QuoteI'm a bit of a sandbox extremist and trust to the oracular power of the dice. If they want to throw ten ogres at a first level party, who am I to stop them? If they decide that the Staff of the Magi is in that horde being guarded by a pack of kobolds, then that's the way it is. I sketch out dungeons in very sparse detail, improvise on the fly, guided by the decisions of the party. And that's the way it should be.

But recently, one of my young players wants to go on a quest to seek out a Holy Avenger, him being a Paladin and all. And I'm torn; do I yield to his enthusiasm and do a Quest, complete with clues, guidelines and...(gulp)...a Story Path or do I respond to his earnest entreaties with a scowl and the words "If it comes up on a treasure roll then it's yours"? - Daddy Grognard blog

It's stuff like this that gives 'sandbox' settings a bad name.

Seriously, dude, let the kid's character find a sage who can point him in the direction of a holy avenger. No one will take your grognard card away from you for having a coherent setting.

Makes me wonder how this guy handles stuff like divination spells.

*sigh*

What happened to common sense, here?

And you can't have a sage throw some info at the players without making it storywank? I don't get it. It's like the dude took all the advice on sandboxing and completely misunderstood everything there was to understand in the first place.

It's a common enough mistake, unfortunately.  Letting the dice lay where they may is one thing, but if you can't reward a player actually engaging with your setting, you're kind of letting the tail wag the DM.

The comments on that link aren't that great either, by the way: they all basically vindicate the guy in his belief that there is a line somewhere where if you're not rolling the dice you stopped sandboxing.

This dude needs to be introduced to the concept of the world in motion, me thinks. He's mistaking the forest for the trees.

Most of the responses generally agree with you guys. A couple are out of step though.

I didn't get that at all Ben. From the skim I gave it most of them were giving variants to your advice.

(in my best Obi-Wan voice)

Envision your setting as a real place. Let it flow through your mind. And now think of where Holy Avengers could be found and who would know about it.

That what you do for your player.

Quote from: estar;539697Envision your setting as a real place. Let it flow through your mind. And now think of where Holy Avengers could be found and who would know about it.

Amen brother.

I think there should be a d% table to roll on when you ask someone where you can get a Holy Avenger.

I would say the very least the Player is not engaging in the game as a sandbox regardless if he is hankering for magical items that the character has never heard of and may or may not exist.

At least, it would totally blow suspension of disbelief for me if a player wandering around a village asking if anyone know's where they can get a +1 sword or an Eye of Vecna.

That said, I don't think any GM who cannot handle something like that has the right to the title "grognard". Old school roleplaying, sandbox or otherwise, was never just about the roll of the dice, it was about common sense judgements on behalf of the GM. Expecting the system itself to solve every problem and answer every question for a GM practically epitomizes a modern gaming style, where GMs are treated as players and the game author is king daddy-o.

Yeah, sandbox was never meant to override common sense.  Why there shouldn't be a staff of power in a kobold cave despite you rolling it that way?  Because is there was a staff of power in there, some other much more powerful monster would have also known about it and took it from the kobolds a long time ago.

Quote from: jadrax;539701I think there should be a d% table to roll on when you ask someone where you can get a Holy Avenger.

OK, story time.  About 2 years ago, I was running ToEE with my group and one of them was a paladin.  By the time we finished the campaign, he was level 8 or 9 and hinted that he was after a holy avenger.  Sure, no problem.  I can do that.

So how did he get it?  He had to first manage a way to get Blackrazor and Whelm out of White Plume Mountain without Karaptis taking it back, find his way to an ancient white dragon's lair where he would need to find a way to have the dragon breathe on Blackrazor and then immediately strike it with Whelm.  Then he would need to take the shards of the now Broken Blackrazor and have it reforged and blessed by the high priest of St. Cuthbert (his god).  Therefore, he would have completed the quest of taking something of great evil and turning it into something of great good, and would get his holy avenger.

Quote from: Acta Est Fabula;539703Yeah, sandbox was never meant to override common sense.  Why there shouldn't be a staff of power in a kobold cave despite you rolling it that way?  Because if there was a staff of power in there, some other much more powerful monster would have also known about it and took it from the kobolds a long time ago.

Unless they had just managed to run off with the thing. /plothook

(Also, "some other much more powerful monster would have also known about it and took it from the kobolds a long time ago" doesn't necessarily follow, powerful monsters don't know everything, but feel free to treat what you get as you will, of course)

Quote from: jadrax;539701I think there should be a d% table to roll on when you ask someone where you can get a Holy Avenger.

If you're asking a sage in 1e, there are several.  

No.
You guys are right, but it's more than that.

The damn world has to exist to be in motion.  The friggin' Holy Dipshit Avenger exists, and depending on the rest of the data of the campaign, should be findable.

Sandboxes are supposed to be believable and real because things are placed with logic.  The same reason that EL is a dissociated mechanic is the same reason this Ass is Doing it Wrong (and I almost never say that).  If the dice override logic (such as the ability of a Sage knowing of historical Swords, or KNighthoods that had them, or of powerful mages of yore that made them), or the need to let the dice run the game overrides in-game logic, excuse me, then it is less of a proper sandbox, not more.

Quote from: estar;539697Envision your setting as a real place. Let it flow through your mind. And now think of where Holy Avengers could be found and who would know about it.

Quote from: LordVreeg;539713The damn world has to exist to be in motion.  The friggin' Holy Dipshit Avenger exists, and depending on the rest of the data of the campaign, should be findable.

This. This is what I mean too.