Quote from: S'mon;257568In bizarro world.  That's a terrible way to run a sandbox.  a lightly sketched setting & map, a bunch pre-placed mini scenarios so there's stuff happening wherever the PCs go, and lots and lots of improvisation.  That's the way to do it.

As well as just being impractical only the very few have the time or the desire to take things down to that level of detail.

What I have is a stack of stock NPCs, locales, and other "bits" that I can combine to create a variety of situations. It helps that I emphasize the effect of culture. The makes the common elements of the bits I use plausible.

Quote from: estar;257577As well as just being impractical only the very few have the time or the desire to take things down to that level of detail.

I notice that with Necromancer's version of City State (CSIO), a highly detailed sandbox, there's so much detail, it's a bit intimidating.  Their Wilderlands box set is easier to use, but still awefully big.  I like your Points of Light as the individual sandboxes are small enough that they're easy to grok, which makes it eay to add in adventures etc.  Plus you included some simple encounter tables, which Nec failed to do with Wilderlands.  Encounter tables always make things far easier for me.  I find the best ones are just a single d6, d8, d12, d20 etc roll; 1 encounter per die pip.  There's no need to take the simulationist approach of modelling realistic encounter frequencies, just give me some cool ideas!  

Quote from: estar;257571My trick is immersion.

Hmm, neat trick.  I'll keep that in mind.  

I read your blog post and it was interesting, but it seemed more about strategic techniques to give your players a lot of options than a general bag of GM tricks to promote immersion.

Do you have any other of those more general immersion building techniques to share?

QuoteMy trick is immersion.
By using immersion, the contacts, connections, and resources tend to keep the range in which the character's wander limited. Not because of artificial walls but the simple fact that the players lack the desire to go far afield.

I just wanted to make sure I have this immersion idea correct.  You place the characters into a setting where the setting and its elements become the key components for the players, and those components limit the range of activity?  Or did I completely botch that definition up?  Can you give more examples like walkerp asked for?

Quote from: walkerp;257626Hmm, neat trick.  I'll keep that in mind.  

I read your blog post and it was interesting, but it seemed more about strategic techniques to give your players a lot of options than a general bag of GM tricks to promote immersion.

Do you have any other of those more general immersion building techniques to share?

There will be more blog posts on the subject as Sandbox Fantasy is a big part of how I run things.

The easiest way of using immersion is to have the players (and you) develop a background that is set in the general region that you detailed. You part is to encourage and give specific contacts, and details that have real in-game impact. For example the mage could have access to his mentor's library. The fighter trained at the Baron's estate and has limited use of the equipment there. And so on.

Also try to develop elements that drive the players, for example one of the character's family lost a manor that been in the family for several generations. These elements should result in tangible rewards. The manor has gold or silver income and has the services of few craftsmen attach.

If the character stray out of the region they will naturally lose access to these resources. In my experience they only leave for a damn good reason and even then usually it relates to something they are trying to do in the "home" region.

You can make these things as tight (a single city or village) or as broad as possible. Generally the broadest I go is about a fortnight's (two weeks) journey or about 200 to 250 miles.

Quote from: Venosha;257726I just wanted to make sure I have this immersion idea correct.  You place the characters into a setting where the setting and its elements become the key components for the players, and those components limit the range of activity?

Yes that basically it.

The elements of the setting are made as valuable as magic items. The PC treat them as such. Because these elements are (mostly) tied to the geography the PCs don't want to stray as far.

Understand this is not the ANSWER, just one of the many techniques I use to run my sandbox fantasy. One the reason that I started my blog was to organize my thoughts and observations on the subject.

Enjoy
Rob Conley

P.S. The background that I talked about. It should be no longer than one page. Here is an example I used for one of my campaigns.

http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/edward_background.html

Is that truly a sandbox game, though Rob? I understand entirely and use the same things myself. Just by introducing those elements you introduce things that can develop into over-arching plotlines though, surely? Plotlines tend to sweep the PCs along (not talking about railroads) and take on a life of their own. Suddenly, the choice isn't really there anymore. Only the illusion of it.

I'm over generalising, to be sure, but i hope you you get my meaning.

QuoteThe elements of the setting are made as valuable as magic items. The PC treat them as such. Because these elements are (mostly) tied to the geography the PCs don't want to stray as far.

Understand this is not the ANSWER, just one of the many techniques I use to run my sandbox fantasy. One the reason that I started my blog was to organize my thoughts and observations on the subject.

Thanks for the clarification. This is actually very helpful.  I have been developing a rather huge campaign but I think I have let it expand into more of a story arc, instead of a keeping it simple for gaming purposes.  Just filtering for ideas here on the board and this immersion path might be more of what I am looking for.  Thanks for the direction.

Quote from: One Horse Town;257782Is that truly a sandbox game, though Rob? I understand entirely and use the same things myself. Just by introducing those elements you introduce things that can develop into over-arching plotlines though, surely? Plotlines tend to sweep the PCs along (not talking about railroads) and take on a life of their own. Suddenly, the choice isn't really there anymore. Only the illusion of it.

The specific example of Edward the player came up with the general idea (I want to be member of a secret society) and together we hashed out the specifics. Which starts out by me listing three to four setting elements that fits being a member of a secret society.

In the thief one of the players went "I want to play a mage." So I came up with the idea of foggers which are illcit mages for hire that can fog up divination spells.

Another player said "You know I want to be a boss, I know I can't be one of the big guys, but somewhere in the middle rungs would be great."

Because I use GURPS, several times a player came in with a sheet already done and the player and I went through and picked the elements of the Majestic Wilderlands that would fit his advantages and disadvantages.

So right at the start of the game the sandbox nature of my game is in action.

Of course after the campaign starts the players are free to do whatever they want. There will be in-game consequences if they start ignoring their backgrounds. Depending on what happens it sometimes good and sometimes bad.

There is nothing wrong with the most common definition. It just I view them as only as a "subset" of the possibilities of sandbox play. I will say that the common definitions have the virtue of being easily distinguished from more common styles of GMing. Mine have a lot more elements as I had a lot years to try out different things to see what works and what doesn't.

Finally I am still organizing my thoughts which why I started a blog on the subject.

Interesting. Thanks!

Quote from: One Horse Town;257782Is that truly a sandbox game, though Rob? I understand entirely and use the same things myself. Just by introducing those elements you introduce things that can develop into over-arching plotlines though, surely? Plotlines tend to sweep the PCs along (not talking about railroads) and take on a life of their own. Suddenly, the choice isn't really there anymore. Only the illusion of it.

I don't see anything mutually exclusive between sandbox and plotlines, as long as the latter developped organically out of the PCs interaction with the environment and as long as they continue to have the agency to abandon the plotline at any time (knowing, though, that there will probably be repercussions for doing so).

Quote from: walkerp;257833I don't see anything mutually exclusive between sandbox and plotlines, as long as the latter developped organically out of the PCs interaction with the environment and as long as they continue to have the agency to abandon the plotline at any time (knowing, though, that there will probably be repercussions for doing so).

Agreed. It then loops back to Dip & Run doesn't it?

Quote from: estar;257776The easiest way of using immersion is to have the players (and you) develop a background that is set in the general region that you detailed. You part is to encourage and give specific contacts, and details that have real in-game impact. For example the mage could have access to his mentor's library. The fighter trained at the Baron's estate and has limited use of the equipment there. And so on.

Hmmm, this is making me rethink my approach to my own Aces & Eights game.  The idea is sandbox, with everything taking place in the boomtown of Lazarus.  But I had the players all just stepping off the stagecoach, arriving there for the first time.  This is the default campaign beginning for Aces & Eights.  I definitely won't have access to this strategy if I follow that technique.  I think I'll bring it up with them and see what they say.  The other advantage of them having backgrounds in the region is they do some of the idea work for you.

Have you run this kind of thing where the PCs are total outsiders and newbies to the region?

Quote from: estar;257776Also try to develop elements that drive the players, for example one of the character's family lost a manor that been in the family for several generations. These elements should result in tangible rewards. The manor has gold or silver income and has the services of few craftsmen attach.

Similar problem here, though this could be developed in play.  As the PCs establish themselves in town, elements connected to them can be emphasized with more detail and the possibility of awards.

Thanks for the response.  This is helpful stuff.

Quote from: One Horse Town;257835Agreed. It then loops back to Dip & Run doesn't it?

Yes, I'm starting to see your dilemma.  Freaking players!

Quote from: estar;257776The easiest way of using immersion is to have the players (and you) develop a background that is set in the general region that you detailed. You part is to encourage and give specific contacts, and details that have real in-game impact. For example the mage could have access to his mentor's library. The fighter trained at the Baron's estate and has limited use of the equipment there. And so on.

Yeah, I definitely do this.  The Fighters are Royal Knights, the Clerics are in good standing with their local church, the Wizard's mentor is the king's Magist or head of the College of Magic, the Thief is a Royal Scout or has good - useful - Thieves' Guild contacts, the Dwarven Fighter is a Champion of his people (or his mentor/father/etc is the Champion), etc.  The trick is to tie the PCs into significant setting elements while still giving plenty of space to adventure; NPCs should not be solving all the problems.

Quote from: One Horse Town;257782Is that truly a sandbox game, though Rob? I understand entirely and use the same things myself. Just by introducing those elements you introduce things that can develop into over-arching plotlines though, surely? Plotlines tend to sweep the PCs along (not talking about railroads) and take on a life of their own. Suddenly, the choice isn't really there anymore. Only the illusion of it.

I'm over generalising, to be sure, but i hope you you get my meaning.

1. Yes, it is truly a sandbox.
2. Yes, plots can develop.  Given time, plots should ALWAYS develop.  The important thing is that they're either player-driven plots, or the players can decide how to react to events - eg flee the invasion rather than do the stop-the-invasion adventure.  The GM does not say "OK, we are playing The Drow War adventure path now".
3. Yes, plotlines can sweep PCs along.  But in sandbox play it's the player's choice whether to be swept up.  There is no social contract that the PCs will play Adventure X, only that they will go looking for adventures.

Example: I ran a sandbox campaign years ago.  At one point the PCs thought the noble family hiring them wasn't paying enough for doing the adventure (clearing a haunted house) so they stole the nobles' treasury and became outlaws.  At the end of the campaign the PCS chose to return to the nobles' manor and help an army of hobgoblins storm it.  There were all kinds of plots and adventures, but they were player-led, not GM-led.