Quote from: jeff37923 on March 04, 2024, 04:07:17 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 29, 2024, 06:26:58 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on February 26, 2024, 09:42:48 AM
I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation.  Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.

I thought that was (pretty close to) the cannonical explanation. With the caveat that Tolkien wanted to point out that if so, there was no one who could be sure and confirm it.

Quote"It is not told from whence she came; from the Outer Darkness, maybe, that lies beyond the Walls of the World."

-The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion

---

Shelob, being a descendant of Ungoliant, was horrible and scary, but IMO nowhere near Lolth in power or even scope. She'd be Yet Another Spider Minion, and probably not even one that stands out among Lolth's more powerful servants.

This makes Ungoliant seem like a Lovecraftian Horror. I wonder if Tolkien had read some Lovecraft, does anyone with more knowledge than I know?

People have noticed some "Eldritch Horror" tones here and there.  Remember Gandalf's description of what he found in the under deeps while chasing the balrog.

Quote from: tenbones on March 04, 2024, 05:15:38 PM
Comparing Shelob and Lolth because they both happen to have arachnid trappings, free of any other pertinent context... you know... like Lolth being a full blown God, seems, dissonant? I mean I get it, they're spider-looking beings etc. but that's about as close as it gets.

I mean you're closer to comparing Shelob with Spiderman. Their powerlevels and contextual impact on their settings are probably more correct.

If you're implying Shelob is/could be a divine child of Lolth? Sure. Why not. In terms of relative power? I don't think they're in the same league by any stretch.

To me it depends on which Lloth we are talking about.  I think she took some level creep over the decades.  When first introduced, she seemed like some petty lord of her own demirealm, not much more of a god than Strahd of Ravenloft. Then she was an arch-demon and the Demonweb Pits was one of the abysses.  Then I lost interest in D20 lore - but I'm guessing she became the Goddess of the Dark Elves by the time Forgotten Realms became central.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 11:26:06 AM

Quote from: tenbones on March 04, 2024, 05:15:38 PM
Comparing Shelob and Lolth because they both happen to have arachnid trappings, free of any other pertinent context... you know... like Lolth being a full blown God, seems, dissonant? I mean I get it, they're spider-looking beings etc. but that's about as close as it gets.

I mean you're closer to comparing Shelob with Spiderman. Their powerlevels and contextual impact on their settings are probably more correct.

If you're implying Shelob is/could be a divine child of Lolth? Sure. Why not. In terms of relative power? I don't think they're in the same league by any stretch.

To me it depends on which Lloth we are talking about.  I think she took some level creep over the decades.  When first introduced, she seemed like some petty lord of her own demirealm, not much more of a god than Strahd of Ravenloft. Then she was an arch-demon and the Demonweb Pits was one of the abysses.  Then I lost interest in D20 lore - but I'm guessing she became the Goddess of the Dark Elves by the time Forgotten Realms became central.

Yeah but even then from Fiend Folio era she was more powerful in stats than I'd give for Shelob.

I'm perfectly fine with synctretizing LotR with D&D lore for your game. I do whacky shit like that all time. You should see my supers-games! My last campaign had my players going to Japan where some of their team was in a Stark-modified Sentinel to fight Ghidorah and G-Force from Battle of the Planets showed up to help, alongside some Kamen Riders. Later they fought against the Hand Ninja, and Bruce Wayne was in town... and Bats showed up.

Heh, I'm just saying that nothing is off the table - I just find that if I statted Shelob, she'd definitely be more than a giant-spider, but definitely not Lolth-level. Remember in in 1e, Lolth *still* had divine powers outside of her stat-bloc in Fiend Folio, as indicated by the Deities and Demigods book. That alone would have made her radically more powerful than Shelob, despite Shelob's ridiculously awesome pedigree.

Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 01:04:33 PM

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 11:26:06 AM

Quote from: tenbones on March 04, 2024, 05:15:38 PM
Comparing Shelob and Lolth because they both happen to have arachnid trappings, free of any other pertinent context... you know... like Lolth being a full blown God, seems, dissonant? I mean I get it, they're spider-looking beings etc. but that's about as close as it gets.

I mean you're closer to comparing Shelob with Spiderman. Their powerlevels and contextual impact on their settings are probably more correct.

If you're implying Shelob is/could be a divine child of Lolth? Sure. Why not. In terms of relative power? I don't think they're in the same league by any stretch.

To me it depends on which Lloth we are talking about.  I think she took some level creep over the decades.  When first introduced, she seemed like some petty lord of her own demirealm, not much more of a god than Strahd of Ravenloft. Then she was an arch-demon and the Demonweb Pits was one of the abysses.  Then I lost interest in D20 lore - but I'm guessing she became the Goddess of the Dark Elves by the time Forgotten Realms became central.

Yeah but even then from Fiend Folio era she was more powerful in stats than I'd give for Shelob.

I'm perfectly fine with synctretizing LotR with D&D lore for your game. I do whacky shit like that all time. You should see my supers-games! My last campaign had my players going to Japan where some of their team was in a Stark-modified Sentinel to fight Ghidorah and G-Force from Battle of the Planets showed up to help, alongside some Kamen Riders. Later they fought against the Hand Ninja, and Bruce Wayne was in town... and Bats showed up.

Heh, I'm just saying that nothing is off the table - I just find that if I statted Shelob, she'd definitely be more than a giant-spider, but definitely not Lolth-level. Remember in in 1e, Lolth *still* had divine powers outside of her stat-bloc in Fiend Folio, as indicated by the Deities and Demigods book. That alone would have made her radically more powerful than Shelob, despite Shelob's ridiculously awesome pedigree.

LOL.  That sounds like my kind of campaign!

I just spent the last half hour scouring the internet for a hilarious graphic of Princess breaking the fourth wall, hiking her skirt to her waist, and saying "There! Satisfied? Can we get on with the story now?" Couldn't find it of course. After Powergirl's boob window, one of the most iconic images in graphicsdom.

Yeah, what I'm looking at is a fantasy cosmic superheroic campaign where Lloth and Shelob are both minions to a real Big Bad. Craigspider From Dragon Pass would be just another flunky. Possible bosses would be Mallia from Cults of Terror or Atlach Nacha. Don't have Mallia's stats handy: But Atlach Nacha, even as a CA Smith god, doesn't seem to be all that much of a Final Boss.

EDIT:  Ungoliant doesn't work as a big bad:  She's just Shelob on steroids - an avatar of insatiable hunger.

I think we're all in agreement.  Status wise, Lloth towers over Shelob.  In physical prowess, it's closer, but Lloth could beat Shelob with effort in an arena match.  Shelob's main powers are terror and intimidation. Lloth: "Girl, please!  I've seen scarier stuff on Simpson's Treehouse of Horror!"

Where does Cragspider the Fire Witch fall in these comparisons?

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 04, 2024, 03:52:55 PM
An artist on YouTube (Jazza) gave an interesting interpretation of Shelob based entirely on how she is described in The Lord of the Rings, which is 'spider-like' but not 100% an arachnid. Much more horrifying, IMO...and more alien, much like Ungoliant. The 'beak' especially makes her look like something out of a nightmare....

I like that the art style there kind of matches up with the Tolkien animated films from back in the day.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:23:06 PM
Where does Cragspider the Fire Witch fall in these comparisons?

Had to google that one. At least now I know where the inspiration for this lovely lady came from. Fun bit of trivia that.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:19:25 PMEDIT:  Ungoliant doesn't work as a big bad:  She's just Shelob on steroids - an avatar of insatiable hunger.

I disagree for the simple fact that Ungoliant's ability to spread 'Unlight' is a horrifyingly over-powered one. Granted, Morgoth had stupidly spread almost all of his essence into tainting Arda by that point, but Ungoliant just got more powerful the more she consumed. Also granted, she fled from the (dozen?) Balrogs that attacked her with their flaming whips....

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 06, 2024, 10:49:45 AM

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:19:25 PMEDIT:  Ungoliant doesn't work as a big bad:  She's just Shelob on steroids - an avatar of insatiable hunger.

I disagree for the simple fact that Ungoliant's ability to spread 'Unlight' is a horrifyingly over-powered one. Granted, Morgoth had stupidly spread almost all of his essence into tainting Arda by that point, but Ungoliant just got more powerful the more she consumed. Also granted, she fled from the (dozen?) Balrogs that attacked her with their flaming whips....

Greetings!

Yeah, that was the story part I was thinking of, with Morgoth, Ungoliant, and a *bunch* of Balrogs.

Ungoliant was *far more* than just a jacked up, giant spider. MORGOTH feared her, and needed help from the Balrogs to drive her away.

I think those stories frame and describe a creature that is impossibly dark, evil, insatiably hungry, and staggeringly powerful.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ungoliant was feared by the Maiar and the other powers, but was not so powerful she could face several of them at a time with complete impunity. She was some kind of primal being, and probably was resistant in some ways to the powers of the Valar and Maiar, but ultimately, was more monster than goddess. In role and personality I would say she's closer to Apep or Jörmungandr; she's no god, but the gods don't want to mess with her, in much the same way you wouldn't want to confront a loose and angry large dog in your yard.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 06, 2024, 09:22:21 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 04, 2024, 03:52:55 PM
An artist on YouTube (Jazza) gave an interesting interpretation of Shelob based entirely on how she is described in The Lord of the Rings, which is 'spider-like' but not 100% an arachnid. Much more horrifying, IMO...and more alien, much like Ungoliant. The 'beak' especially makes her look like something out of a nightmare....

I like that the art style there kind of matches up with the Tolkien animated films from back in the day.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:23:06 PM
Where does Cragspider the Fire Witch fall in these comparisons?

Had to google that one. At least now I know where the inspiration for this lovely lady came from. Fun bit of trivia that.

LOL.  Beautiful image.  Yeah, Runequest canon is tremendously dense and intertwined. It's hard to figure out what is being talked about.  At least in Tolkien, you can just look up a certain year and see "Oh, that's when that happened!" Why Cragspider is considered weird is that she has two runes: Fire and Darkness, and in Runequest those are usually opposed.  The question is "How did you manage to get fire AND darkness as powers?"
<Balrogs chip in> "Doesn't everybody?"

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 06, 2024, 08:35:06 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 06, 2024, 09:22:21 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 04, 2024, 03:52:55 PM
An artist on YouTube (Jazza) gave an interesting interpretation of Shelob based entirely on how she is described in The Lord of the Rings, which is 'spider-like' but not 100% an arachnid. Much more horrifying, IMO...and more alien, much like Ungoliant. The 'beak' especially makes her look like something out of a nightmare....

I like that the art style there kind of matches up with the Tolkien animated films from back in the day.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:23:06 PM
Where does Cragspider the Fire Witch fall in these comparisons?

Had to google that one. At least now I know where the inspiration for this lovely lady came from. Fun bit of trivia that.

LOL.  Beautiful image.  Yeah, Runequest canon is tremendously dense and intertwined. It's hard to figure out what is being talked about.  At least in Tolkien, you can just look up a certain year and see "Oh, that's when that happened!" Why Cragspider is considered weird is that she has two runes: Fire and Darkness, and in Runequest those are usually opposed.  The question is "How did you manage to get fire AND darkness as powers?"
<Balrogs chip in> "Doesn't everybody?"

Wow the connections run even deeper than I thought. That picture is "Chaos Witch Quelaag" from Dark Souls. The lead developer has come out and admitted she was based on the cragspiders from a Glorantha board game he played. What I find interesting is that she wields flame sorcery as one of her main powers and her weapon scales off the player's Humanity (which in dark souls parlance is basically synonymous with "Darkness"). I wonder how much of that's intentional.