I backed the Horror Companion Kickstarter, so I've had the PDF for several months now. I found it unsatisfactory, but I'm not sure I could put my finger on exactly why. I think it might just be that its flavor of horror, though broad, is decidedly too 'modern' for my tastes (by which I mean pretty much anything post-Hammer/American International ), and its presentation reflects that--it's a rather unpleasant-looking book to me. Also, I'm not a fan of Pinnacle's China-centered manufacturing, even if I understand the reasons.

I'm not a big enough horror gamer or GM to back this, but I did just end a 6 month SW Pulp 1930s game, and backed the SW Science Fiction Companion (finally KSed!)

Yeah, Savage Worlds is great. It really models various kinds of action movie genres and really shines when you let the players just do their thing. The one thing I did need to get used to as GM was just how much crunchier it is than the OSR games (SWN and OSE) that I've been running for the past few years. I also don't use grid maps, so I had to be very careful about ranged combat mods and the gang-up bonus (which is pretty nasty!).

I still am not sure I know how to run a chase, or a dramatic encounter. But I'll try again at some later date. Good times, would run or play again.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on February 22, 2024, 08:09:27 PM
Yeah, Savage Worlds is great. It really models various kinds of action movie genres and really shines when you let the players just do their thing. The one thing I did need to get used to as GM was just how much crunchier it is than the OSR games (SWN and OSE) that I've been running for the past few years. I also don't use grid maps, so I had to be very careful about ranged combat mods and the gang-up bonus (which is pretty nasty!).

Yeah, I also had a great time this past weekend running my Lord of the Rings game again. I'll report soon about that run soon. I do greatly enjoy the Savage Worlds base system.

Quote from: tenbones on February 22, 2024, 07:05:18 PM
The Companions
They exist in their current form at their standard basic level to emulate what people think of as fantasy/horror/supers. They're not overtly trying to emulate any particular edition of D&D or whatever, they're trying to emulate what people conceive of generally within the tropes of what is popular.

There are different approaches to emulation, though. There's a toolkit or an example, say.

I think Lord of the Rings is damn popular within fantasy. It's the best-known fantasy story ever, and has had a dozen or more RPG adaptations. Still, as I said, I found the Fantasy Companion essentially useless for my Middle Earth game.

The Fantasy Companion's approach to emulating what's popular seems to be a "lowest common denominator" pastiche. i.e. Lord of the Rings is popular; D&D is popular; and Warhammer is popular. All three have elves, but the three versions of elves are all different. So the Fantasy Companion has a single "elf" that includes only the most overlapping and least distinctive parts of the three. I think this is a bad middle ground. It's not a good setting to use out of the box, and it's not a good toolkit for me to adapt something like Lord of the Rings.

Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2024, 09:07:28 PM
There are different approaches to emulation, though. There's a toolkit or an example, say.

I think Lord of the Rings is damn popular within fantasy. It's the best-known fantasy story ever, and has had a dozen or more RPG adaptations. Still, as I said, I found the Fantasy Companion essentially useless for my Middle Earth game.

The Fantasy Companion's approach to emulating what's popular seems to be a "lowest common denominator" pastiche. i.e. Lord of the Rings is popular; D&D is popular; and Warhammer is popular. All three have elves, but the three versions of elves are all different. So the Fantasy Companion has a single "elf" that includes only the most overlapping and least distinctive parts of the three. I think this is a bad middle ground. It's not a good setting to use out of the box, and it's not a good toolkit for me to adapt something like Lord of the Rings.

They need to be "lowest common denominator" because by definition the point of these books are to be a toolkit to appeal to the widest audience looking for this fare. As you pointed out - all three elfs are different and very basic. But I'd go further: LotR elves are not represented by any of the Core Rules, the Fantasy Companion, or the Savage Worlds Pathfinder rules. That's because they're not supposed to represent anything but what a basic elf assumption is. The point is, outside of the SW Pathfinder rules, these "elves" are just examples of, as you said, popular (and frankly lame) notions of what Elves could be. They aren't mandates upon you.

The point is to tweak your content to be what you want it to be.  There is no "official" standard build for a race. The normal model is a +2 total modifier. But even their races they provide as examples of custom races are +4. Most of the Race/Iconic Frameworks clock in OVER +100, to give you an idea of how far you can push the system to get *exactly* what you want for it.

Saying the "Elf" in the Fantasy Companion is a weak representation of your LotR Elf concept, is like saying that a go-kart sized example of a formular car is not a good representation of an actual formular car, but you ignore the fact they give all the tool components to create the exact car you want.

For instance - My Savage Worlds Moon Elves look like this:




It's a +4 build as are all my other elves: Sun/Imperial Elves, Wood Elves, Drow Elves. All of them are distinct and fit my conception of my Realms setting.
I have about a dozen other races as well. Including regional Edges for Humans from a specific locale within the Realms. The whole point is to use the Core and the Companion to take full control of your setting as *you* see fit.

Whether you find that value in the books is up to you, of course. I find the Fantasy Companion an excellent addition IN LIEU of the Savage Pathfinder rules which is much more a Pathfinder vibe than I need. Although I will say I do like some of the unique Edges and Prestige Class Edges, as well as some of their sub-systems. Once you have your basic stuff in place, the core rules will handle pretty much anything you can throw at it without missing a beat.

It might be fun to translate some Horror tropes (i.e. other game settings, novel material etc.) using the SW Horror and Core rules.

Everyone here seems to like classic 1e World of Darkness... maybe some Vampires or Werewolves?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 22, 2024, 07:47:01 PM
I backed the Horror Companion Kickstarter, so I've had the PDF for several months now. I found it unsatisfactory, but I'm not sure I could put my finger on exactly why. I think it might just be that its flavor of horror, though broad, is decidedly too 'modern' for my tastes (by which I mean pretty much anything post-Hammer/American International ), and its presentation reflects that--it's a rather unpleasant-looking book to me. Also, I'm not a fan of Pinnacle's China-centered manufacturing, even if I understand the reasons.

I do agree they read bland. But it's like reading a Basic Manual of How To. Nothing about the Core or Companions jump out in terms of writing, other than conveying how to use the new bits and bobs and subsystems in a dutiful fashion. Which is fine to me.

I also agree I've never been a particular fan of the art or layout. And I'm definitely not a fan of the China printers making it a whip for us to get our printed books (not to mention I don't think printing in China is a good move for political reasons but that's another discussion. I'll probably feel differently when I start publishing, but I feel pretty strongly about it - so we'll see.)

While I'm in it for the rules content, bad art will kill it for me. None of Savage Worlds books rises to what I call "Bad Art". Bland? Sure. Occasionally good. But nothing I'm ever going to do a flip about.

Quote from: tenbones on February 22, 2024, 11:54:57 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 22, 2024, 07:47:01 PM
I backed the Horror Companion Kickstarter, so I've had the PDF for several months now. I found it unsatisfactory, but I'm not sure I could put my finger on exactly why. I think it might just be that its flavor of horror, though broad, is decidedly too 'modern' for my tastes (by which I mean pretty much anything post-Hammer/American International ), and its presentation reflects that--it's a rather unpleasant-looking book to me. Also, I'm not a fan of Pinnacle's China-centered manufacturing, even if I understand the reasons.

I do agree they read bland. But it's like reading a Basic Manual of How To. Nothing about the Core or Companions jump out in terms of writing, other than conveying how to use the new bits and bobs and subsystems in a dutiful fashion. Which is fine to me.

I also agree I've never been a particular fan of the art or layout. And I'm definitely not a fan of the China printers making it a whip for us to get our printed books (not to mention I don't think printing in China is a good move for political reasons but that's another discussion. I'll probably feel differently when I start publishing, but I feel pretty strongly about it - so we'll see.)

While I'm in it for the rules content, bad art will kill it for me. None of Savage Worlds books rises to what I call "Bad Art". Bland? Sure. Occasionally good. But nothing I'm ever going to do a flip about.

It's probably simply a matter of cost that they have the books printed in China. It not only affects books, but also cards. For example, Ulisses Spiele recently let American players of the Aventuria card game choose whether they wanted cards that were printed in Poland or ones that were printed in China. In the U.S., the cards from Poland were 3-4 times more expensive than the ones from China. Needless to say, most players opted for the Chinese cards, even though Ulisses pointed out that it couldn't guarantee that they would be of the same high quality as the ones from Poland. I don't know why they don't have the cards printed the U.S. for the American market. Perhaps they couldn't find any printer who could do it in high quality at an acceptable price.

As a big SW fan I'm going to pick this up. Ta' for the overview, TB.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on February 23, 2024, 04:29:01 AM
It's probably simply a matter of cost that they have the books printed in China. It not only affects books, but also cards. For example, Ulisses Spiele recently let American players of the Aventuria card game choose whether they wanted cards that were printed in Poland or ones that were printed in China. In the U.S., the cards from Poland were 3-4 times more expensive than the ones from China. Needless to say, most players opted for the Chinese cards, even though Ulisses pointed out that it couldn't guarantee that they would be of the same high quality as the ones from Poland. I don't know why they don't have the cards printed the U.S. for the American market. Perhaps they couldn't find any printer who could do it in high quality at an acceptable price.

100%. Pinnacle is pretty straight up with their processes. Even the bad ones. If they gave us an option for a U.S. printing I doubt anyone would pay the extra price for just the books. It's pretty cool for Ulisses to do it, but of course they're in Europe, so I imagine that despite the Polish printing costing 3x, I can't imagine how much more a US printing would be for Pinnacle by comparison. It's probably steep as hell.

Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2024, 10:02:56 AM

Quote from: Rhymer88 on February 23, 2024, 04:29:01 AM
It's probably simply a matter of cost that they have the books printed in China. It not only affects books, but also cards. For example, Ulisses Spiele recently let American players of the Aventuria card game choose whether they wanted cards that were printed in Poland or ones that were printed in China. In the U.S., the cards from Poland were 3-4 times more expensive than the ones from China. Needless to say, most players opted for the Chinese cards, even though Ulisses pointed out that it couldn't guarantee that they would be of the same high quality as the ones from Poland. I don't know why they don't have the cards printed the U.S. for the American market. Perhaps they couldn't find any printer who could do it in high quality at an acceptable price.

100% Pinnacle is pretty straight up with their processes. Even the bad ones. If they gave us an option for a U.S. printing I doubt anyone would pay the extra price for just the books. It's pretty cool for Ulisses to do it, but of course they're in Europe, so I imagine that despite the Polish printing costing 3x, I can't imagine how much more a US printing would be for Pinnacle by comparison. It's probably steep as hell.

The Polish cards aren't overly expensive within the EU because of the common market. The problem, I think, is simply the cost of shipping and the U.S. customs duties. Chinese companies must be printing the books/cards so cheaply that they are competitive on the U.S. market despite the shipping and customs.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on February 22, 2024, 05:04:13 AM
Is this a compleat game? Or is it a supplement to be used with a core rulebook?

I mean...it's called a Companion, so...

So I farted around on my lunch and whipped this up... mind you this is literally just an example, I'm toying around with some other options. The assumption here is a "starting" vampire. They clock in at +9 points. Which is where I'll ballpark the rest of the templates. The basic gist - all Vampires share the same basic template, then they choose their Bloodline/Clan and take ONE of their signature Clan Features, but they also take the Hindrance. This should represent a starting vampire. If you wanna start them more powerful, just let them start with more advances.

I'll still need to flesh out some stuff - Diablerie, Blood magic, Clan specific "disciplines" which might just be Edges or Bloodline powers. Easy stuff.

Savage World of Darkness

Vampires
Vampires haunt not just the shadows of night, but of history itself. The Thirteen Clans have ruled the world (or so they like to believe) via their pawns and machinations since the dawn of history. They have done so by their mighty powers and terrible knowledge that comes with age.

Each of thirteen bloodlines share similar traits, but also bear distinctions that mark them from one another. These unique traits are subtle, in other cases grotesquely obvious. These distinctions are more than just superficial, they are defining of their respective Bloodlines. And with those Bloodlines comes legacy. Those legacies are defined by conflicts passed down by centuries of political conflict and outright war for control. Even as rivals vampires maintain their own culture, a decorum that transcends the brutish modern era, calling themselves Kindred... where legend labels them a more abased title befitting their nature — vampire.

Common Vampire Traits +9 then (Bloodline)
All Kindred share the following traits unless otherwise modified under their specific Bloodline.

Ageless: Vampires do not age.
Bite: The vampire has retractable fangs that cause Str+d4 damage.
Feed: The vampire must drink at least one pint of fresh blood every day. This is treated like the Habit (Major) Hindrance. Each pint refills their Bloodpool by 1 point. A normal human suffers 1 Wound per feeding, and gains 1 Fatigue for every point taken. If more than three pints are taken, the human will die if not taken to a hospital.  -2
Regeneration (Slow): As long as they have fed, vampires may attempt a natural healing roll every day. Once fully healed of Wounds, permanent injuries may be recovered as a normal Wound afterward. 
Strength of the Damned: Vampires increase their Vigor one die types once turned.
Undead: +2 Toughness; +2 to recover from being Shaken; no additional damage from Called Shots; ignores 1 point of Wound penalties; doesn't breathe; immune to disease and poison.
Stake Through the Heart: A vampire hit with a Called Shot to the heart (−4) by a wooden weapon must make a Vigor roll vs the damage total. If successful, it takes damage normally. If it fails, it instantly becomes paralyzed and remains so until the stake is removed.
Sunlight: Vampires burn in sunlight. They take 2d6 damage per round until they are ash. Armor protects normally.
Bloodpool: All Vampires start with a Bloodpool of 10-points. These points may be used to fuel the following powers: boost (Strength, Agility, Vigor, Self only), heal (self only). When a Vampire's Bloodpool is empty they must make a Spirit check or go into a Frenzy (See Frenzy). Bloodpools can only increase via increasing their Generation score.
Bloodline: Every vampire belongs to one of the Thirteen Bloodlines, and adds any unique traits from that Bloodline to their list. Those that are abandoned must use the Caitiff rules (see below).


Bloodlines
According to Kindred scholars, the Flood destroyed Enoch the first vampiric city and the thirteen antediluvians that survived spawned their brood which would proliferate through the ages in an endless struggle against their own brethren. Here are the thirteen Clans and their bloodlines. Upon choosing one's Clan, you may take one of the Clan Features. You must also take the Clan Hindrance.

You may purchase your other Clan Features with a regular advance, providing you meet the requirements. Some features the GM may require specialized training to learn. Features unique to some Clans may not be purchased without the GM's approval.

The Brujah
The legacy of the Brujah is one of halcyon greatness marred by their own fiery natures. Theirs was the glory of ancient Carthage, but Ventrue treachery in ancient Rome brought the dream to an end. Since then, the Brujah have borne a grudge.

Tonight, the Brujah are rebels and Provocateurs, bat-swinging hooligans and agents of change in a society long crippled by stasis. As rebels, it's in their nature to challenge the status quo — though sometimes, without adequate opposition, they embody the status quo themselves. It works out fine, because there's always a hot-blooded Brujah waiting in the wings to bring down an uppity Clanmate grown too comfortable in the role of rebel-turned-dictator.

More so than any other Clan, the Brujah still feel the flames of the passions that once inspired them as mortals. Clan Brujah loves a cause and is quick to act on a stirring speech, accusation of injustice, or a call to arms. This connection to passion can be a blessing, but inspiration can also yield to the madness and hunger of the Beast.

Clan Features (Choose One): Berserk (Edge), Bloodline Power: speed (self only) Charm (See Vampiric Edges).

Clan Hindrance: Thin Skinned (Major)

Ok Tenbones, I have wanted to do a vampire game and you have really have my creative juices flowing.  I am going to have to pick up the horror companion and I am going to reread the rules to shake off the dust and really learn the rules again.  I used to really know the rules but after 2 years of not playing SW, I need to brush up.

One thing I would suggest for feeding is that the recover a quarter of your Blood pool does one would to the victim, half the blood pool is 2 wounds and if you are very low and need to fill up then it would do 3 wounds to the victim.

My thoughts were this...

I'm trying to emulate the Bloodpool's of Vampire and marrying it to the Powerpoint pools of SW. TECHNICALLY you're right in pointing out that a human vessel could store more than just 3-Bloodpoints worth. It only takes more than 3 to kill them, just like in Vampire.

I'll adjust the rules further. That's the beauty of SW, the goal should be to make the game exactly what you want. And there's plenty of handholds to do that. Lemme give your ideas some mulling over. Yours might be more elegant than mine.

I'm actually jazzed at the idea of doing Werewolf and possibly the other Fera.

Quote from: tenbones on February 24, 2024, 01:18:26 AM
That's the beauty of SW, the goal should be to make the game exactly what you want. And there's plenty of handholds to do that.

Precisely. It gives you the tools to create a WoD-like game without being loaded down with all of the lore, which many players would expect if you played an actual MtG game.