where no skill applies. It put me off the system at first, too, but since advances are relatively easy to come by, it's not a big deal.

For my dollar, Savage Worlds occupies a similar position to things like D6 and the Omni System. It's a solid universal classless system that's a bit less crunchy than BRP or GURPS.

I've only played one game of it.  It seemed interesting for a generic system. 

This is why I fell in love with the system from Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition. 

In DDDPE your 5 stats are dice, your 20 skills are dice, and most of your racial and class abilities are a dice. 

Roll them all, pick the best two, and that is your roll.  Beat a target number. 

Example: A Dwarf can have a bonus with Axes.  A Barbarian can have a bonus with 2-handlers.  If you're a Dwarf Barbarian like a Warhammer Troll Slayer, then roll your strength of 1D8, Melee skill of 1D6, racial axe bonus of 1D4, and class 2-handed bonus of 1D4. 

Result: 5, 1, 3, 1.  Pick the 5+3, and you rolled an 8 because of your high strength and racial proclivity for axes. 

Savage Worlds seems like your stats don't matter that much.

Do any Savage World vets want to chime in?  Do you roll your stats very much, or are they sort of a mute point because of the way the game is played?

Strength is rolled for melee attack damage, Spirit is rolled to throw off Shaken (this is a very common roll; IIRC, some settings have a skill for this), Vigor gets rolled for healing, Agility gets rolled to avoid area effects, there are other places where attributes are directly rolled.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 19, 2024, 10:25:03 PMSo, I hear a lot about Savage Worlds.  I think it's the third most popular game behind D&D, and Pathfinder (which is a version of D&D). 

What I find the hardest to understand is the difference between your stats, which are dice, and skills, which are also dice.  However, a high stat doesn't make a related skill easier. They're not rolled together, or added up.   

It does make it easier to increase a skill when the stat is high.   But, that only matters when it's time to "level up" a skill from a small dice to the next size dice.

I think I heard once that stats are used as savings throws, while skills are used when you're acting on your turn against somebody.

You understand it better than you present in this post. The difficulty you're having is what you understand is weird compared to other RPGs and so you're second-guessing yourself.

What I suspect you're really trying to ask is, "What is the point of attributes if they don't modify skill rolls?"

Online discussion around Savage Worlds does a poor job of answering this question, largely because you learn by doing. Typically this question is being asked by someone who's never actually played Savage Worlds, and so we use the language of D&D, which pretty much everyone understands. D&D is an imperfect tool to use to describe Savage Worlds. The reality is attributes get rolled more often than, "Attributes are saving throws," implies, but this is not true in all games, and it's least true in games with inexperienced players.

Strength is used for melee damage rolls (and some ranged damage rolls) as well as determining whether you're strong enough to use a particular piece of equipment.

Vigor is used for a variety of not-dying related things, both static values and rolls.

It is not clear to a lot of newer players what the other three attributes are for, apart from serving as a soft cap on skills (skills rated above the linked attribute are more expensive).

Spirit is used to recover from having the wind knocked out of you. This is a thing that happens in combat which isn't prevalent in other games. The actual term is "shaken" and it's broader than simply having the wind knocked out of you, but it's a precursor condition to being wounded.

Agility is used to get out of the way of dragonbreath, dive into a bathtub before a stick of dynamite explodes, or a variety of other, "Duck and cover!" situations.

What about smarts?

Smarts has the most skills linked to it, and so it does relatively little by itself.

Savage Worlds has a mechanic called "test" which a catch-all term for various shenanigans one might engage in to throw an opponent off-balance - throwing sand in the eyes, "Is that a rabbit over there?", "I see your Schwartz is as big as mine! But can you use it?", the halfling running between the ogre's legs to confuse it, and so forth. Tests are performed to set up your allies. When you do this, you roll a skill. "Is that a rabbit over there?" might be persuasion. The halfling running underneath the ogre might be athletics. The defender then rolls the attribute linked to the skill you used. "Is that a rabbit over there?" would be persuasion versus spirit, while the halfling maneuver would be athletics versus agility.

If you're not using the test mechanic, then attributes will be rolled less frequently in game. Newer groups tend to use fewer tests overall.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 19, 2024, 10:25:03 PMI think I heard once that stats are used as savings throws, while skills are used when you're acting on your turn against somebody.

I'd say that's accurate.

I like the effect of it, though. In skill-based systems, I prefer the design choice to require serious investment in skill in order to be good at that skill.

--

In some generic systems, having a high attribute gets you skill for free or very cheap. Say you have a high-Intelligence bookish wizard. Under some systems, the bookish wizard can easily become great at Survival and Tracking, if those are Intelligence-based. Effectively, this means that the only character niches are based around attributes - i.e. there are only two classes "Intelligence class" and "Dexterity class".

Requiring more investment for skills leads to more character types, because the bookish wizard can't easily compete with the ranger's outdoor skills.

Quote from: Corolinth on September 20, 2024, 11:41:28 AMWhat about smarts?

Smarts has the most skills linked to it, and so it does relatively little by itself.

I'd note that Smarts is used to resist Taunt and other attempts to fool the character.

I like how Taunt is a well-supported skill in Savage Worlds, and it can be very useful in combat.

Quote from: jhkim on September 20, 2024, 12:11:46 PM

Quote from: Corolinth on September 20, 2024, 11:41:28 AMWhat about smarts?

Smarts has the most skills linked to it, and so it does relatively little by itself.

I'd note that Smarts is used to resist Taunt and other attempts to fool the character.

I like how Taunt is a well-supported skill in Savage Worlds, and it can be very useful in combat.

That gets into the tests mechanic. Because Smarts has the most skills linked to it (including the easiest to use for a test), in theory it's the most useful for making those defensive rolls.

i.e. Smarts doesn't need any additional "help" to convince people why they should have it.

Yep you get it. What I think is missing is having a GM take the system and really *run* with it. Even the core book reads pretty simple and is plain-jane by design.

But if you're coming into Savage Worlds with a burning hard-on for *anything* in any genre, or any other RPG line and you want to "Savage It" and see how it runs, you'll see it in its full glory.

Yes, high-stats are only relative to the game because your skills are tied to it. Ever meet a strong guy that couldn't actually fight? It's quite common. Or Academically versed people that Dunning-Krugered their way into fail because they thought their Academics translated to other Smarts based skills? Yeah happens daily.

The abstraction of Skills gobbles up most of the task-resolution of the system. It keeps things nice and clean and you really do feel it. You can emulate anything you think about in your standard Fantasy/Sci-Fi games by their tropes. 90% of the time that trope exists in Savage Worlds as a Hindrance or Edge. Your character, is built of those tropes.

Ironically this reinforces *every* aspect of the game you want to play or run. You want to make that Gish Magic-Wielding Warrior? You can do that. And it will play exactly the way you envision it within the core assumptions of the rules *regardless* of whether you are a Wizard or a Warrior. D&D has always been complete shit at this because its classes and subsystems are not cohesive in design.

This is one of those rare cases where the generic system is made to be tweaked to your tastes as a GM. You can dial it up, or down.

Again - I'll point to this simple unassailable fact: It runs Pathfinder better than Pathfinder. Pathfinder <> D&D. But it also runs Palladium Rifts, Super Heroes, and other insane high-power stuff. ALL of that stuff can be overlayed your Pathfinder game to scale it in power to levels beyond what any regular D&D players would ever achieve natively. What's more: it can do it with EASE and you can play at that level with very little extra overhead. The stakes would be much higher - as they should be.

You need to take for a spin with with a serious attempt at a campaign. And just DIVE.

We don't combine Attribute plus Skill in SW but PCs do roll a Attribute OR Skill plus a D6 so you're still rolling two dice.

Why it's that way, I don't know.

I'd rather play Cortex Classic instead.

Quote from: RebelSky on September 23, 2024, 07:03:48 PMWe don't combine Attribute plus Skill in SW but PCs do roll a Attribute OR Skill plus a D6 so you're still rolling two dice.

Why it's that way, I don't know.

I'd rather play Cortex Classic instead.

I thought I was one of the only people that still loves Cortex Classic.  I like it better than Cortex Plus/Cortex Prime for most genres.

Quote from: Batjon on September 24, 2024, 09:04:04 AM

Quote from: RebelSky on September 23, 2024, 07:03:48 PMWe don't combine Attribute plus Skill in SW but PCs do roll a Attribute OR Skill plus a D6 so you're still rolling two dice.

Why it's that way, I don't know.

I'd rather play Cortex Classic instead.

I thought I was one of the only people that still loves Cortex Classic.  I like it better than Cortex Plus/Cortex Prime for most genres.

I like Cortex Classic too. I never got into the later versions (looked at the Marvel one a bit and walked away from it).

Quote from: RebelSky on September 23, 2024, 07:03:48 PMWe don't combine Attribute plus Skill in SW but PCs do roll a Attribute OR Skill plus a D6 so you're still rolling two dice.

Why it's that way, I don't know.

I'd rather play Cortex Classic instead.

Shane once said that the Wild Die was chosen specifically to balance fighting versus fighting. No, I don't understand what this means, either.

I think it's more likely that D6s are common and if you make the wild die an echo of the attribute die, players now need two whole die sets and need to spend a moment fishing for one more oddly shaped die. Savage Worlds consistently defaults to the fastest possible option even if it isn't the best option, and I think this is an example of that. I have run Savage Worlds using the Wild Die as an echo of an attribute and it works fine.

In fact the math of the system is so wild and inconsistent I scarcely notice a difference for the half-session I did it for.

Yeah, regarding wild math, one important thing with Savage Worlds is it actually breaks down without liberal granting of Bennies and edges that grant Bennies and free rerolls.

The odds of getting a 4+ with two d6s is about 75%, but as with most things dice related, that only holds true over the course of hundreds of rolls using platonically ideal dice. In the scale of only a few dozen rolls like you'll see in a normal session you can end up with significant hot and cold streaks and you need Bennies to help smooth out those troughs.

Because Bennies also power soaks/damage mitigation it means players in general prove very hesitant to spend their starting 3-ish Bennies unless they feel confident they can earn more reliably in play because "avoid death" is too valuable to surrender for other tasks if 3 is all you get in a session because the GM never hands out more.

At its "baseline" the assumption is Savage Worlds is going to be "over the top" adventure where PC's are supposed to be like Indiana Jones doing cool stuff and largely succeeding*. The Benny system is also supposed to be an incentive to get players to do more over-the-top actions, which feeds more daring stuff that *should* reward more Bennies.

One of the trickiest things for new GM's to learn/remember is to hand out Bennies for the kind of play you want. If you leave it as a "static" mechanic where PC's only get their three Bennies per session (which is what happens with a lot of starting GM's) then the game will get lethal pretty quickly.

I've noticed this can make players *very* cautious and more passive, even if the players are uncharacteristically not passive. Mainly because once you take a bad turn, you start hording those Bennies for survival.

The takeaway is that the Benny-economy can *massively* affect the tone of the game. More Bennies makes players more daring. Less Bennies makes the game much more grimdark. The game fully acknowledges this as a Setting mechanic. There are various rules that either incentivize more Benny expenditure - or at least rolls where the odds are higher you'll need to spend Bennies like Grim and Gritty rules, or other rules where GM's get Bennies when players spend theirs.

The reality is using the baseline rules and tossing Bennies at players for playing their characters well is more than enough to keep things rolling right along.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 19, 2024, 10:38:17 PMThe thing about stats not contributing directly to skills is odd, but yeah that's how it works.

Palladium games was much the same. Only one stat actually impacted any skills and that was INT. Otherise skills were their own thing and only your level impacted them.

However - the stats *do* impact gameplay directly. Strength impacts your melee damage. It impacts your Encumbrance. All of your stats are your resistance to Tricks. Vigor impacts your Toughness. Those certainly aren't insignificant and are tied directly to much of the core task resolution (at least for combat - which is core for adventure gaming).

The separation of Stats vs. Skills as die rolling mechanics solves the perceived D&D issue of those that quibble between OSR and modern 3.x and later editions about skills.

Here, Skills *are* tied directly to Stats as your stats are a soft limitation on your skill's cap. But ultimately your skill matters more than your stat when comes to actively doing things. I think this is a better emulation than just rolling stats.

It took me quite some times to understand Savage Worlds, but once I discoreved Savage Worlds Rifts, I was enlightened in the marwel of SW (I also happened to have been a player in many one-shots and one ongoing campaign).
SW + Rifts make so much more sense to a "modern" audience than the old basic Palladium ruleset that it makes it weird to teach the OG Rifts rules to new players.
I am quite glad that Kevin Siembieda had the forethought to make sure that Rifts survives his lifetime (for all I know, he is one of the surviving OG Old Ones in the RPG industry, stil alive and active).

That's just it. Mechanics are mostly (not entirely) about abstracting the task resolutions of what goes in a game to the desires of the GM and players.

Not *everyone* calibrates the "resolution" of those abstractions the same. For instance many of us are deeply indoctrinated into the d20 mechanical abstractions which don't make much sense to a lot of people despite our adoption of it. Decades worth of debates over "What is AC?" and "What are HP?" and "What is Alignment?" etc. which even when pointed out how many of the mechanics are simply short-handed holdovers from wargaming or tacked on "features" that simply made sense to those designers at the time who were fluent in the flow of the mechanics and didn't need to really think about them.

As time has gone on, further editions of d20 have added and added until the abstraction of the rules are now largely taking place of the actual RP in RPG. I think there is a sweet-spot to it. It's not like d20 mechanics ever got in the way of having deep immersive experiences - but I attest this not to the mechanics, but to the GM's that promote those things in their games.

SW does something *better* than d20 does. It is by design to let you tinker with the system as a feature not as an afterthought. Yes, you can, and we all have done this in d20 for decades, but d20's design is not cohesive enough to abstract beyond its original DNA easily. It's been done - and in some cases I'd say fantastically well. True20, Fantasycraft, and Mutants & Masterminds are superb examples. But they also are their own strains of the system that require a *lot* of fuss to be backwards compatible.

Meanwhile - SW is like an IT Datalake. It's a centralized location where disparate pieces of data can all coexist and be abstracted under a simple and centralized pipeline. If you know what the values of a different setting or system are supposed to represent, you can model it in SW with very close fidelity.

And Savage Rifts is a testimony to that fact. MANY Rifts fans have gotten on the Savage Worlds train - and all their old Rifts books are still valid. They just become wonderful reference material. The scale of Rifts is not some secret to the rest of the gaming world that's been doing this for a reasonable amount of time. We *all* know how crazy powerful it is. That's precisely why the other Savage Worlds settings make Savage Worlds so important: they're all running on the same chassis and are interchangeable mechanically.

What's more is once you get your feet wet and actually run some stuff, you'll see the potential of your otherwise "normal d20" game, for instance, which by WotC own metrics will implode somewhere south of 12th level by an overwhelming probability due in part to the mechanics, can be eliminated. The verticality of SW towers over many other systems with tools to dial in the resolution of those mechanics as you see fit with very little effort.

I wouldn't even say it's like GURPS where the universality introduces more complexity - most of the rules for high-powered play do introduce slightly higher numbers, but they're relatively small by comparison of other systems, and nothing about the core combat/non-combat changes. Hence you can have Rifts and Supers running on the same system as literal kids from Stranger Things (Pinebox Middle-school is awesome). That's a pretty amazing piece of design that people should check out.

I did a screengrab from Savagegoose (good YT channel if you wanna check out SW stuff) for a very simple but accurate conversion of d20 DC's to Savage Worlds modifiers.

(https://i.imgur.com/jMGonDE.png)

Since SW uses smaller values it's fairly easy to calibrate and even run d20 material on the fly in SW.

Quote from: tenbones on September 27, 2024, 03:16:48 PMI did a screengrab from Savagegoose (good YT channel if you wanna check out SW stuff) for a very simple but accurate conversion of d20 DC's to Savage Worlds modifiers.

(https://i.imgur.com/jMGonDE.png)

Since SW uses smaller values it's fairly easy to calibrate and even run d20 material on the fly in SW.

Thanks, Tenbones, it will be most helpful for any Rifts to Savage Rifts conversion !!!

In my humble opinion, the best way to approach SW is, like that :
Following the dice progression : 1d4 = you are a beginner ; 1d12 = you are an Olympic athelete/Avenger (1d4 -2,= you suck, big time !) ;
Making your own character, following the rulebook, with a character sheet, il will click, quite quickly ;
The basic challenge number is 4 on one of the 2 dice you throw ; max throwing, it explodes (6 on 1d6), but if you do snake eyes, there will hell to pay !!!

I think it's great game and I've run it a ton and run amazing campaigns in it.

1. Incredibly robust. You can hack and change things and it still works.
2. Incredible amount of fan and commercial support. I've got gigs of stuff.
3. Easy to make a character "like you want."
4. Sort of level progression, but you can still keep going for a long time, and you can always be killed by a guy with a 1d4 damage weapon.
5. Game plays really well at the table whether you're doing combat heavy or investigation or social stuff even though there's absolutely no reason it seems like it should.
6. Does run nearly everything, even though it's not clear why it does this. I'm 100% confident you could run Vampire the Masquerade in it and it would work "fine".
7. Card mechanic in combat and exploding dice is actually fun once you get used to it.

Some challenges (maybe)
1. Game is incredibly biased towards PC success, and it gets worse over time. This can be mitigated.
2. Combat is 100% designed for tabletop minis. You can kind of work around it if there are only a few combatants.

So, I saw that there is a Savage Worlds Sci-Fi supplement for sale on DriveThru RPG.

The point of Savage Worlds is to do it all as standalone game, so are supplement books like this really that important?

The big test for most games: Can you run a Star Wars campaign with it?  Or does the as Sci-Fi book add enough details to make it worthwhile?

No, you don't need them but they are very helpful. 

The Companions do a good job of drilling down into what setting rules would apply for a particular genre.  There is some overlap with some of the Savage Worlds settings but in general they offer quite a bit of insight into designing your own setting. 

If you were only to get one, my recommendation would be the Super Powers Companion because it allows you to essentially make Savage Worlds a point buy system without specifically coming out and saying it. 

To your second question, yes, you can do Star Wars with the Science Fiction Companion. There is an Arcane Background that is essentially a Jedi with the serial numbers filed off with some Edges on how to handle blaster deflection. 

Savage Star Wars has been a thing since the system launched. I probably have half a dozen different fan conversions.

Here is what, to the best of my knowledge, is the current unofficial, unlicensed fan-made Star Wars compendium.

https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/lewh4w/savage_worlds_star_wars_swade/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/lewh4w/savage_worlds_star_wars_swade/)

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 28, 2024, 09:59:27 PMThe point of Savage Worlds is to do it all as standalone game, so are supplement books like this really that important?

The point of Savage Worlds is to be a universal framework you can build any kind of game on, so I'd say that genre/setting supplement books are exactly what you'd expect for it.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 28, 2024, 09:59:27 PMThe big test for most games: Can you run a Star Wars campaign with it?

That is a really strange litmus test for a game system.

That said, I think the reason why SWADE isn't a much more popular system is that while it has A LOT of licensed settings, it doesn't have the ones people really care about. The biggest "get" is probably Rifts, but I don't think Rifts has much of a footprint for anyone under 45. A big license like Star Wars, Star Trek or LOTR would push SWADE into the hands of tons of players who would never try it otherwise.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 28, 2024, 09:59:27 PMThe point of Savage Worlds is to do it all as standalone game, so are supplement books like this really that important?

All the questions you ask depend on the kind of GM you are. I have known a Savage Worlds GMs who meticulously planned out every NPC, bought every book PEG ever published, looked up every single thing in those books, and only ever played Rules As Written.

I've known another Savage Worlds GM who would look up absolutely nothing and kept a bowl full of 3-4 sets of dice and one random D20 in it and whenever he needed to roll for something--which was all the time--he would just snag a die out of it on a whim. I'm sure he could feel the different kinds of dice. I didn't play with that group for long, but that D20 had a reputation among the other players for suspiciously good timing.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 29, 2024, 04:50:50 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 28, 2024, 09:59:27 PMThe big test for most games: Can you run a Star Wars campaign with it?

That is a really strange litmus test for a game system.

It is.  Actually, the full quote is that it is a universal law that all games  eventually get converted to Star Wars and Cthulhu. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 29, 2024, 07:21:03 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 29, 2024, 04:50:50 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 28, 2024, 09:59:27 PMThe big test for most games: Can you run a Star Wars campaign with it?

That is a really strange litmus test for a game system.

It is.  Actually, the full quote is that it is a universal law that all games  eventually get converted to Star Wars and Cthulhu.

Yeah that's probably true. Well there is a savage worlds Cthulhu setting (if not several)

Is there a Gurps for Star Wars?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 29, 2024, 07:21:03 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 29, 2024, 04:50:50 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 28, 2024, 09:59:27 PMThe big test for most games: Can you run a Star Wars campaign with it?

That is a really strange litmus test for a game system.

It is.  Actually, the full quote is that it is a universal law that all games  eventually get converted to Star Wars and Cthulhu. 

  I've also heard "No matter the system, someone will eventually use it to run D&D."

Fortunately, SWADE does all of that beautifully.

It runs Pathfinder (and any other version of D&D fantasy) better than d20.

It runs Rifts better than native Palladium.

It runs Star Wars better than d6. Yeah I said it.

I'm a huge fan of Savage Worlds for anything swashbuckly to pulpy. If you could cast Erol Flynn or Harrison Ford in it, you can and should run it in Savage Worlds.

The way it gets there is by mechanically incentivizing doing things other than swinging your sword or casting a spell every round in combat. Sometimes you'll want to shake an opponent (and set up your allies at the same time), and you can do that with witty repartee, or swinging off a chandelier and landing behind them, or... anything else, really. It's the only game I know of that pulls that off.

Quote from: tenbones on September 29, 2024, 09:53:14 PMIt runs Pathfinder (and any other version of D&D fantasy) better than d20.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on September 29, 2024, 07:41:08 PMI've also heard "No matter the system, someone will eventually use it to run D&D."

This is my least favorite use of it though. What I've seen happen is players come in from D&D, and play a fantasy SW campaign, and try to play it like D&D. And get extremely frustrated when swinging their sword or casting their spell every round doesn't work how they expect it to. And its even worse with unguided character creation, if they've scraped up the points to start with a d12 Fighting or Casting to be "good" at what they want to be good at, they're locked into failing at everything else, without even the payoff they were expecting.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 28, 2024, 09:59:27 PMThe point of Savage Worlds is to do it all as standalone game...

If you take it on its own terms you're supposed to turn the dials on the core rules for every campaign you run. Every game should have at least a one page setting document that lists what new setting-specific Professional Edges are available, what Edges aren't being used, what trappings are available for powers and what powers are available period, what optional rules are in play. That's using it as intended. And there is some guidance on doing that yourself, but why reinvent the wheel every time?

If you only throw the core rules book on the table exactly as is and declare you're running steampunk, or cyberpunk, or anything else, you're already working outside what its intended to do. You'll still have a surprisingly functional game, but it won't capture genre or tone the way it can do.

In short, core rules only and no supplements ever is a bizarre test that's got nothing to do with the game on its own terms.

Quote from: Dave 2 on September 29, 2024, 10:20:06 PMThis is my least favorite use of it though. What I've seen happen is players come in from D&D, and play a fantasy SW campaign, and try to play it like D&D. And get extremely frustrated when swinging their sword or casting their spell every round doesn't work how they expect it to. And its even worse with unguided character creation, if they've scraped up the points to start with a d12 Fighting or Casting to be "good" at what they want to be good at, they're locked into failing at everything else, without even the payoff they were expecting.

But you're *not* supposed to play it like D&D. Rather, you're supposed to play it within the constraints you choose to express the game within the context of your setting that *may* be a D&D setting. There is no such thing in any game I run as "unguided character generation". There is no such thing as me allowing players to "simply" take d12 fighting - which is like saying "Yeah your Novice character fights like a 20th lvl d20 fighter "because". The whole point of the game is to put context to your game and let the game run itself. You don't let everything fly "just because". This is where you as a GM have to enforce how your world operates.

As for letting them "fail at everything else" - I'm not sure what you're letting your players doing: ALL SWADE character start with a free d4 in Athletics, Common Knowledge, Notice, Persuasion, Stealth. That's the majority of the skills you'd commonly use in adventuring outside of combat. WTF are they putting their points in? At Novice a d12 in Fighting will making you largely ridiculously strong against Novice-level opponents (but there are ways around it) - what is the rationale for someone to be Captain America-level of fighting at Novice? And any other skill worth having they should have slapped at least a d6 in there. Even *if* you're letting them min-max, SWADE has a bazillion ways to take such dumb 1-dimensional characters down.

d12 Novice character? Odds are his stats aren't d12 too. Have a character *grapple* him. This is Athletics vs. his Strength. He's strong too? Easy, Goblins. Goblins get Gang Up bonuses. Toss in a Wildcard Goblin and swarm him. Have them all grapple. He'll go down. Trust me. And if he doesn't? GOOD ON HIM. He earned it. Now the Goblins will know how dangerous he is and come at him harder.

Normally, I cap my players at d8 unless they have a very good rationalization for it - at least on Skills. I don't care where they put their stats.

Quote from: Dave 2 on September 29, 2024, 10:20:06 PMIf you take it on its own terms you're supposed to turn the dials on the core rules for every campaign you run. Every game should have at least a one page setting document that lists what new setting-specific Professional Edges are available, what Edges aren't being used, what trappings are available for powers and what powers are available period, what optional rules are in play. That's using it as intended. And there is some guidance on doing that yourself, but why reinvent the wheel every time?

If you only throw the core rules book on the table exactly as is and declare you're running steampunk, or cyberpunk, or anything else, you're already working outside what its intended to do. You'll still have a surprisingly functional game, but it won't capture genre or tone the way it can do.

In short, core rules only and no supplements ever is a bizarre test that's got nothing to do with the game on its own terms.

Well the Companion books definitely help. But you could recreate a lot of the content in them on your own, or come up with you own rules that could easily approximate them by simply using the values in the SWADE Core as a guide.

Quote from: Corolinth on September 29, 2024, 10:52:28 AMSavage Star Wars has been a thing since the system launched. I probably have half a dozen different fan conversions.

Here is what, to the best of my knowledge, is the current unofficial, unlicensed fan-made Star Wars compendium.

https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/lewh4w/savage_worlds_star_wars_swade/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/lewh4w/savage_worlds_star_wars_swade/)

Savage Worlds has quickly become my go to system. You can definitely run a Star Wars Game in it. I actually wrote the Companion linked here by Corolinth, we ran the Entire Dawn of Defiance Campaign as a test run. We have also played several others since. We are currently running a Tapani sector game, There is also a group running the Darkstryder campaign.

Quote from: tenbones on September 29, 2024, 09:53:14 PMIt runs Star Wars better than d6. Yeah I said it.

I'd agree honestly, I still love D6 and use it all the time for reference material. That said though, being able to have Jedi/ Force users, in the same game as non-Jedi/ Force users, and not have them over-shadow them, while still feeling powerful makes it my favorite system to play Star Wars in.

Quote from: LeibyChristopher on October 17, 2024, 01:11:31 PMI'd agree honestly, I still love D6 and use it all the time for reference material. That said though, being able to have Jedi/ Force users, in the same game as non-Jedi/ Force users, and not have them over-shadow them, while still feeling powerful makes it my favorite system to play Star Wars in.

Now that is a quote that hits hard.

I may give Savage Worlds another look.  I ought to.  I have the SWADE book and everything. 

Check out the link upthread. Some guy has done a pretty bang-up job of converting Star Wars over to SWADE. There are some changes I'd make, but the work he's put in is *superb*.

Quote from: Corolinth on September 29, 2024, 10:52:28 AMSavage Star Wars has been a thing since the system launched. I probably have half a dozen different fan conversions.

Here is what, to the best of my knowledge, is the current unofficial, unlicensed fan-made Star Wars compendium.

https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/lewh4w/savage_worlds_star_wars_swade/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/savageworlds/comments/lewh4w/savage_worlds_star_wars_swade/)

I ran a Star Wars game using this for a few months. It was fairly successful other than inability to find more than my core group of players.

Quote from: LeibyChristopher on October 17, 2024, 01:11:31 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 29, 2024, 09:53:14 PMIt runs Star Wars better than d6. Yeah I said it.

I'd agree honestly, I still love D6 and use it all the time for reference material. That said though, being able to have Jedi/ Force users, in the same game as non-Jedi/ Force users, and not have them over-shadow them, while still feeling powerful makes it my favorite system to play Star Wars in.

Hey, you made it here! Yours is the SWADE SW conversion that I ran.

If I have a group who loves toys, aka a table full of minis and terrain, then Savage Worlds is probably their best choice. It really does rock when you have 6 PCs vs. a dozen monsters, vehicles, etc and boom, the combat is done in 30 minutes and everybody did kewl stuff with the toys.

However, I don't enjoy SW for Theater of the Mind games.

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 31, 2024, 06:59:12 PMIf I have a group who loves toys, aka a table full of minis and terrain, then Savage Worlds is probably their best choice. It really does rock when you have 6 PCs vs. a dozen monsters, vehicles, etc and boom, the combat is done in 30 minutes and everybody did kewl stuff with the toys.

However, I don't enjoy SW for Theater of the Mind games.

I know the game is mostly designed around using minis, but I've had no problems running 80-90% of my savage world games in theater of the mind.

I exclusively play theatre of the mind. 

My "player base" right now is just my son, so we stick to rules lite.  For Star Wars we run Tiny-D6 Frontiers with an additional psychic power trait called Precognition.  It allows for parrying ranged shots, meditating for clues/insight, and the ability to retroactively bring along a useful item.

Savage Worlds is still a game I'm on the fence with.  I'll play in somebody's game, but I'm the eternal GM and don't see it replacing games I'm already invested in.

I'm 90% of the time running Theater Mode. But I do enjoy some miniature battlemat action since I've picked up painting minis again.

I'm not sure why there is such a problem with Theatre mode? Ranges are pretty straightforward. Cover rules are straightforward. Movement ranges are the same (mostly) as D&D. Why the issue?

Savage Worlds is one of two go to systems for the regular group I play in, and we have never used a grid or a tape measure. Tokens on a white board get used to indicate relative positions with no scale when there are enough participants to warrant it. The only annoyance is the default unit being grid inches instead of in world units, but it's trivial to double and record yards. 

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 31, 2024, 06:59:12 PMIf I have a group who loves toys, aka a table full of minis and terrain, then Savage Worlds is probably their best choice. It really does rock when you have 6 PCs vs. a dozen monsters, vehicles, etc and boom, the combat is done in 30 minutes and everybody did kewl stuff with the toys.

However, I don't enjoy SW for Theater of the Mind games.

  I have played a good bit of it both ways (with the mat/map and minis and without), probably a 50/50 split and I see no real difference regarding enjoyment past personal preference (I like the minis and so forth, but players are take em or leave em and we seem to have a good to great game both with or without them).  So I am unsure as to the rules difference that makes it make much difference. 

I have a version of the Sci-Fi companion.  It has a woman fleet officer on her bridge during a space battle on the cover. 

It has a pre-generated Jedi Knight analog character in it. 

Is this how you would run a Savage Worlds Jedi?

I think the version of the sci-fi companion you have is for the previous edition. That said, I think this pregen still works with SWADE.

I think there are better analogs for a jedi in the SWADE rifts (cyber knight-which IMO got a BIG upgrade from standard rifts in power, and the psi warrior and to a degree the mind melter - though melter feels pretty "sith") but I think that version in the Sci fi book is a good template to run with or to build from. 

  Personally I think you can build a few custom edges, Precognitive parry - allows you to use parry against ranged attacks, and maybe reflected shot - parried energy blasts with a raise can be directed back towards a target in front of the parry. 

   Those last two will make your Jedi pretty beast mode though...but isnt that the point? 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 07, 2024, 07:01:22 PMI have a version of the Sci-Fi companion.  It has a woman fleet officer on her bridge during a space battle on the cover. 

It has a pre-generated Jedi Knight analog character in it. 

Is this how you would run a Savage Worlds Jedi?

As an NPC? Sure. It would be a "generic" Jedi.

For PC's? No. I'd have a much deeper set of rules. But if you look at that stat-bloc, it covers all the basics you'd expect of a "Jedi" you'd see in 99% of any content showing Jedi in movies and TV.

Emulating things they *don't* show in the Star Wars movies is the thing where Savage Worlds can shine. You can create all the Jedi fighting styles as Edges. You can structure the acquisition of Jedi powers from the Power List as a formal training regimen driven by actual roleplaying. You can create rules for Holocrons, Lightsaber creation - including differences in crystal performance. And all of this is purely arbitrary, but the Savage Worlds rules give you all the mechanics you need to plug as much mechanical detail and context as necessary.

Some people just want to do basic stuff and don't need all the EU detail. That's fine. But if you do, Savage Worlds can cover whatever tropes you require.