Quote from: tenbones on March 20, 2025, 05:39:02 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 19, 2025, 04:18:08 AMThe only REAL way to let go is to run the game as a Clockmaker God. The players aren't would-be authors, you aren't a would-be author. Instead, you are allowing the world to create itself.

This is the way. Learning to run your games this way takes time. Everyone is arguing what "is a railroad" vs. "linear adventures" - but they're all moving goalposts because as a GM you end up falling into all of these relative traps learning through trial and error (and hopefully advice) which eventually, if you stick it out, end up running it like a Clockmaker.

Well, it takes a bit more time BEFORE the campaign starts. If you set things up properly before the campaign, and you have a good set of random generators at your disposal, you can manage to handle the "clockmaker god" role very easily in actual play.

I think the biggest advantage to sandbox play is that the GM is also engaged, surprised, and flexing their creativity.  It is one of the reasons that I gave up early on published adventures.  If I do have one, it is to be cannibalized for spare parts and inspiration more than running as is.

Quote from: zircher on March 22, 2025, 03:40:17 PMI think the biggest advantage to sandbox play is that the GM is also engaged, surprised, and flexing their creativity.  It is one of the reasons that I gave up early on published adventures.  If I do have one, it is to be cannibalized for spare parts and inspiration more than running as is.

Absolutely. I also use adventures mostly for inspiration and spare parts.

Quote from: zircher on March 22, 2025, 03:40:17 PMI think the biggest advantage to sandbox play is that the GM is also engaged, surprised, and flexing their creativity.  It is one of the reasons that I gave up early on published adventures.  If I do have one, it is to be cannibalized for spare parts and inspiration more than running as is.

Exactly. I have this theory that long-term GM's gravitate towards sandboxing because the role of GMing is largely thankless, but finding joy in GMing is tricky when there is no ready path to prepare noobs to do it. Most people start because no one else will do it. Being a player is always fun because of the unknown. Running sandbox gives it to the GM once they've done all their prep, wound it all up and then let it fly with the PC's doing whatever they want.

It's the peak moments of my campaigns where *I* don't know wtf is about to happen, my players don't know wtf is about to happen, but their PC's moving tectonic plates in the campaign that just can't be replicated in AP's and modules.

That is the dragon I chase as GM - and while it can be talked about, it needs to be experienced to fully understand. When you do experience it, there is no looking back. That's how it was for me decades ago... and here I am, still chasing it with wild abandon.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2025, 05:53:22 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 20, 2025, 05:39:02 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 19, 2025, 04:18:08 AMThe only REAL way to let go is to run the game as a Clockmaker God. The players aren't would-be authors, you aren't a would-be author. Instead, you are allowing the world to create itself.

This is the way. Learning to run your games this way takes time. Everyone is arguing what "is a railroad" vs. "linear adventures" - but they're all moving goalposts because as a GM you end up falling into all of these relative traps learning through trial and error (and hopefully advice) which eventually, if you stick it out, end up running it like a Clockmaker.

Well, it takes a bit more time BEFORE the campaign starts. If you set things up properly before the campaign, and you have a good set of random generators at your disposal, you can manage to handle the "clockmaker god" role very easily in actual play.

This is my experience most of the time time with sandbox play. You do need to do some heavy lifting before. And every so often you might have to during (if you are adding more stuff to the map for example or fleshing out a location on the map in greater detail). But for the most part they are like little self-sustaining ecosystems if you get it right and do it well.

One bit of advice I have: keep a master binder on hand for everything for a given sandbox. I made the mistake of parting with my master binder for Ogre Gate for a bit and it made running sandboxes a huge pain (all my locations were on files in folders on my computer and that is just way less fluid and organic than a binder where you can easily add whatever map you just made). If the binder is really big, I have found it useful to get a food tray and use that as a kind of podium to keep next to your chair (beats having it out on the table----just an easier way to access the information)

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on March 25, 2025, 04:19:19 PMOne bit of advice I have: keep a master binder on hand for everything for a given sandbox. I made the mistake of parting with my master binder for Ogre Gate for a bit and it made running sandboxes a huge pain (all my locations were on files in folders on my computer and that is just way less fluid and organic than a binder where you can easily add whatever map you just made). If the binder is really big, I have found it useful to get a food tray and use that as a kind of podium to keep next to your chair (beats having it out on the table----just an easier way to access the information)

The last few years, I've been riffing on the 1-page adventure idea, only adapted for sandbox notes.  Except, I do 2-page locations, because I tend to print front and back, and find 1 page sometimes a little constraining.  It's still an evolving target. Essentially I'm trying to organize all my notes on not just locations but also NPCs, organization, region overview, etc. in files that can print on 2 pages.  If nothing else, it makes inserting/replacing into the notebook so much easier.  My handwriting is too poor to depend on it for long-term notes--as in even I can't read it sometimes later. 

What I'm missing is a better index system for labeling, to replace simple page numbers.  If anyone has some experience with that, I'd love to hear it.  I do label the hexes on the maps and refer to them in the notes.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 25, 2025, 06:13:06 PMI do 2-page locations, because I tend to print front and back, and find 1 page sometimes a little constraining.  It's still an evolving target. Essentially I'm trying to organize all my notes on not just locations but also NPCs, organization, region overview, etc. in files that can print on 2 pages.

2 Pages is ideal for me, but I prefer spreads to front/back, so I can view the entire encounter at once without flipping pages.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 25, 2025, 06:13:06 PMIf nothing else, it makes inserting/replacing into the notebook so much easier.

But spreads don't help here, unless you includes lots of blank pages.

Quote from: Zalman on March 26, 2025, 07:56:24 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 25, 2025, 06:13:06 PMI do 2-page locations, because I tend to print front and back, and find 1 page sometimes a little constraining.  It's still an evolving target. Essentially I'm trying to organize all my notes on not just locations but also NPCs, organization, region overview, etc. in files that can print on 2 pages.

2 Pages is ideal for me, but I prefer spreads to front/back, so I can view the entire encounter at once without flipping pages.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 25, 2025, 06:13:06 PMIf nothing else, it makes inserting/replacing into the notebook so much easier.

But spreads don't help here, unless you includes lots of blank pages.

Yeah.  I've gotten into the habit of certain pages I take out while using them while others I leave in.  The ones I leave in tend to be things that I reuse.  So it makes sense to make them a spread.  Though more than likely I'll try to get them down to 1-page sections anyway, so that I can slip them into a sleeve.  I have a bigger issue misplacing things or too much page flipping while running.  So a front/back adventure means that I only need to keep track of that 1 sheet.  I'll have it, my note pad, and maybe a map in 1 stack, that I don't mess with (ideally), and that way I can always get back to it rapidly.  Seems to matter more in that case than having the whole thing in front of me at once.  Which all goes to show this is very personal to the GM. 

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on March 25, 2025, 04:19:19 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 21, 2025, 05:53:22 PM

Quote from: tenbones on March 20, 2025, 05:39:02 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 19, 2025, 04:18:08 AMThe only REAL way to let go is to run the game as a Clockmaker God. The players aren't would-be authors, you aren't a would-be author. Instead, you are allowing the world to create itself.

This is the way. Learning to run your games this way takes time. Everyone is arguing what "is a railroad" vs. "linear adventures" - but they're all moving goalposts because as a GM you end up falling into all of these relative traps learning through trial and error (and hopefully advice) which eventually, if you stick it out, end up running it like a Clockmaker.

Well, it takes a bit more time BEFORE the campaign starts. If you set things up properly before the campaign, and you have a good set of random generators at your disposal, you can manage to handle the "clockmaker god" role very easily in actual play.

This is my experience most of the time time with sandbox play. You do need to do some heavy lifting before. And every so often you might have to during (if you are adding more stuff to the map for example or fleshing out a location on the map in greater detail). But for the most part they are like little self-sustaining ecosystems if you get it right and do it well.

One bit of advice I have: keep a master binder on hand for everything for a given sandbox. I made the mistake of parting with my master binder for Ogre Gate for a bit and it made running sandboxes a huge pain (all my locations were on files in folders on my computer and that is just way less fluid and organic than a binder where you can easily add whatever map you just made). If the binder is really big, I have found it useful to get a food tray and use that as a kind of podium to keep next to your chair (beats having it out on the table----just an easier way to access the information)

Keeping good track of your campaign is very important advice.

Quote from: tenbones on March 25, 2025, 10:42:41 AM

Quote from: zircher on March 22, 2025, 03:40:17 PMI think the biggest advantage to sandbox play is that the GM is also engaged, surprised, and flexing their creativity.  It is one of the reasons that I gave up early on published adventures.  If I do have one, it is to be cannibalized for spare parts and inspiration more than running as is.

Exactly. I have this theory that long-term GM's gravitate towards sandboxing because the role of GMing is largely thankless,

Maybe I'm lucky, but most of the time my players have been polite, thanking me for DMing (and I thank them for showing up) and if I'm playing at someone's place, they host and provide the snackies.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 27, 2025, 10:25:48 AM

Quote from: tenbones on March 25, 2025, 10:42:41 AM

Quote from: zircher on March 22, 2025, 03:40:17 PMI think the biggest advantage to sandbox play is that the GM is also engaged, surprised, and flexing their creativity.  It is one of the reasons that I gave up early on published adventures.  If I do have one, it is to be cannibalized for spare parts and inspiration more than running as is.

Exactly. I have this theory that long-term GM's gravitate towards sandboxing because the role of GMing is largely thankless,

Maybe I'm lucky, but most of the time my players have been polite, thanking me for DMing (and I thank them for showing up) and if I'm playing at someone's place, they host and provide the snackies.

My problem is I have three other players that say they want to GM, but they do this thing I tell them ***not*** to do - which is emulate me. Because they are beginners or casual GM's (they play with other groups) and so they only know what I do when they're at the table with me. They run modules and AP's, but when they've tried to run games with our group, they implode because they're shooting too high for their skillset.

I tell them jumping right into sandbox-GMing requires some forethought and a little elbow-grease, but they think I'm sitting down at the table and just spewing magic through pure improvisation. They have no idea how much I obsess about curating my sandboxes, and thinking of interesting ingredients to put in it, and making NPC's with machinations, and tying those machinations to "hooks" in the game for the PC's to discover (or not). I always tell them not to copy what they think I do, rather let me help them do some basic setup with a small sandbox, so they can see how it works.

A good gaming group *should* have multiple GM's - but the caveat for me is that I don't like dabblers. You gotta commit or stop wasting my time. There is the other issue, none of them *really* want to commit. Which is the big point. A couple of them have told me they feel intimidated GMing me and the rest of the group. Which is fucking **weird** to me. I would love to play - my single free-standing rule is anyone that wants to GM can take over at any point. But no one wants to ever stop doing my games to swim in what they know will be a smaller pond. They'll put up with it only because I gladly step out of the GM chair.

I think my situation is probably a lot different than others, but it is what it is. I have no problem GMing, I truly enjoy it for my own reasons. But I don't want to waste my time if someone is going to sit in the chair and half-ass it. I tell them go ahead and run an AP, or modules. I say it *relentlessly* so they can learn the basics. But without fail, they try to go off-script and get lost in the woods and they're all too prideful to ask me for help or suggestions.

And thus... I'm the forever GM. My crew in LA were a pack of opinionated animals. We had like 5 very active GM's in the group (and it was three groups of 17 players that interchanged players based on the campaign i.e. we're all in the same campaign in different parts of the gameworld), and we all pushed one another constantly. I'd love to have that here, but time commitment is an issue for how I play, and quality GM's are hard to find.

I'm completely happy being the GM.

Quote from: RPGPundit on Today at 06:05:37 AMI'm completely happy being the GM.

Somehow, I have to get you to be a player in one of my games.

Back in the day some of my players wanted to be GM. One managed 3 adventures spread out over 3 years, the other managed just one. It's not for everybody. I'm happy being the DM and to be honest my current 5E game got much more fun when I cut loose from the WotC tracks and we got Sandboxy.