Thanks for the reply, tenbones. One big thing is that I think there are a lot of D&D-specific issues that have creeped into adaptations of Middle Earth, that are often at odds with the original Tolkien lore.

Two big issues are bennies and elves.

Quote from: tenbones on February 25, 2023, 02:16:24 PM
Let's talk about your real concerns: Bennies.

I'm not a general fan of Bennies, but the way they're used in SW makes sense after you get into it. Most people see Bennies as "Lets Never Fail" chips. They're *not*. They have a lot of uses that plug directly into the mechanics in very specific ways (and if misunderstood - can actually trap the focus of the game).

First and foremost Bennies should ideally be used to do "Cool Stuff" - yes that means making sure an action succeeds. But the reality is PC's should be taking chances like "Called shots to the Head" (Legolas taking out that Goblin while making their way to the bridge of Khazad Dum) or Tossing Gimili over (Athletics check). Or other fun cinematic things.

Arguably the most mechanical necessary use for Bennies is to Soak. When you get hit, unlike in D&D, if damage gets through your Armor/Toughness, you can Soak the damage. It costs a precious Benny, so the natural instinct for Players is to HOARD THEM. Which of course makes them not use them for "Cool Stuff". This requires you as a GM to incentivize the Benny economy in accordance to the style of your game.

Yeah, I had a problem with hoarding of True20 Conviction points, where their best use was for soak rolls. I'm wondering if I should split and give players separate Defensive Bennies and Action Bennies? I could give them out as different color poker chips, with white as action-only bennies, and red as defensive bennies. That way players don't have to trade off. Since an action benny can't be used to soak, players will spend it on the actions they really want. What do you think?

Quote from: tenbones on February 25, 2023, 02:16:24 PM
GM Bennies - well these are completely in your control to use as you see fit to create tension and pace combat with your NPC's. One of the chronic issues is Players complaining about not "one shotting" NPCs. Well if the NPC is a Wildcard, they probably shouldn't be one-shot, but it *CAN* happen. I've seen it literally dozens of times where despite the Bennies thrown up to save an NPC - they get waxed by the PC's. But again, this is not normal. And you can let the dice do all the talking - nothing says you HAVE to spend your Bennies to attempt to avoid the fate of the dice. That's on you as the GM.

I hate as a GM having to decide "Do I want to shut down the PCs lucky shot?" as an out-of-character choice. To keep up the feel of some enemies being Wildcards, though, maybe I'd assign wildcard NPCs a small number of action bennies and defensive bennies. Then they would use those more-or-less in-character for what they really want to do.

Quote from: tenbones on February 25, 2023, 02:16:24 PM
As far as races - I'd custom make Humans, Dwarves, and Elves as specific regional varieties. I would disallow Noldor and probably only allow Sindar. But that's up to you. There are rules for Race creation that you can tune up or down as you see fit to get the version you want represented.

From my reading/watching, even Sindarin elves like Legolas are objectively more than the equal of ordinary humans. Even just by the books, he can run full-tilt on a single rope over a river, walk on snow and not feel the cold, and see with the equivalent of telescopic vision. And obviously in the movies, Legolas is quite superhuman.

So race shouldn't be an equal choice, especially Sindarin as an equal choice to an ordinary human or hobbit. Also, given the mixed ancestry of so many characters, I don't know if I should have fixed categories for Noldor, Sindar, Silvan, and Numenorean as blood. Instead, maybe players can take qualities to represent how elf-ancestry-empowered their character is, like superpowers.

I'm also wondering how to have an elf like Legolas and a hobbit like Samwise in the same party. I think "White Hat" characters like Samwise should have more benny and luck-related edges to represent their grounding and support, even though they are in no way combat equal. Though I also think that hobbits' hiding ability is under-represented in most adaptations.

Best solution I've found to BBEG's and Bennies is to just give them extra no-penalty wounds equal to the number of Bennies you think they should have. That way big hits still produce progress... and you aren't the one negating the "big hit"... it just takes more actual hits.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 27, 2023, 02:30:34 PM
Best solution I've found to BBEG's and Bennies is to just give them extra no-penalty wounds equal to the number of Bennies you think they should have. That way big hits still produce progress... and you aren't the one negating the "big hit"... it just takes more actual hits.

Sounds like a good solution. The superhumanly tough bad guy is a well-accepted trope.

Quote from: tenbones on February 25, 2023, 02:16:24 PM
Your baseline should be SWADE Core and the Fantasy Companion. With those you can tweak up/down the resolution of "Tolkien" you want. Out of the box with very little effort you can emulate the cinematic movies pretty easy.

As an aside, does anyone know when the SWADE Fantasy Companion is coming out in print? I see that the PDF is available on the Pinnacle store, but the physical book is only in preorder. I'd prefer to be able to browse a physical book at my local game store before buying.

June is the current estimate.

I tend to not use things like Fate Points, Luck Points, etc, and don't like meta constructs like Minions, Mooks, Wild Cards, whatever.

However, setting-based conceits I can use.  For example, if you look at Conan, he's not an Ordinary Joe.  For whatever reason, The Powers That Be have marked him as one of those people who can Shake the Pillars of Heaven.  That's why Epimetrius intercedes on his behalf in Phoenix on the Sword, he's one of those people fated to get caught up in the Cosmic battles of Mitra vs. Set and be set against so many BBEG's.

Someone like that has Luck Points/Fate Points, whatever you want to call it.  I liked WFRP1's way of doing it.  For some reason, the PCs were marked for potential greatness (yes even the Ratcatcher and his Dog) and had Luck Points that could Get Them Out of Death Free.  However, that was it.  The player had no decisions to make about using them really.

Some of my players are used to PCs having a Metaphysical Stat (like Shadowrun's Karma) and have managed to internalize that essentially meta authorial choice as to when the "Luck Kicks In".  Others don't make any conscious choices about them and just have them spent to prevent death, like WFRP1.

A flowing, back and forth robust meta economy like SW Bennies, and the Wild Card/Mook stuff are the reasons I just can't go with SW, despite how cool Savage Rifts was.

Someone thinking about SWME I'd point towards AiME instead.

So moving aside from Savage Worlds specifics. Something that came up in the licensed TTRPG thread was that a number of posters weren't interested in playing in Middle Earth for several reasons. Steven Mitchell outlined his reasons - especially being attached to the story of the Lord of the Rings.

Now, if someone absolutely doesn't want to play in Middle Earth, then that's that.

But I wonder if there are people who have some degree of the same feeling, but would be willing to play a Middle Earth game in some cases but not in others.

I'll toss out some campaign ideas that might be OK:

1) Early 4th age, as elves are leaving, set on the edges of civilization where some of the really old things that the elves had kept in check are now coming loose. Stuff like the barrow wights, Old Man Willow, or Shelob. I think Mirkwood might be a center of mysterious shit. This wouldn't need to be alternate history.

2) Mid 2nd age, shortly after Sauron and the One Ring have been revealed. This is alternate history -- but since the details of this first war against Sauron are few, there's a lot of room for varied material. This would probably be high power with talented Numenoreans and Sindar elves as possible PCs. This wouldn't be near the end of the war, so taking out Sauron directly isn't on the table -- but taking out important allies and/or strongholds of his are.

3) Early in the 3rd age, shortly after the Great Plague -- hunting evil that has begun to spread across the land. Again, alternate history but there are few details about these struggles. Sauron isn't even around directly, so again, taking him out isn't on the table. This would be a lower power level. It might be set in an unnamed nation of the North that has the potential to be within Sauron's influence later, but also might not be and would be part of the alliance against him in later centuries.

And technically, as a another option:

4) An actual alternate history of the War of the Ring, where there is a break from the Lord of the Rings story. The Fellowship falters and breaks, but others take up the struggle. This runs right up against what Steven Mitchell disliked -- but I thought I should mention it as a possibility.

---

Do the different options feel different for those open to roleplaying in Middle Earth, but maybe with some misgivings?

Point of clarification:  I said I'd never run a game in ME, for the reasons listed.  There are some circumstances where I might play in one, though it would never be my first choice (for those same reasons):  Of the ones you listed, #1, the 4th age, is the only one remotely palatable to me.  Note however, that I'm interested in some styles of play that simply don't happen at my table because the players aren't interested.  I can enjoy a lot as a player with friends, because I don't get many opportunities on that front.  But I would be "settling" for something.

I don't think I'd enjoy SW very much, either.

You never say never as a player.  I had a roommate in college that ran games in a style that would probably fit SW like a glove. If he'd had that system and run a jaunt throw Moria, I'd have probably had a blast.  He didn't do long games, though. None of the rest of us ran the way he did, but we enjoyed his games because they were a brief change of pace. 

Please ignore my aside and carry on. The conversation is interesting even though it's not something I'd do. 

Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 07:25:47 PM
1) Early 4th age, as elves are leaving, set on the edges of civilization where some of the really old things that the elves had kept in check are now coming loose. Stuff like the barrow wights, Old Man Willow, or Shelob. I think Mirkwood might be a center of mysterious shit. This wouldn't need to be alternate history.

Probably has the quickest ramp-up time of the four options: Create character. Fight monster. Travel. Repeat. But also could devolve into Monster of the Week, unless you have something larger going on. Sounds a lot like a Mirkwood Sandbox which isn't really grabbing me right now. 

Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 07:25:47 PM
2) Mid 2nd age, shortly after Sauron and the One Ring have been revealed. This is alternate history -- but since the details of this first war against Sauron are few, there's a lot of room for varied material. This would probably be high power with talented Numenoreans and Sindar elves as possible PCs. This wouldn't be near the end of the war, so taking out Sauron directly isn't on the table -- but taking out important allies and/or strongholds of his are.

Second Age brings a whole different level of PC Awesomeness to the table. Savage Worlds (with it's fast and furious pulp action) might be just the ticket for that. But it's a weird and subtle level of awesomeness, where Luthien tears into Morgoth with songs, and there are vampires and werewolves afoot. Not sure the SW magic is going to feel right.

Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 07:25:47 PM
3) Early in the 3rd age, shortly after the Great Plague -- hunting evil that has begun to spread across the land. Again, alternate history but there are few details about these struggles. Sauron isn't even around directly, so again, taking him out isn't on the table. This would be a lower power level. It might be set in an unnamed nation of the North that has the potential to be within Sauron's influence later, but also might not be and would be part of the alliance against him in later centuries.

Maybe like what the new edition of TOR is doing with it's "Ruins of the Lost Realm" campaign book? I like this one the best. 

Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 07:25:47 PM
4) An actual alternate history of the War of the Ring, where there is a break from the Lord of the Rings story. The Fellowship falters and breaks, but others take up the struggle. This runs right up against what Steven Mitchell disliked -- but I thought I should mention it as a possibility.

Torn on this one. On one hand, it would be epic to have a Rivendell scene where the principals are absent, and the PCs become the Fellowship. But it runs into all sorts of problems. Do they use OOC knowledge to avoid Moria and not trust Saruman? Why doesn't Gandalf go with them? (Because he is NOT going.) Or do you change those things to keep it a surprise? How much do you change before it goes off track?

I feel like The Hobbit created a very playable RPG setting. And then The Lord of the Rings got rid of that playable setting. The Hobbit is full of D&D-style random encounters. Fellowship of the Ring still has a bit of that, but ultimately everything is about The Story. The Necromancer of Mirkwood can't just be some random evil wizard, turns out it's Sauron. 

I think that's why playing in "Middle Earth style" (really, The Hobbit style) settings is much more popular than playing in Middle Earth. Tolkien's early world building presents a great model for play. LOTR not so much.

If I was going to do it, I'd want a The Hobbit-style sandbox, so probably Third Age within a few centuries of The Hobbit.

Quote from: S'mon on March 09, 2023, 01:53:08 AM
I feel like The Hobbit created a very playable RPG setting. And then The Lord of the Rings got rid of that playable setting. The Hobbit is full of D&D-style random encounters. Fellowship of the Ring still has a bit of that, but ultimately everything is about The Story. The Necromancer of Mirkwood can't just be some random evil wizard, turns out it's Sauron. 

I think that's why playing in "Middle Earth style" (really, The Hobbit style) settings is much more popular than playing in Middle Earth. Tolkien's early world building presents a great model for play. LOTR not so much.

If I was going to do it, I'd want a The Hobbit-style sandbox, so probably Third Age within a few centuries of The Hobbit.

Greetings!

Excellent observations, S'mon!

Of course, though, there is...I can't remember the right terms for it at the moment, but Tolkien wrote The Hobbit as a self-contained, stand-alone *Children's Book*. The Lord of the Rings on the other hand, was this giant project aimed at adults. *shrugs* I am of course a huge fan of Tolkien.

I vividly remember when I was in the 5th grade, in elementary school, I was entirely *Gobsmacked* and enthralled by two books--the first was a book my father gave to me, written I think, in the 1950's. Arthurian Legends or something, written for children. It was all the traditional Arthurian stories, for children, lightly illustrated. The second book, was The Hobbit.

It was also during this same period that I was introduced to Dungeons & Dragons, with the blueish softcover book with a dragon on it.

Perhaps not strangely, but The Hobbit I think fits absolutely in-line with the Arthurian Tales, Beowulf, Charlemagne, The Odyssey, and the like. At the same age, I also devoured Bulfinch's Mythology. That book also had many traditional mythical stories. Fantastic stuff!

Assed Note: Oh yeah, lots of things in The Hobbit were undefined by Tolkien. Lots and lots of unanswered questions, lots of unresolved topics. Or in general, also, just a lot of stuff and details that were presented, but also vague and mysterious. There was some kind of vague explanation provided, in the text or dialogue, sufficient for a children's story--but less so for the mind of an adult. Lord of the Rings, of course, goes along a much more adult pathway. I think that yes, indeed, it is those precise differences in literary texture--that make The Hobbit a stronger setting for a game campaign than The Lord of the Rings. It's dead early in the morning here where I am, and I'm just now getting some coffee. I hope I'm making sense!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Aglondir on March 08, 2023, 09:32:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 07:25:47 PM
1) Early 4th age, as elves are leaving, set on the edges of civilization where some of the really old things that the elves had kept in check are now coming loose. Stuff like the barrow wights, Old Man Willow, or Shelob. I think Mirkwood might be a center of mysterious shit. This wouldn't need to be alternate history.

Probably has the quickest ramp-up time of the four options: Create character. Fight monster. Travel. Repeat. But also could devolve into Monster of the Week, unless you have something larger going on. Sounds a lot like a Mirkwood Sandbox which isn't really grabbing me right now.

There'd probably be something of an arc where a number of monsters of the week eventually lead to a related big bad like Shelob. I wouldn't want to give it away, but I'd be tempted to have an ancient evil in the Old Forest in Tom Bombadil's old stomping grounds. Where in the Fourth Age Tom has seemingly left (or has he?).

Quote from: Aglondir on March 08, 2023, 09:32:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 07:25:47 PM
2) Mid 2nd age, shortly after Sauron and the One Ring have been revealed. This is alternate history -- but since the details of this first war against Sauron are few, there's a lot of room for varied material. This would probably be high power with talented Numenoreans and Sindar elves as possible PCs. This wouldn't be near the end of the war, so taking out Sauron directly isn't on the table -- but taking out important allies and/or strongholds of his are.

Second Age brings a whole different level of PC Awesomeness to the table. Savage Worlds (with it's fast and furious pulp action) might be just the ticket for that. But it's a weird and subtle level of awesomeness, where Luthien tears into Morgoth with songs, and there are vampires and werewolves afoot. Not sure the SW magic is going to feel right.

Yeah, I need to get a better handle on SW magic before suggesting how I might do it, but it's a vastly different model than D&D. I made an old page summarizing what I could tell about magic in Middle Earth.

https://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/magic/principles.html

Quote from: Aglondir on March 08, 2023, 09:32:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 07:25:47 PM
3) Early in the 3rd age, shortly after the Great Plague -- hunting evil that has begun to spread across the land. Again, alternate history but there are few details about these struggles. Sauron isn't even around directly, so again, taking him out isn't on the table. This would be a lower power level. It might be set in an unnamed nation of the North that has the potential to be within Sauron's influence later, but also might not be and would be part of the alliance against him in later centuries.

Maybe like what the new edition of TOR is doing with it's "Ruins of the Lost Realm" campaign book? I like this one the best.

Right now, I only know about "Ruins of the Lost Realm" from what I read here.

https://akhelas.com/2022/12/14/review-ruins-of-the-lost-realm/

https://techraptor.net/tabletop/reviews/ruins-of-lost-realm-review

It sounds mainly like sites to explore, while I was thinking of a more strategic game of scouting and fighting across the land rather than exploring old ruins. The center woudl be dealing with allies and minions of Sauron. Somewhere between Rhun in the east, Dale to the north, and the Brown Lands to the south - is all rather empty in Tolkien's map. There's room there for there to be major fighting based on Sauron's struggle that isn't a part of the canon but could be a reasonable projection.

Quote from: Aglondir on March 08, 2023, 09:32:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 07:25:47 PM
4) An actual alternate history of the War of the Ring, where there is a break from the Lord of the Rings story. The Fellowship falters and breaks, but others take up the struggle. This runs right up against what Steven Mitchell disliked -- but I thought I should mention it as a possibility.

Torn on this one. On one hand, it would be epic to have a Rivendell scene where the principals are absent, and the PCs become the Fellowship. But it runs into all sorts of problems. Do they use OOC knowledge to avoid Moria and not trust Saruman? Why doesn't Gandalf go with them? (Because he is NOT going.) Or do you change those things to keep it a surprise? How much do you change before it goes off track?

I think the best way to avoid OOC knowledge is to break shortly after the Fellowship passes through Moria. After they lose Gandalf, that's the likeliest time for the Fellowship to break short of when it canonically does break with Boromir's betrayal. At that point, Moria and Saruman are known, and Gandalf is out of the way. The biggest OOC knowledge then would be knowledge of Denethor. But a divergence point could change that.

For example - if Denethor learns of the plan, and sends a force to ambush the Fellowship. Or perhaps Faramir learns of the source of Denethor's madness, and goes to warn the Fellowship, but he is in peril and some of them die saving him. The end result being that Denethor's madness revealed, the Fellowship is broken,  and the PCs have to come up with a new plan.

I had an aborted campaign of if Frodo left the One Ring in Lothlorien. Here was my brief intro:

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/allshalllove/intro.html

The Mirkwood idea (#1) is my new favorite, especially if the lesser encounters are thematically linked to a final boss encounter, and hints are dropped along the way to build up a sense of mystery (or dread.)  To make it not a railroad, you could have multiple final bosses and multiple avenues leading to each, so the players don't feel like they've been forced into a determined outcome. However, the real issue is: Do you want the game to "feel like LOTR" or "feel like the Hobbit" or is it ok if it's just a fantasy adventure set in Middle Earth?   

That's a great synopsis of magic in LOTR. The problem with Tolkien's magic is that he was all over the place, with magic coming from spells, crafted items, nature, the Maia, innate abilities, etc. Reading through your summary makes me think I'd use Fate 2nd Edition (an underrated system that doesn't suffer the excesses of subsequent editions) but it would require some design work.

Your post-Moria idea is ideal. It's a logical point for the Fellowship to disintegrate, and a great way to make sure Gandalf is out of the picture. As you mention, there's some OOC knowledge risk with Denethor, and I'd add that Shelob is no longer a surprise. But I'd miss not going through Moria. I've often wanted to run Moria as a dungeon where the focus is on escaping as fast as possible rather than looting, ramping up the horror aspect.

So an update on this as a plan. I'd been waiting for the SWADE Fantasy Companion in print, because in general I prefer print. But then I just noticed this review from last year by Ocule:

https://www.therpgsite.com/reviews/savage-worlds-fantasy-companion-swade/

Based on this largely negative review, now I'm thinking that the Fantasy Companion sounds like something I might at best mine for ideas, but I'd only get it in PDF and not in print (especially at $75! for preorder).

Quote from: jhkim on March 29, 2023, 01:33:49 PM
So an update on this as a plan. I'd been waiting for the SWADE Fantasy Companion in print, because in general I prefer print. But then I just noticed this review from last year by Ocule:

https://www.therpgsite.com/reviews/savage-worlds-fantasy-companion-swade/

Based on this largely negative review, now I'm thinking that the Fantasy Companion sounds like something I might at best mine for ideas, but I'd only get it in PDF and not in print (especially at $75! for preorder).

  The $75 is for the book and all the card sets (36 archetypes, adventure card additions, power cards, and ally/adversary cards); just the book will set you back $45. But based on my reading of the PDF, it's not going to be terribly useful for a Middle-Earth game, being much more inclined to the "D&Dish" side of things.